Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
On 01/15/2010 03:48 PM, Gerald Ardito wrote: Walter and Caroline, I have had a completely different experience with color picking. When we give the XOs to the students for the first time, they love picking their names and colors. It is not disruptive at all. The students report that they feel they 'own' the XOs more as a result. Just my two cents. Gerald I must agree, I do not find it disruptive. The kids liked to choose their color. And with the new color picker, I think it even gets more value as it has not this random character any more. Regards, Simon ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Simon Schampijer si...@schampijer.de wrote: Hi Walter, as far as I know there are no more design decisions to make for this Feature. I did raise a new question: should we eliminate the color selector altogether in the initialization screen. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. I have found that having children choose colors at the beginning is disruptive (although they enjoy it). If colors were randomly assigned then that step could be eliminated. The Control Panel could be used (at a time determined by the teacher) to change the colors. Of course, we'd want to get more input from the field, but I think this simplifies things... Can you update the Feature page, especially the detailed description to the latest state? Do we have the shortcut and is it possible to have the random selection? If there are open questions we can clear them at the design meeting this Saturday [1]. done. Detailed Description Buttons are added to either side of the XO icon currently used to randomly cycle through the valid-XO-color list. On the left is a button that cycles through the list in one direction. On the right is a button that cycles through the list in the other direction. Smaller XO icons to the left and right of the new buttons show a preview of the colors that will be selected if the button (or icon) is pressed. There is also a keyboard shortcut (Ctrl-Z) to undo the last change. Thanks, Simon [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/0.88_Meeting I will try to join the Sat. discussion. regards. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 14:58, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Simon Schampijer si...@schampijer.de wrote: Hi Walter, as far as I know there are no more design decisions to make for this Feature. I did raise a new question: should we eliminate the color selector altogether in the initialization screen. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. I have found that having children choose colors at the beginning is disruptive (although they enjoy it). If colors were randomly assigned then that step could be eliminated. The Control Panel could be used (at a time determined by the teacher) to change the colors. Of course, we'd want to get more input from the field, but I think this simplifies things... I also like this possibility. I think to remember reading that the moment when children received their laptops it was a bit hard to conduct them with some order. Removing a non-essential step may help there. Regards, Tomeu Can you update the Feature page, especially the detailed description to the latest state? Do we have the shortcut and is it possible to have the random selection? If there are open questions we can clear them at the design meeting this Saturday [1]. done. Detailed Description Buttons are added to either side of the XO icon currently used to randomly cycle through the valid-XO-color list. On the left is a button that cycles through the list in one direction. On the right is a button that cycles through the list in the other direction. Smaller XO icons to the left and right of the new buttons show a preview of the colors that will be selected if the button (or icon) is pressed. There is also a keyboard shortcut (Ctrl-Z) to undo the last change. Thanks, Simon [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/0.88_Meeting I will try to join the Sat. discussion. regards. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- «Sugar Labs is anyone who participates in improving and using Sugar. What Sugar Labs does is determined by the participants.» - David Farning ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Simon Schampijer si...@schampijer.de wrote: Hi Walter, as far as I know there are no more design decisions to make for this Feature. I did raise a new question: should we eliminate the color selector altogether in the initialization screen. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. I have found that having children choose colors at the beginning is disruptive (although they enjoy it). If colors were randomly assigned then that step could be eliminated. The Control Panel could be used (at a time determined by the teacher) to change the colors. Of course, we'd want to get more input from the field, but I think this simplifies things... I agree. Picking a color first thing when you are doing a demo is great, because it shows off the individualization of the system. However, when you are in a class situation it is distracting and since some kids are fast and others very slow at this task it leads to spread in where people are right away. It might be better to have it as something of an easter egg. Something they can explore. My one concern is will we have rebellion? Kids who just can't stand having pink and purple or just can't stand the fact that someone else has their favorite colors. That might be even more disruptive. Can you update the Feature page, especially the detailed description to the latest state? Do we have the shortcut and is it possible to have the random selection? If there are open questions we can clear them at the design meeting this Saturday [1]. done. Detailed Description Buttons are added to either side of the XO icon currently used to randomly cycle through the valid-XO-color list. On the left is a button that cycles through the list in one direction. On the right is a button that cycles through the list in the other direction. Smaller XO icons to the left and right of the new buttons show a preview of the colors that will be selected if the button (or icon) is pressed. There is also a keyboard shortcut (Ctrl-Z) to undo the last change. Thanks, Simon [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/0.88_Meeting I will try to join the Sat. discussion. regards. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
