Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Ethanol unloading exposure protection

[John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum]

Craig - Great summary!

Bruce has a valid point.  Ben make sure you are not overstepping your
obligations and make sure you are being compensated fairly for this work
and the associated liability.

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
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On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 9:20 AM Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Ben,
>
> Since we don’t' have a drawing or layout of what is where, there's going
> to be a lot of speculation and possibly misdirection when it comes to
> suggestions.  So you'll have to sort through it all and find the applicable
> stuff.
>
>
>
> NFPA 80A provides direction on exposure protection requirements for the
> facility but refers you back to NFPA 13 for actual exposure protection
> design.
>
> 2019 NFPA 13, Chapter 8.7 deals with exposure fires.  It provides all the
> data you are seeking on design, sprinkler options, flow rates, pressures,
> etc.
>
> Typically the system I've designed for these types of applications have
> been deluge systems using listed discharge nozzles, not regular
> sprinklers.  We have used dry pilot actuation as well as other types of
> detection such as UV/IR, optical flame detection and even Detect-O-Wire
> (heat tape) for actuation based on the specific installation to trigger the
> systems.
>
> Foam for exposure protection is a wrong application.  Depending on what it
> looks like, foam is often used If you were protecting the unloading station.
>
> FM Data Sheet 7-38 provides information on Ethanol related installations.
>
>
>
>
> If I was tasked with this, here's what I'd be asking and have to know:
>
> I'd first be looking at what is required by code.  What type of unloading
> station are we talking about?  Rail car, tanker trailer???  Covered or
> open?  What kind of volume of fuel?   The reason for knowing this is that
> even if it were not part of my scope of work, if the unloading station is
> not adequately protected, it raises the severity level I'm going to use for
> my exposure protection scheme.
>
> Is the unloading station provided with secondary containment to hold any
> spills?  Is there a fire suppression system in the unloading area to handle
> a pool fire or truck/rail equipment fire?
>
> What is the distance between this unloading station and the exposed
> building you're trying to protect?
>
> What is the exposed building, office, warehouse, process bldg. ??
> Fully sprinklered or not?
>
> Are they properly separated in compliance with the applicable codes?
>
> If they are not, has the local AHJ said anything about the situation? Have
> any site or architectural or other plans been reviewed yet?
>
> Is there a difference in the height of the exposed bldg. and the unloading
> station?  Which one is higher?
>
>
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 |
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sprinklerforum 
> > On Behalf Of Ben Young via Sprinklerforum
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 1:59 PM
> > To: 321 via Sprinklerforum 
> > Cc: Ben Young 
> > Subject: Ethanol unloading exposure protection
> >
> > Does anyone know where I can find some criteria (preferably in FM
> > Global data sheets) on how to provide exposure protection on the
> > exterior of a building wall  using dry sidewall heads?
> >
> > I have an insurance company telling me to do this but they didn't give
> > me a basis of design.
> >
> >
> > Trying to stay away from foam since to my knowledge there are no dry
> > sidewalls listed for discharge devices and I don't want to deal with
> > containment.
> >
>
> 
>
> NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged
> information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
> viewing, copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by
> unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message
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> 

RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Ethanol unloading exposure protection

[Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum]

Ben,

Since we don’t' have a drawing or layout of what is where, there's going to be 
a lot of speculation and possibly misdirection when it comes to suggestions.  
So you'll have to sort through it all and find the applicable stuff.



NFPA 80A provides direction on exposure protection requirements for the 
facility but refers you back to NFPA 13 for actual exposure protection design.

2019 NFPA 13, Chapter 8.7 deals with exposure fires.  It provides all the data 
you are seeking on design, sprinkler options, flow rates, pressures, etc.

Typically the system I've designed for these types of applications have been 
deluge systems using listed discharge nozzles, not regular sprinklers.  We have 
used dry pilot actuation as well as other types of detection such as UV/IR, 
optical flame detection and even Detect-O-Wire (heat tape) for actuation based 
on the specific installation to trigger the systems.

Foam for exposure protection is a wrong application.  Depending on what it 
looks like, foam is often used If you were protecting the unloading station.

FM Data Sheet 7-38 provides information on Ethanol related installations.




If I was tasked with this, here's what I'd be asking and have to know:

I'd first be looking at what is required by code.  What type of unloading 
station are we talking about?  Rail car, tanker trailer???  Covered or open?  
What kind of volume of fuel?   The reason for knowing this is that even if it 
were not part of my scope of work, if the unloading station is not adequately 
protected, it raises the severity level I'm going to use for my exposure 
protection scheme.

Is the unloading station provided with secondary containment to hold any 
spills?  Is there a fire suppression system in the unloading area to handle a 
pool fire or truck/rail equipment fire?

What is the distance between this unloading station and the exposed building 
you're trying to protect?

What is the exposed building, office, warehouse, process bldg. ??  Fully 
sprinklered or not?

Are they properly separated in compliance with the applicable codes?

If they are not, has the local AHJ said anything about the situation? Have any 
site or architectural or other plans been reviewed yet?

Is there a difference in the height of the exposed bldg. and the unloading 
station?  Which one is higher?


Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum 
> On Behalf Of Ben Young via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2020 1:59 PM
> To: 321 via Sprinklerforum 
> Cc: Ben Young 
> Subject: Ethanol unloading exposure protection
>
> Does anyone know where I can find some criteria (preferably in FM
> Global data sheets) on how to provide exposure protection on the
> exterior of a building wall  using dry sidewall heads?
>
> I have an insurance company telling me to do this but they didn't give
> me a basis of design.
>
>
> Trying to stay away from foam since to my knowledge there are no dry
> sidewalls listed for discharge devices and I don't want to deal with
> containment.
>



NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information 
that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or 
distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is 
strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify 
us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
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