Re: [Sugar-devel] annotation support in abiword (was Fwd: uwog - r29358 - in abiword/trunk: . plugins/collab/backends/service/xp plugins/collab/core/packet/xp plugins/collab/core/plugin/xp plugins/col
On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 14:51, Gary Martin wrote: > Hi Tomeu, > > On 11 Oct 2010, at 09:25, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> would be nice to add support for annotations in Write now that Abiword >> supports it. > > True, but only if you promise that the Write UI will get easier to use and > not more difficult ;) I think we're falling towards featureitus while not > managing complexity. Same thing is happening to Calculate. When I give a talk about Sugar, one of its main features is "Clarity". The idea is to avoid saying "simplicity" because it may seem in conflict with our goal of low floor, no ceiling. I then explain that with clarity I mean that the features are layered in such a way that it's clear to the user how to do what she wants to do in each moment. Regards, Tomeu > FWIW, in the Calculate case, I've been considering the need for a really > simple calculator activity called Sums, with a very minimal feature set**. > Perhaps we could do the same for Write and have a minimal feature set > activity called Note (or Text if you don't mind that modern verb usage)? It > would just be a simpler wrapper over the Abiword libs. > > Still not sure this is the right way to go to keep Sugar usable for our > younger learners (where I think Sugar is most ideally placed), as having > multiple Activities for the same activity does introduce additional > maintenance, and testing load. > > ** Ideally we should try harder to better layer complexity in the Write, > Calculate, et al UIs so that you need to drill down to the more complex > features while the common/novice features are exposed early at the top level > — but it seams there's only so far you can take this (Write and Calculate > being on the cusp of this cliff edge). > > Regards, > --Gary > >> Regards, >> >> Tomeu >> >> -- Forwarded message -- >> From: J.M. Maurer >> Date: Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 17:30 >> Subject: Re: uwog - r29358 - in abiword/trunk: . >> plugins/collab/backends/service/xp plugins/collab/core/packet/xp >> plugins/collab/core/plugin/xp plugins/collab/core/session/xp >> plugins/opendocument plugins/opendocument/exp/xp >> plugins/opendocument/imp/xp src/af/gr/xp src/text/fmt/xp >> src/text/ptbl/xp src/wp/impexp/xp test/wp >> To: abiword-...@abisource.com >> >> >> Hi All! >> >> With this merge of Ben Martin's awesome work, AbiWord trunk (what will >> become AbiWord 2.9.0, the first 2.9 development release) has gained an >> awesome new feature: support for RDF. For those unfamiliar with RDF, you >> can read all about it on Wikipedia: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Description_Framework >> >> It defines a metadata standard that AbiWord now supports. This means you >> can annotate pieces of content with generic "metadata". For example you >> could attach contact data to a person who's name is mentioned in a text >> document. >> The use-cases are of course endless, so feel free to come up with cool >> use-cases, write patches, and we will gladly integrate them into AbiWord >> (or let you integrate them). >> >> A sample document containing RDF is attached. If you build AbiWord with >> debug support (--enable-debug) then you will find some fun RDF debugging >> menu items in the Collaborate menu (make sure to compile with >> --enable-plugins="collab"). There is no particular reason why this in >> the Collaborate menu, it just had to go somewhere temporarily. >> >> There is full RDF support in AbiWord's internal model to hold the >> metadata. This work also supports reading and writing the metadata to >> AbiWord's native file format .abw and to OpenDocument .odt documents. >> Adding metadata to a document that is collaboratively being worked on >> will automatically synchronize the metadata as well. >> >> Surely there are certain bugs that need to be hashed out, but that's to >> be expected in a development release :) >> >> Cheers! >> Marc >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 17:06 +0200, c...@abisource.com wrote: >>> Author: uwog >>> Date: 2010-10-09 17:06:33 +0200 (Sat, 09 Oct 2010) >>> New Revision: 29358 >>> >>> Added: >>> abiword/trunk/plugins/opendocument/exp/xp/ODe_RDFWriter.cpp >> [snip] >>> abiword/trunk/src/wp/impexp/xp/ie_imp_XML.h >>> Log: >>> svn merge -r29073:29323 >>> svn+ssh://svn.abisource.com/svnroot/abiword/branches/monkeyiqrdf/ . >> ___ >> Sugar-devel mailing list >> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] annotation support in abiword (was Fwd: uwog - r29358 - in abiword/trunk: . plugins/collab/backends/service/xp plugins/collab/core/packet/xp plugins/collab/core/plugin/xp plugins/col
