Re: [Sugar-devel] code for register widget

2010-09-01 Thread Tomeu Vizoso
On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 03:11, Luke Faraone l...@faraone.cc wrote:
 On 08/28/2010 05:02 AM, u...@dev.seeta.in wrote:
 Ref to LP bug #617813:
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sugar-0.88/+bug/617813

 Hi,

 I am working on this bug, and I want to go through the code for register
 widget and the processes it carries out with the networking interface
 also.
 But after going through a lot of files in sugar-0.88 package source, I
 wasn't able to get near to it.

 It would be great if somebody can provide pointers regarding it.

Hi Dipankar,

whenever I want to find out which code is related to a string
displayed in the UI, I grep the relevant modules for that string in
this way:

$ cd /opt/sugar-jhbuild/source/sugar
$ git grep Register

Hope that helps,

Tomeu


 Regards,
 Dipankar



 I haven't the faintest idea.

 This would probably be a good question to ask on the sugar-devel mailing
 list. CCing them on this reply.

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[Sugar-devel] Sugarbot on OLPC Sugarlabs

2010-09-01 Thread Asiri Gunarathna
Hi all,

We are trying to run Sugarbot on OLPC Sugarlabs. we use to refer sugarbot *
* http://code.google.com/p/sugarbot/*OLPC Sugar GUI automation project
(http://code.google.com/p/sugarbot/wiki/RunningSugarbot), but I cannot
install Sugarbot on OLPC.reason the instructions provided by the above site
, Is not clear enough for me.

I use olpc xo 1.5 OS 851 firmware q3a50, please give necessary  advice to
install Sugarbot.

Looking forward to hear from you. http://code.google.com/p/sugarbot/
*
Thanks,
Regards,
Asiri.
** http://code.google.com/p/sugarbot/
*
http://code.google.com/p/sugarbot/*
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Re: [Sugar-devel] screenreader for sugar

2010-09-01 Thread Tomeu Vizoso
On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 14:10, Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org wrote:
 On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 14:08, Esteban Arias ear...@plan.ceibal.edu.uy 
 wrote:
 hi,
 we can colaborate with this proyect.

 Excelent, have you tried already orca with Sugar? And with GNOME?

I would say that the next step is for someone who knows how orca is
used to give it a try and file tickets for the biggest issues. Not
sure we can make much more until then.

Regards,

Tomeu

 Regards,

 Tomeu

 2010/8/20 Gonzalo Odiard godi...@gmail.com

 In this thread
 http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/olpc-sur/2010-April/005829.html there are
 people interested.
 You can contact Esteban Arias also
 http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/olpc-uruguay/2010-February/001653.html

 Gonzalo

 On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:53, Gonzalo Odiard godi...@gmail.com wrote:
  Yes, there are interest in La Rioja, Argentina. In olpc-sur there are
  request for this.

 Great, do we have people there who can try things out and help decide
 what remains to be done?

 Regards,

 Tomeu

  Gonzalo
 
  On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:16 AM, Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org
  wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  is there any interest in a deployment somewhere for a screenreader
  that allows blind people use the Sugar UI when paired with keyboard
  navigation?
 
  I think most of the pieces are there, but without knowing how it could
  be used I cannot really test.
 
  Regards,
 
  Tomeu
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Re: [Sugar-devel] screenreader for sugar

2010-09-01 Thread pbrobin...@gmail.com
On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org wrote:
 On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 14:10, Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org wrote:
 On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 14:08, Esteban Arias ear...@plan.ceibal.edu.uy 
 wrote:
 hi,
 we can colaborate with this proyect.

 Excelent, have you tried already orca with Sugar? And with GNOME?

 I would say that the next step is for someone who knows how orca is
 used to give it a try and file tickets for the biggest issues. Not
 sure we can make much more until then.

The gnome guys mentioned this the other day and there's going to be
some more work done within gnome hopefully for F-14. So hopefully we
should be looking better for that release.

