Re: Listed Upright For MRI

[Fpdcdesign]

  
  

 It probably should be a glass bulb sprinkler. Not sure if the solder has any 
magnetic properties
  
  
  
 Todd G Williams, PE  
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  
Stonington, CT
  
860-535-2080 (ofc)
  
860-553-3553 (fax)
  
860-608-4559 (cell)
  
  
  
  

  
  
>   
> On Nov 13, 2018 at 9:38 AM,  mailto:sizzo...@gmail.com)>  
> wrote:
>   
>   
>   
>   
> There is no sprinkler listing requirement for an MRI room.Just need to 
> verify that all components of the sprinkler are made from non-ferrous 
> materials, which most sprinklers are as they are commonly made of copper 
> alloy (brass, bronze), Belleville washer is typically Be-Ni, etc.
>   
>   
>   
>   
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 9:28 AM Michael Hill   (mailto:mi...@phoenixfp.net)>  wrote:
>   
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >
> > I have a closet located in an MRI room that requires an upright sprinkler. 
> > I was asked if the upright sprinkler was listed for use in an MRI enclosure 
> > (like some concealed pendent sprinklers). I have no idea, but I don’t see 
> > why a standard spray brass upright couldn’t be used in this closet. It is a 
> > 3T unit. Am I missing something?
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> > Michael Hill
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> > Phoenix Fire Protection, Inc.
> >
> >   
> >
> > (301) 669-7066
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >
> >   
> >   
> >  ___
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> >   
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Listed Upright For MRI

[Michael Hill]

I have a closet located in an MRI room that requires an upright sprinkler. I 
was asked if the upright sprinkler was listed for use in an MRI enclosure (like 
some concealed pendent sprinklers). I have no idea, but I don't see why a 
standard spray brass upright couldn't be used in this closet. It is a 3T unit. 
Am I missing something?

Michael Hill

Phoenix Fire Protection, Inc.
(301) 669-7066

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RE: Listed Upright For MRI

[Matthew J Willis]

There are sprinklers listed specifically for those rooms.

May not be too invalid a request..?

But if everything is non-ferrous, you are still good. Unless your specs…..

R/
Matt

Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP
Design Manager /3-D Specialist
Rapid Fire Protection Inc.
1530 Samco Road
Rapid City, SD 57702
Office-605.348.2342
Direct Line-605.593.5063
Cell-605.391.2733
Fax:-605.348.0108

[cid:image001.png@01D159E8.1A3A2D00]

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 8:04 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Subject: Re: Listed Upright For MRI

It probably should be a glass bulb sprinkler. Not sure if the solder has any 
magnetic properties

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)



On Nov 13, 2018 at 9:38 AM, mailto:sizzo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
There is no sprinkler listing requirement for an MRI room.  Just need to verify 
that all components of the sprinkler are made from non-ferrous materials, which 
most sprinklers are as they are commonly made of copper alloy (brass, bronze), 
Belleville washer is typically Be-Ni, etc.
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 9:28 AM Michael Hill 
mailto:mi...@phoenixfp.net>> wrote:
I have a closet located in an MRI room that requires an upright sprinkler. I 
was asked if the upright sprinkler was listed for use in an MRI enclosure (like 
some concealed pendent sprinklers). I have no idea, but I don’t see why a 
standard spray brass upright couldn’t be used in this closet. It is a 3T unit. 
Am I missing something?

Michael Hill

Phoenix Fire Protection, Inc.
(301) 669-7066

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RE: Listed Upright For MRI

[Michael Hill]

I would have just sent a standard spray glass bulb upright and wouldn’t have 
thought twice about it. The question was asked by one of our junior designers 
(good for him for thinking about things like this) and now he has me second 
guessing what I have done in the past (damn him for thinking about things like 
this).

I asked one of the manufactures what their take on this is. Will post the 
response if/when I receive it.

Mike Hill

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matthew J Willis
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:07 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Listed Upright For MRI

There are sprinklers listed specifically for those rooms.

May not be too invalid a request..?

But if everything is non-ferrous, you are still good. Unless your specs…..