Hi Gary, OK I just made a screenshot. You can download it from this location. http://www.abisource.com/~msevior/AnnotationSS.jpg The popup appears when you hover the mouse over the purple dotted line which shows that region of text has an annotation. Sorry the gimp removes the mouse marker when it takes the screenshot. The whole UI has more features. You place an annotation by selecting text and choosing "annotation" from either the "tools" menu or from the right click contaxt menu. If you right click on the annotated region you can pop up the annotation dialog which allows you alter the annotation or replace the current text with the content of the annotation. To really see how the UI works though it is best to actually try it. Most recent versions of linux carry abiword 2.8. Even Ubtuntu! If you run windows you can download it from here. http://www.abisource.com/download/ Cheers Martin PS. Yes I use AbiWord all the time in day job :-) On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Gary Martin wrote: > Hi Martin, > > On 12 Oct 2010, at 00:51, Martin Sevior wrote: > >> I think the main point of the annotation feature for Write will be >> allow teachers to correct children's writing. >> >> They can simply highlight a region and put in their correction or >> suggestion. Children can see the correction along with their original >> text. In abiword we do this with a dialog and a popup textbox but >> we've disabled dialogs in Write. I'd be interested in receiving >> suggestions for how to do this UI for Write and if it is wanted at >> all. > > Do you have any screen shots available showing the new Abiword annotation > features in action? I couldn't see any in the online documentation. > > Regards, > --Gary > >> Cheers >> >> Martin >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 10:33 AM, wrote: ** Ideally we should try harder to better layer complexity in the Write, Calculate, et al UIs so that you need to drill down to the more complex features while the common/novice features are exposed early at the top level — but it seams there's only so far you can take this (Write and Calculate being on the cusp of this cliff edge). >>> >>> Maybe this question would be better on IAEP or SUR because its about >>> pedagogy more than technology? >>> >>> More features just for features sake is not a good idea, Sugar is an >>> educational tool not an office productivity tool, not all new office >>> features need to be included. I would like to hear from teachers on this >>> question. They might, for example, like annotation in a paperless classroom >>> as a way of marking essays. >>> >>> I agree, we should try harder to layer complexity, in line with the goal of >>> low entry and high ceiling. >>> >>> I think that children handle complexity and incomplete information much >>> better than adults so its not necessary to give them cut down versions of >>> Activities. As long as they can ignore features that they do not need and >>> still get unobstructed access to the simplified features they are happy. >>> Adults however are more likely to get stressed if presented with too many >>> features. >>> >>> I looked at Calculate again. I am happy with the features. You can still do >>> 9+1=10 by ignoring the extra features. None of the menus obscure simple >>> calculator operation. If you select hexadecimal then 9+1=0xa but quitting >>> and resuming reverts to decimal operation so it seems experimenting is >>> likely to be harmless to simple calculator use. >>> >>> I share some responsibility for encouraging feature creep on TurtleArt. >>> Maybe complexity could be layered better but I dont thinks it needs a >>> version with it disabled. The goal should be that basic blocks, repeat, >>> forward, right, are the ones most obviously presented to the learner and no >>> amount of random clicking should make them not discoverable. Maybe the >>> pallettes can be reordered to emphasise beginner blocks. >>> >>> With write, the goal would be to emphasise the beginner tools and >>> deemphasise the advanced features, and make recovery from random clicking >>> easy. >>> >>> Tony >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Sugar-devel mailing list >>> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel >>> > ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] annotation support in abiword (was Fwd: uwog - r29358 - in abiword/trunk: . plugins/collab/backends/service/xp plugins/collab/core/packet/xp plugins/collab/core/plugin/xp plugins/col
Hi Martin, On 12 Oct 2010, at 00:51, Martin Sevior wrote: > I think the main point of the annotation feature for Write will be > allow teachers to correct children's writing. > > They can simply highlight a region and put in their correction or > suggestion. Children can see the correction along with their original > text. In abiword we do this with a dialog and a popup textbox but > we've disabled dialogs in Write. I'd be interested in receiving > suggestions for how to do this UI for Write and if it is wanted at > all. Do you have any screen shots available showing the new Abiword annotation features in action? I couldn't see any in the online documentation. Regards, --Gary > Cheers > > Martin > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 10:33 AM, wrote: >>> ** Ideally we should try harder to better layer complexity in the Write, >>> Calculate, et al UIs so that you need to drill down to the more complex >>> features while the common/novice features are exposed early at the top >>> level — but it seams there's only so far you can take this (Write and >>> Calculate being on the cusp of this cliff edge). >> >> Maybe this question would be better on IAEP or SUR because its about >> pedagogy more than technology? >> >> More features just for features sake is not a good idea, Sugar