Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar-devel Digest, Vol 11, Issue 89 (SoaS performance/hard drive swapping)
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 4:47 AM, Elena of Valhalla wrote: > On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Bill Bogstad wrote: >> My wish is to figure out ways that SoaS can take advantage of the hard >> drive while still remaining a portable environment. Hmm... Hey, here >> is a potentially useful 'hack'. Have SoaS detect the presence of a >> hard drive at boot time, look for partitions marked as Linux swap, and >> enable swapping on them. This could make 256Meg machines much more >> usable. Should be as safe as the contents of partitions with the >> Linux swap type are pretty much fair game to be overwritten at any >> reboot. > > What about computers where suspend-to-disk is used? afaik in that case > the memory contents are written to the swap partition between hardware > reboots. Since it turns out that the F11 Live ISO as well as the SoaS strawberry ISO both do this already, it doesn't really matter whether it's a good idea or not. It's already configured to work more or less as I described. I just didn't know it. We would have to deliberately turn off this functionality in Fedora when building SoaS to make this no longer happen. I don't see much reason to do so until we get bug reports. In the meantime, we can use it. Bill Bogstad ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar-devel Digest, Vol 11, Issue 89 (SoaS performance/hard drive swapping)
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Bill Bogstad wrote: > My wish is to figure out ways that SoaS can take advantage of the hard > drive while still remaining a portable environment. Hmm... Hey, here > is a potentially useful 'hack'. Have SoaS detect the presence of a > hard drive at boot time, look for partitions marked as Linux swap, and > enable swapping on them. This could make 256Meg machines much more > usable. Should be as safe as the contents of partitions with the > Linux swap type are pretty much fair game to be overwritten at any > reboot. What about computers where suspend-to-disk is used? afaik in that case the memory contents are written to the swap partition between hardware reboots. That's not something that is usually done on desktop PCs, of course, so it may not be a problem right now. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' homepage: http://www.trueelena.org email: elena.valha...@gmail.com ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar-devel Digest, Vol 11, Issue 89 (SoaS performance/hard drive swapping)
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Bill Bogstad wrote: > As for swap, if you are repurposing discarded machines on any kind of > scale you are going to end up with non-functional machines which are a > great source of parts. Strip the RAM from the dead machines and > upgrade the rest. This is something that even 10-12 year old kids can > help with and probably enjoy. If it's part of a project where they > get to take the machines home afterwards they will be even more > motivated. Don't forget that SoaS makes driveless used computers usable. Right now, the leftovers from installfests all get recycled as scrap. I am thinking about giving students one diskless computer at school and one at home. > Bill Bogstad > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://earthtreasury.org/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar-devel Digest, Vol 11, Issue 89 (SoaS performance/hard drive swapping)
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 7:56 PM, Douglas McClendon wrote: > Bill Bogstad wrote: >> [swapping on hard disk with SoaS >> >> Anybody want to code/script this up? > > does /etc/rc.d/init.d/livesys (search for swapon) in f11/soas not already do > just that? I just checked both F11 Live and SoaS Live ISOs. You are absolutely correct for both. It checks for partitions marked as swap and then mounts all of them. I even tested it with the SoaS Live ISO under virtualization and it mounted the swap partition as expected. Current SoaS deployments can take advantage of this without requiring any changes to students sticks. If someone gets a chance, it would be interesting to see how much performance changes on low memory systems when you do this. >> Or we could make a swap file on the flash stick (not in the Linux root >> filesystem though, too many levels of indirection for good >> performance). This could be setup to only be turned on when the >> physical memory in the machine is below a certain amount. > > With the wide variance in performance of usb drives (from rotating, to good > flash, to old cheap slow flash), I think you might need more logic to get a > good general purpose solution here. The funny thing is that if livesys finds a file called swap.img on the live media it uses that for swap as well. No attempts to check for memory size. Doesn't pay attention to the fact that it may already be swapping to disk. It just uses it. Apparently the original developers of the livesys code decided to at least make it an option. This could be useful with the XO-1. You could throw a cheap SD card into those machines and use it for swapping. As software (invariably) bloats, this could extend the life of this machines. Bill Bogstad ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar-devel Digest, Vol 11, Issue 89 (SoaS performance/hard drive swapping)
