[sugar] scrolling the journal list view (was Re: alt-tabbing to the Journal)
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Eben Eliason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 3:26 AM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Realtime scrolling so you can just grab, drag, and look as it goes past. Indeed. I have never been satisfied with the row-by-row scrolling, but we couldn't do better in terms of performance before. In redesigning the Journal, it was very important to us (to me, at the very least) that smooth pixel-scrolling was part of the plan. Tomeu, do you think we can make a transition like this for 9.1? I think it would be another big boost to using the Journal. Sure I think we should do something for 9.1, but right now the resourcing part is a bit complex. Maybe Scott can comment on this? The main problem here is potential length of the scrolling page. Its unbounded, except by space constraints, right now. There are two viable options here that we've talked about. First, we could introduce the notion of paging, so that after scrolling to the bottom of a page in the Journal, you have (older) and (newer) buttons to get to other results. Second, and my preference, we could introduce temporal section headers. After scrolling far enough back in time, there might be sections for each month, and further back, for each year, etc., with each section being represented by a header only, and a disclosure button. Clicking on a section would open it inline, closing the currently open section, thus keeping everything in the Journal temporally ordered on a single infinite page, but allowing one to dive into it in any range of time. Yes, I like this idea and I think it's pretty much doable. Regards, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] scrolling the journal list view (was Re: alt-tabbing to the Journal)
On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 6:34 AM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Eben Eliason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 3:26 AM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Realtime scrolling so you can just grab, drag, and look as it goes past. Indeed. I have never been satisfied with the row-by-row scrolling, but we couldn't do better in terms of performance before. In redesigning the Journal, it was very important to us (to me, at the very least) that smooth pixel-scrolling was part of the plan. Tomeu, do you think we can make a transition like this for 9.1? I think it would be another big boost to using the Journal. Sure I think we should do something for 9.1, but right now the resourcing part is a bit complex. Maybe Scott can comment on this? Is this the right place to expend effort? From my experience, better paging control would be more useful than fine-tuning the scrolling. The main problem here is potential length of the scrolling page. Its unbounded, except by space constraints, right now. There are two viable options here that we've talked about. First, we could introduce the notion of paging, so that after scrolling to the bottom of a page in the Journal, you have (older) and (newer) buttons to get to other results. Second, and my preference, we could introduce temporal section headers. After scrolling far enough back in time, there might be sections for each month, and further back, for each year, etc., with each section being represented by a header only, and a disclosure button. Clicking on a section would open it inline, closing the currently open section, thus keeping everything in the Journal temporally ordered on a single infinite page, but allowing one to dive into it in any range of time. Yes, I like this idea and I think it's pretty much doable. Eben, weren't there a bunch of sketches regarding smart exponential timescales we had developed early on? Maybe dust those off? Some where quite good. Regards, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] scrolling the journal list view (was Re: alt-tabbing to the Journal)
On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Walter Bender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 6:34 AM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Eben Eliason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 3:26 AM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Realtime scrolling so you can just grab, drag, and look as it goes past. Indeed. I have never been satisfied with the row-by-row scrolling, but we couldn't do better in terms of performance before. In redesigning the Journal, it was very important to us (to me, at the very least) that smooth pixel-scrolling was part of the plan. Tomeu, do you think we can make a transition like this for 9.1? I think it would be another big boost to using the Journal. Sure I think we should do something for 9.1, but right now the resourcing part is a bit complex. Maybe Scott can comment on this? Is this the right place to expend effort? From my experience, better paging control would be more useful than fine-tuning the scrolling. The path to better scroller, actually, is to define a proper form of paging control, which we don't yet have at all. A paging system that works will make it possible to scroll smoothly through the portion of the Journal which is currently visible, so we'll win on both fronts with this effort. The main problem here is potential length of the scrolling page. Its unbounded, except by space constraints, right now. There are two viable options here that we've talked about. First, we could introduce the notion of paging, so that after scrolling to the bottom of a page in the Journal, you have (older) and (newer) buttons to get to other results. Second, and my preference, we could introduce temporal section headers. After scrolling far enough back in time, there might be sections for each month, and further back, for each year, etc., with each section being represented by a header only, and a disclosure button. Clicking on a section would open it inline, closing the currently open section, thus keeping everything in the Journal temporally ordered on a single infinite page, but allowing one to dive into it in any range of time. Yes, I like this idea and I think it's pretty much doable. Eben, weren't there a bunch of sketches regarding smart exponential timescales we had developed early on? Maybe dust those off? Some where quite good. Every time we tried to come up with an inline timeline view for a scrollbar, we hit complications and ultimately wound up simplifying back to a standard scrollbar. I think there are definitely possibilities here still, but in terms of what's feasible for some real improvement in the next 6 months, I think continuing to use the standard scrolling mechanisms while introducing smarter folding of time is the better course. - Eben Regards, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] scrolling the journal list view (was Re: alt-tabbing to the Journal)
