Re: [Sugar-devel] Port to TelepathyGLib

[Rahul Bothra]

Hi,

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 3:11 AM, James Cameron  wrote:
> As you may have seen in my post in the last hour, forks of software
> dilute maintainership, and everyone is worse off.

> As part of porting to Python 3, we need to port to TelepathyGLib as
> well.  This is because there is no maintained static binding of
> Telepathy for Python 3.

> If we were to bundle Telepathy inside Sugar, we would most likely lose
> automatic maintenance of Telepathy.  Downstream distribution packagers
> know about this risk, and often give upstream projects a nudge about
> it.  An example is the Rsvg static binding that, while it was quite
> trivial, became a hot topic and eventually caused our GTK+ 2 toolkit
> to be dropped from Debian and Ubuntu, despite other GTK+ 2
> applications remaining.


Thanks for the detailed explanation. I agree, we should port.


> We may face other ports as well.  We're yet to uncover them, and may
> only uncover them by trying to run the code.  I'm hoping we don't have
> to port from static binding for D-Bus, but I won't know until we test
> the code.

Yes, I am not yet sure about D-Bus

> Don't worry about the 72 results of search;
> 1.  many of those activities don't work now, so there would be no
> significant gain from porting them,
> 2.  some activities are not in https://github.com/sugarlabs/
> 3.  best to concentrate on the "Fructose" set of demonstration
> activities,

Sure, I will keep this in mind, Thank you

> Perhaps the patterns of change can be expressed as a sed(1) script and
> added to your sugar-docs Port to Python 3 checklist?  This will help
> people like me who have activities to maintain.

Sure, I will make one soon.


Thanks

Rahul Bothra (Pro-Panda)
___
Sugar-devel mailing list
Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel

Re: [Sugar-devel] FAQ on Sugarizer

[Tony Anderson]

At the cited meeting, I was prepared to update the status of activities 
on ASLO and github. However, there was

no interest.

A quick summary: There are 514 activities divided into three groups:
    83  which have the current version from github installed on aslo 
(http://activities.sugarlabs.org/activities/)
   104 which are in github but not installed on aslo (and hence not 
available to our users)

   324 which are installed in ASLO but not in github

The primary problem with the 104 activities is the failure to update the 
version number. This appears to result from an
erroneous instruction that the update to the version should be made by 
the mythical maintainer. This is contrary to Sugar practice
over the past 10+ years. The practice has been for the 
developer/maintainer to update the version number when releasing a change.
As an example, the version number of Turtle Blocks (Art) is 216. Only 
the person making the changes knows when the implementation is

complete and ready for release and so must commit the version number change.

It would be a simple matter to update the version numbers (I have for 
the school server aslolite). As a result, our users on Ubuntu may have 
access to 187 activities.


It is amazing when we are worried about code coverage to find several 
activities in github that do not have setup.py. Certainly, whoever is 
posting changes to github can take the time to run python setup.py.


There were three activities where setup.py failed due to errors in po. 
In two cases, the file contained duplicate entries - this was trivial to 
fix. In another, setup.py crashed in genpot!


Along with wanting Music Blocks in Sugarizer, it would be nice to find 
it in ASLO. Without a specific release, the user is left to find out 
whether the current code is in a stable state. This, of course, is the 
reason for version numbers. It separates tested releases from ongoing 
development versions.


A essential element of the github process is to mark versions as 
released so that real maintainers can reproduce the environment in a bug 
report.


Reports from users would be more likely if they were given serious 
attention instead of the normal handwaving. My report on the version 
problem with HelloWorld - chosen as a simple example of the problem - 
was to remove it from public view!


What we have needed for a long time is a system like the one Adam Holt 
created at OLPC - a h...@sugarlabs.org monitored by a volunteer team 
that would respond and try to find a solution to the problems (support 
gang).


Tony



On Thursday, 17 May, 2018 05:25 AM, Walter Bender wrote:



On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:09 PM James Cameron > wrote:


On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 10:27:59PM +0200, Lionel Laské wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've read on a recent sugar-meeting questions regarding Sugarizer
> packaging.
> Because I've just released version 1.0,

Thanks for the reminder; I've rebased the Sugar Labs clone of your
Sugarizer repository.