Peter
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Re: [Sugar-devel] wanting to try recent Sugar, problems

2010-09-01 Thread Sascha Silbe
Excerpts from S Page's message of Wed Sep 01 03:59:53 +0200 2010:

 I wanted to see how the library and Browse work in recent Sugar. I
 downloaded the weekly testing soas-i386-20100826.15.iso from
 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Beta
From discussions on the soas mailing list I gather these are known to
broken. Peter Robinson is going to look into it, but didn't get around
to yet.
AFAICT you should have better luck with Mirabelle (currently available
at [5]).  It's based on Sugar 0.88, but I don't think there have been any
changes since 0.88 in the areas you're currently interested in.

 * Can an XO-1 boot from this .iso if I turn it into a Live USB?
 Supposedly the F13 glibc incompatibility with Geode was fixed  in July
 ( https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=579838 -- great stuff
 from Dont Close Unfixed Bugs who must be John Gilmore in a mask ;-)
 ).
On XOs you might want to try Dextrose [1]. It's based on Sugar 0.88 as
well.

 * I tried to get Sugar jhbuild to work on Kubuntu several months ago,
 I never succeeded and it left me with package incompatibility
 difficulties.
sugar-jhbuild on Ubuntu is troublesome in general and for Ubuntu versions
newer than Karmic (9.10) it's completely broken because they dropped
python-xpcom [2]. There's nothing we can do on our side, it needs to be
fixed by Ubuntu. You can help by voting on the bug reports [2,3].

 Any suggestions?  Ideally my PC environment would continue running and
 I don't lose my OLPC build.
I can recommend KVM. Just put Debian Squeeze inside a VM and install the
sucrose-0.88 package. The Debian team (including several developers from
Activity Central / SEETA now) has been doing great work; I've been
running this on my XO-1.5 for quite some time now and encountered no bugs
other than those in the upstream parts. If you want the very latest
Sugar code, you can instead install sugar-jhbuild inside the VM (but
don't install Sugar distro packages and sugar-jhbuild in parallel on
the same VM, it'll cause trouble).

Read is broken [4] on all recent systems, no matter what distribution.

Sascha

[1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose
[2] https://bugs.launchpad.net/sugar/+bug/480407
[3] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/325706
[4] https://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1900
[5] http://spins.fedoraproject.org/soas/
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[Sugar-devel] Automatic saving (was: Re: [DESIGN] Etoys 4.1)

2010-09-01 Thread Sascha Silbe
Excerpts from forster's message of Wed Sep 01 01:07:27 +0200 2010:

 Create a program in Pippy, then look at one of the examples. All your work 
 will be overwritten.
That's a Critical bug, please file a ticket at https://bugs.sugarlabs.org
(with severity set to Critical).

 I have viewed a favourite holiday photo in Browse, then used that Browse 
 session to surf the net, overwriting that photo (can't replicate that now 
 OS373pyg).
If you ever can reproduce it, please file a ticket for this one too
(severity Critical again).

 I would be happy to have a global setting in control panel for all Activities 
 for autosave vs a dialogue which gave a choice on exit. Would that break 
 existing Activities?
It would break the entire design of Sugar.

 Though there is a case for autosave for raw beginners,
Automatic saving isn't for beginners, it's important for everyone.

 its contrary to Sugar's goal of empowering users to give them no control of 
 when saving occurs.
While no ceiling ultimately includes giving the user the power to shoot
themselves in the foot, it's not a goal to let that happen as part of the
everyday process.

You got a point, of course. There are currently two things missing from
(mainline) Sugar that affect this use case:
1. version support
2. A revert all my changes since I opened this activity button
   (_independent_ of the Stop button)

I've worked [1] on #1, but nobody cared to try it out [2].
#2 is just a shortcut; the user can always remove the latest version by
using the Journal.

