Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal Review Request (divyanshu kumar)

[Lionel Laské]

Hi Divyanshu,

Thanks for your proposal.
My remarks:
- Good understanding of what should be done
- You don't really describe how things will be done, you just describe the
way you will organize yourself
- You don't demonstrate you've got a good understanding of current
Sugarizer v2 implementation
- You should post on Discord a link to a video of Pawn tutorial activity
running.

Regards.

 Lionel


Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 18:49:08 +0530
> From: divyanshu kumar 
> To: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> Subject: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal Review Request
> Message-ID:
> <
> cacuggdzhurem3eodqfkijnvzqhx5hv1mgom68hwmfh_bwjr...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Greetings,
>
> I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to request your kind review
> of my Google Summer of Code (GSoC) proposal.  you can find it below:
>
> I would greatly appreciate any feedback or suggestions you may have. Thank
> you for your time and consideration.
>
> Best regards
> Divyanshu. kumar
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSOC proposal review

[James Cameron]

Organisation name is "Sugar Labs" not "Sugarlabs".

Changes to the user interface of Chat activity are unlikely to take
less than a week, due to pull request review.  You should plan to
start them sooner.

On Mon, Apr 01, 2024 at 12:34:55AM +0530, Sanjay Srikanth wrote:
> Hello and thanks for reviewing my proposal. I have made the necessary changes
> and I am looking for your feedback on the updated proposal.
> 
> I have attached the file below.
> 
> Thank you


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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal Review for Math Games Idea

[Soham Kukreti]

Okay I will keep that in mind, Thank you for the feedback.

On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 7:43 PM Chihurumnaya Ibiam 
wrote:

> Nothing wrong with using the font for one activity, but if you're creating
> a set of activities then various fonts would be nice.
>
> Also use the reply-all button next time so the email is kept in the thread.
>
> --
>
> Ibiam Chihurumnaya
> ib...@sugarlabs.org
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 8:07 PM Soham Kukreti 
> wrote:
>
>> I will look into making the proposal more in line with the template.
>> Regarding the font there is no particular reason why I chose it, I just
>> like the way it looks.
>> Do you have any other suggestions?
>>
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal Review for Math Games Idea

[Chihurumnaya Ibiam]

Nothing wrong with using the font for one activity, but if you're creating
a set of activities then various fonts would be nice.

Also use the reply-all button next time so the email is kept in the thread.

-- 

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On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 8:07 PM Soham Kukreti 
wrote:

> I will look into making the proposal more in line with the template.
> Regarding the font there is no particular reason why I chose it, I just
> like the way it looks.
> Do you have any other suggestions?
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal Review for Math Games Idea

[Chihurumnaya Ibiam]

Looks good, some of the details in the proposal can be omitted, see our
proposal template
 for ideas
on making it simpler.

You seem to have used one font for various activities, is there a
particular reason why?

-- 

Ibiam Chihurumnaya
ib...@sugarlabs.org



On Sat, Mar 23, 2024 at 6:08 PM Soham Kukreti 
wrote:

> Hi Ibiam,
>
> Please find attached my proposal draft for the math games idea. I would
> highly appreciate your feedback for the same. I am also attaching a google
> docs link, so that you can comment on the document itself.
>
> Proposal :
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VCLAi1ELkEytBMF6tQYniiNlexbzzjXZSVYo5VpAkPQ/edit?usp=sharing
>
> Thank You.
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal Review for Maintenance/bug fixes for Music Blocks 3

[Devin Ulibarri]

Hi,

Mohit Gupta:
> Hello everyone, I'm Mohit. I am sharing my draft proposal for
> the Gsoc Sugar MusicBLock project and looking for reviews and guidance from 
> the mentors.

I read it. Thanks for sending.

I think it looks fine. More importantly, you submitted PRs.

Best,
Devin
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal discussion

[Chihurumnaya Ibiam]

Hi Suraj,

We have a proposal template
 that you can
follow, you can also share your proposal to the mailing list and anyone who
has
comments will make them. Hope that helps!

-- 

Ibiam Chihurumnaya
ib...@sugarlabs.org



On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 1:57 PM Suraj kumar  wrote:

> Hi,
> I am suraj kumar . I have been going through the sugarlabs code base and
> trying to write a proposal application. I just wanted to know whether I
> should discuss about the implementation of GSoC project in this mailing
> list or does sugarlabs have other means by which i can pitch the proposal
> and get some comments on the proposal.
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal query

[Anindya Kundu]

You get a confirmation.

I got mine on 2nd April at 09:15AM IST.



*Anindya Kundu*

*BTech, 6th Semester*
*Dept. of Information Technology*

*Indian Institute of Engineering Science and Technology, Shibpur*



On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 01:27, shaansubbaiah.cs18 <
shaansubbaiah.c...@bmsce.ac.in> wrote:

> Edit: Earlier message went directly, not through the mailing list.
>
> Around 12pm IST. It might come a little later for you, I'm sure they do it
> in batches.
>
>
> On 05-Apr-2020 at 1:19 am, Abhishek Tanwar 
> wrote:
>
> What time did you receive it? mention is IST please
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 1:14 AM Shaan Subbaiah B C <
> shaansubbaiah.c...@bmsce.ac.in> wrote:
> Hey,
>
> My proof of admission got accepted and I recieved a mail for the same. You
> should be getting it soon.
>
>
> On 05-Apr-2020 at 1:01 am, Abhishek Tanwar 
> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> When I submitted the proposal for GSoC it was written if the *proof of
> enrollment *is not valid ,student will receive an email of rejection of
> proof of enrollment and another chance will be given to submit another
> proof of enrollment .
> I want to ask if the proof of enrollment is correct do we still receive an
> email from google ?
> A friend of mine receive an email for rejection of proof of enrollment but
> I have not received anything yet. Do I consider it as an acceptance of
>
> *proof of enrollment?Thank you*
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal query

[shaansubbaiah.cs18]

Edit: Earlier message went directly, not through the mailing list.

Around 12pm IST. It might come a little later for you, I'm sure they do it
in batches.


On 05-Apr-2020 at 1:19 am, Abhishek Tanwar 
wrote:

What time did you receive it? mention is IST please



On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 1:14 AM Shaan Subbaiah B C <
shaansubbaiah.c...@bmsce.ac.in> wrote:
Hey,

My proof of admission got accepted and I recieved a mail for the same. You
should be getting it soon.


On 05-Apr-2020 at 1:01 am, Abhishek Tanwar 
wrote:

Hello,

When I submitted the proposal for GSoC it was written if the *proof of
enrollment *is not valid ,student will receive an email of rejection of
proof of enrollment and another chance will be given to submit another
proof of enrollment .
I want to ask if the proof of enrollment is correct do we still receive an
email from google ?
A friend of mine receive an email for rejection of proof of enrollment but
I have not received anything yet. Do I consider it as an acceptance of

*proof of enrollment?Thank you*
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal

[Walter Bender]

Do you have any Python experience? This will definitely involve Python
programming.

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 2:50 PM RM Rishan  wrote:

> Hi there!
> This is my GSoC 2019 proposal for GSoC idea - Create a Sugar DashBoard
> Appreciate any Feedback
>
> Thank You!
> Regards.
> RM Rishan.
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal 2019

[James Cameron]

Please submit the proposal to Google?  I can't see it there.

On Tue, Apr 02, 2019 at 04:27:21PM +0530, Swarup N wrote:
> Hi,
> I have attached my proposal for GSoC 2019 for the 'Improve and maintain 20
> Sugar Activities' project. I request everyone to provide me valuable feedback
> so that I can continue to improve it.
> 
> Warm Regards,
> Swarup N.


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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal 2019

[James Cameron]

Looks good.  Also the work already done shows this proposal well.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal 2019

[Walter Bender]

Nice job identifying potential bug fixes and enhancements. Maybe add a
brief timeline?

regards.

-walter

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 7:39 AM Swarup N  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> My name is Swarup N and here is my proposal for the "Improve and maintain
> 25 activities" project, after certain modifications and changes. Please let
> me if anyone feels it can be improved in any way.
>
> Regards,
> Swarup
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc Proposal for "performance in musicblocks"

[Samson Goddy]

Great proposal. Glad to see you are still contributing to MB.

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019, 2:23 PM Sumit Srivastava 
wrote:

> The proposal is great.
> Also, thank you for all the help with bug discovery.
> ᐧ
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 6:43 PM Walter Bender 
> wrote:
>
>> It looks very comprehensive to me. (Thanks for adding the section on
>> Promises.)
>>
>> -walter
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 6:01 AM Favour Kelvin 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have not gotten any reviews yet on my proposal
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 1:55 AM James Cameron  wrote:
>>>
 Thanks!

 --
 James Cameron
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>>> ___
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>>
>>
>> --
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>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>> 
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc Proposal for "performance in musicblocks"

[Sumit Srivastava]

The proposal is great.
Also, thank you for all the help with bug discovery.
ᐧ

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 6:43 PM Walter Bender 
wrote:

> It looks very comprehensive to me. (Thanks for adding the section on
> Promises.)
>
> -walter
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 6:01 AM Favour Kelvin 
> wrote:
>
>> I have not gotten any reviews yet on my proposal
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 1:55 AM James Cameron  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> --
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>>> http://quozl.netrek.org/
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>
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc Proposal for "performance in musicblocks"

[Walter Bender]

It looks very comprehensive to me. (Thanks for adding the section on
Promises.)

-walter

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 6:01 AM Favour Kelvin 
wrote:

> I have not gotten any reviews yet on my proposal
>
> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 1:55 AM James Cameron  wrote:
>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> --
>> James Cameron
>> http://quozl.netrek.org/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc Proposal for "performance in musicblocks"

[Jaskirat Singh]

Hey,

It looks good to me.

On Sat, 6 Apr 2019, 3:31 pm Favour Kelvin  I have not gotten any reviews yet on my proposal
>
> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 1:55 AM James Cameron  wrote:
>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> --
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>> http://quozl.netrek.org/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc Proposal for "performance in musicblocks"

[Favour Kelvin]

I have not gotten any reviews yet on my proposal

On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 1:55 AM James Cameron  wrote:

> Thanks!
>
> --
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal Review

[James Cameron]

Thanks.  I've reviewed your changes.  I've no comments.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSOC proposal review for write activity

[James Cameron]

Reviewed.  Like the history of contributions.  No other comments.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal (Maintaining 25 activities).

[James Cameron]

Thanks.  Reviewed.  No comments.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSOC proposal review for write activity

[Sumit Srivastava]

That means your proposal was good enough to not require any changes. That's
a good thing, Ashish.

On Fri, 5 Apr 2019, 5:57 pm Ashish Aggarwal, 
wrote:

> Hello everyone ,
> I posted my proposal for review for write activity . However I didn't got
> any feedback . Looking forward to get some reviews .
> Thanks and regards
> Ashish Aggarwal
>
> On Apr 2, 2019 10:33 AM, "Ashish Aggarwal" 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Everyone ,
>> My name is Ashish aggarwal and I am a B.Tech CSE student . I have
>> attached my proposal for Write activity . Looking forward to getting
>> reviews from mentors and community members .
>> Thanks and Regards
>> ashish aggarwal 
>> github - ashish0910 
>>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSOC proposal review for write activity

[Ashish Aggarwal]

Hello everyone ,
I posted my proposal for review for write activity . However I didn't got
any feedback . Looking forward to get some reviews .
Thanks and regards
Ashish Aggarwal

On Apr 2, 2019 10:33 AM, "Ashish Aggarwal"  wrote:

> Hello Everyone ,
> My name is Ashish aggarwal and I am a B.Tech CSE student . I have attached
> my proposal for Write activity . Looking forward to getting reviews from
> mentors and community members .
> Thanks and Regards
> ashish aggarwal 
> github - ashish0910 
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal (Maintaining 25 activities).