> I think it's the right time to build a Sugarizer FAQ. I'm answering
> below on questions asked during this meeting but I will be please to
> add to this future FAQ all questions you're interested to ask. Don't
> be shy :-)

My remaining question at the end of my mail.


I'll post my questions at the end as well.


> Who is responsible of the packaging of Sugarizer ? Who choose
> activities distributed inside Sugarizer ?
>
> I'm choosing all activities integrated into the Sugarizer package.
>
> It's an editorial choice. It's also a way to simplify use of
> Sugarizer by non technical guys.
>
> Finally it's a way to ensure a good quality: I spent lot of time
> before each release to test each activity on each supported platform
> (Chrome, Firefox, Safari, EDGE, Android, iOS, ChromeOS, Windows 10).

Thanks.  This is the same strategy I use for OLPC OS on Fedora and
Ubuntu, and for Sugar Live Build.  The results are;

- completeness,

- complementary activities, due to careful selection,

- reduced software defects distributed, due to full testing.

I've done this because the individual activity model only worked
when there was a feedback path from the end-user to an activity
maintainer.  Without activity maintainers, I've had to take most of
that role myself.  Without feedback, fatal bugs have gone undetected
for months to years at a time.


As a sometimes activity maintainer, my biggest issue is that I get 
zero feedback from the deployments about bugs or anything else for 
that matter. This is true for both Sugar and Sugarizer.



> BTW all deployment is free to change (add/remove) activities
> packaged in Sugarizer - see below.
>
>
>
> Is it possible to change activities package into Sugarizer ?
>
> Because each activities has it's own directory in Sugarizer, It's
> easy to 

Re: [Sugar-devel] Port to TelepathyGLib

[James Cameron]

Thanks for working on this.

As you may have seen in my post in the last hour, forks of software
dilute maintainership, and everyone is worse off.

As part of porting to Python 3, we need to port to TelepathyGLib as
well.  This is because there is no maintained static binding of
Telepathy for Python 3.

If we were to bundle Telepathy inside Sugar, we would most likely lose
automatic maintenance of Telepathy.  Downstream distribution packagers
know about this risk, and often give upstream projects a nudge about
it.  An example is the Rsvg static binding that, while it was quite
trivial, became a hot topic and eventually caused our GTK+ 2 toolkit
to be dropped from Debian and Ubuntu, despite other GTK+ 2
applications remaining.

We may face other ports as well.  We're yet to uncover them, and may
only uncover them by trying to run the code.  I'm hoping we don't have
to port from static binding for D-Bus, but I won't know until we test
the code.

Don't worry about the 72 results of search;

1.  many of those activities don't work now, so there would be no
significant gain from porting them,

2.  some activities are not in https://github.com/sugarlabs/

3.  best to concentrate on the "Fructose" set of demonstration
activities,

Thanks for demonstrating the port complexity in the toolkit
https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-toolkit-gtk3/pull/389/commits/a6f2cdaca58bc737d825365afd7bd3d7f12c530c

Perhaps the patterns of change can be expressed as a sed(1) script and
added to your sugar-docs Port to Python 3 checklist?  This will help
people like me who have activities to maintain.