Bill Bogstad wrote: > On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Jim Simmons wrote: >> Art, >> >> Being a frugal person I do all my home computing on legacy machines >> like the ones you've tested with. As far as SoaS is concerned, I >> agree with your conclusions. I got better results than you did with >> my Pentium III because I've installed a USB 2.0 expansion card on it. >> I haven't tried a Pentium II. >> >> What I'd like to point out is that while these older machines don't >> run SoaS very well they may be perfectly adequate running Fedora 11 >> with the included Sugar environment, especially if the Sugar >> environment and its Activities are the only things running. I do that >> with a Pentium III with 256 Meg of RAM and probably much less than 1 >> gigahertz speed. One advantage you have doing this is you can have a >> swap partition on the hard drive. Another advantage is that the >> Fedora 11 distribution probably supports more sound cards than SoaS >> ever could. Plus you don't have to deal with slow USB 1.0 ports, >> flaky thumb drives, etc. > > I was under the impression that SoaS WAS Fedora 11 at that level of > the software (just installed and configured a little differently). I > haven't delved into SoaS packages in detail so I could be wrong here. > > As for swap, if you are repurposing discarded machines on any kind of > scale you are going to end up with non-functional machines which are a > great source of parts. Strip the RAM from the dead machines and > upgrade the rest. This is something that even 10-12 year old kids can > help with and probably enjoy. If it's part of a project where they > get to take the machines home afterwards they will be even more > motivated. > > My wish is to figure out ways that SoaS can take advantage of the hard > drive while still remaining a portable environment. Hmm... Hey, here > is a potentially useful 'hack'. Have SoaS detect the presence of a > hard drive at boot time, look for partitions marked as Linux swap, and > enable swapping on them. This could make 256Meg machines much more > usable. Should be as safe as the contents of partitions with the > Linux swap type are pretty much fair game to be overwritten at any > reboot. > > The only case that I can think of where this would be a problem is if > someone is doing Linux kernel dumps to swap space for diagnostic > purposes. If they are doing this then they are uber-Linux wizards and > are already having to deal with this potential issue in their normal > usage of the machine. > > Anybody want to code/script this up? I'm pretty sure /etc/rc.d/init.d/livesys (search for swapon) in f11/soas already does just that. > > Or we could make a swap file on the flash stick (not in the Linux root > filesystem though, too many levels of indirection for good > performance). This could be setup to only be turned on when the > physical memory in the machine is below a certain amount. With the wide variance in performance of usb drives (from rotating, to good flash, to old cheap slow flash), I think you might need more logic to get a good general purpose solution here. I.e. there may be cases where the flash performance is so bad it isn't worth doing. -dmc > > Perhaps do both in the same system startup script. Check for hard > drive swap partition(s) first and use if available. If no hard drive > swap partitions are available, check memory of machine and use a swap > file on flash if memory is low. This idea > I really like (of course I'm biased). > > Bill Bogstad > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar-devel Digest, Vol 11, Issue 89 (SoaS performance/hard drive swapping)
Art, Sugar on the XO does not have a swap partition because swapping to disk would quickly wear out the solid state drive. You'd have the same problem on a thumb drive, plus swapping to a drive connected to a USB 1.0 port would not be fast. Now the other idea of checking to see if the computer has any Linux swap partitions on its hard drives and mounting them sounds good. Lots of Live CDs will mount any files systems they find on the computer so I would guess you could do the same thing with SoaS. You could put a swap partition on an old Windows PC using the gnuparted live CD, without actually installing Linux. Windows users wouldn't even know it was there, but SoaS could find it and use it. As for supporting more hardware, a full Linux distro installs drivers once as part of the install process. A live CD or thumb drive has to figure out what kind of hardware you have as part of the boot process. That has to limit what hardware you can reasonably support. The other thing you can do with a full distro is give each user his own account with a password. In Fedora 11 when you login you can specify what desktop environment you want (GNOME, KDE, WindowMaker, Sugar). So every user of the computer has his own stuff, even if he can't always take it home with him. James Simmons > 2) Would it be possible to configure a SoaS USB drive so that the unused > portion could function as a swap drive? > > Art Hunkins ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar-devel Digest, Vol 11, Issue 89 (SoaS performance/hard drive swapping)
Two questions: 1) Is there a difference between Fedora 11 and SoaS with regard to how many "sound cards" are supported? 2) Would it be possible to configure a SoaS USB drive so that the unused portion could function as a swap drive? Frankly, if a full Fedora 11 supported more sound cards and other hardware (e.g., video cards), and/or a higher-capacity USB drive would allow for a swap drive, I'd *certainly* opt for a larger USB drive. We're only talking a few $ (or whatever) more. I doubt the above scenario is possible - but it can't hurt to ask. (Though I imagine if feasible it would already have been implemented.) Art Hunkins - Original Message - From: "Bill Bogstad" To: "Jim Simmons" Cc: "Art Hunkins" ; ; "Sebastian Dziallas" Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar-devel Digest, Vol 11, Issue 89 (SoaS performance/hard drive swapping) On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Jim Simmons wrote: > Art, > > Being a frugal person I do all my home computing on legacy machines > like the ones you've tested with. As far as SoaS is concerned, I > agree with your conclusions. I got better results than you did with > my Pentium III because I've