Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
Haha! This whole idea of J2EE where we have seperation of roles hasn't quite happened has it. The idea that there are business process programmers, database programmers, front end guys etc. In the end it's always the same person fulfilling all the roles. On the projects that I have been on in the past Graphic designers have been comissioned to make up the pages, which are done statically. Then the programmers have gone through the pains of making these pages dynamic. Regards IV from:Foong Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] date:Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:31:26 to: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Dear Struts supporter, There seems to be a real world problem with using Struts (well, not really Struts, but JSP Tag Libraries). It seems despite zero java coding on the JSP pages, those 'funny' tags are still not digest-able by average graphic designers. I mean, if they were to use Macromedia DreamWeaver, it would not've rendered the look and feel if the tags were something like this: - html:img page=/nice.gif altKey=Nice/ html:html locale=true /html:html html:link page=/another.jspbean:message key=another.title//html:link As opposed to the native standard HTML tags? I'm really not sure whether Macromedia or any other popular graphic artiste tool would render these Struts JSP pages properly. Anybody here has any experience solving this real world problem? Thanks. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=velloscouk-21placement=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
2002. november 25. 14:49 dátummal [EMAIL PROTECTED] ezt írtad: Haha! This whole idea of J2EE where we have seperation of roles hasn't quite happened has it. The idea that there are business process programmers, database programmers, front end guys etc. In the end it's always the same person fulfilling all the roles. Bad for you. And definitely would have been bad for our clients if I had designed the user interfaces. HAHA. Tib -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
C'mon guys. I've seen many great Struts website look feel (Definitelly generated by a graphic artist tool). I'm sure someone here has got some good experience to share? On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:49:14 + (GMT), [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Haha! This whole idea of J2EE where we have seperation of roles hasn't quite happened has it. The idea that there are business process programmers, database programmers, front end guys etc. In the end it's always the same person fulfilling all the roles. On the projects that I have been on in the past Graphic designers have been comissioned to make up the pages, which are done statically. Then the programmers have gone through the pains of making these pages dynamic. Regards IV from:Foong Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] date:Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:31:26 to: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Dear Struts supporter, There seems to be a real world problem with using Struts (well, not really Struts, but JSP Tag Libraries). It seems despite zero java coding on the JSP pages, those 'funny' tags are still not digest-able by average graphic designers. I mean, if they were to use Macromedia DreamWeaver, it would not've rendered the look and feel if the tags were something like this: - html:img page=/nice.gif altKey=Nice/ html:html locale=true /html:html html:link page=/another.jspbean:message key=another.title//html:link As opposed to the native standard HTML tags? I'm really not sure whether Macromedia or any other popular graphic artiste tool would render these Struts JSP pages properly. Anybody here has any experience solving this real world problem? Thanks. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=velloscouk-21placement=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Send your email first class -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
I don't think management of a development staff was a goal of J2EE :o) It is separation of process and/or skill sets that Struts/MVC provides for. Whether this happens or not is up to people, not software... yes? The method you refer to in your last paragraph is quite common and works quite well. If someone can do all of the tasks in a large Struts project, they are highly skilled, very experienced and are probably compensated quite well. Struts taglibs, like most all taglibs, are converted in the servlet and HTML equivalents are emitted as the browser only understands HTML. Perhaps this is the piece that designers/web developers struggle with. FWIW, graphic design and Java development generally use different parts of the human brain. It isn't to say they are mutually exclusive, just that it is difficult to switch back and forth between these skills. Brian - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 8:49 AM Subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Haha! This whole idea of J2EE where we have seperation of roles hasn't quite happened has it. The idea that there are business process programmers, database programmers, front end guys etc. In the end it's always the same person fulfilling all the roles. On the projects that I have been on in the past Graphic designers have been comissioned to make up the pages, which are done statically. Then the programmers have gone through the pains of making these pages dynamic. Regards IV -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