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 12:17:19AM +0530, Rahul Bothra wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I started understanding how Telepathy and DBus work, and porting our code to
> use their PyGI bindings instead of static bindings, and it looks like a big
> task.
> Also, GitHub search gives 72 results [1]https://github.com/search?p=5=
> org%3Asugarlabs+%22from+telepathy%22=Code=%E2%9C%93 for instances of
> telepathy
> 
> Instead, Should we pack the static binding port of Telepathy inside
> Sugar-Toolkit. The only change that will then have to be made will be:
> "from telepathy.foo import bar" will have to be changed to "from
> sugar3.telepathy.foo import bar"
> 
> Please suggest if there can be any disadvantages in following this approach ?
> (Sorry, if it is obvious)
> 
> Regards
> Rahul Bothra (Pro-Panda)
> 
> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 3:56 AM, James Cameron <[2]qu...@laptop.org> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 11:02:49PM +0530, Rahul Bothra wrote:
> > - Rahul will also contact upstream(s) of Telepathy to ask their
> >   plans of a Python 3.x Telepathy version
> 
> Telepathy upstream suggested using PyGObject API, available for both
> Python 2 and Python 3.
> 
> [3]https://lazka.github.io/pgi-docs/#TelepathyGLib-0.12
> 
> On Ubuntu 18.04 install package gir1.2-telepathyglib-0.12 and then
> this test passes;
> 
> $ python2
> >>> from gi.repository import TelepathyGLib
> 
> $ python3
> >>> from gi.repository import TelepathyGLib
> 
> For the moment, development can happen with your static binding port
> of Telepathy, but we should not plan to rely on it, because
> downstreams already have a Python 3 Telepathy in the form of
> TelepathyGLib.
> 
> So we must port.
> 
> [4]https://github.com/orgs/sugarlabs/projects updated with new "Port to
> TelepathyGLib"
> [5]https://github.com/orgs/sugarlabs/projects/4
> 
> 
> Change from
> 
>         from telepathy.foo import bar
> 
> to
> 
>         import gi
>         gi.require_version('TelepathyGLib', '0.12')
>         from gi.repository import TelepathyGLib
> 
> Prerequisite for Port to Python 3.
> 
>
> --
> James Cameron
> [6]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> ___
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> [7]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [8]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> 
> References:
> 
> [1] 
> https://github.com/search?p=5=org%3Asugarlabs+%22from+telepathy%22=Code=%E2%9C%93
> [2] mailto:qu...@laptop.org
> [3] https://lazka.github.io/pgi-docs/#TelepathyGLib-0.12
> [4] https://github.com/orgs/sugarlabs/projects
> [5] https://github.com/orgs/sugarlabs/projects/4
> [6] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [7] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [8] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel

-- 
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
___
Sugar-devel mailing list
Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel

Re: [Sugar-devel] FAQ on Sugarizer

[Walter Bender]

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:09 PM James Cameron  wrote:

> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 10:27:59PM +0200, Lionel Laské wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've read on a recent sugar-meeting questions regarding Sugarizer
> > packaging.
> > Because I've just released version 1.0,
>
> Thanks for the reminder; I've rebased the Sugar Labs clone of your
> Sugarizer repository.
>
> > I think it's the right time to build a Sugarizer FAQ.  I'm answering
> > below on questions asked during this meeting but I will be please to
> > add to this future FAQ all questions you're interested to ask. Don't
> > be shy :-)
>
> My remaining question at the end of my mail.
>

I'll post my questions at the end as well.

>
> > Who is responsible of the packaging of Sugarizer ? Who choose
> > activities distributed inside Sugarizer ?
> >
> > I'm choosing all activities integrated into the Sugarizer package.
> >
> > It's an editorial choice. It's also a way to simplify use of
> > Sugarizer by non technical guys.
> >
> > Finally it's a way to ensure a good quality: I spent lot of time
> > before each release to test each activity on each supported platform
> > (Chrome, Firefox, Safari, EDGE, Android, iOS, ChromeOS, Windows 10).
>
> Thanks.  This is the same strategy I use for OLPC OS on Fedora and
> Ubuntu, and for Sugar Live Build.  The results are;
>
> - completeness,
>
> - complementary activities, due to careful selection,
>
> - reduced software defects distributed, due to full testing.
>
> I've done this because the individual activity model only worked
> when there was a feedback path from the end-user to an activity
> maintainer.  Without activity maintainers, I've had to take most of
> that role myself.  Without feedback, fatal bugs have gone undetected
> for months to years at a time.
>

As a sometimes activity maintainer, my biggest issue is that I get zero
feedback from the deployments about bugs or anything else for that matter.
This is true for both Sugar and Sugarizer.