[Sumit Srivastava]

Thanks. I've read the proposal and I've no comments.

You're submitting two proposals, one for porting and one for maintaining
activities, right?

On Fri, 5 Apr 2019, 2:19 pm aniket mathur, 
wrote:

> Hello everyone, I am Aniket Mathur. Attached is the pdf of my proposal for
> maintaining 25 sugar activities. Please review and suggest changes. Thanks!
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal for "New Sugar Activity"

[Tony Anderson]

It appears that you are making one activity out of two. It might be 
easier to construct two separate Sugar activities.


The second activity seems to depend on internet access. Perhaps 
two-thirds of our users have limited or no access to the internet.


Perhaps it is possible to construct the activity to access data 
alternatively from a usb drive (Storage on an XO laptop is very limited).


Keep in mind that our users do not speak English as a native language 
and are certainly not familiar with Latin. The Latin names are fair 
since they are equally unfamiiar to everyone. However, these names 
identify a set of objects with similar characteristics. Call it a canine 
or a dog, it is still referring to a four-legged mammal, etc. However, 
the characteristics of many phyla are not familiar to the average user.


Consider in making your activities how understandable any text used will 
be. Users who encounter problems, hit the stop button. The mantra is 
'low floor, high ceiling'.


Tony

On 4/2/19 3:31 AM, Manan Goel wrote:

Hi
This is my proposal for a New Sugar Activity. Please take a look at it 
and tell me how I could improve it.

Regards
Manan Goel

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSOC Proposal

[Jaskirat Singh]

Looks good.

On Fri, 5 Apr 2019, 2:31 am Sparsh Agarwal, 
wrote:

> Hello all,
> Thank you for your time and suggestions. I have attached my revised
> proposal. Please review it and suggest any changes.
>
> Regards
> Sparsh Agarwal
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal ML activity

[Walter Bender]

Just for fun. check out https://www.kara.tech/

-walter

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 4:39 PM Ahmed ElSabbagh 
wrote:

> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dSnO-2E2SmaV__RPu7ZqQ7TqzH92rfMI
>
> I added that part on this document with more details, please do read.
> I am sorry for the mess I keep forgetting to Reply All.
> Anyway I would like to submit the proposal, does it seem good or is there
> any changes needed or parts added?
>
>
>
> On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at 23:31, Walter Bender 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 2:31 PM Ahmed ElSabbagh <
>> ahmed.h.elsabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Walter,
>>> I Added an illustration of how I imagine it would look like.
>>> I don't exactly understand your question regarding how Algorithm work.
>>>
>>
>> I am asking, how are you going to apply tensor flow to solve the problem
>> you are describing?
>>
>>
>>> As for CPU intensity, I have to ask how low-end are we talking about? I
>>> am have not used tensorflow before, but this google experiment  (from which
>>> I draw inspiration for this project)
>>> https://experiments.withgoogle.com/teachable-machine, needs only less
>>> than 100 images to differentiate between 3 classes, and it runs fast on
>>> browser, it should in theory be able train the model on relatively slow
>>> computer (although with a bit difficulty).
>>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UJUclV_0otspq0KIYK_ms4wUkdA4VHBc
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 15:29, Walter Bender 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Interesting idea. Could be a fun activity.
 A couple of comments:
 (1) it is a bit thin on details of how you'd implement the app itself.
 What would the interface look like? what sorts of controls would there be?
 (2) Also, in brief, how does your algorithm work? How CPU intensive is
 it? Realistic to run on low-end laptops?

 There was some work done at RIT about 5 years ago on a sign-language
 chat for Sugar -- never completed.  Might be worth investigating. If I can,
 I will find you a link.

 regards.

 -walter

 On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 9:12 AM Ahmed ElSabbagh <
 ahmed.h.elsabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello I am sending a proposal for Sugar Activity.
> Can you please provide an honest opinion, do you think we can work on
> that or is my resume too underwhelming?
> Thank you in advance
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bCLeTv6fpfD71ExFwMtbB8WRExMspieg/view?usp=sharing
>
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 --
 Walter Bender
 Sugar Labs
 http://www.sugarlabs.org
 

>>>
>>
>> --
>> Walter Bender
>> Sugar Labs
>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>> 
>>
>

-- 
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal ML activity

[Ahmed ElSabbagh]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dSnO-2E2SmaV__RPu7ZqQ7TqzH92rfMI

I added that part on this document with more details, please do read.
I am sorry for the mess I keep forgetting to Reply All.
Anyway I would like to submit the proposal, does it seem good or is there
any changes needed or parts added?



On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at 23:31, Walter Bender  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 2:31 PM Ahmed ElSabbagh <
> ahmed.h.elsabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Walter,
>> I Added an illustration of how I imagine it would look like.
>> I don't exactly understand your question regarding how Algorithm work.
>>
>
> I am asking, how are you going to apply tensor flow to solve the problem
> you are describing?
>
>
>> As for CPU intensity, I have to ask how low-end are we talking about? I
>> am have not used tensorflow before, but this google experiment  (from which
>> I draw inspiration for this project)
>> https://experiments.withgoogle.com/teachable-machine, needs only less
>> than 100 images to differentiate between 3 classes, and it runs fast on
>> browser, it should in theory be able train the model on relatively slow
>> computer (although with a bit difficulty).
>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UJUclV_0otspq0KIYK_ms4wUkdA4VHBc
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 15:29, Walter Bender 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting idea. Could be a fun activity.
>>> A couple of comments:
>>> (1) it is a bit thin on details of how you'd implement the app itself.
>>> What would the interface look like? what sorts of controls would there be?
>>> (2) Also, in brief, how does your algorithm work? How CPU intensive is
>>> it? Realistic to run on low-end laptops?
>>>
>>> There was some work done at RIT about 5 years ago on a sign-language
>>> chat for Sugar -- never completed.  Might be worth investigating. If I can,
>>> I will find you a link.
>>>
>>> regards.
>>>
>>> -walter
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 9:12 AM Ahmed ElSabbagh <
>>> ahmed.h.elsabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Hello I am sending a proposal for Sugar Activity.
 Can you please provide an honest opinion, do you think we can work on
 that or is my resume too underwhelming?
 Thank you in advance


 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bCLeTv6fpfD71ExFwMtbB8WRExMspieg/view?usp=sharing

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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Walter Bender
>>> Sugar Labs
>>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>>> 
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Walter Bender
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> 
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal for "New Sugar Activity"

[James Cameron]

Thanks.

On Wed, Apr 03, 2019 at 09:10:32AM +0530, Manan Goel wrote:
> I just checked when these topics are covered in the United States. They are a
> part of the high school biology curriculum.
> 
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 9:02 AM Manan Goel <[1]manangoel1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Being from India, I encountered basics of molecular biology including both
> the problems I'm tackling in the 9th and 10th grade. I think in the
> United States students who take AP Biology might encounter this.
> 
> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 3:24 AM James Cameron <[2]qu...@laptop.org> wrote:
> 
> Thanks, interesting.  What child age range is the activity designed
> for?  I've not yet encountered this science taught at an elementary
> age range, but I'm not familiar with all countries.
> 
> --
> James Cameron
> [3]http://quozl.netrek.org/

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal for "New Sugar Activity"

[Manan Goel]

I just checked when these topics are covered in the United States. They are
a part of the high school biology curriculum.


On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 9:02 AM Manan Goel  wrote:

> Being from India, I encountered basics of molecular biology including both
> the problems I'm tackling in the 9th and 10th grade. I think in the
> United States students who take AP Biology might encounter this.
>
> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 3:24 AM James Cameron  wrote:
>
>> Thanks, interesting.  What child age range is the activity designed
>> for?  I've not yet encountered this science taught at an elementary
>> age range, but I'm not familiar with all countries.
>>
>> --
>> James Cameron
>> http://quozl.netrek.org/
>> ___
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>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal( port to python 3).

[Vipul Gupta]

Hello Aniket,

The proposal is well structured and defined properly. In the timeline
section, do include what you plan to accomplish in the community bonding
period.

Thanks,

Cordially,
Vipul Gupta
Mixster  | Github



On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 1:49 AM aniket mathur 
wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> I am Aniket Mathur, attached is a draft of my proposal after making the
> suggested changes. Please review and suggest if any other changes are
> needed.
> @quozl and @pro-panda thanks for the valuable suggestions.
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal( port to python 3).

[James Cameron]

Thanks.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal 2019

[James Cameron]

Thanks!

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSOC proposal review for write activity

[James Cameron]

Thanks.

On Tue, Apr 02, 2019 at 10:33:00AM +0530, Ashish Aggarwal wrote:
> Hello Everyone ,
> My name is Ashish aggarwal and I am a B.Tech CSE student . I have attached my
> proposal for Write activity . Looking forward to getting reviews from mentors
> and community members . 
> Thanks and Regards
> [1]ashish aggarwal
> github - [2]ashish0910
> 
> References:
> 
> [1] http://ashishaggarwal.tech/
> [2] https://github.com/ashish0910



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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal changes

[James Cameron]

Okay, thanks.

I'm not requiring any changes.  You're welcome to change it if you
like.

On Mon, Apr 01, 2019 at 02:07:42PM +0530, ANIKET MATHUR wrote:
> Thanks for answering and guiding.
> I am aware of the obstacles that I might face, also I am aware of
> the flexibility of the timeline that might change as the work
> proceeds.  My timeline is just an approximate idea of how long it
> might take to perform tasks in chronological order. To determine
> that I went through the previous work done on each task and the work
> remaining to be done, to make out approximate figures. I accept that
> the real difficulties are faced only once you start working, which
> might entirely alter my timeline. 
> 
> Also, I consider it as a possibility and accept it that I might have
> to work on things not mentioned in my proposal during the program,
> like porting other activities to TelepathyGlib, or other
> contributions to the source code essential at that time. I know this
> is how things work, rather than sticking to a timeline. 
> 
> Still, I am not clear about the changes that I have to make, because
> there is no such thing as a strict timeline. So do I have to keep my
> timeline the same and let my mentors guide me through the work that
> I have to do during the program itself? 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 12:50 PM James Cameron <[1]qu...@laptop.org> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 03:52:08PM +0530, aniket mathur wrote:
> > James wrote:
> > >  "your timeline has a queue of components in a set order; it is
> > > more likely you'll need to work on all components at once; that's
> > > how it seems to work for me."
> >
> > Suggestion given by @quozl for my timeline. Should I make my
> > timeline as a certain percent of work done on all components
> > together before phase evaluations? Need suggestions. Link to my
> > proposal.
> > [2]https://docs.google.com/document/d/
> 1uGwlzPMUG7Z_ZJEloORGc8tEiXs72qLurO-R7GlomsU
> 
> Thanks for asking.
> 
> No, I don't think a certain percentage could work; how would we
> measure?
> 
> Consider the varying purposes of a timeline;
> 
> 1.  so that we can see the weeks you'll be working,
> 
> 2.  so that you'll have something that can be assessed during
> evaluations, something that is working and 90% done by midterm,
> 
> 3.  so that we can see you've thought about the size of the
> work,
> 
> 4.  so that we can see if you have iterated into estimates of
> subtasks,
> 
> Also, the timeline is not going to be kept as-is; you and your
> mentors will adjust the timeline during the project.  When a
> timeline is not adjusted, that usually means mentors and student
> are not paying attention to the timeline.  In my experience an
> unadjusted timeline is a reliable sign of impending failure.
> 
> Implementation mistakes of working with timelines that I've seen
> are;
> 
> - stopping work when you've no idea how to proceed, and you have
> to ask questions of mentors, or other project teams; you must
> have something else to work on while you wait for an answer,
> 
> - not working on next week's tasks when something takes a
> shorter time than expected; the spare time should be used,
> 
> - moving on to a different task when a task is not finished; can
> be fatal to a project when there are task dependencies.
> 
> See also Google Summer of Code - Student Guide - Writing a
> proposal,
> [3]https://google.github.io/gsocguides/student/writing-a-proposal
> which does not talk about timelines.  There's an early paragraph
> about time management.
> 
> Now, your timeline seems to follow the "Project Task Checklist"
> in the idea.  We put that checklist there because those tasks
> have a somewhat forward dependency.  But there are some traps in
> using that checklist as a timeline.  Many of those tasks may
> stall for one reason or another outside your control.  Some of
> them are ill-defined; for example the port to TelepathyGLib is
> needed eventually for all activities, but only the Fructose set
> are to be ported by your project, so that suggests only the
> Fructose set and the Toolkit should be ported to TelepathyGLib.
> 
> So a good timeline will depend on planning of the tasks, and
> that may in turn depend on good estimates.  An invaluable input
> to estimating software effort is to try to use the software or
> cobble together a minimum viable prototype.  I know what sort of
> traps you would hit if you tried that.
> 
> --
> James Cameron
> [4]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> ___
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> [5]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [6]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> 
> References:
> 
> [1] mailto:qu...@laptop.org
> [2] 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uGwlzPMUG7Z_Z

Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc Proposal for "performance in musicblocks"

[James Cameron]

Thanks!