I'm aware that the current implementation of version support is not
suitable for Sugar running on XO-1 (and _maybe_ XO-1.5) because it
increases the storage overhead and has no easy way to clean up
old versions, but on regular PCs which nowadays have hard disks in the
TB (terabytes) range (about 1000 times that of the XO-1) I don't accept
that argument.

I will continue working on version support, but as I'm a single person
and have other things to work on (including finishing my studies and
trying to come up with ways to pay the rent) it will take a lot of time.

Sascha

[1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Version_support_for_datastore
[2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Version_support_for_datastore/Howto
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Re: [Sugar-devel] wanting to try recent Sugar, problems

2010-09-01 Thread Anish Mangal
 don't install Sugar distro packages and sugar-jhbuild in parallel on
 the same VM, it'll cause trouble).

Can you elaborate what would be the nature of these problems?

I've been trying to get a clean jhbuild env to work under f13.
gabble/salut don't work when I run the sugar-emulator. and I can't
share activities.

To test whether is this was a system-wide problem, I installed the
sugar-* rpm's as well. The package-installed sugar-emulator starts up
well; gabble/salut don't crash and I can get activities to be shared.


 Sascha

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[Sugar-devel] Keep button (was: Re: [RELEASE] Etoys 4.1.2384)

2010-09-01 Thread Sascha Silbe
Excerpts from Gary Martin's message of Tue Aug 31 20:07:12 +0200 2010:

 My first gut reaction (not having seen it yet) is that the Keep button is a 
 real problem generally (and causes confusion and misunderstanding in Sugar). 
 Habitually training kids to click that icon each time before exiting will, 
 for all other activities, generate many confusing duplicate Journal entries 
 over time and make matters even worse.

+1

 For the Etoys case, as a workaround for not knowing your clean/dirty state, I 
 think having the regular Stop UI button that when clicked _always_ displayed 
 some sort of Do you want to Keep the changes to this project in the 
 Journal? Keep/Don't Keep dialogue.

Having the Stop button ask which version (the one in the Journal or the
one currently loaded) to destroy is a bad idea, but unsolvable without
version support.
Please avoid the Keep terminology in this context; it's only going to
confuse users even more.

Sascha

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Re: [Sugar-devel] screenreader for sugar

2010-09-01 Thread Esteban Arias
I install orca on xo 1.0 with gnome for f11.
If I config to start session with orca, runs ok. But if I execute orca from
terminal, dont run correctly:



2010/9/1 pbrobin...@gmail.com pbrobin...@gmail.com

 On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org wrote:
  On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 14:10, Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org wrote:
  On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 14:08, Esteban Arias ear...@plan.ceibal.edu.uy
 wrote:
  hi,
  we can colaborate with this proyect.
 
  Excelent, have you tried already orca with Sugar? And with GNOME?
 
  I would say that the next step is for someone who knows how orca is
  used to give it a try and file tickets for the biggest issues. Not
  sure we can make much more until then.

 The gnome guys mentioned this the other day and there's going to be
 some more work done within gnome hopefully for F-14. So hopefully we
 should be looking better for that release.

 Peter




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Investigación y Desarrollo - Plan Ceibal
Avda. Italia 6201
Montevideo - Uruguay.
Tel.: 2601.57.73 Interno 2228
E-mail : ear...@plan.ceibal.edu.uy
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Bug tracking Vs Patch review

2010-09-01 Thread Bernie Innocenti
El Tue, 31-08-2010 a las 10:33 +0200, Tomeu Vizoso escribió:
 Yes, we agreed on that, but then, just for the sake of argument,
 several unchecked statements were made that unfairly represented the
 current Sugar development model and the work of several members of our
 community.
[...]

I'm criticizing the development process, not the community.

While we seem to have diametrically opposed positions on what's
engulfing Sugar's development, we seem to agree that we indeed have a
problem of some kind.

Believe it or no, I highly respect you for all the work you've done for
Sugar and for taking the time to analyze the situation with me. I'm
actually sorry that few others seem interested in having this
discussion.