On 11 Oct 2008, at 11:34, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Eben Eliason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 3:26 AM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Realtime scrolling so you can just grab, drag, and look as it goes past. Indeed. I have never been satisfied with the row-by-row scrolling, but we couldn't do better in terms of performance before. In redesigning the Journal, it was very important to us (to me, at the very least) that smooth pixel-scrolling was part of the plan. Tomeu, do you think we can make a transition like this for 9.1? I think it would be another big boost to using the Journal. Sure I think we should do something for 9.1, but right now the resourcing part is a bit complex. Maybe Scott can comment on this? The main problem here is potential length of the scrolling page. Its unbounded, except by space constraints, right now. There are two viable options here that we've talked about. First, we could introduce the notion of paging, so that after scrolling to the bottom of a page in the Journal, you have (older) and (newer) buttons to get to other results. Second, and my preference, we could introduce temporal section headers. After scrolling far enough back in time, there might be sections for each month, and further back, for each year, etc., with each section being represented by a header only, and a disclosure button. Clicking on a section would open it inline, closing the currently open section, thus keeping everything in the Journal temporally ordered on a single infinite page, but allowing one to dive into it in any range of time. Yes, I like this idea and I think it's pretty much doable. Yes, I do like this. This also resolves the issue as found in regular desktop UI controls (and current Journal implementation), for where you have long a document and try to use the scroll-bar for navigation – the longer the page the smaller the scroll-bar, the more sensitive it's movement, and the harder it is to navigate in a controlled, refined manner. --Gary ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] scrolling the journal list view (was Re: alt-tabbing to the Journal)
On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 10:20 PM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Second, and my preference, we could introduce temporal section headers. After scrolling far enough back in time, there might be sections for each month, and further back, for each year, etc., with each section being represented by a header only, and a disclosure button. Clicking on a section would open it inline, closing the currently open section, thus keeping everything in the Journal temporally ordered on a single infinite page, but allowing one to dive into it in any range of time. Yes, I like this idea and I think it's pretty much doable. Yes, I do like this. This also resolves the issue as found in regular desktop UI controls (and current Journal implementation), for where you have long a document and try to use the scroll-bar for navigation – the longer the page the smaller the scroll-bar, the more sensitive it's movement, and the harder it is to navigate in a controlled, refined manner. +1 excellent idea. Marco ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] scrolling the journal list view (was Re: alt-tabbing to the Journal)
On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 09:20:56PM +0100, Gary C Martin wrote: On 11 Oct 2008, at 11:34, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Eben Eliason wrote: The main problem here is potential length of the scrolling page. [...] we could introduce temporal section headers. After scrolling far enough back in time, there might be sections for each month, and further back, for each year, etc. Yes, I like this idea and I think it's pretty much doable. [...] the longer the page the smaller the scroll-bar, the more sensitive it's movement, and the harder it is to navigate in a controlled, refined manner. We're not preparing kids for the real world: http://www.martindengler.com/tmp/journal2.jpg (also an example of: what 1200x900 px can be used for; what temporal section headers get chosen for me by the real world; and how sometimes I've given up and created temporal sections myself) --Gary Martin pgpICiR57lOxc.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] scrolling the journal list view (was Re: alt-tabbing to the Journal)
On 11 Oct 2008, at 22:49, Martin Dengler wrote: On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 09:20:56PM +0100, Gary C Martin wrote: On 11 Oct 2008, at 11:34, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Eben Eliason wrote: The main problem here is potential length of the scrolling page. [...] we could introduce temporal section headers. After scrolling far enough back in time, there might be sections for each month, and further back, for each year, etc. Yes, I like this idea and I think it's pretty much doable. [...] the longer the page the smaller the scroll-bar, the more sensitive it's movement, and the harder it is to navigate in a controlled, refined manner. We're not preparing kids for the real world: http://www.martindengler.com/tmp/journal2.jpg :-) (also an example of: what 1200x900 px can be used for; what temporal section headers get chosen for me by the real world; Oohh that takes me back (shudder). That 1200x900 UI on the XOs 200dpi screen would be pretty bad on the eyesight for something as critical as the Journal, kind'a like using Scratch is just now on the XO. Cursor targeting would be frustrating, and the 1200x900 is only true for grey pixels, any colour in the UI would basically be at 800x600. Also I'm sure there's some faint future navel gazing to be done given the XO-2 needing a UI fat enough for potentially chubby fingers to poke at ;-) Nice to see an example of temporal section headers, I guess in this example you'd need to fold them all auto closed, except one at a time. That would ideally keep displayed entries below some max total, give easier scroll bar manipulation, and keep the memory footprint down for when I add my 1001'st TurtleArt sqrt Journal entry ;-) and how sometimes I've given up and created temporal sections myself) I guess tag's will be the tool here, hmm I wonder if date could be part of the search string, say if I typed 2008 lesson plan, where lesson and plan could be tag or part of the title, and 2008 matched the year (where creation and modification dates could be treated as 'auto tags' set by the system, a little like activity type can be considered a system 'auto tag'). Might be useful for a kid to type in friday and get all their activities that they've generated for their classes on a Friday. Need to watch translation issues though. --Gary ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