R/
Matt

Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP
Design Manager /3-D Specialist
Rapid Fire Protection Inc.
1530 Samco Road
Rapid City, SD 57702
Office-605.348.2342
Direct Line-605.593.5063
Cell-605.391.2733
Fax:-605.348.0108

[cid:image001.png@01D159E8.1A3A2D00]

From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 8:04 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: Re: Listed Upright For MRI

It probably should be a glass bulb sprinkler. Not sure if the solder has any 
magnetic properties

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-553-3553 (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)


On Nov 13, 2018 at 9:38 AM, mailto:sizzo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
There is no sprinkler listing requirement for an MRI room.  Just need to verify 
that all components of the sprinkler are made from non-ferrous materials, which 
most sprinklers are as they are commonly made of copper alloy (brass, bronze), 
Belleville washer is typically Be-Ni, etc.
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 9:28 AM Michael Hill 
mailto:mi...@phoenixfp.net>> wrote:
I have a closet located in an MRI room that requires an upright sprinkler. I 
was asked if the upright sprinkler was listed for use in an MRI enclosure (like 
some concealed pendent sprinklers). I have no idea, but I don’t see why a 
standard spray brass upright couldn’t be used in this closet. It is a 3T unit. 
Am I missing something?

Michael Hill

Phoenix Fire Protection, Inc.
(301) 669-7066

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Re: Listed Upright For MRI

[Salvatore Izzo]

There is no sprinkler listing requirement for an MRI room.  Just need to
verify that all components of the sprinkler are made from non-ferrous
materials, which most sprinklers are as they are commonly made of copper
alloy (brass, bronze), Belleville washer is typically Be-Ni, etc.
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 9:28 AM Michael Hill  wrote:

> I have a closet located in an MRI room that requires an upright sprinkler.
> I was asked if the upright sprinkler was listed for use in an MRI enclosure
> (like some concealed pendent sprinklers). I have no idea, but I don’t see
> why a standard spray brass upright couldn’t be used in this closet. It is a
> 3T unit. Am I missing something?
>
>
>
> Michael Hill
>
>
>
> Phoenix Fire Protection, Inc.
>
> (301) 669-7066
>
>
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RE: Listed Upright For MRI

[Matt Grise]

Have you tried contacting a manufacturer? Might be a question for the EOR who 
asked about it - do they have a recommended product?

Matt

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Michael Hill
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 8:29 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Listed Upright For MRI

I have a closet located in an MRI room that requires an upright sprinkler. I 
was asked if the upright sprinkler was listed for use in an MRI enclosure (like 
some concealed pendent sprinklers). I have no idea, but I don't see why a 
standard spray brass upright couldn't be used in this closet. It is a 3T unit. 
Am I missing something?

Michael Hill

Phoenix Fire Protection, Inc.
(301) 669-7066

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Re: Listed Upright For MRI

[Salvatore Izzo]

I don’t believe it’s actually a listing.  For example, the Reliable F4FR is
a concealed sprinkler designed for MRI rooms because the cup is made of
brass instead of steel.  It is just a UL Listing as a concealed QR
sprinkler.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:07 AM Matthew J Willis 
wrote:

> There are sprinklers listed specifically for those rooms.
>
>
>
> May not be too invalid a request..?
>
>
>
> But if everything is non-ferrous, you are still good. Unless your specs…..
>
>
>
> R/
>
> Matt
>
> 
>
>
>
> 
>
> *Matthew J. Willis, **CWBSP*
>
> *Design Manager /**3-D** Specialist*
>
> *Rapid Fire Protection Inc. *
>
> *1530 Samco Road
> *
>
> *Rapid City, SD 57702
> *
>
> *Office-605
> .348.2342*
>
> *Direct Line-605.593.5063*
>
> *Cell-605.391.2733*
>
> *Fax:-605.348.0108*
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image001.png@01D159E8.1A3A2D00]
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum  *On
> Behalf Of *Fpdcdesign
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 8:04 AM
> *To:* Sprinklerforum 
> *Subject:* Re: Listed Upright For MRI
>
>
>
> It probably should be a glass bulb sprinkler. Not sure if the solder has
> any magnetic properties
>
>
> Todd G Williams, PE
>
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
>
> Stonington, CT
>
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
>
> 860-553-3553 (fax)
>
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 13, 2018 at 9:38 AM, > wrote:
>
> There is no sprinkler listing requirement for an MRI room.  Just need to
> verify that all components of the sprinkler are made from non-ferrous
> materials, which most sprinklers are as they are commonly made of copper
> alloy (brass, bronze), Belleville washer is typically Be-Ni, etc.
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 9:28 AM Michael Hill  wrote:
>
> I have a closet located in an MRI room that requires an upright sprinkler.
> I was asked if the upright sprinkler was listed for use in an MRI enclosure
> (like some concealed pendent sprinklers). I have no idea, but I don’t see
> why a standard spray brass upright couldn’t be used in this closet. It is a
> 3T unit. Am I missing something?
>
>
>
> Michael Hill
>
>
>
> Phoenix Fire Protection, Inc.
>
> (301) 669-7066
>
>
>
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>
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Small room rule spacing with openings permitted