Moving forward: how are we going to reach consensus on changing (or not
changing) our development model? Shall we have a vote among all current
Sugar Labs members? Only people who ever contributed a patch? Only those
who have patches in git? Shall we ask the oversight board to make a
decision?

When I started to work on Dextrose, I immediately felt the need to fix
the upstream code acceptance process, starting from how we do code
reviews. Six months later nothing has changed, and I had to do most of
the work outside the mainline tree, causing problems for everyone.

It's not too late: some deployments still intend to contribute some of
their work upstream. They simply need someone from within Sugar Labs to
make a few steps towards them.


 In case it needs to be said, I'm extremely grateful at Christian,
 Gary, Eben, Eduardo and the others that put their experience, effort
 and time thinking about our UI, discussing it with others, drawing
 mockups for other people's features, etc

Me too. The dedication of our community is not being questioned.


 Unfortunately, I have seen people spend months coding a feature and
 not having found 30 seconds to write a heads-up email to the list
 asking for user experience feedback. At some point I took a minute to
 write such emails for 3 other people's features. Obviously it helps if
 you start the discussion just before you start coding, and not just
 after.

Ha! I've also seen the exact opposite happen: Tincho's initial design
proposals for the backup/restore feature and for the resource meter were
mostly ignored... Then we went on implementing those designs, test,
integrate and finally submit patches. At this point, people started
asking to redesign both the UI and the implementation.

So we gave up. Both Uruguay and Paraguay find the backup/restore feature
really useful. It would be extremely useful also for other deployments
and SoaS users. But it won't be in mainline until someone rewrites it,
which probably means never.

And here's where we should keep into account non-technical factors. Why
would a deployment that is already happy with how the feature works
today take the extra time to rewrite it according to how an upstream
wants it?

The long-term benefit of upstreaming patches is always unclear,
especially to managers. If we put too much of a burden on contributors,
we're simply going to loose them. We could go around saying it was their
fault for not following procedures X, Y and Z, but it's ultimately our
loss.


  Sometimes UI designers come up with an idea that nobody would implement.
  In other cases, programmers come up with UI changes that designers
  reject. When you get both, the work needs to go through maintainer
  approval of each affected module.
 
 Again, you are misrepresenting me just for the sake of argument,

You? This thread is not about you, don't take it personally. You happen
to be another person who cares to re-discuss our processes, this is why
I'm having this conversation with you.


 there's a wide chasm between giving others the chance to opine and
 taking those opinions seriously, and having to reach unanimity on a
 perfectly defined design.

So you agree that the final decision to include code in Sugar should be
in the hands on just one person who takes full responsibility for the
evolution (or lack thereof) of Sugar?

Because, to me, this is exactly what Sugar is missing today.


  Having some form of reviews is great, but we broke up Sugar in tightly
  coupled modules, so that any non-trivial change often spans across 2 or
  3. Typically it's sugar + sugar-toolkit + sugar-artwork.
 
 One person is working on merging them, several others have preferred
 just to complain about it.

Once you've established a lightweight workflow, merging patches is in
itself a no-brainer! All the maintainer has to do is git am
patches_to_apply.mbox and resolve any conflicts. If we managed to
approve patches in a timely fashion, they would apply cleanly almost all
the time.

As you know, in 6 months I've accumulated in Dextrose over 100 patches
for Sugar. Even though managing a patch queue is somewhat harder than
simply merging them, only a tiny amount of my time went in it. The
actual time sinks were testing and interaction with the 

Re: [Sugar-devel] Autosave and Keep button

2010-09-01 Thread Bert Freudenberg
On 01.09.2010, at 14:01, Sascha Silbe wrote:

 Excerpts from Gary Martin's message of Tue Aug 31 20:07:12 +0200 2010:
 
 My first gut reaction (not having seen it yet) is that the Keep button is a 
 real problem generally (and causes confusion and misunderstanding in Sugar). 
 Habitually training kids to click that icon each time before exiting will, 
 for all other activities, generate many confusing duplicate Journal entries 
 over time and make matters even worse.
 