My last JSP job did not suffer that problem -- the graphics designer also did 100% of the JSP work. This on a post 1.0.2 nightly with integrated nested extensions (I had convinced the client on the benefits of the nested extension and they prefered integrated rather than in a separate package). The data architect did 100% of the database work (and some of the use case work -- he was quite good at high-level analysis). The programmers did 100% of the coding. The only aberration was me (the chief architect) -- not only did I do analysis through detailed design (using TogetherJ for class and sequence diagrams), I also did a fair amount of coding. Contrast that with my last .NET job: The graphics designers did strictly static HTML work. The converion to dynamic HTML, database work and coding was shared by everyone else (not much of a design to start with). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Haha! This whole idea of J2EE where we have seperation of roles hasn't quite happened has it. The idea that there are business process programmers, database programmers, front end guys etc. In the end it's always the same person fulfilling all the roles. On the projects that I have been on in the past Graphic designers have been comissioned to make up the pages, which are done statically. Then the programmers have gone through the pains of making these pages dynamic. Regards IV from:Foong Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] date:Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:31:26 to: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Dear Struts supporter, There seems to be a real world problem with using Struts (well, not really Struts, but JSP Tag Libraries). It seems despite zero java coding on the JSP pages, those 'funny' tags are still not digest-able by average graphic designers. I mean, if they were to use Macromedia DreamWeaver, it would not've rendered the look and feel if the tags were something like this: - html:img page=/nice.gif altKey=Nice/ html:html locale=true /html:html html:link page=/another.jspbean:message key=another.title//html:link As opposed to the native standard HTML tags? I'm really not sure whether Macromedia or any other popular graphic artiste tool would render these Struts JSP pages properly. Anybody here has any experience solving this real world problem? Thanks. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=velloscouk-21placement=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
It's up to your designers. I've had designers that throw their hands up at anything under the bonnet at all. Being a graphic designer myself, I don't mind cutting code at any level. :) The trick with anything like this is find the middle ground for your team. For some, it's just having them cut just the HTML face and working a process that allows flexibility with changes. But the fact is, you can pick the difference of professional design. You just have to ask yourself as to how much you want to pay for it. I wish you luck. Arron. On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 00:49, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Haha! This whole idea of J2EE where we have seperation of roles hasn't quite happened has it. The idea that there are business process programmers, database programmers, front end guys etc. In the end it's always the same person fulfilling all the roles. On the projects that I have been on in the past Graphic designers have been comissioned to make up the pages, which are done statically. Then the programmers have gone through the pains of making these pages dynamic. Regards IV from:Foong Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] date:Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:31:26 to: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Dear Struts supporter, There seems to be a real world problem with using Struts (well, not really Struts, but JSP Tag Libraries). It seems despite zero java coding on the JSP pages, those 'funny' tags are still not digest-able by average graphic designers. I mean, if they were to use Macromedia DreamWeaver, it would not've rendered the look and feel if the tags were something like this: - html:img page=/nice.gif altKey=Nice/ html:html locale=true /html:html html:link page=/another.jspbean:message key=another.title//html:link As opposed to the native standard HTML tags? I'm really not sure whether Macromedia or any other popular graphic artiste tool would render these Struts JSP pages properly. Anybody here has any experience solving this real world problem? Thanks. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=velloscouk-21placement=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
Our recently completed Struts-based system had very simple, low graphic screens and so we elected not to have a page designer. For a laugh, we slapped a background on the screen of one of my digital photos that I had taken of a recent sunset at a local state park (after fading it so people could still read the text on the page) and the users loved it and requested that it be left in. Who needs graphic designers? ;-) Simon - Simon P. Chappell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Java Programming Specialist www.landsend.com Lands' End, Inc. (608) 935-4526 -Original Message- From: Cyber.Zombie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 8:11 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? My last JSP job did not suffer that problem -- the graphics designer also did 100% of the JSP work. This on a post 1.0.2 nightly with integrated nested extensions (I had convinced the client on the benefits of the nested extension and they prefered integrated rather than in a separate package). The data architect did 100% of the database work (and some of the use case work -- he was quite good at high-level analysis). The programmers did 100% of the coding. The only aberration was me (the chief architect) -- not only did I do analysis through detailed design (using TogetherJ for class and sequence diagrams), I also did a fair amount of coding. Contrast that with my last .NET job: The graphics designers did strictly static HTML work. The converion to dynamic HTML, database work and coding was shared by everyone else (not much of a design to start with). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Haha! This whole idea of J2EE where we have seperation of roles hasn't quite happened has it. The idea that there are business process programmers, database programmers, front end guys etc. In the end it's always the same person fulfilling all the roles. On the projects that I have been on in the past Graphic designers have been comissioned to make up the pages, which are done statically. Then the programmers have gone through the pains of making these pages dynamic. Regards IV from:Foong Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] date:Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:31:26 to: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Dear Struts supporter, There seems to be a real world problem with using Struts (well, not really Struts, but JSP Tag Libraries). It seems despite zero java coding on the JSP pages, those 'funny' tags are still not digest-able by average graphic designers. I mean, if they were to use Macromedia DreamWeaver, it would not've rendered the look and feel if the tags were something like this: - html:img page=/nice.gif altKey=Nice/ html:html locale=true /html:html html:link page=/another.jspbean:message key=another.title//html:link As opposed to the native standard HTML tags? I'm really not sure whether Macromedia or any other popular graphic artiste tool would render these Struts JSP pages properly. Anybody here has any experience solving this real world problem? Thanks. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=vellosco uk-21placement=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user-[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:10:45 -0600, Cyber.Zombie [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: My last JSP job did not suffer that problem -- the graphics designer also did 100% of the JSP work. Thats sounds quite fair. But most of the real expert graphic artist here knows nuts about programming. What's more if you require them to code JSP + Servlet using an alien tool called IDE running/testing via Tomcat or whetever web container you used. This on a post 1.0.2 nightly with integrated nested extensions (I had convinced the client on the benefits of the nested extension and they prefered integrated rather than in a separate package). The data architect did 100% of the database work (and some of the use case work -- he was quite good at high-level analysis). The programmers did 100% of the coding. The only aberration was me (the chief architect) -- not only did I do analysis through detailed design (using TogetherJ for class and sequence diagrams), I also did a fair amount of coding. Contrast that with my last .NET job: The graphics designers did strictly static HTML work. The converion to dynamic HTML, database work and coding was shared by everyone else (not much of a design to start with). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Haha! This whole idea of J2EE where we have seperation of roles hasn't quite happened has it. The idea that there are business process programmers, database programmers, front end guys etc. In the end it's always the same person fulfilling all the roles. On the projects that I have been on in the past Graphic designers have been comissioned to make up the pages, which are done statically. Then the programmers have gone through the pains of making these pages dynamic. Regards IV from:Foong Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] date:Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:31:26 to: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Dear Struts supporter, There seems to be a real world problem with using Struts (well, not really Struts, but JSP Tag Libraries). It seems despite zero java coding on the JSP pages, those 'funny' tags are still not digest-able by average graphic designers. I mean, if they were to use Macromedia DreamWeaver, it would not've rendered the look and feel if the tags were something like this: - html:img page=/nice.gif altKey=Nice/ html:html locale=true /html:html html:link page=/another.jspbean:message key=another.title//html:link As opposed to the native standard HTML tags? I'm really not sure whether Macromedia or any other popular graphic artiste tool would render these Struts JSP pages properly. Anybody here has any experience solving this real world problem? Thanks. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=velloscouk-21placement=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
Have you looked at this? http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs/doc/ultradev4-doc/intro.html I don't have tried it, so if you do it please comment to group. -Mensaje original- De: Foong Tzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Enviado el: lunes, 25 de noviembre de 2002 14:31 Para: Struts Users Mailing List; Struts Users Mailing List Asunto: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Dear Struts supporter, There seems to be a real world problem with using Struts (well, not really Struts, but JSP Tag Libraries). It seems despite zero java coding on the JSP pages, those 'funny' tags are still not digest-able by average graphic designers. I mean, if they were to use Macromedia DreamWeaver, it would not've rendered the look and feel if the tags were something like this: - html:img page=/nice.gif altKey=Nice/ html:html locale=true /html:html html:link page=/another.jspbean:message key=another.title//html:link As opposed to the native standard HTML tags? I'm really not sure whether Macromedia or any other popular graphic artiste tool would render these Struts JSP pages properly. Anybody here has any experience solving this real world problem? Thanks. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