On 15.01.2010, at 14:58, Walter Bender wrote: On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Simon Schampijer si...@schampijer.de wrote: Hi Walter, as far as I know there are no more design decisions to make for this Feature. I did raise a new question: should we eliminate the color selector altogether in the initialization screen. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. I have found that having children choose colors at the beginning is disruptive (although they enjoy it). If colors were randomly assigned then that step could be eliminated. The Control Panel could be used (at a time determined by the teacher) to change the colors. Of course, we'd want to get more input from the field, but I think this simplifies things... +1 - Bert - ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
Walter and Caroline, I have had a completely different experience with color picking. When we give the XOs to the students for the first time, they love picking their names and colors. It is not disruptive at all. The students report that they feel they 'own' the XOs more as a result. Just my two cents. Gerald On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Caroline Meeks solutiongr...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Simon Schampijer si...@schampijer.de wrote: Hi Walter, as far as I know there are no more design decisions to make for this Feature. I did raise a new question: should we eliminate the color selector altogether in the initialization screen. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. I have found that having children choose colors at the beginning is disruptive (although they enjoy it). If colors were randomly assigned then that step could be eliminated. The Control Panel could be used (at a time determined by the teacher) to change the colors. Of course, we'd want to get more input from the field, but I think this simplifies things... I agree. Picking a color first thing when you are doing a demo is great, because it shows off the individualization of the system. However, when you are in a class situation it is distracting and since some kids are fast and others very slow at this task it leads to spread in where people are right away. It might be better to have it as something of an easter egg. Something they can explore. My one concern is will we have rebellion? Kids who just can't stand having pink and purple or just can't stand the fact that someone else has their favorite colors. That might be even more disruptive. Can you update the Feature page, especially the detailed description to the latest state? Do we have the shortcut and is it possible to have the random selection? If there are open questions we can clear them at the design meeting this Saturday [1]. done. Detailed Description Buttons are added to either side of the XO icon currently used to randomly cycle through the valid-XO-color list. On the left is a button that cycles through the list in one direction. On the right is a button that cycles through the list in the other direction. Smaller XO icons to the left and right of the new buttons show a preview of the colors that will be selected if the button (or icon) is pressed. There is also a keyboard shortcut (Ctrl-Z) to undo the last change. Thanks, Simon [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/0.88_Meeting I will try to join the Sat. discussion. regards. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Caroline Meeks Solution Grove carol...@solutiongrove.com 617-500-3488 - Office 505-213-3268 - Fax ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
On 12/06/2009 11:05 PM, Walter Bender wrote: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 8:54 PM, Simon Schampijersi...@schampijer.de wrote: On 11/12/2009 09:32 AM, Walter Bender wrote: Thanks for all the feedback. Hi Walter, thanks for your work on this Feature and for using the Feature Policy. Your Feature has been accepted for the 0.88 sucrose release cycle for the following reasons: - your Feature is supported by the community (as seen in this email thread) and backed up by many requests from the field - a design is available and has been discussed (in this thread too) - you have been following the Feature policy guidelines [1] - a full Feature page is available [2] yeah :) The Feature has been accepted and is listed at the 0.88 Feature page [3]. It would be great to land this Feature in the next development release (Sucrose 0.87.2) [4]. Please work with the maintainer of the Sugar module [5] (Tomeu) to include it. [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Policy [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Enhanced_color_selector [3] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Feature_List [4] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Roadmap#Schedule [5] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Release/Modules Should be doable, depending on how ambitious we get about refactoring me of the existing code. Of course. Just follow the review process and I am sure we can land it in time ;p A few questions: - in the Feature page you mention the 'random selector', is this option still available in the latest design? This is still in the new design in that I didn't remove it from the code. (If you click on the central XO icon, you get a random color as before.) It is a decision I leave to the design team. Ok. Maybe the design team want to comment if they think that the random functionality is a good one to have. - you mention a keyboard shortcut (Ctrl-Z), which is a standard way to undo an action: is it right that the undo option is removed and that this shortcut is then not needed anymore, too? There is an invisiable icon that provides the undo fuctionality. Invisible because you want to use the accelerator of the widget? How would one know about the shortcut if there is no visible indication? In general having an undo functionality is great - here it might be confusing. I mean we have an option to dismiss the whole CP section if we are not happy at all with the color we have chosen. think thatit is important if we keep the random function.) I do have a technical probem to sort out with Tomeu regarding the various widgets I am using for the buttons. I cannot seem to find a way to include both keyboard accelration and the ability to update the icon color either in Suar toolkit or in the hulahop code. Hence the comment above about more invasive changes. Ok. Regards, Simon ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter/Simon, On 7 Dec 2009, at 10:37, Simon Schampijer wrote: On 12/06/2009 11:05 PM, Walter Bender wrote: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 8:54 PM, Simon Schampijersi...