 +1
 
 For the Etoys case, as a workaround for not knowing your clean/dirty state, 
 I think having the regular Stop UI button that when clicked _always_ 
 displayed some sort of Do you want to Keep the changes to this project in 
 the Journal? Keep/Don't Keep dialogue.
 
 Having the Stop button ask which version (the one in the Journal or the
 one currently loaded) to destroy is a bad idea, but unsolvable without
 version support.
 Please avoid the Keep terminology in this context; it's only going to
 confuse users even more.
 
 Sascha

That's one of the reasons I did not want to overload the exit button with 
saving functionality. It simply exits (after confirming) without ever saving 
now. To avoid confusion, it does not look like a regular stop button:
inline: PastedGraphic-1.png

But you can't really discuss autosaving and keeping separately. They go hand in 
hand. If an activity cannot autosave, it has to rely on the keep button, right? 
And keeping should create a new entry - that's how it is in every activity. 
Only autosave destructively overwrites the current entry.

I am warming up to Gary's suggestion though because it's the only way to avoid 
needless Journal entries, unless we introduce a save/save-as distinction.

Incidentally, on other platforms Etoys does versioning itself - every project 
saved has a version number embedded in the file name that is not visible in the 
UI. In the file-open dialog, all but the highest numbered versions are hidden. 
Now maybe if the Journal had a hide attribute for an entry, the Journal would 
look less cluttered. Also, when running out of space the hidden entries could 
be used to free up space. Wait, that's re-inventing the trash can ... but maybe 
not a bad idea after all.

- Bert -


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[Sugar-devel] Request for comments: A Proposed way to report Soas tests

2010-09-01 Thread Thomas C Gilliard
I have been using this format to report testing of Soas Nightly 
Composes. [1]

Please comment on the usability of such a format.

Tom Gilliard
satellit


[1] 
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Talk:Sugar_on_a_Stick_release_process#Test_Matrix 

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Activity title update

2010-09-01 Thread Simon Schampijer
On 07/19/2010 03:17 AM, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
 On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 9:57 PM, James Cameronqu...@laptop.org  wrote:

 On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 05:41:08PM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote:
 Can this resolve the problem?

 [r...@aronax graphics]# diff -u toolbutton.py.ori toolbutton.py
 --- toolbutton.py.ori2010-07-18 17:39:27.374544801 -0300
 +++ toolbutton.py2010-07-18 17:39:58.198297844 -0300
 @@ -160,3 +160,5 @@
   def do_clicked(self):
   if self.palette:
   self.palette.popdown(True)
 +else:
 +gtk.ToolButton(self)

 From my testing the focus-out event is propagated when we hit the stop 
button. focus-out is emitted, though we do save first. I have added now 
a line that just saves the title when hitting stop. Furthermore the 
focus-out-event handler is disconnected to not receive events when the 
activity is deconstructed (can be seen in current code).

http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/attachment/ticket/1948/0001-Save-title-when-closing-1948.patch

I think that is an ok solution (at least for 0.84).

Regards,
Simon
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [SoaS] Request for comments: A Proposed way to report Soas tests

2010-09-01 Thread Thomas C Gilliard

Caryl;

I added a section for Mac Testing.

Thanks for the feedback. I do not have a Mac so I will rely on others to 
use this section to report results


Tom Gilliard
satellit

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Talk:Sugar_on_a_Stick_release_process#Macintosh_Testing



Caryl Bigenho wrote:

Hi Tom and all...
You have done a great job organizing this.  The only thing I would suggest is 
adding something for Mac testers, maybe a separate chart, that refers to the 
method (and version of the method) they are using... Virtual Box or boot-helper 
CD or something else if something else will work too. Also, it should include 
the model of the Mac.  There are actually some folks in SoCal who are working 
on trying to get it to run on the old G4 (PowerPC) Macs.
Caryl

  

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 07:50:32 -0700
From: satel...@bendbroadband.com
To: s...@lists.sugarlabs.org
CC: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
Subject: [SoaS] Request for comments: A Proposed way to report Soas tests

I have been using this format to report testing of Soas Nightly 
Composes. [1]


Please comment on the usability of such a format.