is an >> educational tool not an office productivity tool, not all new office >> features need to be included. I would like to hear from teachers on this >> question. They might, for example, like annotation in a paperless classroom >> as a way of marking essays. >> >> I agree, we should try harder to layer complexity, in line with the goal of >> low entry and high ceiling. >> >> I think that children handle complexity and incomplete information much >> better than adults so its not necessary to give them cut down versions of >> Activities. As long as they can ignore features that they do not need and >> still get unobstructed access to the simplified features they are happy. >> Adults however are more likely to get stressed if presented with too many >> features. >> >> I looked at Calculate again. I am happy with the features. You can still do >> 9+1=10 by ignoring the extra features. None of the menus obscure simple >> calculator operation. If you select hexadecimal then 9+1=0xa but quitting >> and resuming reverts to decimal operation so it seems experimenting is >> likely to be harmless to simple calculator use. >> >> I share some responsibility for encouraging feature creep on TurtleArt. >> Maybe complexity could be layered better but I dont thinks it needs a >> version with it disabled. The goal should be that basic blocks, repeat, >> forward, right, are the ones most obviously presented to the learner and no >> amount of random clicking should make them not discoverable. Maybe the >> pallettes can be reordered to emphasise beginner blocks. >> >> With write, the goal would be to emphasise the beginner tools and >> deemphasise the advanced features, and make recovery from random clicking >> easy. >> >> Tony >> >> >> ___ >> Sugar-devel mailing list >> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel >> ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] annotation support in abiword (was Fwd: uwog - r29358 - in abiword/trunk: . plugins/collab/backends/service/xp plugins/collab/core/packet/xp plugins/collab/core/plugin/xp plugins/col
I think the main point of the annotation feature for Write will be allow teachers to correct children's writing. They can simply highlight a region and put in their correction or suggestion. Children can see the correction along with their original text. In abiword we do this with a dialog and a popup textbox but we've disabled dialogs in Write. I'd be interested in receiving suggestions for how to do this UI for Write and if it is wanted at all. Cheers Martin On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 10:33 AM, wrote: >> ** Ideally we should try harder to better layer complexity in the Write, >> Calculate, et al UIs so that you need to drill down to the more complex >> features while the common/novice features are exposed early at the top >> level — but it seams there's only so far you can take this (Write and >> Calculate being on the cusp of this cliff edge). > > Maybe this question would be better on IAEP or SUR because its about > pedagogy more than technology? > > More features just for features sake is not a good idea, Sugar is an > educational tool not an office productivity tool, not all new office > features need to be included. I would like to hear from teachers on this > question. They might, for example, like annotation in a paperless classroom > as a way of marking essays. > > I agree, we should try harder to layer complexity, in line with the goal of > low entry and high ceiling. > > I think that children handle complexity and incomplete information much > better than adults so its not necessary to give them cut down versions of > Activities. As long as they can ignore features that they do not need and > still get unobstructed access to the simplified features they are happy. > Adults however are more likely to get stressed if presented with too many > features. > > I looked at Calculate again. I am happy with the features. You can still do > 9+1=10 by ignoring the extra features. None of the menus obscure simple > calculator operation. If you select hexadecimal then 9+1=0xa but quitting > and resuming reverts to decimal operation so it seems experimenting is > likely to be harmless to simple calculator use. > > I share some responsibility for encouraging feature creep on TurtleArt. > Maybe complexity could be layered better but I dont thinks it needs a > version with it disabled. The goal should be that basic blocks, repeat, > forward, right, are the ones most obviously presented to the learner and no > amount of random clicking should make them not discoverable. Maybe the > pallettes can be reordered to emphasise beginner blocks. > > With write, the goal would be to emphasise the beginner tools and > deemphasise the advanced features, and make recovery from random clicking > easy. > > Tony > > > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] annotation support in abiword (was Fwd: uwog - r29358 - in abiword/trunk: . plugins/collab/backends/service/xp plugins/collab/core/packet/xp plugins/collab/core/plugin/xp plugins/col
