RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
The pumps are listed by UL per an approved, ISO registered process. The mfr wont guarantee a new pump to perform up to and including the safety margin. You are proposing a performance based design, using the safety margin. If this is not an accepted design method in new pump installations, then it is likely not in retro fits either. The pump performance test could be used to measure any degradation in performance against the original curve. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Fletcher, Ron rfletc...@aerofire.com Date: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 9:58 am Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
NFPA 13 and 20 certainly DO allow performance-based designs under 1.5 Equivalency. So long as a test indicates a certain level of performance, and the AHJ approves the use of those results and the contractor is prudent enough to allow degradation of pump and water supply to the satisfaction of the AHJ, or AHJs (plural) since BCO, fire official, and insurance AHJ could all be involved, if it is APPROVED (found acceptable to the AHJs) then there is nothing preventing the use of more than the rating of a pump if that higher level of performance exists that I'm aware of. Written documentation by a qualified person must be submitted to the AHJ to gain approval. Versus the competitor who, in a proposal I just read, that their insurance carrier wouldn't let them do anything that wasn't in the code. Well, its in there, I just don't think they know what options are available to them, and I sure bet they don't subscribe to this Forum where they could learn. You get out of it what you put into it, and from the sound of their proposal, they don't put forth much extra effort. (sigh) sometimes its like shooting fish in a barrel, we got the job. Thanks, AFSA, for hosting the Forum. glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 11:42 AM To: Fletcher, Ron; sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM The pumps are listed by UL per an approved, ISO registered process. The mfr wont guarantee a new pump to perform up to and including the safety margin. You are proposing a performance based design, using the safety margin. If this is not an accepted design method in new pump installations, then it is likely not in retro fits either. The pump performance test could be used to measure any degradation in performance against the original curve. Forest Wilson Cherokee Fire Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Fletcher, Ron rfletc...@aerofire.com Date: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 9:58 am Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
Not doing pumps on a regular basis, I may be missing something but your required to compare the actual performance with the Certified pump curve. Now we always received the certified curve with the pump, and there were minor diviations from the Cat. Curves. So I would say that if your design meets the Certified curve performance your OK. Using any Actual performance above that curve would be iffy, as you'd have to prove it's not based upon a varied supply or other factor. Example: Static 50 Residual 20 @ 1750, but the engineer requires that you only use 45/2...@1575 for future supply degrading. You should exceed the design when you run your pump test, but if you try and use that, you'll negate the safety factor the ERO was building in. Thom -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 7:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
That was the beauty of the PLD's. We could size the pump to compensate for the mandatory de-rating of the supply and buy back the pressure without going over 175 psi. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM Not doing pumps on a regular basis, I may be missing something but your required to compare the actual performance with the Certified pump curve. Now we always received the certified curve with the pump, and there were minor diviations from the Cat. Curves. So I would say that if your design meets the Certified curve performance your OK. Using any Actual performance above that curve would be iffy, as you'd have to prove it's not based upon a varied supply or other factor. Example: Static 50 Residual 20 @ 1750, but the engineer requires that you only use 45/2...@1575 for future supply degrading. You should exceed the design when you run your pump test, but if you try and use that, you'll negate the safety factor the ERO was building in. Thom -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 7:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
It's not as easy to retrofit one on a Tier III as it first seemed.. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM That was the beauty of the PLD's. We could size the pump to compensate for the mandatory de-rating of the supply and buy back the pressure without going over 175 psi. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM Not doing pumps on a regular basis, I may be missing something but your required to compare the actual performance with the Certified pump curve. Now we always received the certified curve with the pump, and there were minor diviations from the Cat. Curves. So I would say that if your design meets the Certified curve performance your OK. Using any Actual performance above that curve would be iffy, as you'd have to prove it's not based upon a varied supply or other factor. Example: Static 50 Residual 20 @ 1750, but the engineer requires that you only use 45/2...@1575 for future supply degrading. You should exceed the design when you run your pump test, but if you try and use that, you'll negate the safety factor the ERO was building in. Thom -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 7:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
Can any of the pump manufacturers weigh in on this issue, and elaborate a little on the future availability of a PLD on a Tier III? Mark at Aero -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 9:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM It's not as easy to retrofit one on a Tier III as it first seemed.. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM That was the beauty of the PLD's. We could size the pump to compensate for the mandatory de-rating of the supply and buy back the pressure without going over 175 psi. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM Not doing pumps on a regular basis, I may be missing something but your required to compare the actual performance with the Certified pump curve. Now we always received the certified curve with the pump, and there were minor diviations from the Cat. Curves. So I would say that if your design meets the Certified curve performance your OK. Using any Actual performance above that curve would be iffy, as you'd have to prove it's not based upon a varied supply or other factor. Example: Static 50 Residual 20 @ 1750, but the engineer requires that you only use 45/2...@1575 for future supply degrading. You should exceed the design when you run your pump test, but if you try and use that, you'll negate the safety factor the ERO was building in. Thom -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 7:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