Tom Gilliard
satellit


[1] 
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Talk:Sugar_on_a_Stick_release_process#Test_Matrix 


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Re: [Sugar-devel] [SoaS] Request for comments: A Proposed way to report Soas tests

2010-09-01 Thread pbrobin...@gmail.com
On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Caryl Bigenho cbige...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Hi Tom and all...
 You have done a great job organizing this.  The only thing I would suggest
 is adding something for Mac testers, maybe a separate chart, that refers to
 the method (and version of the method) they are using... Virtual Box or
 boot-helper CD or something else if something else will work too. Also, it
 should include the model of the Mac.  There are actually some folks in SoCal
 who are working on trying to get it to run on the old G4 (PowerPC) Macs.

How are they using PowerPCs? What PPC distribution are they using for this?

Peter

 Caryl

 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2010 07:50:32 -0700
 From: satel...@bendbroadband.com
 To: s...@lists.sugarlabs.org
 CC: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
 Subject: [SoaS] Request for comments: A Proposed way to report Soas tests

 I have been using this format to report testing of Soas Nightly
 Composes. [1]

 Please comment on the usability of such a format.

 Tom Gilliard
 satellit


 [1]

 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Talk:Sugar_on_a_Stick_release_process#Test_Matrix

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Automatic saving (was: Re: [DESIGN] Etoys 4.1)

2010-09-01 Thread forster
  Create a program in Pippy, then look at one of the examples. All your work 
  will be overwritten.
 That's a Critical bug, please file a ticket at https://bugs.sugarlabs.org
 (with severity set to Critical).

done  Ticket #2271 
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Findings for Register Bug LP #617813

2010-09-01 Thread Bernie Innocenti
(let's always cc sugar-devel@ when we discuss sugar bugs, so the rest of
the Sugar development community can jump in with better suggestions than
mine)


El Thu, 02-09-2010 a las 00:45 +0530, Dipankar Patro escribió:
 Hello Bernie,

 Following are the findings and plan of action for the LP Bug : #617813

 Problem : Sugar freezes when we try to register on emulator

 Findings:
 We think that sugar is not handling the inaccessible sites/servers
 properly.
 The current code just checks for regular errors. It doesn't have
 provisions for long time lags.
 This can easily be rectified a small code to stop register procedure
 if the time elapsed is more than allowed lag time.

 Plan of action:
 Add the required snippet in
 /usr/share/pyshared/jarabe/desktop/schoolserver.py
 at
 line 100

 somewhat similar to
 if (t45 seconds), a message

 Wish if you could provide some pointers on this.


The problem is that schoolserver registration code uses blocking I/O.
There's no way you can test for a timeout, because your code will not be
executed while the network operation is going on.

GUI applications cannot generally use blocking networking operations
like that. In order to fix this bug, this code should be rewritten using
asynchronous callbacks.

The good news is that somone already proposed a solution for this
problem a very time ago: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1152

The bad news is that this patch was written for Sugar 0.82 and it will
probably need some adaptation.

Hope this helps,

-- 
   // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/
 \X/  Sugar Labs   - http://sugarlabs.org/

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Bug tracking Vs Patch review

2010-09-01 Thread Marco Pesenti Gritti
Guys,

honestly this whole discussion is getting a bit ridiculous, lots of rhetoric 
and very little practical disagreement.

We agree that we should try out reviews on the mailing list, let's just do it.

I'm pretty confident we can setup and improve patchwork to help us tracking 
patch status reliably. I don't have a lot of time but I will commit to help out 
with both infrastructure and the reviews themselves.

Marco

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