** Ideally we should try harder to better layer complexity in the Write, Calculate, et al UIs so that you need to drill down to the more complex features while the common/novice features are exposed early at the top level — but it seams there's only so far you can take this (Write and Calculate being on the cusp of this cliff edge). Maybe this question would be better on IAEP or SUR because its about pedagogy more than technology? More features just for features sake is not a good idea, Sugar is an educational tool not an office productivity tool, not all new office features need to be included. I would like to hear from teachers on this question. They might, for example, like annotation in a paperless classroom as a way of marking essays. I agree, we should try harder to layer complexity, in line with the goal of low entry and high ceiling. I think that children handle complexity and incomplete information much better than adults so its not necessary to give them cut down versions of Activities. As long as they can ignore features that they do not need and still get unobstructed access to the simplified features they are happy. Adults however are more likely to get stressed if presented with too many features. I looked at Calculate again. I am happy with the features. You can still do 9+1=10 by ignoring the extra features. None of the menus obscure simple calculator operation. If you select hexadecimal then 9+1=0xa but quitting and resuming reverts to decimal operation so it seems experimenting is likely to be harmless to simple calculator use. I share some responsibility for encouraging feature creep on TurtleArt. Maybe complexity could be layered better but I dont thinks it needs a version with it disabled. The goal should be that basic blocks, repeat, forward, right, are the ones most obviously presented to the learner and no amount of random clicking should make them not discoverable. Maybe the pallettes can be reordered to emphasise beginner blocks. With write, the goal would be to emphasise the beginner tools and deemphasise the advanced features, and make recovery from random clicking easy. Tony ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] annotation support in abiword (was Fwd: uwog - r29358 - in abiword/trunk: . plugins/collab/backends/service/xp plugins/collab/core/packet/xp plugins/collab/core/plugin/xp plugins/col
On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Gary Martin wrote: > Hi Tomeu, > > On 11 Oct 2010, at 09:25, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> would be nice to add support for annotations in Write now that Abiword >> supports it. > > True, but only if you promise that the Write UI will get easier to use and > not more difficult ;) I think we're falling towards featureitus while not > managing complexity. Same thing is happening to Calculate. And Turtle Art, for that matter. I am working on a very stripped down version, Tortugita, which is more in the spirit of the original goals. That said, I think the "family of activities" approach taken by TamTam is a nice way to give the learner headroom as they advance in terms of skills and ambitions. regards. -walter > > FWIW, in the Calculate case, I've been considering the need for a really > simple calculator activity called Sums, with a very minimal feature set**. > Perhaps we could do the same for Write and have a minimal feature set > activity called Note (or Text if you don't mind that modern verb usage)? It > would just be a simpler wrapper over the Abiword libs. > > Still not sure this is the right way to go to keep Sugar usable for our > younger learners (where I think Sugar is most ideally placed), as having > multiple Activities for the same activity does introduce additional > maintenance, and testing load. > > ** Ideally we should try harder to better layer complexity in the Write, > Calculate, et al UIs so that you need to drill down to the more complex > features while the common/novice features are exposed early at the top level > — but it seams there's only so far you can take this (Write and Calculate > being on the cusp of this cliff edge). > > Regards, > --Gary > >> Regards, >> >> Tomeu >> >> -- Forwarded message -- >> From: J.M. Maurer >> Date: Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 17:30 >> Subject: Re: uwog - r29358 - in abiword/trunk: . >> plugins/collab/backends/service/xp plugins/collab/core/packet/xp >> plugins/collab/core/plugin/xp plugins/collab/core/session/xp >> plugins/opendocument plugins/opendocument/exp/xp >> plugins/opendocument/imp/xp src/af/gr/xp src/text/fmt/xp >> src/text/ptbl/xp src/wp/impexp/xp test/wp >> To: abiword-...@abisource.com >> >> >> Hi All! >> >> With this merge of Ben Martin's awesome work, AbiWord trunk (what will >> become AbiWord 2.9.0, the first 2.9 development release) has gained an >> awesome new feature: support for RDF. For those unfamiliar with RDF, you >> can read all about it on Wikipedia: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Description_Framework >> >> It defines a metadata standard that AbiWord now supports. This means you >> can annotate pieces of content with generic "metadata". For example you >> could attach contact data to a person who's name is mentioned in a text >> document. >> The use-cases are of course endless, so feel free to come up with cool >> use-cases, write patches, and we will gladly integrate them into AbiWord >> (or let you integrate them). >> >> A sample document containing RDF is attached. If you build AbiWord with >> debug support (--enable-debug) then you will find some fun RDF debugging >> menu items in the Collaborate menu (make sure to compile with >> --enable-plugins="collab"). There is no particular reason why this in >> the Collaborate menu, it just had to go somewhere temporarily. >> >> There is full RDF support in AbiWord's internal model to hold the >> metadata. This work also supports reading and writing the metadata to >> AbiWord's native file format .abw and to OpenDocument .odt documents. >> Adding metadata to a document that is collaboratively being worked on >> will automatically synchronize the metadata as well. >> >> Surely there are certain bugs that need to be hashed out, but that's to >> be expected in a development release :) >> >> Cheers! >> Marc >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 17:06 +0200, c...