Hi Foong, After some headaches and some experience, i do the following: 1 - We (developers and programmers) write a clear requirement doc about a graphical interface, with all data that will be displayed, data type and this kind of stuff. 2 - Our designers develop all graphical interface based on that requirement doc, using their prefered IDE. Result will be pure HTML containing all data specified at requirement doc, but sure, these data will be like foo bar data. Just necessary data to show all interface features will be present. This process is a kind of pair programming (one graphical designer and one developer) to guarantee that all requirements will be achieved. 3 - We (developers and programmer), as we know HTML and as we developed together with designers, integrate all real code to get all data that has to be showed. Well, i don't know if this is the best approach. But it have been working here at my job for a long time. Tips? New experiences? I'd like to hear about them. Best regards, Daniel. --- Foong Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Struts supporter, There seems to be a real world problem with using Struts (well, not really Struts, but JSP Tag Libraries). It seems despite zero java coding on the JSP pages, those 'funny' tags are still not digest-able by average graphic designers. I mean, if they were to use Macromedia DreamWeaver, it would not've rendered the look and feel if the tags were something like this: - html:img page=/nice.gif altKey=Nice/ html:html locale=true /html:html html:link page=/another.jspbean:message key=another.title//html:link As opposed to the native standard HTML tags? I'm really not sure whether Macromedia or any other popular graphic artiste tool would render these Struts JSP pages properly. Anybody here has any experience solving this real world problem? Thanks. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
I don't think management of a development staff was a goal of J2EE :o) It is separation of process and/or skill sets that Struts/MVC provides for. Whether this happens or not is up to people, not software... yes? Indeed the seperation of the tasks in your project is up to the people involved, but I do believe it was a goal of the J2EE architecture to _help_ split these up. Where people who understand database access write your EJBs. Those who understand the business processes are writing the Session beans that contain business logic, and those that understand the user interactions are writing the JSPs. From my point of view you can try to assign people with particular parts of a project, but then managment will require things to be done now and a front end JSP programmer is suddenly coding database access. I've seen it. 10 odbc (yes odbc) connections from the index jsp. It was a nightmare! didn't even provide any useful information. The method you refer to in your last paragraph is quite common and works quite well. I've seen this a number of times now. It has worked very well for me too. We have often used a junior programmer here as a way for them to get into a project and understand more of what we are trying to achieve over all. If someone can do all of the tasks in a large Struts project, they are highly skilled, very experienced and are probably compensated quite well. I don't know about highly skilled, but I do end up having a hand in all the tasks in our current project. I definataly know I'm not compensated well for it though! Struts taglibs, like most all taglibs, are converted in the servlet and HTML equivalents are emitted as the browser only understands HTML. Perhaps this is the piece that designers/web developers struggle with. FWIW, graphic design and Java development generally use different parts of the human brain. It isn't to say they are mutually exclusive, just that it is difficult to switch back and forth between these skills. I'll use that next time someone complains about my nice plain white pages with a table in the middle ;) Brian Cheers IV - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 8:49 AM Subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Haha! This whole idea of J2EE where we have seperation of roles hasn't quite happened has it. The idea that there are business process programmers, database programmers, front end guys etc. In the end it's always the same person fulfilling all the roles. On the projects that I have been on in the past Graphic designers have been comissioned to make up the pages, which are done statically. Then the programmers have gone through the pains of making these pages dynamic. Regards IV -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=velloscouk-21placement=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? snip FWIW, graphic design and Java development generally use different parts of the human brain. It isn't to say they are mutually exclusive, just that it is difficult to switch back and forth between these skills. I'll use that next time someone complains about my nice plain white pages with a table in the middle ;) If Craig felt that was good enough for the struts-example, then my goodness, it's good enough for me! ;-) Simon - Simon P. Chappell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Java Programming Specialist www.landsend.com Lands' End, Inc. (608) 935-4526 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
This is an interesting thread, as we have a lot of challenges working
with our artists to create JSPs for use with Struts. Of course, I
would suggest that the issue has little to do with Struts, and a lot
to do with the state of JSP tools.
I think that JSP 2.0 and Java Server Faces (JSF) both offer a lot of
promise for better tools for non-programmers to make JSPs. JSP 2.0
allows us to totally prohibit scriptlets, which must be the biggest
challenge for GUI page editing tools. Also, JSF promises a lot of
standardized web UI widgets which, by virtue of being standardized,
will provide a more reliable area of concern for GUI editing apps to
support.
Considering a recent thread here about JSP vs. Velocity, it's worth
noting that one of the pros of Velocity is that its templating is a
little more transparent in browsers and GUI editing tools -- although
you still have the problem that loops and such don't ever look
anything like what you'll end up with.