They're available now from Clarke. We're retrofitting one from 2009. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Phelps, Mark Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 1:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM Can any of the pump manufacturers weigh in on this issue, and elaborate a little on the future availability of a PLD on a Tier III? Mark at Aero -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 9:24 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM It's not as easy to retrofit one on a Tier III as it first seemed.. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM That was the beauty of the PLD's. We could size the pump to compensate for the mandatory de-rating of the supply and buy back the pressure without going over 175 psi. Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 8:57 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM Not doing pumps on a regular basis, I may be missing something but your required to compare the actual performance with the Certified pump curve. Now we always received the certified curve with the pump, and there were minor diviations from the Cat. Curves. So I would say that if your design meets the Certified curve performance your OK. Using any Actual performance above that curve would be iffy, as you'd have to prove it's not based upon a varied supply or other factor. Example: Static 50 Residual 20 @ 1750, but the engineer requires that you only use 45/2...@1575 for future supply degrading. You should exceed the design when you run your pump test, but if you try and use that, you'll negate the safety factor the ERO was building in. Thom -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fletcher, Ron Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 7:58 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher Aero Automatic Phoenix, AZ -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of cherokeefire...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
I meant to mention Tier 3's, not a lot of experience on the new ones as yet and nothing a year down the road and so on.. Should be interesting. From what I know, bench drivers are only used on HSC electrics and verticals with motors. I posted about this once. Look at the 'certified' curve and see if the new pump was tested with a shop driver (adjustable for BHP and speed) or the actual driver that came bolted to it. I haven't seen too many engine driven pump done at the factory with other than the designed engine. Sometimes, in expediting the pump, the factory will use one of their adjustable drives and pump from the break tank to get a curve done and out to the salesman, mostly motor driven units. I don't think I'm giving away any secrets here, they all do it. I will say on start-up of an engine driven unit, I always have the engine guy (or me) back off the governor and set it to PUMP nameplate requirements at 150%, tested like I posted before. It's the pump that sets the requirement and the driver is matched (sometimes not too well) to its needs. Hope this helps. Tom Can any of the pump manufacturers weigh in on this issue, and elaborate a little on the future availability of a PLD on a Tier III? Mark at Aero It's not as easy to retrofit one on a Tier III as it first seemed.. That was the beauty of the PLD's. We could size the pump to compensate for the mandatory de-rating of the supply and buy back the pressure without going over 175 psi. Ron Fletcher Not doing pumps on a regular basis, I may be missing something but your required to compare the actual performance with the Certified pump curve. Now we always received the certified curve with the pump, and there were minor diviations from the Cat. Curves. So I would say that if your design meets the Certified curve performance your OK. Using any Actual performance above that curve would be iffy, as you'd have to prove it's not based upon a varied supply or other factor. Example: Static 50 Residual 20 @ 1750, but the engineer requires that you only use 45/2...@1575 for future supply degrading. You should exceed the design when you run your pump test, but if you try and use that, you'll negate the safety factor the ERO was building in. Thom For a retrofit you wouldn't do a pump test and then use the results of the test for the calculations? Ron Fletcher I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Diesel Pump Engine RPM
I would contact the mfr. The listing is based on their data sheets i believe. So the calcs are based on the listed, approved pump. Forest Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone - Reply message - From: Tom Duross tduro...@comcast.net Date: Tue, Aug 31, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Diesel Pump Engine RPM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Short answer, yes I believe. Typically, engine speed required by the pump is at 150% and climbs according to the engine as you approach no load. Engines have an operating range and usually selected and governor set for the pump's requirements. I thought there might be a disclaimer in the most recent 20 regarding PLD controllers, but not to my knowledge. I know with non-PLD controllers, we always start at 150% and work our way back when testing engine-driven pumps as that helps cool-down. Plus, you can check RPM at first flow point. It's unfortunate affinity calculations are based upon constant speed (as I understand them), which never exists regardless of driver type. Sorry for seeming vague but the books beyond arms reach. TD NFPA #20, 2003, 11.2.4.1.1. Engines shall be provided with a governor capable of regulating engine speed within a range of 10 percent between shutoff and maximum load condition of the pump. Does this mean that a 1760 rpm rated engine running at 1860 rpm is acceptable? If a 1760 rpm rated pump when tested produced 1860 rpm (less than 10%) can the pressure produced at the higher rpm be used for the system calculations? In other words can the actual pump test be used for the system calc's or must we use the manufacturers data sheet regardless the test results? The pump is a PLD if that matters. Ron Fletcher ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