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal : Sugar Dashboard

[James Cameron]

Thanks.  I've no feedback.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc Proposal for "performance in musicblocks"

[James Cameron]

Unfortunately, your document is protected.  "You need permission".

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal for "New Sugar Activity"

[James Cameron]

Thanks, interesting.  What child age range is the activity designed
for?  I've not yet encountered this science taught at an elementary
age range, but I'm not familiar with all countries.

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal for "New Sugar Activity"

[Chihurumnaya Ibiam]

Hi Manan,

I like the idea but from your proposal you assumed that the student already
knows a bit about molecular biology and the activity aims to help them get
a better understanding of it.

As your proposal states that "the user inputs the PDB code", this is an
assumption that the student already has an idea about molecular biology.

What about a scenario where the student knows nothing about molecular
biology but wants to learn?

On Mon, Apr 1, 2019, 8:58 PM Manan Goel  wrote:

> Hi
> This is my proposal for a New Sugar Activity. Please take a look at it and
> tell me how I could improve it.
> Regards
> Manan Goel
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal : Sugar Dashboard

[Jaskirat Singh]

Great. It looks good

On Mon, 1 Apr 2019, 9:11 pm Hrishi Patel,  wrote:

> Hello,
> I have attached my proposal for GSoC 2019 for the Sugar Dashboard project.
> Please provide valuable feedback, I would keep improving my proposal.
> Thank you!
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal changes

[ANIKET MATHUR]

Thanks for answering and guiding.
I am aware of the obstacles that I might face, also I am aware of the
flexibility of the timeline that might change as the work proceeds.
My timeline is just an approximate idea of how long it might take to
perform tasks in chronological order. To determine that I went through the
previous work done on each task and the work remaining to be done, to make
out approximate figures. I accept that the real difficulties are faced only
once you start working, which might entirely alter my timeline.

Also, I consider it as a possibility and accept it that I might have to
work on things not mentioned in my proposal during the program, like
porting other activities to TelepathyGlib, or other contributions to the
source code essential at that time. I know this is how things work, rather
than sticking to a timeline.

Still, I am not clear about the changes that I have to make, because there
is no such thing as a strict timeline. So do I have to keep my timeline
the same and let my mentors guide me through the work that I have to do
during the program itself?

On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 12:50 PM James Cameron  wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 03:52:08PM +0530, aniket mathur wrote:
> > James wrote:
> > >  "your timeline has a queue of components in a set order; it is
> > > more likely you'll need to work on all components at once; that's
> > > how it seems to work for me."
> >
> > Suggestion given by @quozl for my timeline. Should I make my
> > timeline as a certain percent of work done on all components
> > together before phase evaluations? Need suggestions. Link to my
> > proposal.
> >
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uGwlzPMUG7Z_ZJEloORGc8tEiXs72qLurO-R7GlomsU
>
> Thanks for asking.
>
> No, I don't think a certain percentage could work; how would we
> measure?
>
> Consider the varying purposes of a timeline;
>
> 1.  so that we can see the weeks you'll be working,
>
> 2.  so that you'll have something that can be assessed during
> evaluations, something that is working and 90% done by midterm,
>
> 3.  so that we can see you've thought about the size of the work,
>
> 4.  so that we can see if you have iterated into estimates of
> subtasks,
>
> Also, the timeline is not going to be kept as-is; you and your mentors
> will adjust the timeline during the project.  When a timeline is not
> adjusted, that usually means mentors and student are not paying
> attention to the timeline.  In my experience an unadjusted timeline is
> a reliable sign of impending failure.
>
> Implementation mistakes of working with timelines that I've seen are;
>
> - stopping work when you've no idea how to proceed, and you have to
>   ask questions of mentors, or other project teams; you must have
>   something else to work on while you wait for an answer,
>
> - not working on next week's tasks when something takes a shorter time
>   than expected; the spare time should be used,
>
> - moving on to a different task when a task is not finished; can be
>   fatal to a project when there are task dependencies.
>
> See also Google Summer of Code - Student Guide - Writing a proposal,
> https://google.github.io/gsocguides/student/writing-a-proposal which
> does not talk about timelines.  There's an early paragraph about time
> management.
>
> Now, your timeline seems to follow the "Project Task Checklist" in the
> idea.  We put that checklist there because those tasks have a somewhat
> forward dependency.  But there are some traps in using that checklist
> as a timeline.  Many of those tasks may stall for one reason or
> another outside your control.  Some of them are ill-defined; for
> example the port to TelepathyGLib is needed eventually for all
> activities, but only the Fructose set are to be ported by your
> project, so that suggests only the Fructose set and the Toolkit should
> be ported to TelepathyGLib.
>
> So a good timeline will depend on planning of the tasks, and that may
> in turn depend on good estimates.  An invaluable input to estimating
> software effort is to try to use the software or cobble together a
> minimum viable prototype.  I know what sort of traps you would hit if
> you tried that.
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
> ___
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal changes

[James Cameron]

On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 03:52:08PM +0530, aniket mathur wrote:
> James wrote:
> >  "your timeline has a queue of components in a set order; it is
> > more likely you'll need to work on all components at once; that's
> > how it seems to work for me."
> 
> Suggestion given by @quozl for my timeline. Should I make my
> timeline as a certain percent of work done on all components
> together before phase evaluations? Need suggestions. Link to my
> proposal.
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uGwlzPMUG7Z_ZJEloORGc8tEiXs72qLurO-R7GlomsU

Thanks for asking.

No, I don't think a certain percentage could work; how would we
measure?

Consider the varying purposes of a timeline;

1.  so that we can see the weeks you'll be working,

2.  so that you'll have something that can be assessed during
evaluations, something that is working and 90% done by midterm,

3.  so that we can see you've thought about the size of the work,

4.  so that we can see if you have iterated into estimates of
subtasks,

Also, the timeline is not going to be kept as-is; you and your mentors
will adjust the timeline during the project.  When a timeline is not
adjusted, that usually means mentors and student are not paying
attention to the timeline.  In my experience an unadjusted timeline is
a reliable sign of impending failure.

Implementation mistakes of working with timelines that I've seen are;

- stopping work when you've no idea how to proceed, and you have to
  ask questions of mentors, or other project teams; you must have
  something else to work on while you wait for an answer,

- not working on next week's tasks when something takes a shorter time
  than expected; the spare time should be used,

- moving on to a different task when a task is not finished; can be
  fatal to a project when there are task dependencies.

See also Google Summer of Code - Student Guide - Writing a proposal,
https://google.github.io/gsocguides/student/writing-a-proposal which
does not talk about timelines.  There's an early paragraph about time
management.

Now, your timeline seems to follow the "Project Task Checklist" in the
idea.  We put that checklist there because those tasks have a somewhat
forward dependency.  But there are some traps in using that checklist
as a timeline.  Many of those tasks may stall for one reason or
another outside your control.  Some of them are ill-defined; for
example the port to TelepathyGLib is needed eventually for all
activities, but only the Fructose set are to be ported by your
project, so that suggests only the Fructose set and the Toolkit should
be ported to TelepathyGLib.

So a good timeline will depend on planning of the tasks, and that may
in turn depend on good estimates.  An invaluable input to estimating
software effort is to try to use the software or cobble together a
minimum viable prototype.  I know what sort of traps you would hit if
you tried that.

-- 
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http://quozl.netrek.org/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal Review Request

[James Cameron]

Thanks.  Attached as PDF.

-- 
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proposal-utkarsh-singh.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal ML activity

[Walter Bender]

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 2:31 PM Ahmed ElSabbagh 
wrote:

> Hi Walter,
> I Added an illustration of how I imagine it would look like.
> I don't exactly understand your question regarding how Algorithm work.
>

I am asking, how are you going to apply tensor flow to solve the problem
you are describing?


> As for CPU intensity, I have to ask how low-end are we talking about? I am
> have not used tensorflow before, but this google experiment  (from which I
> draw inspiration for this project)
> https://experiments.withgoogle.com/teachable-machine, needs only less
> than 100 images to differentiate between 3 classes, and it runs fast on
> browser, it should in theory be able train the model on relatively slow
> computer (although with a bit difficulty).
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UJUclV_0otspq0KIYK_ms4wUkdA4VHBc
>
>
> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 15:29, Walter Bender 
> wrote:
>
>> Interesting idea. Could be a fun activity.
>> A couple of comments:
>> (1) it is a bit thin on details of how you'd implement the app itself.
>> What would the interface look like? what sorts of controls would there be?
>> (2) Also, in brief, how does your algorithm work? How CPU intensive is
>> it? Realistic to run on low-end laptops?
>>
>> There was some work done at RIT about 5 years ago on a sign-language chat
>> for Sugar -- never completed.  Might be worth investigating. If I can, I
>> will find you a link.
>>
>> regards.
>>
>> -walter
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 9:12 AM Ahmed ElSabbagh <
>> ahmed.h.elsabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello I am sending a proposal for Sugar Activity.
>>> Can you please provide an honest opinion, do you think we can work on
>>> that or is my resume too underwhelming?
>>> Thank you in advance
>>>
>>>
>>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bCLeTv6fpfD71ExFwMtbB8WRExMspieg/view?usp=sharing
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Walter Bender
>> Sugar Labs
>> http://www.sugarlabs.org
>> 
>>
>

-- 
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC: Proposal for "Create new activities"

[Muhammad Usman]

I think 'pip install jupyter' should do the trick. I think doing that we
might be able to bundle jupyter and then run it. Not sure if this is
recommended in sugar.