With Mac OS X, we've been flirting with the idea of setting up our
designers with dev environments more like what our programmers have,
with a local application server (Tomcat) and an ant script so that
they can work on pages and see how their changes impact things, and
hopefully eventually understand most of what goes on in custom JSP
tags (Struts or other). But that will be a support challenge, so
we'll see when we finally make it happen...
Joe
--
--
* Joe Germuska{ [EMAIL PROTECTED] }
It's pitiful, sometimes, if they've got it bad. Their eyes get
glazed, they go white, their hands tremble As I watch them I
often feel that a dope peddler is a gentleman compared with the man
who sells records.
--Sam Goody, 1956
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THIS IS TRUE -- PEOPLE SHOULD PLAN FOR REALITY -- Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
This is exactly right, and application frameworks should begin working to this reality, rather than some ideal, which is what is happening now. This is really the way the whole http/tcp/ip protocol would suggest. The practice is mirrowing what makes sense. Micael At 01:49 PM 11/25/2002 +, you wrote: Haha! This whole idea of J2EE where we have seperation of roles hasn't quite happened has it. The idea that there are business process programmers, database programmers, front end guys etc. In the end it's always the same person fulfilling all the roles. On the projects that I have been on in the past Graphic designers have been comissioned to make up the pages, which are done statically. Then the programmers have gone through the pains of making these pages dynamic. Regards IV from:Foong Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] date:Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:31:26 to: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Dear Struts supporter, There seems to be a real world problem with using Struts (well, not really Struts, but JSP Tag Libraries). It seems despite zero java coding on the JSP pages, those 'funny' tags are still not digest-able by average graphic designers. I mean, if they were to use Macromedia DreamWeaver, it would not've rendered the look and feel if the tags were something like this: - html:img page=/nice.gif altKey=Nice/ html:html locale=true /html:html html:link page=/another.jspbean:message key=another.title//html:link As opposed to the native standard HTML tags? I'm really not sure whether Macromedia or any other popular graphic artiste tool would render these Struts JSP pages properly. Anybody here has any experience solving this real world problem? Thanks. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=velloscouk-21placement=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Foong Tzer wrote: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 05:31:26 -0800 From: Foong Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED], Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Dear Struts supporter, There seems to be a real world problem with using Struts (well, not really Struts, but JSP Tag Libraries). It seems despite zero java coding on the JSP pages, those 'funny' tags are still not digest-able by average graphic designers. I mean, if they were to use Macromedia DreamWeaver, it would not've rendered the look and feel if the tags were something like this: - html:img page=/nice.gif altKey=Nice/ html:html locale=true /html:html html:link page=/another.jspbean:message key=another.title//html:link As opposed to the native standard HTML tags? I'm really not sure whether Macromedia or any other popular graphic artiste tool would render these Struts JSP pages properly. Anybody here has any experience solving this real world problem? Thanks. Any help would be much appreciated. One feature of Ultradev that is very valuable here is called live data mode. In the case of JSP pages, it uses Tomcat behind the scenes to actually run the page, and the user is editing the GUI version of the page without necessarily understanding that this is happening. There's an Ultradev plugin available at Apache that enables GUI-based editing of any JSP custom tag library (not just Struts tags) at the Jakarta Taglibs project: http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs/doc/ultradev4-doc/intro.html That is worth checking out. Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Craig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Chappell, Simon P wrote: If Craig felt that was good enough for the struts-example, then my goodness, it's good enough for me! ;-) As I've said a couple of times, struts-example is pretty much my resume documenting my GUI design skills. Good thing I know a little Java to go with it. :-) Simon Craig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
The answer is below. That is really it. Let them build the GUI, then you massage it. That is the easiest way to go about things. If someone has something better, I don't know it. This way of doing things is pretty easy. The backend guy does not have to know the details of the gui, and vice versa. At 06:06 AM 11/25/2002 -0800, you wrote: C'mon guys. I've seen many great Struts website look feel (Definitelly generated by a graphic artist tool). I'm sure someone here has got some good experience to share? On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:49:14 + (GMT), [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Haha! This whole idea of J2EE where we have seperation of roles hasn't quite happened has it. The idea that there are business process programmers, database programmers, front end guys etc. In the end it's always the same person fulfilling all the roles. On the projects that I have been on in the past Graphic designers have been comissioned to make up the pages, which are done statically. Then the programmers have gone through the pains of making these pages dynamic. Regards IV from:Foong Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] date:Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:31:26 to: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Dear Struts supporter, There seems to be a real world problem with using Struts (well, not really Struts, but JSP Tag Libraries). It seems despite zero java coding on the JSP pages, those 'funny' tags are still not digest-able by average graphic designers. I mean, if they were to use Macromedia DreamWeaver, it would not've rendered the look and feel if the tags were something like this: - html:img page=/nice.gif altKey=Nice/ html:html locale=true /html:html html:link page=/another.jspbean:message key=another.title//html:link As opposed to the native standard HTML tags? I'm really not sure whether Macromedia or any other popular graphic artiste tool would render these Struts JSP pages properly. Anybody here has any experience solving this real world problem? Thanks. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=velloscouk-21placement=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Send your email first class -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse?