>
> > BTW all deployment is free to change (add/remove) activities
> > packaged in Sugarizer - see below.
> >
> >
> >
> > Is it possible to change activities package into Sugarizer ?
> >
> > Because each activities has it's own directory in Sugarizer, It's
> > easy to change the packaging. See here:
> > https://github.com/llaske/Sugarizer# activities for more.
> >
> > On Sugarizer application (Android, iOS, Windows 10) it's not
> > possible to install/remove dynamically a new activity. It's today a
> > technical limitation: all downloads must be sandboxed.
>
> Thanks for confirming that.  One of my customers was under the
> impression that activities could be downloaded and installed within
> Sugarizer, but I was sure it wasn't a supported deployment model.
>
> Another customer liked the idea of a child _not_ being allowed to
> download unauthorised activities, akin to not allowing wireless on
> Sugar, or providing boundary router blocking at a school.  Some of
> the schools I've worked with have such filtering that they may as well
> not be considered as connected to the internet.  ;-)
>
> > So to change packaging for Sugarizer application, you will need to
> > rebuild the Cordova package. See here:
> >
> https://github.com/llaske/Sugarizer#build-application-for-android-ios-or-windows-10
> > for more.
> >
> > Note also than Sugarizer Server Dashboard allow each deployment to
> > choose favorite activities (on the home view by default). Just click
> > on Activities button and change favorite state in the dashboard. You
> > could also change activities order.
> >
> >
> >
> > Is the Sugarizer library close to matching the Sugar activities library ?
> >
> > Sugar activities library is very huge: I've counted more than 1000
> > activities.
>
> But as we have seen from Tony, very few of them work; now a two-digit
> number.
>
> > It's difficult to imagine to port all activities: activities should
> > be rewritten (no direct translation from Python/Gtk to
> > JavaScript/HTML). Plus, not all are really used on the field.
> >
> > So my porting strategy was:
> >
> >   ● G1G1 activities: Record, Calculate, Memory, Chat, Maze, Paint,
> > Speak, Moon, Clock, Physics, Abacus,  Turtle, Scratch, Etoys,
> > Pippy (Jappy), …
> >   ● Most used activities in deployment: Fototoon, Labyrinth, Tuxmath
> > (Tank Operation), …
> >   ● Activity asked by OLPC France deployments: Video Viewer (Khan
> > Academy, Canope), Shared Notes, QRCode, …
> >   ● Other activities proposed by contributors: Gears, ColorMyWorld,
> > Game Of Life, …
> >
> > I'm hearing from you to adapt priority and to port some specific
> > activities that could be useful on the field.
>
> Thanks for following up on the meeting questions.  I've two more.
>
> 1.  for Sugar activities that are written in JavaScript/HTML, yours is
> a hostile fork; unilateral, without consultation, and without code
> changes shared between the forks after the split.  We could be adding
> Sugarizer's 

Re: [Sugar-devel] FAQ on Sugarizer

[James Cameron]

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 10:27:59PM +0200, Lionel Laské wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've read on a recent sugar-meeting questions regarding Sugarizer
> packaging.
> Because I've just released version 1.0,

Thanks for the reminder; I've rebased the Sugar Labs clone of your
Sugarizer repository.

> I think it's the right time to build a Sugarizer FAQ.  I'm answering
> below on questions asked during this meeting but I will be please to
> add to this future FAQ all questions you're interested to ask. Don't
> be shy :-)

My remaining question at the end of my mail.

> Who is responsible of the packaging of Sugarizer ? Who choose
> activities distributed inside Sugarizer ?
> 
> I'm choosing all activities integrated into the Sugarizer package.
> 
> It's an editorial choice. It's also a way to simplify use of
> Sugarizer by non technical guys.
> 
> Finally it's a way to ensure a good quality: I spent lot of time
> before each release to test each activity on each supported platform
> (Chrome, Firefox, Safari, EDGE, Android, iOS, ChromeOS, Windows 10).

Thanks.  This is the same strategy I use for OLPC OS on Fedora and
Ubuntu, and for Sugar Live Build.  The results are;

- completeness,

- complementary activities, due to careful selection,

- reduced software defects distributed, due to full testing.