Thanks,
Muhammad Usman

On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 2:23 PM 
wrote:

> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 15:01:18 +0800
> From: Tony Anderson 
> To: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC: Proposal for "Create new activities"
> Message-ID: <22693bf3-d39b-6eac-941e-0a7180b66...@usa.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Good start.
>
> A reasonable way to start would be to install the server in gnome so
> that it works on the XO. This is going to be a bit tricky because Sugar
> on the XO is based on Fedora 18. One of the current modules required by
> pip is not supported by Fedora 18.
>
> In considering how I might proceed, I decided it would be easiest to
> install Jupyter on Ubuntu 18.04 and use the sucre install of Sugar to
> build and test the 'Jupyter-activity' wrapper, pushing off the XO
> dependency issues.
>
>
>
> Tony
>
>
> On 3/30/19 1:49 PM, Muhammad Usman wrote:
> > I have personally used jupyter for a long time, so I have a fair
> > amount of experience using it.
> >
> > As I can see, jupyter-notebook kind of requires the whole GSoC period,
> > therefore I would consider it as a separate project from the other and
> > write a different proposal for it.
> >
> > As for the design of the project, My understanding of going about
> > doing the project is:
> > - Install jupyter using pip. Install additional libraries such as
> > Latex to allow for the rendering of notebook as pdf and so on.
> > - Start with the jupyter server and modify the server to use journal,
> > removable devices along with using the file system.
> > - Make changes to frontend to display the notebook options appropriately.
> > - Display each language as a separate notebook option.
> > - Write a wrapper around the server controlling the starting of server
> > and the shutdown on exiting.
> > - Have examples and getting started tutorials.
> > - Lastly, have a detailed user documentation.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Muhammad Usman
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 5:09 AM
> >  > <mailto:sugar-devel-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 16:38:47 +0800
> > From: Tony Anderson  > <mailto:tony_ander...@usa.net>>
> > To: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > <mailto:sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC: Proposal for "Create new activities"
> > Message-ID:  > <mailto:a3f8d544-a6f6-35be-5fe1-6cc8e138d...@usa.net>>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> >
> > The Jupyter Notebook project is of particular interest to me.
> >
> > Over the past several GSOC periods, developers have had a problem
> > completing their projects within the allotted time. You are
> > proposing to
> > take on several projects, any one of which is a big load for one
> > summer.
> >
> > If you undertake the Jupyter Notebook project, I would hope that
> > is your
> > only task for the summer. Completing it in a usable form in the GSOC
> > period would be a major, noteworthy accomplishment.
> >
> > The Jupyter Notebook started life as ipython. The Jupyter
> > implementation
> > supports multiple programming languages (e.g. bash, python, web
> > (javascript, html5, css), and many others. It can also be used to
> > make
> > interactive lessons on science and mathematics topics independent of
> > programming).
> >
> > The essence of the ipython server is that it accepts a url for a file
> > (*.ipynb). It then processes this file displaying cells and running
> > cells interactively based on the requirements of the notebook
> > author and
> > input from the user.
> >
> > As an activity, (called for example, Jupyter-activity), it should
> > resume
> > .ipynb files in the Journal. The browser for this activity can be the
> > Browse activity (testing to be sure that the WebKit browser in the
> > Browse activity supports Jupyter). This is unlikely to be a
> > show-stopper. If executed with start-new, it should enable the
> > user to
> > designate a notebook to run (among those in the Journal, Documents
> > fo

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC: Proposal for "Create new activities"

[Tony Anderson]

Good start.

A reasonable way to start would be to install the server in gnome so 
that it works on the XO. This is going to be a bit tricky because Sugar 
on the XO is based on Fedora 18. One of the current modules required by 
pip is not supported by Fedora 18.


In considering how I might proceed, I decided it would be easiest to 
install Jupyter on Ubuntu 18.04 and use the sucre install of Sugar to 
build and test the 'Jupyter-activity' wrapper, pushing off the XO 
dependency issues.




Tony


On 3/30/19 1:49 PM, Muhammad Usman wrote:
I have personally used jupyter for a long time, so I have a fair 
amount of experience using it.


As I can see, jupyter-notebook kind of requires the whole GSoC period, 
therefore I would consider it as a separate project from the other and 
write a different proposal for it.


As for the design of the project, My understanding of going about 
doing the project is:
- Install jupyter using pip. Install additional libraries such as 
Latex to allow for the rendering of notebook as pdf and so on.
- Start with the jupyter server and modify the server to use journal, 
removable devices along with using the file system.

- Make changes to frontend to display the notebook options appropriately.
- Display each language as a separate notebook option.
- Write a wrapper around the server controlling the starting of server 
and the shutdown on exiting.

- Have examples and getting started tutorials.
- Lastly, have a detailed user documentation.

Thanks,
Muhammad Usman

On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 5:09 AM 
<mailto:sugar-devel-requ...@lists.sugarlabs.org>> wrote:


Message: 3
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 16:38:47 +0800
From: Tony Anderson mailto:tony_ander...@usa.net>>
To: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
<mailto:sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org>
Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC: Proposal for "Create new activities"
Message-ID: mailto:a3f8d544-a6f6-35be-5fe1-6cc8e138d...@usa.net>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

The Jupyter Notebook project is of particular interest to me.

Over the past several GSOC periods, developers have had a problem
completing their projects within the allotted time. You are
proposing to
take on several projects, any one of which is a big load for one
summer.

If you undertake the Jupyter Notebook project, I would hope that
is your
only task for the summer. Completing it in a usable form in the GSOC
period would be a major, noteworthy accomplishment.

The Jupyter Notebook started life as ipython. The Jupyter
implementation
supports multiple programming languages (e.g. bash, python, web
(javascript, html5, css), and many others. It can also be used to
make
interactive lessons on science and mathematics topics independent of
programming).

The essence of the ipython server is that it accepts a url for a file
(*.ipynb). It then processes this file displaying cells and running
cells interactively based on the requirements of the notebook
author and
input from the user.

As an activity, (called for example, Jupyter-activity), it should
resume
.ipynb files in the Journal. The browser for this activity can be the
Browse activity (testing to be sure that the WebKit browser in the
Browse activity supports Jupyter). This is unlikely to be a
show-stopper. If executed with start-new, it should enable the
user to
designate a notebook to run (among those in the Journal, Documents
folder, or a mounted removable device). It should also enable a
user to
create a notebook.

The technology involved in this project is Jupyter. The team at
Jupyter
is friendly and helpful, in my experience. I doubt there will be an
significant need to modify the Browse activity. One limitation that
could be addressed en passant is that when Browse is resumed, it
launches a new instance rather than opening a tab in a running copy.
This is OK but seems primitive compared to other browsers.

There is a large library online of Jupyter notebooks with many
tutorials. The first step in this project is to become familiar with
these notebooks. Jupyter can be installed on Linux distributions via
Anaconda - but this is overkill for the XO. It can also be
installed by
yum (apt for Ubuntu) but better by pip.

The storage available to the XO is extremely limited (XO has 1GB,
other
models have 4GB). This means that the Anaconda implementation which
incorporates many additional valuable packages is probably too
large for
Sugar on an XO (still over 80% of the systems in the wild). Even
so, the
Pip install may need some optional capabilities such as Latex and
MatLab.

One of the critical parts of an implementation frequently gets
left to
the end and then is not done - user documentation. Thank

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC: Proposal for "Create new activities"

[Muhammad Usman]

I have personally used jupyter for a long time, so I have a fair amount of
experience using it.

As I can see, jupyter-notebook kind of requires the whole GSoC period,
therefore I would consider it as a separate project from the other and
write a different proposal for it.

As for the design of the project, My understanding of going about doing the
project is:
- Install jupyter using pip. Install additional libraries such as Latex to
allow for the rendering of notebook as pdf and so on.
- Start with the jupyter server and modify the server to use journal,
removable devices along with using the file system.
- Make changes to frontend to display the notebook options appropriately.
- Display each language as a separate notebook option.
- Write a wrapper around the server controlling the starting of server and
the shutdown on exiting.
- Have examples and getting started tutorials.
- Lastly, have a detailed user documentation.

Thanks,
Muhammad Usman

On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 5:09 AM 
wrote:

> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 16:38:47 +0800
> From: Tony Anderson 
> To: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC: Proposal for "Create new activities"
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> The Jupyter Notebook project is of particular interest to me.
>
> Over the past several GSOC periods, developers have had a problem
> completing their projects within the allotted time. You are proposing to
> take on several projects, any one of which is a big load for one summer.
>
> If you undertake the Jupyter Notebook project, I would hope that is your
> only task for the summer. Completing it in a usable form in the GSOC
> period would be a major, noteworthy accomplishment.
>
> The Jupyter Notebook started life as ipython. The Jupyter implementation
> supports multiple programming languages (e.g. bash, python, web
> (javascript, html5, css), and many others. It can also be used to make
> interactive lessons on science and mathematics topics independent of
> programming).
>
> The essence of the ipython server is that it accepts a url for a file
> (*.ipynb). It then processes this file displaying cells and running
> cells interactively based on the requirements of the notebook author and
> input from the user.
>
> As an activity, (called for example, Jupyter-activity), it should resume
> .ipynb files in the Journal. The browser for this activity can be the
> Browse activity (testing to be sure that the WebKit browser in the
> Browse activity supports Jupyter). This is unlikely to be a
> show-stopper. If executed with start-new, it should enable the user to
> designate a notebook to run (among those in the Journal, Documents
> folder, or a mounted removable device). It should also enable a user to
> create a notebook.
>
> The technology involved in this project is Jupyter. The team at Jupyter
> is friendly and helpful, in my experience. I doubt there will be an
> significant need to modify the Browse activity. One limitation that
> could be addressed en passant is that when Browse is resumed, it
> launches a new instance rather than opening a tab in a running copy.
> This is OK but seems primitive compared to other browsers.
>
> There is a large library online of Jupyter notebooks with many
> tutorials. The first step in this project is to become familiar with
> these notebooks. Jupyter can be installed on Linux distributions via
> Anaconda - but this is overkill for the XO. It can also be installed by
> yum (apt for Ubuntu) but better by pip.
>
> The storage available to the XO is extremely limited (XO has 1GB, other
> models have 4GB). This means that the Anaconda implementation which
> incorporates many additional valuable packages is probably too large for
> Sugar on an XO (still over 80% of the systems in the wild). Even so, the
> Pip install may need some optional capabilities such as Latex and MatLab.
>
> One of the critical parts of an implementation frequently gets left to
> the end and then is not done - user documentation. Thanks to Gonzalo
> Odiard, Sugar has an excellent documentation capability based on Sphinx
> - see help.sugarlabs.org. The 'Jupyter-activity' will need documentation
> that meets the needs of primary school students with limited computer
> experience and limited skills in Englsih. This could include a
> recommended library of Jupyter notebooks which can be used on the XO
> (esp. bash, python, and web langauges).
>
> Tony
>
> Tony
>
> On 3/29/19 3:52 PM, James Cameron wrote:
> > Thanks, interesting.
> >
> > Technical comments; Jupyter Notebook Activity, you suggest stripping
> > down Browse activity.  You might instead presume Browse is present
> > and call it directly.  T

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal ML activity

[James Cameron]

Thanks.  Attached as PDF for our archives.

Your English writing is excellent, well done.

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 03:12:13PM +0200, Ahmed ElSabbagh wrote:
> Hello I am sending a proposal for Sugar Activity.
> Can you please provide an honest opinion, do you think we can work on that or
> is my resume too underwhelming?
> Thank you in advance
> 
> [1]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bCLeTv6fpfD71ExFwMtbB8WRExMspieg/view?usp=
> sharing
> 
> References:
> 
> [1] 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bCLeTv6fpfD71ExFwMtbB8WRExMspieg/view?usp=sharing

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-- 
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http://quozl.netrek.org/


proposal-ahmed-elsabbagh.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal : creating new activity for Sugarizer

[Tony Anderson]

There is already a python sugar activity 'WordSearch' which for some 
reason does not appear in the Sugar Activities Library. Version 3 has 
the ability for the teaher (user) to prepare a list of words. The 
activity then creates the 'puzzle box' and allows the user to find the 
hidden words. The list of words is a simple text file with one word per 
line. It is put into the Journal and resumed (the activity process 
text/plain mime-type files).