[Phillips, Mark]

Greetings everyone

Question
Can the small room rule be used if the area in question is separated by a 
lintel greater than 8" ?

My train of thought
3.3.22 Defines small room and uses the term "compartment"
3.3.6 Defines compartment as being permitted to having opening to adjoining 
spaces

Therefore
Small rooms as defined by 3.3.22 can have openings as defined in 3.3.6 to 
adjoining spaces and do not need to be enclosed with a door in order to take 
advantages of small room rule

I need some thoughts from the group Please
Thanks in advance


Mark Phillips
Vice President of Fire Protection, Kirlin Carolinas, LLC
t: 919-526-1584 | m: 919-610-0490
mphill...@jjkllc.com | https://kirlingroup.com
8000 Brownleigh Dr, Raleigh, NC 27617
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Pallet storage above overhead doors

[å . . . . . . .]

It is realized that warehouses generally are passively safe to workers
because of their relatively long smoke filling times.
But, fires in pallets, and even more extreme, plastic pallets, will
accelerate EXTREMELY fast.
FAST. LIKE. 60 to 180. SECONDS. FAST to top of storage after established
burning.
And because they are self-shielding, they are hard to extinguish...unless
they are thermoplastic, in which case these pallets melt and drip on and
burn other commodities.
Probably able-bodied workers could get out of the warehouse if a fire
occurred in these pallets, but that is a very rough guess, not knowing the
area intended for storage.
Workers with a late evacuation start, or located up on a mezzanine or floor
above grade, might have to double-time it, to get out.

-
Having said that
  1. How much area are we talking about?  If it is one door fitted for one
container truck / lorry with area <  200 sq. ft, then this is not SO bad,
but still consider the following below.
  If this area is bigger than 200 sq. ft  (Section 1.0, pp.5 line 5),
then read FM DS 8-9 carefully.

   2.  It appears your pallets are plastic, though you did not mention this
key fact, if indeed they are.
 FM DS 8-24 (Idle Pallet Protection) :Jan 2015,  Section 2.2.2.1
requires sprinkler protection per uncatroned, unexpanded plastic  if
pallets are plastic and not FM approved.
 It requires protection per DS 8-9
  3.  If these pallets are not on "typical racks" which provide vertical
stanchions at regular intervals, what is to prevent the tight packing and
elimination of flue spaces.
   If there is no way to insure flue spaces, then design as if
solid-piled storage..
  4.  Freeboard, or limiting the storage height substantially below the
ceiling, is NOT A DESIGN OPTION for FM guidelines.  Mr. Fire does not
listen to promises by owners.
   Too many instances where storage went UP TO THE CEILING.  So, FM
designs as if storage were up to a level 3 ft below the sprinklers.
  5.  Do not interpolate on storage height.  Go to next higher increment.

If it were my client, I would recommend painting a 1-yard/ 1-meter  high
horizontal RED stripe on the wall indicating maximum storage height allowed
by sprinkler design.  The top of this
RED stripe would be 1 yard/ 1 meter below the sprinkler deflectors.

Scot Deal
Excelsior Risk & Fire
gms:  +420 606 872 129  (GMT +1)




On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 9:19 PM James Crawford 
wrote:

> We are working on a project where the tenant wants to store pallets above
> the overhead loading doors to a height of 6’-0” in the loading dock area..
>
>
>
> The project will be using Factory Mutual data sheets, so I went to DS8-24
> Idle Pallet Storage and because they are on racks it send me to DS8-9 and
> 8-9 tells me to use rack storage for Un-cartoned, un-expanded Group “A”
> plastics Table 10.
>
>
>
> Based on the height of the building (40’-0”) I would need ESFR K25
> operating at 60psi to protect 6’-0” of wooden pallets, this seems a little
> excessive.
>
>
>
> So if we add a level of in-racks sprinkler heads and use Table 13 we would
> have 5’ to 10’ storage above the sprinkler and 10’ to 20’ clearance above
> the top of the pallets. So this tells me to use the 15’ storage from Table
> 10 or ESFR K25 @ 25psi plus 1 level of in-racks. Still seems a little
> excessive.
>
>
>
> Am I reading this right?
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
>
>
> James Crawford
>
> Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.
>
> Phone  604-888-0318
>
> Fax 604-888-4732
>
> Cel 604-790-0938
>
> Email  jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca
>
> Web www.phaserfire.ca
>
>  org
> 
>
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RE: Pallet storage above overhead doors