I'm a graphic designer. I use struts. I don't have a problem with tags. I cut the code for scriptlets. I don't understand what the big whoop is - it's not quantum mechanics. Here's what I do: Step 1 - Design UI. This is not done using Dreamweaver or anything, because we're talking about the design, not the implementation. Step 2 - Template for design is implemented as HTML. I hand-code because I'm insane, but a designer could happily use Dreamweaver or such crap here. Step 3 - HTML is cut into individual common elements (banner, menu, body, screen heading, action buttons). Master template JSPs are created. I use tiles for this but you could use whatever you like. Step 4 - The graphic design work is complete. The tiles and css styles control every graphic element. JSPs for the page body can now be create by any shmo. It's just like playing with lego. People responsible for JSP don't need to be HTML gurus OR Java gurus. If a tile ends up being used a lot, and is reusable across applications, we write a custom tag for it. The beautiful thig about this is the actual graphic design work can be done at any time during the course of development. We had a project last year where the client made us change it completely four times! Round here we have a dedicated UI guy (me) and about ten programmers, some who like to make their own screens, some who wait for me to do it, some who do a bit and then get me to finish it off. Once a project is well under way I often get relegated to a design police sort of role, where I review the application and TWEAK the few places where the design hasn't been implemented properly. Peace Todd Pierce -Original Message- From: micael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, 26 November 2002 5:04 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? The answer is below. That is really it. Let them build the GUI, then you massage it. That is the easiest way to go about things. If someone has something better, I don't know it. This way of doing things is pretty easy. The backend guy does not have to know the details of the gui, and vice versa. At 06:06 AM 11/25/2002 -0800, you wrote: C'mon guys. I've seen many great Struts website look feel (Definitelly generated by a graphic artist tool). I'm sure someone here has got some good experience to share? On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:49:14 + (GMT), [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Haha! This whole idea of J2EE where we have seperation of roles hasn't quite happened has it. The idea that there are business process programmers, database programmers, front end guys etc. In the end it's always the same person fulfilling all the roles. On the projects that I have been on in the past Graphic designers have been comissioned to make up the pages, which are done statically. Then the programmers have gone through the pains of making these pages dynamic. Regards IV from:Foong Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] date:Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:31:26 to: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: Struts: a Graphic Artist blessing or curse? Dear Struts supporter, There seems to be a real world problem with using Struts (well, not really Struts, but JSP Tag Libraries). It seems despite zero java coding on the JSP pages, those 'funny' tags are still not digest-able by average graphic designers. I mean, if they were to use Macromedia DreamWeaver, it would not've rendered the look and feel if the tags were something like this: - html:img page=/nice.gif altKey=Nice/ html:html locale=true /html:html html:link page=/another.jspbean:message key=another.title//html:link As opposed to the native standard HTML tags? I'm really not sure whether Macromedia or any other popular graphic artiste tool would render these Struts JSP pages properly. Anybody here has any experience solving this real world problem? Thanks. Any help would be much appreciated. Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Or how I learned to stop worrying and love email again -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/redirect-home?tag=velloscouk-21placemen t=home_multi.gifsite=amazon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards, Tzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is J2EE messing up your mind? http://www.see-consulting.com -- http://fastmail.fm - Send your email first class -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Micael --- This electronic mail