@abisource.com wrote: >>> Author: uwog >>> Date: 2010-10-09 17:06:33 +0200 (Sat, 09 Oct 2010) >>> New Revision: 29358 >>> >>> Added: >>> abiword/trunk/plugins/opendocument/exp/xp/ODe_RDFWriter.cpp >> [snip] >>> abiword/trunk/src/wp/impexp/xp/ie_imp_XML.h >>> Log: >>> svn merge -r29073:29323 >>> svn+ssh://svn.abisource.com/svnroot/abiword/branches/monkeyiqrdf/ . >> ___ >> Sugar-devel mailing list >> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] annotation support in abiword (was Fwd: uwog - r29358 - in abiword/trunk: . plugins/collab/backends/service/xp plugins/collab/core/packet/xp plugins/collab/core/plugin/xp plugins/col
Hi Tomeu, On 11 Oct 2010, at 09:25, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > Hi, > > would be nice to add support for annotations in Write now that Abiword > supports it. True, but only if you promise that the Write UI will get easier to use and not more difficult ;) I think we're falling towards featureitus while not managing complexity. Same thing is happening to Calculate. FWIW, in the Calculate case, I've been considering the need for a really simple calculator activity called Sums, with a very minimal feature set**. Perhaps we could do the same for Write and have a minimal feature set activity called Note (or Text if you don't mind that modern verb usage)? It would just be a simpler wrapper over the Abiword libs. Still not sure this is the right way to go to keep Sugar usable for our younger learners (where I think Sugar is most ideally placed), as having multiple Activities for the same activity does introduce additional maintenance, and testing load. ** Ideally we should try harder to better layer complexity in the Write, Calculate, et al UIs so that you need to drill down to the more complex features while the common/novice features are exposed early at the top level — but it seams there's only so far you can take this (Write and Calculate being on the cusp of this cliff edge). Regards, --Gary > Regards, > > Tomeu > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: J.M. Maurer > Date: Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 17:30 > Subject: Re: uwog - r29358 - in abiword/trunk: . > plugins/collab/backends/service/xp plugins/collab/core/packet/xp > plugins/collab/core/plugin/xp plugins/collab/core/session/xp > plugins/opendocument plugins/opendocument/exp/xp > plugins/opendocument/imp/xp src/af/gr/xp src/text/fmt/xp > src/text/ptbl/xp src/wp/impexp/xp test/wp > To: abiword-...@abisource.com > > > Hi All! > > With this merge of Ben Martin's awesome work, AbiWord trunk (what will > become AbiWord 2.9.0, the first 2.9 development release) has gained an > awesome new feature: support for RDF. For those unfamiliar with RDF, you > can read all about it on Wikipedia: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Description_Framework > > It defines a metadata standard that AbiWord now supports. This means you > can annotate pieces of content with generic "metadata". For example you > could attach contact data to a person who's name is mentioned in a text > document. > The use-cases are of course endless, so feel free to come up with cool > use-cases, write patches, and we will gladly integrate them into AbiWord > (or let you integrate them). > > A sample document containing RDF is attached. If you build AbiWord with > debug support (--enable-debug) then you will find some fun RDF debugging > menu items in the Collaborate menu (make sure to compile with > --enable-plugins="collab"). There is no particular reason why this in > the Collaborate menu, it just had to go somewhere temporarily. > > There is full RDF support in AbiWord's internal model to hold the > metadata. This work also supports reading and writing the metadata to > AbiWord's native file format .abw and to OpenDocument .odt documents. > Adding metadata to a document that is collaboratively being worked on > will automatically synchronize the metadata as well. > > Surely there are certain bugs that need to be hashed out, but that's to > be expected in a development release :) > > Cheers! > Marc > > > > > On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 17:06 +0200, c...@abisource.com wrote: >> Author: uwog >> Date: 2010-10-09 17:06:33 +0200 (Sat, 09 Oct 2010) >> New Revision: 29358 >> >> Added: >>abiword/trunk/plugins/opendocument/exp/xp/ODe_RDFWriter.cpp > [snip] >>abiword/trunk/src/wp/impexp/xp/ie_imp_XML.h >> Log: >> svn merge -r29073:29323 >> svn+ssh://svn.abisource.com/svnroot/abiword/branches/monkeyiqrdf/ . > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