[Don Casey]

Look at heights measured from the top of the pallet storage rack.

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of James Crawford
Sent: 2018/11/13 3:19 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Pallet storage above overhead doors

We are working on a project where the tenant wants to store pallets above the 
overhead loading doors to a height of 6'-0" in the loading dock area..

The project will be using Factory Mutual data sheets, so I went to DS8-24 Idle 
Pallet Storage and because they are on racks it send me to DS8-9 and 8-9 tells 
me to use rack storage for Un-cartoned, un-expanded Group "A" plastics Table 10.

Based on the height of the building (40'-0") I would need ESFR K25 operating at 
60psi to protect 6'-0" of wooden pallets, this seems a little excessive.

So if we add a level of in-racks sprinkler heads and use Table 13 we would have 
5' to 10' storage above the sprinkler and 10' to 20' clearance above the top of 
the pallets. So this tells me to use the 15' storage from Table 10 or ESFR K25 
@ 25psi plus 1 level of in-racks. Still seems a little excessive.

Am I reading this right?


Thank you


James Crawford
Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.
Phone  604-888-0318
Fax 604-888-4732
Cel 604-790-0938
Email  jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca
Web www.phaserfire.ca

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RE: Small room rule spacing with openings permitted

[cliff]

Mark,



>From what I see, the 8” lintel is a ‘minimum’ depth.  Greater than 8” should 
>be an added bonus.  So there is no need for a door with a minimum 8” lintel.  
>I think you are thinking correctly on this.



Cliff Whitfield, SET

President



Fire Design, Inc.

184 Comfort Place

Burnsville, NC 28714

Ph: 828-284-4772







  cl...@fire-design.com

  www.fire-design.com



From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Phillips, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:26 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Small room rule spacing with openings permitted



Greetings everyone



Question

Can the small room rule be used if the area in question is separated by a 
lintel greater than 8" ?



My train of thought

3.3.22 Defines small room and uses the term "compartment"

3.3.6 Defines compartment as being permitted to having opening to adjoining 
spaces



Therefore

Small rooms as defined by 3.3.22 can have openings as defined in 3.3.6 to 
adjoining spaces and do not need to be enclosed with a door in order to take 
advantages of small room rule



I need some thoughts from the group Please

Thanks in advance











Mark​



Phillips



Vice President of Fire Protection

,

Kirlin Carolinas, LLC




t:   919-526-1584

 |

m:   919-610-0490



  mphill...@jjkllc.com

 |

  https://kirlingroup.com



8000 Brownleigh Dr

,

Raleigh

,

NC



27617




 


 


 




 

 

 





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Pallet storage above overhead doors

[James Crawford]

We are working on a project where the tenant wants to store pallets above
the overhead loading doors to a height of 6'-0" in the loading dock area..

 

The project will be using Factory Mutual data sheets, so I went to DS8-24
Idle Pallet Storage and because they are on racks it send me to DS8-9 and
8-9 tells me to use rack storage for Un-cartoned, un-expanded Group "A"
plastics Table 10.

 

Based on the height of the building (40'-0") I would need ESFR K25 operating
at 60psi to protect 6'-0" of wooden pallets, this seems a little excessive.

 

So if we add a level of in-racks sprinkler heads and use Table 13 we would
have 5' to 10' storage above the sprinkler and 10' to 20' clearance above
the top of the pallets. So this tells me to use the 15' storage from Table
10 or ESFR K25 @ 25psi plus 1 level of in-racks. Still seems a little
excessive.

 

Am I reading this right?

 

 

Thank you

 

 

James Crawford

Phaser Fire Protection Ltd.

Phone  604-888-0318

Fax 604-888-4732

Cel 604-790-0938

Email  jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca

Web www.phaserfire.ca

 

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