If you would like a copy I can send one as an attacthment. Naturally 
what you propose would need to be writtten as a web activity.


Tony


On 3/29/19 3:35 AM, Sanjana Mundhra wrote:


Hey all!

I am Sanjana Mundhra, a third year B.Tech student from The LNM 
Institute of Information Technology, Jaipur.


Sugarizer has been providing some amusing learning activities for 
children and I hope to add mine to the list. What I came up with is a 
word search game with a few tweaks and variations.


 The game consists of letters of words placed in a grid. The objective 
of this puzzle is to find and mark all the horizontally, vertically, 
or diagonally placed words hidden inside the box. Click and drag over 
a word to check it off the list. They are fun to play, but also 
educational- in fact, many teachers make use of them.



  This will encourage the children to:

  * *Explore new topics.* Many word search puzzles have a theme to
which all the hidden words are related. Some of these are just for
fun, but a *topic* can also introduce essential vocabulary that
every child should possess.
  * *Improve spelling.* Young minds can learn new words and their
*spellings* by intensively searching for them, letter by letter,
in the puzzle. In fact they are rehearsing the spelling over and
over in their minds as they look for the letters the word contains.
  * *Improve concentration.* A valuable skill, concentration is
required to successfully complete this puzzle. It encourages the
brain to stay focused.
  * *Enhance visual acuity.* Eyes that are trained regularly to look
for small details will be stronger and more effective in many
situations.
  * *Form strategies.* Form various algorithms and strategies to
search quickly for words without even realising it.


We can add diagonal & backward written words at higher difficulty 
levels. Often a list of the hidden words is provided, but more 
challenging puzzles may let the player figure them out. On a more 
advanced level, word searches are good ways to demonstrate the use of 
searching algorithms. Other variations include solving given math 
puzzles and searching for the answer in the grid.



I am well acquainted with React js, a technology widely used in this 
organization and hope to contribute to it this summer as my GSOC 2019 
project. After studying the present activities in Sugarizer, I feel 
its a place where learning meets fun and I think this activity will 
help take this trend onward. This is just a rough idea of my proposal, 
all reviews and suggestions are most welcome.



Regards,

Sanjana Mundhra


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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC: Proposal for "Create new activities"

[Tony Anderson]

The Jupyter Notebook project is of particular interest to me.

Over the past several GSOC periods, developers have had a problem 
completing their projects within the allotted time. You are proposing to 
take on several projects, any one of which is a big load for one summer.


If you undertake the Jupyter Notebook project, I would hope that is your 
only task for the summer. Completing it in a usable form in the GSOC 
period would be a major, noteworthy accomplishment.


The Jupyter Notebook started life as ipython. The Jupyter implementation 
supports multiple programming languages (e.g. bash, python, web 
(javascript, html5, css), and many others. It can also be used to make 
interactive lessons on science and mathematics topics independent of 
programming).


The essence of the ipython server is that it accepts a url for a file 
(*.ipynb). It then processes this file displaying cells and running 
cells interactively based on the requirements of the notebook author and 
input from the user.


As an activity, (called for example, Jupyter-activity), it should resume 
.ipynb files in the Journal. The browser for this activity can be the 
Browse activity (testing to be sure that the WebKit browser in the 
Browse activity supports Jupyter). This is unlikely to be a 
show-stopper. If executed with start-new, it should enable the user to 
designate a notebook to run (among those in the Journal, Documents 
folder, or a mounted removable device). It should also enable a user to 
create a notebook.


The technology involved in this project is Jupyter. The team at Jupyter 
is friendly and helpful, in my experience. I doubt there will be an 
significant need to modify the Browse activity. One limitation that 
could be addressed en passant is that when Browse is resumed, it 
launches a new instance rather than opening a tab in a running copy. 
This is OK but seems primitive compared to other browsers.


There is a large library online of Jupyter notebooks with many 
tutorials. The first step in this project is to become familiar with 
these notebooks. Jupyter can be installed on Linux distributions via 
Anaconda - but this is overkill for the XO. It can also be installed by 
yum (apt for Ubuntu) but better by pip.


The storage available to the XO is extremely limited (XO has 1GB, other 
models have 4GB). This means that the Anaconda implementation which 
incorporates many additional valuable packages is probably too large for 
Sugar on an XO (still over 80% of the systems in the wild). Even so, the 
Pip install may need some optional capabilities such as Latex and MatLab.


One of the critical parts of an implementation frequently gets left to 
the end and then is not done - user documentation. Thanks to Gonzalo 
Odiard, Sugar has an excellent documentation capability based on Sphinx 
- see help.sugarlabs.org. The 'Jupyter-activity' will need documentation 
that meets the needs of primary school students with limited computer 
experience and limited skills in Englsih. This could include a 
recommended library of Jupyter notebooks which can be used on the XO 
(esp. bash, python, and web langauges).


Tony

Tony

On 3/29/19 3:52 PM, James Cameron wrote:

Thanks, interesting.

Technical comments; Jupyter Notebook Activity, you suggest stripping
down Browse activity.  You might instead presume Browse is present
and call it directly.  This is what the Wikipedia activity does.  It
isn't what the Help activity does.

Please also consider the design and user requirements input in this
closed issue; https://github.com/sugarlabs/GSoC/issues/13 Especially
note Jupyter Lab; a richer environment than a browser alone.

On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 06:22:03PM +0530, Muhammad Usman wrote:

Hello all!
I am Muhammad Usman. I am sharing my draft proposal for Create New Activities
and Write activity in Sugarizer. Please do take a look at it and let me know
your thoughts.
[1]https://gist.github.com/usmanmuhd/ce60a3dd2c43fd5c5fe5154b5bc18750

Regards,
Muhammad Usman

References:

[1] https://gist.github.com/usmanmuhd/ce60a3dd2c43fd5c5fe5154b5bc18750
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal ML activity

[Ahmed ElSabbagh]

Hi Walter,
I Added an illustration of how I imagine it would look like.
I don't exactly understand your question regarding how Algorithm work.
As for CPU intensity, I have to ask how low-end are we talking about? I am
have not used tensorflow before, but this google experiment  (from which I
draw inspiration for this project)
https://experiments.withgoogle.com/teachable-machine, needs only less than
100 images to differentiate between 3 classes, and it runs fast on browser,
it should in theory be able train the model on relatively slow computer
(although with a bit difficulty).
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UJUclV_0otspq0KIYK_ms4wUkdA4VHBc


On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 15:29, Walter Bender  wrote:

> Interesting idea. Could be a fun activity.
> A couple of comments:
> (1) it is a bit thin on details of how you'd implement the app itself.
> What would the interface look like? what sorts of controls would there be?
> (2) Also, in brief, how does your algorithm work? How CPU intensive is it?
> Realistic to run on low-end laptops?
>
> There was some work done at RIT about 5 years ago on a sign-language chat
> for Sugar -- never completed.  Might be worth investigating. If I can, I
> will find you a link.
>
> regards.
>
> -walter
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 9:12 AM Ahmed ElSabbagh <
> ahmed.h.elsabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello I am sending a proposal for Sugar Activity.
>> Can you please provide an honest opinion, do you think we can work on
>> that or is my resume too underwhelming?
>> Thank you in advance
>>
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bCLeTv6fpfD71ExFwMtbB8WRExMspieg/view?usp=sharing
>>
>> ___
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>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>
>
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
> 
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal ML activity

[Walter Bender]

Interesting idea. Could be a fun activity.
A couple of comments:
(1) it is a bit thin on details of how you'd implement the app itself. What
would the interface look like? what sorts of controls would there be?
(2) Also, in brief, how does your algorithm work? How CPU intensive is it?
Realistic to run on low-end laptops?

There was some work done at RIT about 5 years ago on a sign-language chat
for Sugar -- never completed.  Might be worth investigating. If I can, I
will find you a link.

regards.

-walter

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 9:12 AM Ahmed ElSabbagh 
wrote:

> Hello I am sending a proposal for Sugar Activity.
> Can you please provide an honest opinion, do you think we can work on that
> or is my resume too underwhelming?
> Thank you in advance
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bCLeTv6fpfD71ExFwMtbB8WRExMspieg/view?usp=sharing
>
> ___
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> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>


-- 
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC: Proposal for "Create new activities"

[Muhammad Usman]

As I understand it, I need to write a wrapper around jupyter-lab and then
call the browse activity. As for the notebook, it needs to be handled as a
journal object. If so I will make the changes accordingly in the proposal.

Thanks,
Muhammad Usman


On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 1:59 PM 
wrote:

> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 18:52:36 +1100
> From: James Cameron 
> To: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC: Proposal for "Create new activities"
> Message-ID: <20190329075236.gp28...@laptop.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Thanks, interesting.
>
> Technical comments; Jupyter Notebook Activity, you suggest stripping
> down Browse activity.  You might instead presume Browse is present
> and call it directly.  This is what the Wikipedia activity does.  It
> isn't what the Help activity does.
>
> Please also consider the design and user requirements input in this
> closed issue; https://github.com/sugarlabs/GSoC/issues/13 Especially
> note Jupyter Lab; a richer environment than a browser alone.
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 06:22:03PM +0530, Muhammad Usman wrote:
> > Hello all!
> > I am Muhammad Usman. I am sharing my draft proposal for Create New
> Activities
> > and Write activity in Sugarizer. Please do take a look at it and let me
> know
> > your thoughts.
> > [1]https://gist.github.com/usmanmuhd/ce60a3dd2c43fd5c5fe5154b5bc18750
> >
> > Regards,
> > Muhammad Usman
> >
> > References:
> >
> > [1] https://gist.github.com/usmanmuhd/ce60a3dd2c43fd5c5fe5154b5bc18750
>
> > ___
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
>
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC: Proposal for "Create new activities"

[James Cameron]

Thanks, interesting.

Technical comments; Jupyter Notebook Activity, you suggest stripping
down Browse activity.  You might instead presume Browse is present
and call it directly.  This is what the Wikipedia activity does.  It
isn't what the Help activity does.

Please also consider the design and user requirements input in this
closed issue; https://github.com/sugarlabs/GSoC/issues/13 Especially
note Jupyter Lab; a richer environment than a browser alone.

On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 06:22:03PM +0530, Muhammad Usman wrote:
> Hello all!
> I am Muhammad Usman. I am sharing my draft proposal for Create New Activities
> and Write activity in Sugarizer. Please do take a look at it and let me know
> your thoughts.
> [1]https://gist.github.com/usmanmuhd/ce60a3dd2c43fd5c5fe5154b5bc18750
> 
> Regards,
> Muhammad Usman
> 
> References:
> 
> [1] https://gist.github.com/usmanmuhd/ce60a3dd2c43fd5c5fe5154b5bc18750

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSOC proposal

[Pratul Kumar]

Hello Ashish,
Glad to see your interest in  "Improve Sugarizer server dashboard",

   1. Few things which I feel could be better is that You can elaborate the
   proposal a bit, the current proposal looks quite condensed.
   2. Communicate further discussion in the mailing list.
   3. Also, the timeline is quite hard to read, if you can add it in the
   format of a table, then it can improve readability.
   4. You dont need to put the complete link of PR and issues, just write
   their number and attack link to those numbers, this can reduce the number
   of pages needed also visuality will be better.
   5. The Timeline can be more in detail.
   6. Personal view: ( Proposal ranging from 15-20 pages is the best fit,
   in terms of elaboration, readability)

Regards,
Pratul Kumar


On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 10:24 AM Ashish Aggarwal 
wrote:

> Hello sir,
> My name is Ashish aggarwal . My Github profile is " ashish0910
>  " . I want to participate in gsoc19 in
> sugarlabs for the project ' improve sugarizer server dashboard ' and I have
> been contributing to that project for a while now . I have attached my
> proposal. It would be great if you could review and suggest changes in it .
> Thanks
> warm regards
> ashish aggarwal
>


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*GSoC, GCI-Mentor* Sugarlabs,
Coursera Mentor,* HKUST University*
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [GSoC] Proposal Draft of Sugarlabs Social Project

[James Cameron]

Thanks for your proposal.  I've reviewed it.  I make the same comments
in general as I did a few days ago for Daman Tekchandani.  Hope that
helps!

