RE: Transition from Outside to Inside
Of course the Annex is not the body as the TC already knows, and of course this is a pretty minor point, but fixing this, even as a change to the Annex, is not that complex. And why, if this is how the TC rationalizes their opinion, would they address this topic in relation to location of the piping with respect to the foundation? I generally use the one joint rule which would limit the amount of underground piping to less than one length and thereby limiting the height of the flange above the floor (just as is shown in A.10.6.5), but I have seen multiple pieces of ductile inside as well. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 4:47 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Transition from Outside to Inside I agree with Mark. Some folks (including the TC at the ROP meeting) seem to think it is acceptable based on 13:A.10.6.5 showing part of the underground pipe extending above the floor. They seem to have ignored that the Figure is ductile so doesn't address plastic and seem to have forgotten that the listing for underground plastic pipe applies to it being underground. As soon as it is exposed (whether in a trench or as a transition piece above the floor) it has to be acceptable as an above ground pipe. Needless to say, this issue will be addressed again at the ROC meeting. Roland On Jul 12, 2011, at 7:16 AM, Mark Sornsin wrote: Bill - I'm going to go on a limb a bit and suggest there is no maximum height. There's underground pipe (CH. 10), above-ground pipe (CH. 6) and the transition piece (23.1.6.1.1). It is implied that underground pipe is only underground. An aggressive AHJ or EOR may argue that the flange must be located at the floor level - so no underground pipe is above-ground and vice versa. I would suggest that it really only matters when dealing with plastic underground transitioning to above- ground pipe. No plastic pipe should be allowed above ground, so the transition should start below grade. I always spec' ductile iron into the building. This meets the intent of 23.1.6.1.1 as a transition. We normally shoot for the transition to the above- ground pipe to occur at 6 to 12 inches above the floor, but there is nothing in 13 that mandates any particular height. Mark A. Sornsin, PE| Fire Protection Engineer Ulteig Engineers, Inc.| Fargo, ND mark.sorn...@ulteig.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Transition from Outside to Inside
Bill - I'm going to go on a limb a bit and suggest there is no maximum height. There's underground pipe (CH. 10), above-ground pipe (CH. 6) and the transition piece (23.1.6.1.1). It is implied that underground pipe is only underground. An aggressive AHJ or EOR may argue that the flange must be located at the floor level - so no underground pipe is above-ground and vice versa. I would suggest that it really only matters when dealing with plastic underground transitioning to above-ground pipe. No plastic pipe should be allowed above ground, so the transition should start below grade. I always spec' ductile iron into the building. This meets the intent of 23.1.6.1.1 as a transition. We normally shoot for the transition to the above-ground pipe to occur at 6 to 12 inches above the floor, but there is nothing in 13 that mandates any particular height. Mark A. Sornsin, PE| Fire Protection Engineer Ulteig Engineers, Inc.| Fargo, ND mark.sorn...@ulteig.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 8:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Transition from Outside to Inside Something I thought I could find but couldn't. What is the maximum height for the floor flange to transition from the below ground pipe to the above ground pipe? (NFPA 13-2010, 6.3 23.1.6.1.1) Ductile and plastic are not listed in the Table 6.3.1.1. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Transition from Outside to Inside
At some point, the requirement for the flexible coupling kicks in. Have always understood 9.3.2.3 (1) - 2010 edition, previous ones numbered differently - to include the main system riser, so the flange or adaptive fitting would have to be configured to allow a flex coupling at no more than 24 above the floor. SL -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mark Sornsin Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 7:17 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Transition from Outside to Inside Bill - I'm going to go on a limb a bit and suggest there is no maximum height. There's underground pipe (CH. 10), above-ground pipe (CH. 6) and the transition piece (23.1.6.1.1). It is implied that underground pipe is only underground. An aggressive AHJ or EOR may argue that the flange must be located at the floor level - so no underground pipe is above-ground and vice versa. I would suggest that it really only matters when dealing with plastic underground transitioning to above-ground pipe. No plastic pipe should be allowed above ground, so the transition should start below grade. I always spec' ductile iron into the building. This meets the intent of 23.1.6.1.1 as a transition. We normally shoot for the transition to the above-ground pipe to occur at 6 to 12 inches above the floor, but there is nothing in 13 that mandates any particular height. Mark A. Sornsin, PE| Fire Protection Engineer Ulteig Engineers, Inc.| Fargo, ND mark.sorn...@ulteig.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 8:07 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Transition from Outside to Inside Something I thought I could find but couldn't. What is the maximum height for the floor flange to transition from the below ground pipe to the above ground pipe? (NFPA 13-2010, 6.3 23.1.6.1.1) Ductile and plastic are not listed in the Table 6.3.1.1. Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Transition from Outside to Inside
I agree with Mark. Some folks (including the TC at the ROP meeting) seem to think it is acceptable based on 13:A.10.6.5 showing part of the underground pipe extending above the floor. They seem to have ignored that the Figure is ductile so doesn't address plastic and seem to have forgotten that the listing for underground plastic pipe applies to it being underground. As soon as it is exposed (whether in a trench or as a transition piece above the floor) it has to be acceptable as an above ground pipe. Needless to say, this issue will be addressed again at the ROC meeting. Roland On Jul 12, 2011, at 7:16 AM, Mark Sornsin wrote: Bill - I'm going to go on a limb a bit and suggest there is no maximum height. There's underground pipe (CH. 10), above-ground pipe (CH. 6) and the transition piece (23.1.6.1.1). It is implied that underground pipe is only underground. An aggressive AHJ or EOR may argue that the flange must be located at the floor level - so no underground pipe is above-ground and vice versa. I would suggest that it really only matters when dealing with plastic underground transitioning to above- ground pipe. No plastic pipe should be allowed above ground, so the transition should start below grade. I always spec' ductile iron into the building. This meets the intent of 23.1.6.1.1 as a transition. We normally shoot for the transition to the above- ground pipe to occur at 6 to 12 inches above the floor, but there is nothing in 13 that mandates any particular height. Mark A. Sornsin, PE| Fire Protection Engineer Ulteig Engineers, Inc.| Fargo, ND mark.sorn...@ulteig.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