@schampijer.de wrote: A few questions: - in the Feature page you mention the 'random selector', is this option still available in the latest design? This is still in the new design in that I didn't remove it from the code. (If you click on the central XO icon, you get a random color as before.) It is a decision I leave to the design team. Ok. Maybe the design team want to comment if they think that the random functionality is a good one to have. Sorry, not quite following the 'random functionality' comment. Just to check, my understanding that 'forwards' and 'backwards' are hooked up to change a seed value used for a random calculation of the fill/stroke colour choices (an almost infinitely large carousel of random choices, left or right). Where the buttons act something like the below image to maintain the current behaviour where clicking the large Xo icon still progresses forward: That's my understanding as well. I think that keeping it simple, with only next and previous controls, is probably the right way to go. Allowing a click to generate a new random color is essentially duplicate functionality, and without an obvious undo which is the hallmark of the new design in the first place. If we really want to retain functionality when clicking on the large XO (for familiarity to those who used the old design), we could treat it the same as a click on the next button. Eben Regards, --Gary ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter/Simon, On 7 Dec 2009, at 10:37, Simon Schampijer wrote: On 12/06/2009 11:05 PM, Walter Bender wrote: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 8:54 PM, Simon Schampijersi...@schampijer.de wrote: A few questions: - in the Feature page you mention the 'random selector', is this option still available in the latest design? This is still in the new design in that I didn't remove it from the code. (If you click on the central XO icon, you get a random color as before.) It is a decision I leave to the design team. Ok. Maybe the design team want to comment if they think that the random functionality is a good one to have. Sorry, not quite following the 'random functionality' comment. Just to check, my understanding that 'forwards' and 'backwards' are hooked up to change a seed value used for a random calculation of the fill/stroke colour choices (an almost infinitely large carousel of random choices, left or right). Where the buttons act something like the below image to maintain the current behaviour where clicking the large Xo icon still progresses forward: Regards, --Gary Just to bring clarity to what I have implemented so far: (1) clicking on the left xo icon or the icon causes the color pair to cycle to the previous color pair in the list of colors found in xocolor.py (2) clicking on the right xo icon or the icon causes the color pair to cycle to the next color pair in the list of colors found in xocolor.py (3) clicking on the large xo icon causes a random color pair to be selected from the list in xocolor.py and resets the index used in #1 and #2. (Essentially the same as the present behavior). There is also a hidden button (a temporary kludge) to undo (useful for undoing the random selection). The intention is to associate a key (Ctrl-z) to the undo function. Of course, you can still back out of the whole thing by canceling the changes in the manner currently supported: hitting x instead of ✓ on the panel. Comments on the above: (a) The order of the colors in xocolor.py is reason to cycle through. If you get a close approximation from random, you can fine-tune your selection by searching through adjacent colors. (b) I don't know how to get icons that can both be recolored and use accelerator keys, hence the kludge above. For accessibility purposes, it would be nice to add short-cuts to all the buttons in the control panel. (c) Gary, I tried the stacked icons vs running them in a row. The stacked icons didn't do it for me (or Eben, as I recall). The current configuration is xo XO xo. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter/Simon, On 7 Dec 2009, at 10:37, Simon Schampijer wrote: On 12/06/2009 11:05 PM, Walter Bender wrote: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 8:54 PM, Simon Schampijersi...@schampijer.de wrote: A few questions: - in the Feature page you mention the 'random selector', is this option still available in the latest design? This is still in the new design in that I didn't remove it from the code. (If you click on the central XO icon, you get a random color as before.) It is a decision I leave to the design team. Ok. Maybe the design team want to comment if they think that the random functionality is a good one to have. Sorry, not quite following the 'random functionality' comment. Just to check, my understanding that 'forwards' and 'backwards' are hooked up to change a seed value used for a random calculation of the fill/stroke colour choices (an almost infinitely large carousel of random choices, left or right). Where the buttons act something like the below image to maintain the current behaviour where clicking the large Xo icon still progresses forward: Regards, --Gary Just to bring clarity to what I have implemented so far: (1) clicking on the left xo icon or the icon causes the color pair to cycle to the previous color pair in the list of colors found in xocolor.py (2) clicking on the right xo icon or the icon causes the color pair to cycle to the next color pair in the list of colors found in xocolor.py (3) clicking on the large xo icon causes a random color pair to be selected from the list in xocolor.py and resets the index used in #1 and #2. (Essentially the same as the present behavior). There is also a hidden button (a temporary kludge) to undo (useful for undoing the random selection). The intention is to associate a key (Ctrl-z) to the undo function. Of course, you can still back out of the whole thing by canceling the changes in the manner currently supported: hitting x instead of ✓ on the panel. Yeah, I wouldn't place too much home in an undo shortcut being discovered, but you're right about the ability to cancel in the settings panel. The same is not true, of course, on first start. Comments on the above: (a) The order of the colors in xocolor.py is reason to cycle through. If you get a close approximation from random, you can fine-tune your selection by searching through adjacent colors. Perhaps if we remove the random function, we could support press-and-hold