[Sprinklerforum] Re: Multiple sprinkler spacings

[Raymond Delling]

Still exceeds the 130sqft.

You will still have to have enough pressure to throw the 7 feet, to do so it 
would be 14x10?

The only exception to the rule that I am aware of is for ESFRs and that is only 
allowed due to obstructions. 10’,11’,9’,10,10,11’,9’…..)






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Raymond Delling Director of Pre-Construction / Chief Estimator
ALLIED FIRE PROTECTION
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From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2024 4:57 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Multiple sprinkler spacings

I am working on a project which is a retail store being renovated for a new 
tenant. The previous retail tenant had been in the space for at least 20 years. 
The existing sprinklers below the ceiling (to remain) are spaced at 10 ft in 
one direction and alternate 10 ft and 14 ft (10-14-10-14…) in the other. I made 
the comment that the sprinkler spacing exceeds the 130 max requirement of NFPA 
13 and it needs to be modified. The architect (and his “value engineer”) 
decided that 1/2 the distance on one side is 7 ft and on the other side is 5 
ft, which equals 12, times 10 ft in the other direction equals 120 sqft and all 
is fine. The Fire Marshal is kind of buys into it because he is new and his 
department blew it 20 years ago. Unfortunately 13 doesn’t address their being 
to possibility of different spacings between sprinklers (such as ‘maximum’ 
distance between sprinklers when determining S and L). Any thoughts, ideas or 
references I am missing as I walk into this battle?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Multiple sprinkler spacings

[s.f...@yahoo.com]

See NFPA 2022 9.5.2.1.1 (2)  It states that the coverage area is defined by 
determining the perpendicular distance to the branch lines on either side, then 
using the larger of twice the distance to calculate the coverage area.  So the 
14' dimension is the one that must be used.
Sarah FifiOasis Fire Protection

   On Thursday, March 21, 2024 at 09:44:27 PM CDT, Fpdcdesign 
 wrote:  
 
 I am working on a project which is a retail store being renovated for a new 
tenant. The previous retail tenant had been in the space for at least 20 years. 
The existing sprinklers below the ceiling (to remain) are spaced at 10 ft in 
one direction and alternate 10 ft and 14 ft (10-14-10-14…) in the other. I made 
the comment that the sprinkler spacing exceeds the 130 max requirement of NFPA 
13 and it needs to be modified. The architect (and his “value engineer”) 
decided that 1/2 the distance on one side is 7 ft and on the other side is 5 
ft, which equals 12, times 10 ft in the other direction equals 120 sqft and all 
is fine. The Fire Marshal is kind of buys into it because he is new and his 
department blew it 20 years ago. Unfortunately 13 doesn’t address their being 
to possibility of different spacings between sprinklers (such as ‘maximum’ 
distance between sprinklers when determining S and L). Any thoughts, ideas or 
references I am missing as I walk into this battle?
Todd G Williams, PEFire Protection Design/ConsultingStonington, CT860-535-2080 
(ofc)860-554-7054  (fax)860-608-4559 (cell)
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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Multiple sprinkler spacings

[Dewayne Martinez]

I think Todd is right too.  No different than finding the spacing of a head 
next to the wall.  Use the greater distance of either 2x the distance of the 
head off the wall or the spacing between that head and the next head in the 
line.

Thank you,

Dewayne Martinez
Fire Protection Design Manager

TOTAL Mechanical
Building Integrity

W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072
dmarti...@total-mechanical.com<mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com>
Ph:  262-522-7110
Cell: 414-406-5208
http://www.total-mechanical.com/

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From: John Denhardt 
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2024 6:15 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Multiple sprinkler spacings

Todd - I'm with you.  I was taught each sprinkler has to be individually 
checked and verified.  We use the actual spacing per sprinkler for hydraulic 
calculation purposes,

The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal interpretation 
in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects. This is 
provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no liability for this 
opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be considered the official 
position of the AFSA, and/or NFPA or its technical committees.AFSA cannot 
provide design or consulting engineering services, and this opinion should 
therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as such.

Thanks,
John

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John August Denhardt, PE
Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services
American Fire Sprinkler Association
m: p:
301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w:
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On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 4:58 PM Fpdcdesign 
mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I am working on a project which is a retail store being renovated for a new 
tenant. The previous retail tenant had been in the space for at least 20 years. 
The existing sprinklers below the ceiling (to remain) are spaced at 10 ft in 
one direction and alternate 10 ft and 14 ft (10-14-10-14…) in the other. I made 
the comment that the sprinkler spacing exceeds the 130 max requirement of NFPA 
13 and it needs to be modified. The architect (and his “value engineer”) 
decided that 1/2 the distance on one side is 7 ft and on the other side is 5 
ft, which equals 12, times 10 ft in the other direction equals 120 sqft and all 
is fine. The Fire Marshal is kind of buys into it because he is new and his 
department blew it 20 years ago. Unfortunately 13 doesn’t address their being 
to possibility of different spacings between sprinklers (such as ‘maximum’ 
distance between sprinklers when determining S and L). Any thoughts, ideas or 
references I am missing as I walk into this battle?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Multiple sprinkler spacings

[John Denhardt]

Todd - I'm with you.  I was taught each sprinkler has to be
individually checked and verified.  We use the actual spacing per sprinkler
for hydraulic calculation purposes,

*The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal
interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee
Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no
liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be
considered the official position of the **AFSA, and/or NFPA or its
technical committees.**AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering
services, and this opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied
upon, as such.*


Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
m: p: 301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
w: firesprinkler.org


*Treat Your Apprentices Like VIPs!*
AFSA’s Virtual Instruction Program (VIP) for Apprentices is training that
comes straight from our expert instructors. They lead the way to ensure
your men and women are trained, letting you focus on OJT. Click here
 to learn
more and enroll.


On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 4:58 PM Fpdcdesign  wrote:

> I am working on a project which is a retail store being renovated for a
> new tenant. The previous retail tenant had been in the space for at least
> 20 years. The existing sprinklers below the ceiling (to remain) are spaced
> at 10 ft in one direction and alternate 10 ft and 14 ft (10-14-10-14…) in
> the other. I made the comment that the sprinkler spacing exceeds the 130
> max requirement of NFPA 13 and it needs to be modified. The architect (and
> his “value engineer”) decided that 1/2 the distance on one side is 7 ft and
> on the other side is 5 ft, which equals 12, times 10 ft in the other
> direction equals 120 sqft and all is fine. The Fire Marshal is kind of buys
> into it because he is new and his department blew it 20 years ago.
> Unfortunately 13 doesn’t address their being to possibility of different
> spacings between sprinklers (such as ‘maximum’ distance between sprinklers
> when determining S and L). Any thoughts, ideas or references I am missing
> as I walk into this battle?
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> 860-554-7054  (fax)
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
> _
> SprinklerForum mailing list:
> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org

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