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 04:29:42AM +0800, 罗文博 wrote:
> To whom it may concern:
> 
> Hi! My name is Wenbo Luo, a year 3 student from the Chinese University of Hong
> Kong (Shenzhen). I have sent you a GSoC Self-introduction days ago and I have
> received your advice which are very kind and helpful.
> 
> Here is the link to my draft:
> [1]https://docs.google.com/document/d/
> 1qbN4idA9P6rOBtwJZXzN4qo8R2ljLvgNhrNInBb84aU/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> I will work on this proposal before due. I know it's almost due but still I
> sincerely hope that you could offer some advice.
> 
> Thank you all the same.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Wenbo Luo
> 
> References:
> 
> [1] 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qbN4idA9P6rOBtwJZXzN4qo8R2ljLvgNhrNInBb84aU/edit?usp=sharing

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Re: [Sugar-devel] [GSoC] Proposal Draft of Sugarlabs Social Project

[Samson Goddy]

Could you give a comment access on the doc? To make it easier?

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018, 9:29 PM 罗文博  wrote:

> To whom it may concern:
>
> Hi! My name is Wenbo Luo, a year 3 student from the Chinese University of
> Hong Kong (Shenzhen). I have sent you a GSoC Self-introduction days ago and
> I have received your advice which are very kind and helpful.
>
> Here is the link to my draft:
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qbN4idA9P6rOBtwJZXzN4qo8R2ljLvgNhrNInBb84aU/edit?usp=sharing
>
> I will work on this proposal before due. I know it's almost due but still
> I sincerely hope that you could offer some advice.
>
> Thank you all the same.
>
> Best Regards,
> Wenbo Luo
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>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal status

[Jerry Vonau]

Hi Tony,

> On February 22, 2016 at 1:32 AM Tony Anderson 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi, Jerry
> 
> When I am talking about Sugar, I am referring to 0.106. You will find 
> ds-backup.py and ds-backup.sh in /usr/bin. The shell script determines 
> whether the
> schoolserver is registered and connected and whether a backup is needed 
> (> 24hours). This script is apparently executed via 
> /usr/lib/systemd/system/ds-backup.service.The rsync is accomplished in 
> function rsync_to_xs in ds-backup.py. All of this seems well integrated 
> into Sugar.
> 
I take it that the statements above are for the benefit of others, I
already understand how it works.

> I don't have a school server with live backup here but my recollection 
> is that 3.2.1 last year in Rwanda made snapshots and that they were 
> identified by a date field.
> 

How is ds-backup helpful to all consumers of sugar? Non-XOs users(SoaS) may

not have the olpc repo installed from where this rpm lives.

> I assume the ui interface you mention is the schoolserver gconf 
> settings. In any case, the issue is no more complicated than where the 
> 'nick' is stored.
> 

Sort of, the 'nick' is stored as a user setting(was gconf now gsettings),
however there is a visual UI field in "About Me" where a user can change
his or her 'nick' at will but is populated with information gathered at the
intro screen.

> The user interface is to register the XO and then one can observe that 
> the XO via network settings. (a view of the gconf setting). 

Registration populates the "Collaboration Sever" field. There is no place
to alter the 'backup_url' that ds-backup.py uses from with in the UI, one
has to "re-register". Registration itself has flaws, it requires name
resolution of 'schoolserver', fine if the schoolserver is in full control
of the network, but that is not always possible.

> The backups 
> are stored in /library/users in a directory named from the XO 
> serial-number. I don't believe there is any specific software to support 
> restore. 

At one point there was via xs-moodle but that hasn't worked since a change
in the datastore way back when.(0.86?) This just renders the backups less
useful to the endusers, no way to restore the data easily, leading me to
believe the sole purpose of the backups is to troll through the data. 

> The idmgr (create_user) sets up a public/private key pair for 
> authentication. A timestamp is stored in /usr/olpc/.sugar/defaults to 
> record when the most recent backup was made.
>
> "You are assuming that ds-backup is used. There is now the builtin backup
> to
> usbdrive in the controlpanel, I see no reason that functionality couldn't
> be reused with a backend that is not a usbdrive but some network based
> storage(GSOC task?). Kind of reminds me of the "Example Workflow for
> Via-School-Server Mode"[1] where the connection was a webdav share on the
> 'schoolserver' Come to think of it that is more of a local/remote journal
> layout than a backup service but I'm just using it as an example of a
> network filesystem.
> 
> Tony,
>  From your earlier description of your preferred workflow for the
> journal,
> maybe this is what you are seeking? Not as is but in a general sense?
> Think
> the pictures[1] make a good visual representation of the local/remote
> journals and moving objects between them via "CopyTo". Think to be more
> effective there should be a "MoveTo" (ArchiveTo?) in the dropdown menu
> should this move forward.
> 
> At best this 'builtin' is an independent feature. I am not sure why a 
> feature in the control panel is considered more built in than the 
> registration option.
> My hunch is that the Sugar implementers were not even aware of the 
> ds-backup capability. I suspect this 'builtin' arose because developers 
> were using
> usb drives to backup and restore the datastore. 

Both originate from the same source tar file, with control panel components
being optional to core operation of sugar and third party components like
switch-desktop can be dropped into a known framework within controlpanel.
The current backup came out as a neutered version of what was originally
used in dextrose based deployments[1] with the user interaction moved from
the frame to the control-panel with the schoolserver backend removed.
Remember ds-backup is unsuitable for places where there are no
schoolservers 
or a schoolserver can not be used for whatever reason that may be. Lets not
omit the teaching of good computer habits, making backup copies of your
work on your own. Wasn't a bad first step just need to add back a revised
schoolserver backend.

> In Rwanda, I have used a 
> simple backup.sh and restore.sh one-liner that simply copies the 
> datastore to usb and copies it back.
> 

More scripting in place of a UI feature, but at least that teaches the CLI
so it is not without merit.

> The 'workflow' I am referring to is to enable a user to maintain a 
> remote repository of his/her Journal and to provides means to keep
> the local

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal status

[Tony Anderson]

Hi, Jerry

When I am talking about Sugar, I am referring to 0.106. You will find 
ds-backup.py and ds-backup.sh in /usr/bin. The shell script determines 
whether the
schoolserver is registered and connected and whether a backup is needed 
(> 24hours). This script is apparently executed via 
/usr/lib/systemd/system/ds-backup.service.The rsync is accomplished in 
function rsync_to_xs in ds-backup.py. All of this seems well integrated 
into Sugar.


I don't have a school server with live backup here but my recollection 
is that 3.2.1 last year in Rwanda made snapshots and that they were 
identified by a date field.


I assume the ui interface you mention is the schoolserver gconf 
settings. In any case, the issue is no more complicated than where the 
'nick' is stored.


The user interface is to register the XO and then one can observe that 
the XO via network settings. (a view of the gconf setting). The backups 
are stored in /library/users in a directory named from the XO 
serial-number. I don't believe there is any specific software to support 
restore. The idmgr (create_user) sets up a public/private key pair for 
authentication. A timestamp is stored in /usr/olpc/.sugar/defaults to 
record when the most recent backup was made.


"You are assuming that ds-backup is used. There is now the builtin backup to
usbdrive in the controlpanel, I see no reason that functionality couldn't
be reused with a backend that is not a usbdrive but some network based
storage(GSOC task?). Kind of reminds me of the "Example Workflow for
Via-School-Server Mode"[1] where the connection was a webdav share on the
'schoolserver' Come to think of it that is more of a local/remote journal
layout than a backup service but I'm just using it as an example of a
network filesystem.

Tony,
From your earlier description of your preferred workflow for the journal,
maybe this is what you are seeking? Not as is but in a general sense? Think
the pictures[1] make a good visual representation of the local/remote
journals and moving objects between them via "CopyTo". Think to be more
effective there should be a "MoveTo" (ArchiveTo?) in the dropdown menu
should this move forward.

At best this 'builtin' is an independent feature. I am not sure why a 
feature in the control panel is considered more built in than the 
registration option.
My hunch is that the Sugar implementers were not even aware of the 
ds-backup capability. I suspect this 'builtin' arose because developers 
were using
usb drives to backup and restore the datastore. In Rwanda, I have used a 
simple backup.sh and restore.sh one-liner that simply copies the 
datastore to usb and copies it back.


The 'workflow' I am referring to is to enable a user to maintain a 
remote repository of his/her Journal and to provides means to keep
the local copy as a cache of work-in-progress. The move to/from is as 
simple as using the existing 'keep' selection. The rest is done 
behind-the-scenes by software and requires no user action. User 
intervention is only needed to manage the local store (the school server 
is assumed to have enough capacity).
This enables control with the granularity of individual Journal objects 
- not complete datastores.


Certainly that builtin workflow could be adapted to a school server. A 
USB drive is essentially a directory (root to the usb). It would be 
trivial to create a corresponding directory on a school server. However, 
the screenshots indicate a more complex interface than using 'keep'.


A second question is how to share Journal objects with other users. This 
description seems to ignore the facilities already in place. A user 
should be able to send a file by existing collaboration support. At the 
moment this is done on a case by case basis using activities which 
handle a give mime_type and collaboration. There is no need to 
distinguish between transfers by mesh or school server. If an XO is 
connected to the school server, collaboration is handled through the 
server (issues with tubes aside). This is essentially invisible to the 
user - the user creates a connection and then uses the 
neighborhood/group views to join and communicate.


I suggested OwnCloud as a purpose built environment for sharing files 
between XOs connected to the same school server (or 'cloud'). OwnCloud 
is already available in XSCE but would need appropriate sysadmin 
configuration. This mechanism has the side benefit of giving users a 
purpose-built control over which files in their 'journal' are to be 
shared with which other users.


A more difficult question is how this workflow is migrated from a 
serial-number system to a username system (implied by SOAS and James 
Cameron's Sugar on Ubuntu). As an example, if the Journal 'bundles' are 
stored in OwnCloud by username, then there needs to be a mapping from XO 
serial number to username.


In many deployments the laptops (XOs) are used by multiple users through 
the day. Having each user under their own username and not 'o

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal status

[Jerry Vonau]

Hi Samuel,

> On February 21, 2016 at 5:56 PM Samuel Greenfeld 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Just for the record:
> 
> The XO laptop backup mechanism for Sugar creates separate
> "datastore--MM-DD_HH:MM" directories for each backup.
> 

That is not integrated into sugar(the last time I looked), there is no way
from the UI to alter any of that parameters stored as gconf keys(that might
need attention now... gsettings) in the user's profile that used in the
operation of the service. The rpms were supplied by olpc, these would not
be normally installed on a non-XO sugar install therefore are not present
on anything other than an XO. Think sugar is moving beyond XOs and needs
something better and more universal for all sugar users to use.