I've done this because the individual activity model only worked
when there was a feedback path from the end-user to an activity
maintainer.  Without activity maintainers, I've had to take most of
that role myself.  Without feedback, fatal bugs have gone undetected
for months to years at a time.

> BTW all deployment is free to change (add/remove) activities
> packaged in Sugarizer - see below.
> 
>  
> 
> Is it possible to change activities package into Sugarizer ?
> 
> Because each activities has it's own directory in Sugarizer, It's
> easy to change the packaging. See here:
> https://github.com/llaske/Sugarizer# activities for more.
> 
> On Sugarizer application (Android, iOS, Windows 10) it's not
> possible to install/remove dynamically a new activity. It's today a
> technical limitation: all downloads must be sandboxed.

Thanks for confirming that.  One of my customers was under the
impression that activities could be downloaded and installed within
Sugarizer, but I was sure it wasn't a supported deployment model.

Another customer liked the idea of a child _not_ being allowed to
download unauthorised activities, akin to not allowing wireless on
Sugar, or providing boundary router blocking at a school.  Some of
the schools I've worked with have such filtering that they may as well
not be considered as connected to the internet.  ;-)

> So to change packaging for Sugarizer application, you will need to
> rebuild the Cordova package. See here:
> https://github.com/llaske/Sugarizer#build-application-for-android-ios-or-windows-10
> for more.
> 
> Note also than Sugarizer Server Dashboard allow each deployment to
> choose favorite activities (on the home view by default). Just click
> on Activities button and change favorite state in the dashboard. You
> could also change activities order.
> 
>  
> 
> Is the Sugarizer library close to matching the Sugar activities library ?
> 
> Sugar activities library is very huge: I've counted more than 1000
> activities.

But as we have seen from Tony, very few of them work; now a two-digit
number.

> It's difficult to imagine to port all activities: activities should
> be rewritten (no direct translation from Python/Gtk to
> JavaScript/HTML). Plus, not all are really used on the field.
> 
> So my porting strategy was:
> 
>   ● G1G1 activities: Record, Calculate, Memory, Chat, Maze, Paint,
> Speak, Moon, Clock, Physics, Abacus,  Turtle, Scratch, Etoys,
> Pippy (Jappy), …
>   ● Most used activities in deployment: Fototoon, Labyrinth, Tuxmath
> (Tank Operation), …
>   ● Activity asked by OLPC France deployments: Video Viewer (Khan
> Academy, Canope), Shared Notes, QRCode, …
>   ● Other activities proposed by contributors: Gears, ColorMyWorld,
> Game Of Life, …
> 
> I'm hearing from you to adapt priority and to port some specific
> activities that could be useful on the field.

Thanks for following up on the meeting questions.  I've two more.

1.  for Sugar activities that are written in JavaScript/HTML, yours is
a hostile fork; unilateral, without consultation, and without code
changes shared between the forks after the split.  We could be adding
Sugarizer's activities to Sugar, and this would benefit both Sugar and
Sugarizer; more eyes on code, more users of the activities.  What are
your plans on this aspect?

2.  schools who have chosen to use Linux have no download option for
Sugarizer; why is that?  Are you expecting those schools to use Sugar
instead?

> 
> Best regards.
> 
>    Lionel.

-- 
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
___
Sugar-devel mailing list
Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org

[Sugar-devel] FAQ on Sugarizer

[Lionel Laské]

Hi all,

I've read on a recent sugar-meeting [1] questions regarding Sugarizer
packaging.
Because I've just released version 1.0, I think it's the right time to
build a Sugarizer FAQ.
I'm answering below on questions asked during this meeting but I will be
please to add to this future FAQ all questions you're interested to ask.
Don't be shy :-)


Who is responsible of the packaging of Sugarizer ? Who choose activities
distributed inside Sugarizer ?

I'm choosing all activities integrated into the Sugarizer package.

It's an editorial choice. It's also a way to simplify use of Sugarizer by
non technical guys.

Finally it's a way to ensure a good quality: I spent lot of time before
each release to test each activity on each supported platform (Chrome,
Firefox, Safari, EDGE, Android, iOS, ChromeOS, Windows 10).