to cycle more quickly through the color space. I do see the arguments for retaining random, of course, so maybe the implementation you have is the right one. (b) I don't know how to get icons that can both be recolored and use accelerator keys, hence the kludge above. For accessibility purposes, it would be nice to add short-cuts to all the buttons in the control panel. (c) Gary, I tried the stacked icons vs running them in a row. The stacked icons didn't do it for me (or Eben, as I recall). The current configuration is xo XO xo. Yeah, I think my preference was for: ( xo) XO (xo ) with the ( xo) units reacting as one big button. That is, you could click on either the XO or the arrow. I believe this is how it functions now, apart from the order of the xos and arrows being reversed. Another possibility would be to make that more explicit by using text/icon buttons, instead of just icons, like: ( xo Back ) XO ( xo Next) In other words, the buttons would be the usual pill-shaped gray buttons, with a colored XO for an icon and the word next or back. That would help reduce confusion about which XO is My XO. Eben -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
Hi Walter, On 7 Dec 2009, at 17:52, Walter Bender wrote: On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter/Simon, On 7 Dec 2009, at 10:37, Simon Schampijer wrote: On 12/06/2009 11:05 PM, Walter Bender wrote: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 8:54 PM, Simon Schampijersi...@schampijer.de wrote: A few questions: - in the Feature page you mention the 'random selector', is this option still available in the latest design? This is still in the new design in that I didn't remove it from the code. (If you click on the central XO icon, you get a random color as before.) It is a decision I leave to the design team. Ok. Maybe the design team want to comment if they think that the random functionality is a good one to have. Sorry, not quite following the 'random functionality' comment. Just to check, my understanding that 'forwards' and 'backwards' are hooked up to change a seed value used for a random calculation of the fill/stroke colour choices (an almost infinitely large carousel of random choices, left or right). Where the buttons act something like the below image to maintain the current behaviour where clicking the large Xo icon still progresses forward: Regards, --Gary Just to bring clarity to what I have implemented so far: (1) clicking on the left xo icon or the icon causes the color pair to cycle to the previous color pair in the list of colors found in xocolor.py (2) clicking on the right xo icon or the icon causes the color pair to cycle to the next color pair in the list of colors found in xocolor.py (3) clicking on the large xo icon causes a random color pair to be selected from the list in xocolor.py and resets the index used in #1 and #2. (Essentially the same as the present behavior). There is also a hidden button (a temporary kludge) to undo (useful for undoing the random selection). The intention is to associate a key (Ctrl-z) to the undo function. A... Hmmm. Now, for me I think that implementation would be rather an unexpected/confusing behaviour, click the large XO and the little ones would seem to randomly change as well. Now I understand why the videos you posted caused me some confusion (I was expecting 3 colour choices in the xo XO xo to always scroll left or right). Do you have a clone somewhere on git.sugarlabs.org I can look at? As per previous button mockup image, marching through a random set, left or right, would seem to provide the existing behaviour, plus the equivalent of an undo, and a mini-me preview for what would be next/before undo. Sorry for the confusion. Of course, you can still back out of the whole thing by canceling the changes in the manner currently supported: hitting x instead of ✓ on the panel. Comments on the above: (a) The order of the colors in xocolor.py is reason to cycle through. If you get a close approximation from random, you can fine-tune your selection by searching through adjacent colors. But only fine tune in 1 dimension? Would have to scroll a long way to see a change in the other fill/stroke colour. (b) I don't know how to get icons that can both be recolored and use accelerator keys, hence the kludge above. For accessibility purposes, it would be nice to add short-cuts to all the buttons in the control panel. (c) Gary, I tried the stacked icons vs running them in a row. The stacked icons didn't do it for me (or Eben, as I recall). The current configuration is xo XO xo. OK, sorry missed that. FWIW, I think my main objection was that for the control panel positioning case, the XO was no longer central, being off centre to the right. I guess this could be easily fixed by moving the xo XO xo widgets down below the grey text Click to change your color: so the text does no longer pushes the widgets off to the right. Regards, --Gary ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
There is a patch attached to http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1592 -walter On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter, On 7 Dec 2009, at 17:52, Walter Bender wrote: On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter/Simon, On 7 Dec 2009, at 10:37, Simon Schampijer wrote: On 12/06/2009 11:05 PM, Walter Bender wrote: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 8:54 PM, Simon Schampijersi...@schampijer.de wrote: A few questions: - in the Feature page you mention the 'random selector', is this option still available in the latest design? This is still in the new design in that I didn't remove it from the code. (If you click on the central XO icon, you get a random color as before.) It is a decision I leave to the design team. Ok. Maybe the design team want to comment if they think that the random functionality is a good one to have. Sorry, not quite following the 'random functionality' comment. Just to check, my understanding that 'forwards' and 'backwards' are hooked up to change a seed value used for a random calculation of the fill/stroke colour choices (an almost infinitely large carousel of random choices, left or right). Where the buttons act something like the below image to maintain the current behaviour where clicking the large Xo icon still progresses forward: Regards, --Gary Just to bring clarity to what I have implemented so far: (1) clicking on the left xo icon or the icon causes the color pair to cycle to the previous color pair in the list of colors found in xocolor.py (2) clicking on the right xo icon or the icon causes the color pair to cycle to the next color pair in the list of colors found in xocolor.py (3) clicking on the large xo icon causes a random color pair to be selected from the list in xocolor.py and resets the index used in #1 and #2. (Essentially the same as the present behavior). There is also a hidden button (a temporary kludge) to undo (useful for undoing the random selection). The intention is to associate a key (Ctrl-z) to the undo function. A... Hmmm. Now, for me I think that implementation would be rather an unexpected/confusing behaviour, click the large XO and the little ones would seem to randomly change as well. Now I understand why the videos you posted caused me some confusion (I was expecting 3 colour choices in the xo XO xo to always scroll left or right). Do you have a clone somewhere on git.sugarlabs.org I can look at? As per previous button mockup image, marching through a random set, left or right, would seem to provide the existing behaviour, plus the equivalent of an undo, and a mini-me preview for what would be next/before undo. Sorry for the confusion. Of course, you can still back out of the whole thing by canceling the changes in the manner currently supported: hitting x instead of ✓ on the panel. Comments on the above: (a) The order of the colors in xocolor.py is reason to cycle through. If you get a close approximation from random, you can fine-tune your selection by searching through adjacent colors. But only fine tune in 1 dimension? Would have to scroll a long way to see a change in the other fill/stroke colour. (b) I don't know how to get icons that can both be recolored and use accelerator keys, hence the kludge above. For accessibility purposes, it would be nice to add short-cuts to all the buttons in the control panel. (c) Gary, I tried the stacked icons vs running them in a row. The stacked icons didn't do it for me (or Eben, as I recall). The current configuration is xo XO xo. OK, sorry missed that. FWIW, I think my main objection was that for the control panel positioning case, the XO was no longer central, being off centre to the right. I guess this could be easily fixed by moving the xo XO xo widgets down below the grey text Click to change your color: so the text does no longer pushes the widgets off to the right. Regards, --Gary -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
On 11/12/2009 09:32 AM, Walter Bender wrote: Thanks for all the feedback. Hi Walter, thanks for your work on this Feature and for using the Feature Policy. Your Feature has been accepted for the 0.88 sucrose release cycle for the following reasons: - your Feature is supported by the community (as seen in this email thread) and backed up by many requests from the field - a design is available and has been discussed (in this thread too) - you have been following the Feature policy guidelines [1] - a full Feature page is available [2] The Feature has been accepted and is listed at the 0.88 Feature page [3]. It would be great to land this Feature in the next development release (Sucrose 0.87.2) [4]. Please work with the maintainer of the Sugar module [5] (Tomeu) to include it. [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Policy [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Enhanced_color_selector [3] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Feature_List [4] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Roadmap#Schedule [5] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Release/Modules A few questions: - in the Feature page you mention the 'random selector', is this option still available in the latest design? - you mention a keyboard shortcut (Ctrl-Z), which is a standard way to undo an action: is it right that the undo option is removed and that this shortcut is then not needed anymore, too? Thanks, Simon ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
On 11/12/2009 11:00 AM, Carlo Falciola wrote: +1 for me for Keyboard... maybe language should be in by default ciao carlo --- Gio 12/11/09, Walter Benderwalter.ben...@gmail.com ha scritto: Da: Walter Benderwalter.ben...@gmail.com Oggetto: Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector A: Gary C Marting...@garycmartin.com, Eben Eliasoneben.elia...@gmail.com Cc: Sugar-dev Develsugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org, Carlo Falciolacfalci...@yahoo.it Data: Giovedì 12 novembre 2009, 09:32 Thanks for all the feedback. I'll post some more videos of the different layout ideas (not sure how to stack the buttons, but I am sure 30 seconds of Tomeu time will resolve that one). On a related note, I've also updated the initial dialog which presumably should use the same layout as we settle on for the control panel. Carlo suggested we offer a language/keyboard setting option to make available in SoaS images. I'd like to find a way to do this that makes in unobtrusive. I was thinking of just added a button at the bottom of the first screen that prompts for Name. -walter We should open a new thread for this discussion, it will be lost otherwise. Regards, Simon ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 8:54 PM, Simon Schampijer si...@schampijer.de wrote: On 11/12/2009 09:32 AM, Walter Bender wrote: Thanks for all the feedback. Hi Walter, thanks for your work on this Feature and for using the Feature Policy. Your Feature has been accepted for the 0.88 sucrose release cycle for the following reasons: - your Feature is supported by the community (as seen in this email thread) and backed up by many requests from the field - a design is available and has been discussed (in this thread too) - you have been following the Feature policy guidelines [1] - a full Feature page is available [2] yeah :) The Feature has been accepted and is listed at the 0.88 Feature page [3]. It would be great to land this Feature in the next development release (Sucrose 0.87.2) [4]. Please work with the maintainer of the Sugar module [5] (Tomeu) to include it. [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Policy [2] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Enhanced_color_selector [3] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Feature_List [4] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.88/Roadmap#Schedule [5] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Release/Modules Should be doable, depending on how ambitious we get about refactoring me of the existing code. A few questions: - in the Feature page you mention the 'random selector', is this option still