installed a USB 2.0 expansion card on it. > I haven't tried a Pentium II. > > What I'd like to point out is that while these older machines don't > run SoaS very well they may be perfectly adequate running Fedora 11 > with the included Sugar environment, especially if the Sugar > environment and its Activities are the only things running. I do that > with a Pentium III with 256 Meg of RAM and probably much less than 1 > gigahertz speed. One advantage you have doing this is you can have a > swap partition on the hard drive. Another advantage is that the > Fedora 11 distribution probably supports more sound cards than SoaS > ever could. Plus you don't have to deal with slow USB 1.0 ports, > flaky thumb drives, etc. I was under the impression that SoaS WAS Fedora 11 at that level of the software (just installed and configured a little differently). I haven't delved into SoaS packages in detail so I could be wrong here. As for swap, if you are repurposing discarded machines on any kind of scale you are going to end up with non-functional machines which are a great source of parts. Strip the RAM from the dead machines and upgrade the rest. This is something that even 10-12 year old kids can help with and probably enjoy. If it's part of a project where they get to take the machines home afterwards they will be even more motivated. My wish is to figure out ways that SoaS can take advantage of the hard drive while still remaining a portable environment. Hmm... Hey, here is a potentially useful 'hack'. Have SoaS detect the presence of a hard drive at boot time, look for partitions marked as Linux swap, and enable swapping on them. This could make 256Meg machines much more usable. Should be as safe as the contents of partitions with the Linux swap type are pretty much fair game to be overwritten at any reboot. The only case that I can think of where this would be a problem is if someone is doing Linux kernel dumps to swap space for diagnostic purposes. If they are doing this then they are uber-Linux wizards and are already having to deal with this potential issue in their normal usage of the machine. Anybody want to code/script this up? Or we could make a swap file on the flash stick (not in the Linux root filesystem though, too many levels of indirection for good performance). This could be setup to only be turned on when the physical memory in the machine is below a certain amount. Perhaps do both in the same system startup script. Check for hard drive swap partition(s) first and use if available. If no hard drive swap partitions are available, check memory of machine and use a swap file on flash if memory is low. This idea I really like (of course I'm biased). Bill Bogstad ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] Sugar-devel Digest, Vol 11, Issue 89 (SoaS performance/hard drive swapping)
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Jim Simmons wrote: > Art, > > Being a frugal person I do all my home computing on legacy machines > like the ones you've tested with. As far as SoaS is concerned, I > agree with your conclusions. I got better results than you did with > my Pentium III because I've installed a USB 2.0 expansion card on it. > I haven't tried a Pentium II. > > What I'd like to point out is that while these older machines don't > run SoaS very well they may be perfectly adequate running Fedora 11 > with the included Sugar environment, especially if the Sugar > environment and its Activities are the only things running. I do that > with a Pentium III with 256 Meg of RAM and probably much less than 1 > gigahertz speed. One advantage you have doing this is you can have a > swap partition on the hard drive. Another advantage is that the > Fedora 11 distribution probably supports more sound cards than SoaS > ever could. Plus you don't have to deal with slow USB 1.0 ports, > flaky thumb drives, etc. I was under the impression that SoaS WAS Fedora 11 at that level of the software (just installed and configured a little differently). I haven't delved into SoaS packages in detail so I could be wrong here. As for swap, if you are repurposing discarded machines on any kind of scale you are going to end up with non-functional machines which are a great source of parts. Strip the RAM from the dead machines and upgrade the rest. This is something that even 10-12 year old kids can help with and probably enjoy. If it's part of a project where they get to take the machines home afterwards they will be even more motivated. My wish is to figure out ways that SoaS can take advantage of the hard drive while still remaining a portable environment. Hmm... Hey, here is a potentially useful 'hack'. Have SoaS detect the presence of a hard drive at boot time, look for partitions marked as Linux swap, and enable swapping on them. This could make 256Meg machines much more usable. Should be as safe as the contents of partitions with the Linux swap type are pretty much fair game to be overwritten at any reboot. The only case that I can think of where this would be a problem is if someone is doing Linux kernel dumps to swap space for diagnostic purposes. If they are doing this then they are uber-Linux wizards and are already having to deal with this potential issue in their normal usage of the machine. Anybody want to code/script this up? Or we could make a swap file on the flash stick (not in the Linux root filesystem though, too many levels of indirection for good performance). This could be setup to only be turned on when the physical memory in the machine is below a certain amount. Perhaps do both in the same system startup script. Check for hard drive swap partition(s) first and use if available. If no hard drive swap partitions are available, check memory of machine and use a swap file on flash if memory is low. This idea I really like (of course I'm biased). Bill Bogstad ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