> If I recall correctly, the schoolserver also periodically looks through
> these backups, hardlinks identical items to save space, and prunes
> backups
> beyond a set age.
>

I don't recall the hardlinking but there is a default of 3 months of
backups to keep.
 
> I wouldn't be against fixing and/or redesigning XO backup & restore, but
> at
> least on an XS schoolserver these already are versioned.
>

You are assuming that ds-backup is used. There is now the builtin backup to
usbdrive in the controlpanel, I see no reason that functionality couldn't
be reused with a backend that is not a usbdrive but some network based
storage(GSOC task?). Kind of reminds me of the "Example Workflow for
Via-School-Server Mode"[1] where the connection was a webdav share on the
'schoolserver' Come to think of it that is more of a local/remote journal
layout than a backup service but I'm just using it as an example of a
network filesystem.

Tony,
From your earlier description of your preferred workflow for the journal,
maybe this is what you are seeking? Not as is but in a general sense? Think
the pictures[1] make a good visual representation of the local/remote
journals and moving objects between them via "CopyTo". Think to be more
effective there should be a "MoveTo" (ArchiveTo?) in the dropdown menu
should this move forward.

> I have not tried XSCE to see how it handles things.
>

Samuel,
George ported ds-backup to apache2.4, is installed and available for use on
the XSCE. In testing while olpc-au and activity-central were spearheading
the XSCE project the service seemed to work the same as what was offered on
XS's CentOS-6 base. You are welcome to test but I would rather not have to
carry our own version and be the sole point of support, after all the XSCE
is a volunteer driven endeavor.

Jerry

1. https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Transfer_to_many_options

 
> 
> On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 9:40 PM, Tony Anderson 
> wrote:
> 

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal status

[Tony Anderson]

I haven't used the ds_backup.py as released, but AFIK rsync uses the -d 
flag which deletes objects from the backup if they have been deleted in 
the Journal.
While it does make multiple snapshots, AFIK, the restore mechanism does 
not support using them for versioning. I don't believe there are any 
changes in the XSCE implementation form XS-6.


Tony

On 02/22/2016 07:56 AM, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:

Just for the record:

The XO laptop backup mechanism for Sugar creates separate 
"datastore--MM-DD_HH:MM" directories for each backup.


If I recall correctly, the schoolserver also periodically looks 
through these backups, hardlinks identical items to save space, and 
prunes backups beyond a set age.


I wouldn't be against fixing and/or redesigning XO backup & restore, 
but at least on an XS schoolserver these already are versioned.


I have not tried XSCE to see how it handles things.


On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 9:40 PM, Tony Anderson > wrote:


Hi, Sam

Thanks for your comments. These issues need review and comment
within the community.

"Just my 2c, but this complicates the experience a lot.  Do we
show this temp journal entry to the user? If so, wouldn't that be
confusing?  But it we hide it, it becomes more complex.  Eg, a
user is adding the finishing touches to a diagram in Paint, and
adds it to Write activity, however since only the old version is
visible they don't see the image they expected, and become
confused.  Maybe this could be better served by basic git features
in the journal, one of Martin's project ideas I believe."

What I suggest does not change the user's experience of the Journal.

When an activity is launched, it runs as activity.py. If an
activity is resumed (associated with a data file in the Journal),
activity.py loads that Journal object. This is the object that is
saved when the activity terminates. What I am suggesting is that
activity.py should load a copy of the Journal object (which
naturally does not exist in the Journal until saved). This enables
the activity to make a decision to
overwrite the original object or to save a new object.

You may have noticed this in the Journal. When you resume and then
save, that object is now the most recent and no longer appears in
its original chronological position. This reflects that the
original journal object is saved back to the Journal (normally, by
write_file)

The scenario you describe: using Paint and then saving to Write is
intermediated by the Journal. Paint saves the modified image to
the Journal. The Write activity then adds it to its document.
There should be no confusion. Assuming the user gave the image a
new name, causing a new object to be saved or the user saved in
the same name, replacing the object in the Journal. If the user
has doubt, as at present, he/she should run Image Viewer to see
the image.

I really don't see git as relevant to the Journal. The proven
technique of using file names to distinguish objects is easier to
implement and familiar to experienced computer users. There is
nothing to prevent a user from using classproject.1,
classproject.2,  to distinguish versions.

"Browse save files work fine cross network connections.  I made
one at home, and opening it at school I was able to show people
all of my tabs."

This worked because in both cases you are connected to the
internet. Browse is saving urls. Had you opened Browse without a
connection, you would have received an error. In last year's GSOC,
Richa Sehgal added a capability to save an html page explicitly
but this capability has not yet been integrated with Browse.

"Using the metadata is also much harder, it is so easy to just
chuck the json in there.  Even if we use metadata for eg, saving
memorize, the metadata will be so activity specific that it is
hard to use in a reflection tool.  I'm not sure what you want by
this."

I am trying to distinguish saving documents from saving state.
Memorize needs to save state so that a user can resume a game.
Naturally, state information is specific to the activity. However,
it can be saved in the metadata record (saved in the Journal as a
file). When resumed, Memorize can restore its state. Saving the
state information as a document requires that it have a mime_type.
This type would need to be unique to Memorize since no other
activity would know how to process it (e.g. if it were saved as
application/plain-text).

As I understand reflection, the goal is to enable a user to look
back at documents they created or worked on collaboratively. The
Journal offers two impediments to that - clutter from non
document-creating activities and the necessity to erase documents
due to limited storage capacity. I think we need to 

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal status

[Samuel Greenfeld]

Just for the record:

The XO laptop backup mechanism for Sugar creates separate
"datastore--MM-DD_HH:MM" directories for each backup.

If I recall correctly, the schoolserver also periodically looks through
these backups, hardlinks identical items to save space, and prunes backups
beyond a set age.

I wouldn't be against fixing and/or redesigning XO backup & restore, but at
least on an XS schoolserver these already are versioned.

I have not tried XSCE to see how it handles things.


On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 9:40 PM, Tony Anderson 
wrote:

> Hi, Sam
>
> Thanks for your comments. These issues need review and comment within the
> community.
>
> "Just my 2c, but this complicates the experience a lot.  Do we show this
> temp journal entry to the user?  If so, wouldn't that be confusing?  But it
> we hide it, it becomes more complex.  Eg, a user is adding the finishing
> touches to a diagram in Paint, and adds it to Write activity, however since
> only the old version is visible they don't see the image they expected, and
> become confused.  Maybe this could be better served by basic git features
> in the journal, one of Martin's project ideas I believe."
>
> What I suggest does not change the user's experience of the Journal.
>
> When an activity is launched, it runs as activity.py. If an activity is
> resumed (associated with a data file in the Journal), activity.py loads
> that Journal object. This is the object that is saved when the activity
> terminates. What I am suggesting is that
> activity.py should load a copy of the Journal object (which naturally does
> not exist in the Journal until saved). This enables the activity to make a
> decision to
> overwrite the original object or to save a new object.
>
> You may have noticed this in the Journal. When you resume and then save,
> that object is now the most recent and no longer appears in its original
> chronological position. This reflects that the original journal object is
> saved back to the Journal (normally, by write_file)
>
> The scenario you describe: using Paint and then saving to Write is
> intermediated by the Journal. Paint saves the modified image to the
> Journal. The Write activity then adds it to its document. There should be
> no confusion. Assuming the user gave the image a new name, causing a new
> object to be saved or the user saved in the same name, replacing the object
> in the Journal. If the user has doubt, as at present, he/she should run
> Image Viewer to see the image.
>
> I really don't see git as relevant to the Journal. The proven technique of
> using file names to distinguish objects is easier to implement and familiar
> to experienced computer users. There is nothing to prevent a user from
> using classproject.1, classproject.2,  to distinguish versions.
>
> "Browse save files work fine cross network connections.  I made one at
> home, and opening it at school I was able to show people all of my tabs."
>
> This worked because in both cases you are connected to the internet.
> Browse is saving urls. Had you opened Browse without a connection, you
> would have received an error. In last year's GSOC, Richa Sehgal added a
> capability to save an html page explicitly but this capability has not yet
> been integrated with Browse.
>
> "Using the metadata is also much harder, it is so easy to just chuck the
> json in there.  Even if we use metadata for eg, saving memorize, the
> metadata will be so activity specific that it is hard to use in a
> reflection tool.  I'm not sure what you want by this."
>
> I am trying to distinguish saving documents from saving state. Memorize
> needs to save state so that a user can resume a game. Naturally, state
> information is specific to the activity. However, it can be saved in the
> metadata record (saved in the Journal as a file). When resumed, Memorize
> can restore its state. Saving the state information as a document requires
> that it have a mime_type. This type would need to be unique to Memorize
> since no other activity would know how to process it (e.g. if it were saved
> as application/plain-text).
>
> As I understand reflection, the goal is to enable a user to look back at
> documents they created or worked on collaboratively. The Journal offers two
> impediments to that - clutter from non document-creating activities and the
> necessity to erase documents due to limited storage capacity. I think we
> need to distinguish between statistical analysis of a user's activities
> (the NSA use of metadata) and using the Journal to show the user a record
> of their own educational journey.
>
>
> "I have to agree with you here.  Having a kind of seamless journal that
> exists partially locally and fully on the school server would be nice.  But
> can a person designing this amuse that the user will have school server
> access most of the time?"
>
> The design is to invoke a backup service when the XO connects to the
> school server. This service recognizes objects which have been mod

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal status

[Tony Anderson]

Hi, Sam

Thanks for your comments. These issues need review and comment within 
the community.


"Just my 2c, but this complicates the experience a lot.  Do we show this 
temp journal entry to the user?  If so, wouldn't that be confusing?  But 
it we hide it, it becomes more complex.  Eg, a user is adding the 
finishing touches to a diagram in Paint, and adds it to Write activity, 
however since only the old version is visible they don't see the image 
they expected, and become confused.  Maybe this could be better served 
by basic git features in the journal, one of Martin's project ideas I 
believe."


What I suggest does not change the user's experience of the Journal.

When an activity is launched, it runs as activity.py. If an activity is 
resumed (associated with a data file in the Journal), activity.py loads 
that Journal object. This is the object that is saved when the activity 
terminates. What I am suggesting is that
activity.py should load a copy of the Journal object (which naturally 
does not exist in the Journal until saved). This enables the activity to 
make a decision to

overwrite the original object or to save a new object.

You may have noticed this in the Journal. When you resume and then save, 
that object is now the most recent and no longer appears in its original 
chronological position. This reflects that the original journal object 
is saved back to the Journal (normally, by write_file)


The scenario you describe: using Paint and then saving to Write is 
intermediated by the Journal. Paint saves the modified image to the 
Journal. The Write activity then adds it to its document. There should 
be no confusion. Assuming the user gave the image a new name, causing a 
new object to be saved or the user saved in the same name, replacing the 
object in the Journal. If the user has doubt, as at present, he/she 
should run Image Viewer to see the image.


I really don't see git as relevant to the Journal. The proven technique 
of using file names to distinguish objects is easier to implement and 
familiar to experienced computer users. There is nothing to prevent a 
user from using classproject.1, classproject.2,  to distinguish 
versions.


"Browse save files work fine cross network connections.  I made one at 
home, and opening it at school I was able to show people all of my tabs."


This worked because in both cases you are connected to the internet. 
Browse is saving urls. Had you opened Browse without a connection, you 
would have received an error. In last year's GSOC, Richa Sehgal added a 
capability to save an html page explicitly but this capability has not 
yet been integrated with Browse.


"Using the metadata is also much harder, it is so easy to just chuck the 
json in there.  Even if we use metadata for eg, saving memorize, the 
metadata will be so activity specific that it is hard to use in a 
reflection tool.  I'm not sure what you want by this."