available in the latest design? This is still in the new design in that I didn't remove it from the code. (If you click on the central XO icon, you get a random color as before.) It is a decision I leave to the design team. - you mention a keyboard shortcut (Ctrl-Z), which is a standard way to undo an action: is it right that the undo option is removed and that this shortcut is then not needed anymore, too? There is an invisiable icon that provides the undo fuctionality. (I think thatit is important if we keep the random function.) I do have a technical probem to sort out with Tomeu regarding the various widgets I am using for the buttons. I cannot seem to find a way to include both keyboard accelration and the ability to update the icon color either in Suar toolkit or in the hulahop code. Hence the comment above about more invasive changes. Thanks, Simon Thank you. -walter ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll post some more videos of the different layout ideas (not sure how to stack the buttons, but I am sure 30 seconds of Tomeu time will resolve that one). On a related note, I've also updated the initial dialog which presumably should use the same layout as we settle on for the control panel. Carlo suggested we offer a language/keyboard setting option to make available in SoaS images. I'd like to find a way to do this that makes in unobtrusive. I was thinking of just added a button at the bottom of the first screen that prompts for Name. -walter On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Eben Eliason eben.elia...@gmail.com wrote: Very nice! The ability to go backward is a huge improvement. I have a few thoughts on the layout. I'd suggest putting the arrows on the outside, with the smaller (presumably cell size) XOs just to the left and right of the large one. I'd also suggest making the arrow buttons smaller, so they don't overpower the interface (right now they actually appear larger than cell size; I think even showing them at the size they appear in the Journal, or in menus, might suffice). I'm glad to see that clicking the arrows or the small XOs works! Eben On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter, On 11 Nov 2009, at 17:42, Walter Bender wrote: I just posted another version (no undo) and I think more clarity as to what is going on... You can click the buttons or the small XOs. Yes, fab, that's much clearer, even for a static view. Here's a quick mockup at keeping the large buddy icon central so it matches the usual zoom presentation of your buddy icon: Regards, --Gary -walter On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter, On 11 Nov 2009, at 15:48, Walter Bender wrote: I made a patch to the color selector on the About Me panel to make it a little easier to navigate the color selections. Please see my screen cast at http://dailymotion.virgilio.it/video/xb42um_color-selector_tech. I needed to watch through a number of times before I could work out the logic for the colours of the two smaller buddy icons. First couple of times through I thought one was a swapped fill/stroke, and the other was a 'light' version, then third time through I decided they must all just be random, finally I twigged that it was a scrolling history moving from right to left (small -- big -- small). Quick thoughts: - What you have now would be visually understandable after a single click if you added a brief transition animation so that the icons scroll left/right and resize (like a carousel). - Not convinced you need the undo icon if you can add the transition animation, it feels slightly odd at the moment that the undo is right next to the yet too be seen new colour combination (perhaps it could go above or below the centre icon if it really needs to stay in the design). - The alternative is to have N small buddy icons around the central large icon, where the small icons are a close variation of the central large icon colours. Clicking the centre icon picks a completely new random base set of colours; clicking any small icon moves it to the centre large position, and generates a new set of small variants. The colour variants could just be +/- small random steps from the main base colours, or have some spacial meaning (left/right could be +/- fill colour, up/down could be +/- stroke colour). Regards, --Gary -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
+1 for me for Keyboard... maybe language should be in by default ciao carlo --- Gio 12/11/09, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com ha scritto: Da: Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com Oggetto: Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector A: Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com, Eben Eliason eben.elia...@gmail.com Cc: Sugar-dev Devel sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org, Carlo Falciola cfalci...@yahoo.it Data: Giovedì 12 novembre 2009, 09:32 Thanks for all the feedback. I'll post some more videos of the different layout ideas (not sure how to stack the buttons, but I am sure 30 seconds of Tomeu time will resolve that one). On a related note, I've also updated the initial dialog which presumably should use the same layout as we settle on for the control panel. Carlo suggested we offer a language/keyboard setting option to make available in SoaS images. I'd like to find a way to do this that makes in unobtrusive. I was thinking of just added a button at the bottom of the first screen that prompts for Name. -walter On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Eben Eliason eben.elia...@gmail.com wrote: Very nice! The ability to go backward is a huge improvement. I have a few thoughts on the layout. I'd suggest putting the arrows on the outside, with the smaller (presumably cell size) XOs just to the left and right of the large one. I'd also suggest making the arrow buttons smaller, so they don't overpower the interface (right now they actually appear larger than cell size; I think even showing them at the size they appear in the Journal, or in menus, might suffice). I'm glad to see that clicking the arrows or the small XOs works! Eben On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter, On 11 Nov 2009, at 17:42, Walter Bender wrote: I just posted another version (no undo) and I think more clarity as to what is going on... You can click the buttons or the small XOs. Yes, fab, that's much clearer, even for a static view. Here's a quick mockup at keeping the large buddy icon central so it matches the usual zoom presentation of your buddy icon: Regards, --Gary -walter On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter, On 11 Nov 2009, at 15:48, Walter Bender wrote: I made a patch to the color selector on the About Me panel to make it a little easier to navigate the color selections. Please see my screen cast at http://dailymotion.virgilio.it/video/xb42um_color-selector_tech. I needed to watch through a number of times before I could work out the logic for the colours of the two smaller buddy icons. First couple of times through I thought one was a swapped fill/stroke, and the other was a 'light' version, then third time through I decided they must all just be random, finally I twigged that it was a scrolling history moving from right to left (small -- big -- small). Quick thoughts: - What you have now would be visually understandable after a single click if you added a brief transition animation so that the icons scroll left/right and resize (like a carousel). - Not convinced you need the undo icon if you can add the transition animation, it feels slightly odd at the moment that the undo is right next to the yet too be seen new colour combination (perhaps it could go above or below the centre icon if it really needs to stay in the design). - The alternative is to have N small buddy icons around the central large icon, where the small icons are a close variation of the central large icon colours. Clicking the centre icon picks a completely new random base set of colours; clicking any small icon moves it to the centre large position, and generates a new set of small variants. The colour variants could just be +/- small random steps from the main base colours, or have some spacial meaning (left/right could be +/- fill colour, up/down could be +/- stroke colour). Regards, --Gary -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
[Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
I made a patch to the color selector on the About Me panel to make it a little easier to navigate the color selections. Please see my screen cast at http://dailymotion.virgilio.it/video/xb42um_color-selector_tech. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
Hi Walter, On 11 Nov 2009, at 15:48, Walter Bender wrote: I made a patch to the color selector on the About Me panel to make it a little easier to navigate the color selections. Please see my screen cast at http://dailymotion.virgilio.it/video/xb42um_color-selector_tech . I needed to watch through a number of times before I could work out the logic for the colours of the two smaller buddy icons. First couple of times through I thought one was a swapped fill/stroke, and the other was a 'light' version, then third time through I decided they must all just be random, finally I twigged that it was a scrolling history moving from right to left (small -- big -- small). Quick thoughts: - What you have now would be visually understandable after a single click if you added a brief transition animation so that the icons scroll left/right and resize (like a carousel). - Not convinced you need the undo icon if you can add the transition animation, it feels slightly odd at the moment that the undo is right next to the yet too be seen new colour combination (perhaps it could go above or below the centre icon if it really needs to stay in the design). - The alternative is to have N small buddy icons around the central large icon, where the small icons are a close variation of the central large icon colours. Clicking the centre icon picks a completely new random base set of colours; clicking any small icon moves it to the centre large position, and generates a new set of small variants. The colour variants could just be +/- small random steps from the main base colours, or have some spacial meaning (left/right could be +/- fill colour, up/down could be +/- stroke colour). Regards, --Gary ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
I just posted another version (no undo) and I think more clarity as to what is going on... You can click the buttons or the small XOs. -walter On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter, On 11 Nov 2009, at 15:48, Walter Bender wrote: I made a patch to the color selector on the About Me panel to make it a little easier to navigate the color selections. Please see my screen cast at http://dailymotion.virgilio.it/video/xb42um_color-selector_tech. I needed to watch through a number of times before I could work out the logic for the colours of the two smaller buddy icons. First couple of times through I thought one was a swapped fill/stroke, and the other was a 'light' version, then third time through I decided they must all just be random, finally I twigged that it was a scrolling history moving from right to left (small -- big -- small). Quick thoughts: - What you have now would be visually understandable after a single click if you added a brief transition animation so that the icons scroll left/right and resize (like a carousel). - Not convinced you need the undo icon if you can add the transition animation, it feels slightly odd at the moment that the undo is right next to the yet too be seen new colour combination (perhaps it could go above or below the centre icon if it really needs to stay in the design). - The alternative is to have N small buddy icons around the central large icon, where the small icons are a close variation of the central large icon colours. Clicking the centre icon picks a completely new random base set of colours; clicking any small icon moves it to the centre large position, and generates a new set of small variants. The colour variants could just be +/- small random steps from the main base colours, or have some spacial meaning (left/right could be +/- fill colour, up/down could be +/- stroke colour). Regards, --Gary -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