BTW all deployment is free to change (add/remove) activities packaged in
Sugarizer - see below.



Is it possible to change activities package into Sugarizer ?

Because each activities has it's own directory in Sugarizer, It's easy to
change the packaging. See here:
https://github.com/llaske/Sugarizer#activities for more.

On Sugarizer application (Android, iOS, Windows 10) it's not possible to
install/remove dynamically a new activity. It's today a technical
limitation: all downloads must be sandboxed. So to change packaging for
Sugarizer application, you will need to rebuild the Cordova package. See
here:
https://github.com/llaske/Sugarizer#build-application-for-android-ios-or-windows-10
for more.

Note also than Sugarizer Server Dashboard allow each deployment to choose
favorite activities (on the home view by default). Just click on Activities
button and change favorite state in the dashboard. You could also change
activities order.



Is the Sugarizer library close to matching the Sugar activities library ?

Sugar activities library is very huge: I've counted more than 1000
activities.

It's difficult to imagine to port all activities: activities should be
rewritten (no direct translation from Python/Gtk to JavaScript/HTML). Plus,
not all are really used on the field.

So my porting strategy was:

   - G1G1 activities: Record, Calculate, Memory, Chat, Maze, Paint, Speak,
   Moon, Clock, Physics, Abacus,  Turtle, Scratch, Etoys, Pippy (Jappy), …
   - Most used activities in deployment: Fototoon, Labyrinth, Tuxmath (Tank
   Operation), …
   - Activity asked by OLPC France deployments: Video Viewer (Khan Academy,
   Canope), Shared Notes, QRCode, …
   - Other activities proposed by contributors: Gears, ColorMyWorld, Game
   Of Life, …

I'm hearing from you to adapt priority and to port some specific activities
that could be useful on the field.


Best regards.

   Lionel.


[1] http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/sugar-meeting/2018-05-15#i_2925856
___
Sugar-devel mailing list
Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel

Re: [Sugar-devel] Port to TelepathyGLib

[Rahul Bothra]

Hi,

I started understanding how Telepathy and DBus work, and porting our code
to use their PyGI bindings instead of static bindings, and it looks like a
big task.
Also, GitHub search gives 72 results
https://github.com/search?p=5=org%3Asugarlabs+%22from+telepathy%22=Code=%E2%9C%93
for instances of telepathy

Instead, Should we pack the static binding port of Telepathy inside
Sugar-Toolkit. The only change that will then have to be made will be:
"from telepathy.foo import bar" will have to be changed to "from
sugar3.telepathy.foo import bar"

Please suggest if there can be any disadvantages in following this approach
? (Sorry, if it is obvious)

Regards
Rahul Bothra (Pro-Panda)




On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 3:56 AM, James Cameron  wrote:

> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 11:02:49PM +0530, Rahul Bothra wrote:
> > - Rahul will also contact upstream(s) of Telepathy to ask their
> >   plans of a Python 3.x Telepathy version
>
> Telepathy upstream suggested using PyGObject API, available for both
> Python 2 and Python 3.
>
> https://lazka.github.io/pgi-docs/#TelepathyGLib-0.12
>
> On Ubuntu 18.04 install package gir1.2-telepathyglib-0.12 and then
> this test passes;
>
> $ python2
> >>> from gi.repository import TelepathyGLib
>
> $ python3
> >>> from gi.repository import TelepathyGLib
>
> For the moment, development can happen with your static binding port
> of Telepathy, but we should not plan to rely on it, because
> downstreams already have a Python 3 Telepathy in the form of
> TelepathyGLib.
>
> So we must port.
>
> https://github.com/orgs/sugarlabs/projects updated with new "Port to
> TelepathyGLib"
> https://github.com/orgs/sugarlabs/projects/4
>
> 
> Change from
>
> from telepathy.foo import bar
>
> to
>
> import gi
> gi.require_version('TelepathyGLib', '0.12')
> from gi.repository import TelepathyGLib
>
> Prerequisite for Port to Python 3.
> 
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
> ___
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
___
Sugar-devel mailing list
Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel