Re: [Standards] LAST CALL: XEP-0459 (XMPP Compliance Suites 2022)
* Georg Lukas [2021-09-29 18:32]: 1. As part of the work on XEP-0313, two XEPs got split out: - XEP-0441: Message Archive Management Preferences - XEP-0442: Pubsub Message Archive Management I think that at least XEP-0441 belongs into Advanced IM to keep the same functionality as before. Removing functionality from a Compliance Suite is problematic in itself? How so? And regarding XEP-0441 specifically, wasn't the functionality optional back when it was in XEP-0313? Anyway, in my experience, exposing the option to disable MAM can yield undesired results. End users might see no need for a server-side archive if they're not aware of how it helps with reliable message delivery and multi-device support. XEP-0441 itself says: After observing XEP-0313 usage in the wild, it became apparent that preferences were not often used, and can interfere with clients that use the archive for synchronization of messages received by the user while disconnected. Therefore it is not actively encouraged for an implementation/deployment to offer this functionality. [ https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0441.html#intro ] It seems weird to add this to a Compliance Suite while at the same time "not actively encouraging" implementations to offer this feature. Holger ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] LAST CALL: XEP-0459 (XMPP Compliance Suites 2022)
On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 4:33 PM Georg Lukas wrote: > 1. As part of the work on XEP-0313, two XEPs got split out: > > - XEP-0441: Message Archive Management Preferences > - XEP-0442: Pubsub Message Archive Management > > I think that at least XEP-0441 belongs into Advanced IM to keep the > same functionality as before. Agreed. > 2. As editor of earlier Compliance Suites, I used to review the > https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0459.html#future section to see which > XEPs have matured over the previous year and could be added into one of > the Suites. > > I might be slightly biased, but I would like to propose the following > three for Advanced IM Client and Server: > > - XEP-0379: Pre-Authenticated Roster Subscription I think we should try to move away from roster subscription as any form of prerequisite to start chatting. (And we already have in parts for example by making OMEMO nodes world readable) > - XEP-0401: Easy User Onboarding > - XEP-0445: Pre-Authenticated In-Band Registration Those XEPs are too opinionated on how on boarding should work and would prevent any client that for example targets corporate users and their LDAP user backends or client certificate logins from being a compliant XMPP client. Something phone number based like Quicksy.im would also be excluded. Looking at the server side a provider with a custom XMPP server that only offers paid accounts (where any invite based system doesn’t make sense) should be able to gain 'Advanced IM' status. > 3. It is also good to check https://xmpp.org/extensions/ for new > additions. From there, I suggest adding the following new XEPs to the > "Future Development" section: > > - XEP-0453: DOAP usage in XMPP > - XEP-0455: Service Outage Status +1 to include in future section. > - for E2EE: XEP-0450: Automatic Trust Management (ATM) I don’t think we have enough experience with this XEP to tell whether or not this is even a good idea. cheers Daniel ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
Re: [Standards] LAST CALL: XEP-0459 (XMPP Compliance Suites 2022)
Sorry this is so late, and thanks to Sonny for taking up the hard task of fighting this through the Council. * Jonas Schäfer [2021-09-07 16:04]: > This message constitutes notice of a Last Call for comments on > XEP-0459 [...] XMPP Compliance Suites 2022 1. As part of the work on XEP-0313, two XEPs got split out: - XEP-0441: Message Archive Management Preferences - XEP-0442: Pubsub Message Archive Management I think that at least XEP-0441 belongs into Advanced IM to keep the same functionality as before. 2. As editor of earlier Compliance Suites, I used to review the https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0459.html#future section to see which XEPs have matured over the previous year and could be added into one of the Suites. I might be slightly biased, but I would like to propose the following three for Advanced IM Client and Server: - XEP-0379: Pre-Authenticated Roster Subscription - XEP-0401: Easy User Onboarding - XEP-0445: Pre-Authenticated In-Band Registration In parallel, I'd like to ask The Editor about issuing Last Calls for 0379 and 0445, and Marc to step in and ask for LCing 0401. 3. It is also good to check https://xmpp.org/extensions/ for new additions. From there, I suggest adding the following new XEPs to the "Future Development" section: - XEP-0453: DOAP usage in XMPP - XEP-0455: Service Outage Status - for E2EE: XEP-0450: Automatic Trust Management (ATM) Kind regards, Georg ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
[Standards] Council Minutes 2021-09-29
https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2021-09-29#2021-09-29-c1e488e65b821a8b 1) Roll Call Present: Jonas, Zash, Georg, Daniel, Dave 2) Agenda Bashing None. 3) Editor’s Update None. 4) Items for Voting (or Discussion) 4a) Discussion of the Future of XEP-0313 Jonas wants to gather consensus on how to move forward with XEP-0313. On list, the proposal made by Zash [1] had some positive feedback, while the proposal by Kev [2] is simpler. Georg is still unhappy that it is completely unclear how a client would use such groupchat messages from just reading the spec. The PR only improves the spec enough that he wouldn't veto it, but it is not sufficient to make '313 a "good spec". Jonas points out that we should avoid '313 becoming another Message Archiving and proposes to merge [1] as-is unless someone complains loudly enough until the next merge window (Tuesday next week). 4b) Advance XEP-0280 to Stable With Georgs changes merged, we can finally vote on this. Georg is uncertain whether advancing '280 is a good idea, as that will stop the yearly LCs for it, which would take away some feeling of familiarity. He is immediately shut down and directed into the silent corner. Everyone is +1. 5) Pending Votes 5a) Advancement of XEP-0459 (Compliance Suites 2022) Main discussion points: 1. Promote the easy onboarding XEPs? (XEP-0379 et al.)? There is no immeditae consensus for that. Georg will post to the list into the '459 thread on that topic to gather more community feedback. 2. Dave points out that there are no criteria for what Advanced and Core means. Future documents should take that into account to make it clearer why a spec is (not) included in the specific level. He suggests that the Executive Director may want to contact the modernxmpp folks for input ;-). 6) Date of Next 2021-10-06 15:00Z (+1w, as usual) 7) AOB 7a) XEPs format The Chief Editor (Jonas) brings up that some people have noted that Markdown would be more accessible for doing XEP work (both editing and submitting) and wants to gather opinions (the wider community is also free to give input). dwd notes that metadata needs to stay machine readable, to which Jonas remarks that YAML metadata in Markdown is a thing. Daniel raises that we'd lose the support for XML entities, which are quite extensively used for cross-references between documents. No immediate solution for that is found. Zash remarks that editing messy XML is annoying, but if it was clean (consistent indentation and line width) it would be much nicer. Sam throws in that he once wrote a tool which reformats the documents accordingly. Georg wishes for nice word diffs. Finally, dwd points out that consistent link anchors for headings are important to have; those shouldn't break with new formats. As the meeting is running out of time, the topic is cut off here. The wider community is welcome to reply on that topic to this thread (change the subject line of the email if you do). 8) Ite Meeting Est Thanks everyone. [1]: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2021-September/038573.html [2]: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1104/files signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Standards mailing list Info: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards Unsubscribe: standards-unsubscr...@xmpp.org ___