I like it, especially the version with arrows instead of undo. The best part for me is that it allows you to go backwards, if you decide you liked an earlier color better. -Wade On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Walter Bender walter.ben...@gmail.com wrote: I just posted another version (no undo) and I think more clarity as to what is going on... You can click the buttons or the small XOs. -walter On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter, On 11 Nov 2009, at 15:48, Walter Bender wrote: I made a patch to the color selector on the About Me panel to make it a little easier to navigate the color selections. Please see my screen cast at http://dailymotion.virgilio.it/video/xb42um_color-selector_tech. I needed to watch through a number of times before I could work out the logic for the colours of the two smaller buddy icons. First couple of times through I thought one was a swapped fill/stroke, and the other was a 'light' version, then third time through I decided they must all just be random, finally I twigged that it was a scrolling history moving from right to left (small -- big -- small). Quick thoughts: - What you have now would be visually understandable after a single click if you added a brief transition animation so that the icons scroll left/right and resize (like a carousel). - Not convinced you need the undo icon if you can add the transition animation, it feels slightly odd at the moment that the undo is right next to the yet too be seen new colour combination (perhaps it could go above or below the centre icon if it really needs to stay in the design). - The alternative is to have N small buddy icons around the central large icon, where the small icons are a close variation of the central large icon colours. Clicking the centre icon picks a completely new random base set of colours; clicking any small icon moves it to the centre large position, and generates a new set of small variants. The colour variants could just be +/- small random steps from the main base colours, or have some spacial meaning (left/right could be +/- fill colour, up/down could be +/- stroke colour). Regards, --Gary -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
Hi Walter, On 11 Nov 2009, at 17:42, Walter Bender wrote: I just posted another version (no undo) and I think more clarity as to what is going on... You can click the buttons or the small XOs. Yes, fab, that's much clearer, even for a static view. Here's a quick mockup at keeping the large buddy icon central so it matches the usual zoom presentation of your buddy icon: inline: layout_tweak.png Regards, --Gary -walter On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter, On 11 Nov 2009, at 15:48, Walter Bender wrote: I made a patch to the color selector on the About Me panel to make it a little easier to navigate the color selections. Please see my screen cast at http://dailymotion.virgilio.it/video/xb42um_color-selector_tech . I needed to watch through a number of times before I could work out the logic for the colours of the two smaller buddy icons. First couple of times through I thought one was a swapped fill/stroke, and the other was a 'light' version, then third time through I decided they must all just be random, finally I twigged that it was a scrolling history moving from right to left (small -- big -- small). Quick thoughts: - What you have now would be visually understandable after a single click if you added a brief transition animation so that the icons scroll left/right and resize (like a carousel). - Not convinced you need the undo icon if you can add the transition animation, it feels slightly odd at the moment that the undo is right next to the yet too be seen new colour combination (perhaps it could go above or below the centre icon if it really needs to stay in the design). - The alternative is to have N small buddy icons around the central large icon, where the small icons are a close variation of the central large icon colours. Clicking the centre icon picks a completely new random base set of colours; clicking any small icon moves it to the centre large position, and generates a new set of small variants. The colour variants could just be +/- small random steps from the main base colours, or have some spacial meaning (left/right could be +/- fill colour, up/down could be +/- stroke colour). Regards, --Gary -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] seeking feedback on sketch of a new color selector
Very nice! The ability to go backward is a huge improvement. I have a few thoughts on the layout. I'd suggest putting the arrows on the outside, with the smaller (presumably cell size) XOs just to the left and right of the large one. I'd also suggest making the arrow buttons smaller, so they don't overpower the interface (right now they actually appear larger than cell size; I think even showing them at the size they appear in the Journal, or in menus, might suffice). I'm glad to see that clicking the arrows or the small XOs works! Eben On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter, On 11 Nov 2009, at 17:42, Walter Bender wrote: I just posted another version (no undo) and I think more clarity as to what is going on... You can click the buttons or the small XOs. Yes, fab, that's much clearer, even for a static view. Here's a quick mockup at keeping the large buddy icon central so it matches the usual zoom presentation of your buddy icon: Regards, --Gary -walter On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com wrote: Hi Walter, On 11 Nov 2009, at 15:48, Walter Bender wrote: I made a patch to the color selector on the About Me panel to make it a little easier to navigate the color selections. Please see my screen cast at http://dailymotion.virgilio.it/video/xb42um_color-selector_tech. I needed to watch through a number of times before I could work out the logic for the colours of the two smaller buddy icons. First couple of times through I thought one was a swapped fill/stroke, and the other was a 'light' version, then third time through I decided they must all just be random, finally I twigged that it was a scrolling history moving from right to left (small -- big -- small). Quick thoughts: - What you have now would be visually understandable after a single click if you added a brief transition animation so that the icons scroll left/right and resize (like a carousel). - Not convinced you need the undo icon if you can add the transition animation, it feels slightly odd at the moment that the undo is right next to the yet too be seen new colour combination (perhaps it could go above or below the centre icon if it really needs to stay in the design). - The alternative is to have N small buddy icons around the central large icon, where the small icons are a close variation of the central large icon colours. Clicking the centre icon picks a completely new random base set of colours; clicking any small icon moves it to the centre large position, and generates a new set of small variants. The colour variants could just be +/- small random steps from the main base colours, or have some spacial meaning (left/right could be +/- fill colour, up/down could be +/- stroke colour). Regards, --Gary -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