I am trying to distinguish saving documents from saving state. Memorize 
needs to save state so that a user can resume a game. Naturally, state 
information is specific to the activity. However, it can be saved in the 
metadata record (saved in the Journal as a file). When resumed, Memorize 
can restore its state. Saving the state information as a document 
requires that it have a mime_type. This type would need to be unique to 
Memorize since no other activity would know how to process it (e.g. if 
it were saved as application/plain-text).


As I understand reflection, the goal is to enable a user to look back at 
documents they created or worked on collaboratively. The Journal offers 
two impediments to that - clutter from non document-creating activities 
and the necessity to erase documents due to limited storage capacity. I 
think we need to distinguish between statistical analysis of a user's 
activities (the NSA use of metadata) and using the Journal to show the 
user a record of their own educational journey.



"I have to agree with you here.  Having a kind of seamless journal that 
exists partially locally and fully on the school server would be nice.  
But can a person designing this amuse that the user will have school 
server access most of the time?"


The design is to invoke a backup service when the XO connects to the 
school server. This service recognizes objects which have been modified 
or which are new and saves the associated documents to the server-based 
store. Currently, I use a modified ds_backup.py to save to the /users 
directory on the school server (by serial number of the XO). This 
program operates using datastore as the input. The suggestion of using 
OwnCloud would make the files on the school server visible to the student.


"How do you it fulfilling that need?  Are we exposing the owncloud web 
interface to children?  I pictured a seemless journal interface that 
merged the online storage and the local into one and provided means for 
pinning things locally.  I however picture the gro

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal status

[Lionel Laské]

Hi all,

Just added a bunch of Sugarizer projects on the page:
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2016#Sugarizer

If some of you are interested to be co-mentor on these projects, do not
hesitate to add your name.

Best regards from France.

   Lionel.
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal status

[Sam P.]

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 6:00 PM Tony Anderson  wrote:

> Hi, Walter
>
> I have some concerns about the proposed GSOC tasks as well as some ideas
> for new tasks.
>
> I agree that the Journal needs rethinking. Below are my thoughts
> (re-thoughts?).
>
> Specifically,
>
> The Journal is the file system for Sugar. It does not use directories but
> instead was intended to collect objects by tag (a la Picasa). Currently,
> the user sees
> a scrolled list of objects in chronological order. However, selection is
> by activity or media type, not by a user defined criteria (as represented
> in other systems by the directory).
>
> The Journal acts as an activity with awkward consequences for the user. On
> the keyboard, the icon for the Journal (a magnifying glass or search icon -
> not the icon shown in the frame) is to the left of the zoom group on the
> keyboard and to the right on the frame. If the Journal is selected, it
> replaces the current activity when the activity key is pressed. It also
> appears as an activity when using alt-tab. The first makes using
> screenshots awkward. Screenshots are given a title by the system of
> 'Screenshot of '. The user needs to switch to the Journal to provide a
> meaningful name. However, the user must open the frame and click on the
> activity icon to return to it. If the Journal were viewed as a Sugar
> service, the activity key would return the user to make another screen shot
> or continue whatever the task is. Similarly, it is convenient to present
> the user with instructions to perform a task using a Sugar activity (e.g.
> Write). The instructions can be given by a web page or by a document in a
> different activity. For example, a user could show a flag as an image in
> Image Viewer and try to duplicate the flag with TurtleBlocks. However,
> using alt-tab to switch between the activities requires cycling through the
> irrelevant Journal activity or open the frame to click on the activity icon.
>
> More importantly, when a Journal object is launched from the Journal
> activity, it is immediately loaded into activity.py. Therefore, any
> subsequent action by the user will be saved and the previous object will be
> overwritten. Suppose I resume the Paint Activity to continue making a
> picture. However, I decide that after some strokes, the original picture
> was better. There is nothing as a user I can do to revert to the original.
> I suspect the reference to git may be intended to address this problem.
> When an object is launched, activity.py should make a clone. The user
> should then have the option to revert to the original or to overwrite it or
> to change it's name so that a new object is created alongside the original.
> I believe an implementation of the 'save/save as' logic of virtually all
> other systems should be provided.
>

Just my 2c, but this complicates the experience a lot.  Do we show this
temp journal entry to the user?  If so, wouldn't that be confusing?  But it
we hide it, it becomes more complex.  Eg, a user is adding the finishing
touches to a diagram in Paint, and adds it to Write activity, however since
only the old version is visible they don't see the image they expected, and
become confused.  Maybe this could be better served by basic git features
in the journal, one of Martin's project ideas I believe.


>
> Probably, in the interests of 'reflection' or possibly statistical data,
> the Journal saves every activity instance - by default with the name of the
> activity. Further,
> most activities now implement write_file to create a data file associated
> with the object. This creates clutter in the Journal and takes storage for
> meaningless data files. For example, the Browse activity saves a data file
> containing URLs of open tabs. Aside from the fact that this creates
> spurious error messages if Browse is opened in a different network
> environment, it creates the unnecessary need to save a data file. I believe
> that activities should only save a data file if the user supplies a name
> for it and that activities should save state in the metadata, not in a data
> file. Naturally, it may be desirable for Memorize to save its state so the
> user can resume the game - this can be done by a field in the metadata.
> However, when the Paint Activity saves a file, it is reasonable to assume
> it contains an image (usable, for example, by the Image Viewer).
>

Browse save files work fine cross network connections.  I made one at home,
and opening it at school I was able to show people all of my tabs.

Using the metadata is also much harder, it is so easy to just chuck the
json in there.  Even if we use metadata for eg, saving memorize, the
metadata will be so activity specific that it is hard to use in a
reflection tool.  I'm not sure what you want by this.


>
> The XO has limited storage capacity. A freshly installed XO-1 image leaves
> about 300MB free space. A freshly installed image on other models with 4GB
> capacity leaves 1.9GB

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal status

[Walter Bender]

I added a section "Sugar on the Ground". I left out the "not Sugar"
projects: flashing XOs, anti-theft. I added a few of the more controversial
UI proposals, but they merit discussion. IMHO, we made a mistake when we
removed the obligatory "commit message" when exiting activities.

-walter

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 2:14 AM, Walter Bender 
wrote:

> Thanks Tony. I'll give this a careful read in the AM. I'm at the end of my
> productive energy level at the moment.
>
> -walter
>
> On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 2:00 AM, Tony Anderson 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi, Walter
>>
>> I have some concerns about the proposed GSOC tasks as well as some ideas
>> for new tasks.
>>
>> I agree that the Journal needs rethinking. Below are my thoughts
>> (re-thoughts?).
>>
>> Specifically,
>>
>> The Journal is the file system for Sugar. It does not use directories but
>> instead was intended to collect objects by tag (a la Picasa). Currently,
>> the user sees
>> a scrolled list of objects in chronological order. However, selection is
>> by activity or media type, not by a user defined criteria (as represented
>> in other systems by the directory).
>>
>> The Journal acts as an activity with awkward consequences for the user.
>> On the keyboard, the icon for the Journal (a magnifying glass or search
>> icon - not the icon shown in the frame) is to the left of the zoom group on
>> the keyboard and to the right on the frame. If the Journal is selected, it
>> replaces the current activity when the activity key is pressed. It also
>> appears as an activity when using alt-tab. The first makes using
>> screenshots awkward. Screenshots are given a title by the system of
>> 'Screenshot of '. The user needs to switch to the Journal to provide a
>> meaningful name. However, the user must open the frame and click on the
>> activity icon to return to it. If the Journal were viewed as a Sugar
>> service, the activity key would return the user to make another screen shot
>> or continue whatever the task is. Similarly, it is convenient to present
>> the user with instructions to perform a task using a Sugar activity (e.g.
>> Write). The instructions can be given by a web page or by a document in a
>> different activity. For example, a user could show a flag as an image in
>> Image Viewer and try to duplicate the flag with TurtleBlocks. However,
>> using alt-tab to switch between the activities requires cycling through the
>> irrelevant Journal activity or open the frame to click on the activity icon.
>>
>> More importantly, when a Journal object is launched from the Journal
>> activity, it is immediately loaded into activity.py. Therefore, any
>> subsequent action by the user will be saved and the previous object will be
>> overwritten. Suppose I resume the Paint Activity to continue making a
>> picture. However, I decide that after some strokes, the original picture
>> was better. There is nothing as a user I can do to revert to the original.
>> I suspect the reference to git may be intended to address this problem.
>> When an object is launched, activity.py should make a clone. The user
>> should then have the option to revert to the original or to overwrite it or
>> to change it's name so that a new object is created alongside the original.
>> I believe an implementation of the 'save/save as' logic of virtually all
>> other systems should be provided.
>>
>> Probably, in the interests of 'reflection' or possibly statistical data,
>> the Journal saves every activity instance - by default with the name of the
>> activity. Further,
>> most activities now implement write_file to create a data file associated
>> with the object. This creates clutter in the Journal and takes storage for
>> meaningless data files. For example, the Browse activity saves a data file
>> containing URLs of open tabs. Aside from the fact that this creates
>> spurious error messages if Browse is opened in a different network
>> environment, it creates the unnecessary need to save a data file. I believe
>> that activities should only save a data file if the user supplies a name
>> for it and that activities should save state in the metadata, not in a data
>> file. Naturally, it may be desirable for Memorize to save its state so the
>> user can resume the game - this can be done by a field in the metadata.
>> However, when the Paint Activity saves a file, it is reasonable to assume
>> it contains an image (usable, for example, by the Image Viewer).
>>
>> The XO has limited storage capacity. A freshly installed XO-1 image
>> leaves about 300MB free space. A freshly installed image on other models
>> with 4GB capacity leaves 1.9GB free space. Today, it is almost impossible
>> to buy a USB stick with 2GB storage or less. When the available storage is
>> less than 50MB, the user sees a modal dialog saying the Journal is full
>> with the only option to look at the Journal. The Journal activity shows the
>> amount of available storage which could help a user avoid going below the
>> 50MB limi

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal status

[Walter Bender]

Thanks Tony. I'll give this a careful read in the AM. I'm at the end of my
productive energy level at the moment.

-walter

On Sat, Feb 20, 2016 at 2:00 AM, Tony Anderson 
wrote:

> Hi, Walter
>
> I have some concerns about the proposed GSOC tasks as well as some ideas
> for new tasks.
>
> I agree that the Journal needs rethinking. Below are my thoughts
> (re-thoughts?).
>
> Specifically,
>
> The Journal is the file system for Sugar. It does not use directories but
> instead was intended to collect objects by tag (a la Picasa). Currently,
> the user sees
> a scrolled list of objects in chronological order. However, selection is
> by activity or media type, not by a user defined criteria (as represented
> in other systems by the directory).
>
> The Journal acts as an activity with awkward consequences for the user. On
> the keyboard, the icon for the Journal (a magnifying glass or search icon -
> not the icon shown in the frame) is to the left of the zoom group on the
> keyboard and to the right on the frame. If the Journal is selected, it
> replaces the current activity when the activity key is pressed. It also
> appears as an activity when using alt-tab. The first makes using
> screenshots awkward. Screenshots are given a title by the system of
> 'Screenshot of '. The user needs to switch to the Journal to provide a
> meaningful name. However, the user must open the frame and click on the
> activity icon to return to it. If the Journal were viewed as a Sugar
> service, the activity key would return the user to make another screen shot
> or continue whatever the task is. Similarly, it is convenient to present
> the user with instructions to perform a task using a Sugar activity (e.g.
> Write). The instructions can be given by a web page or by a document in a
> different activity. For example, a user could show a flag as an image in
> Image Viewer and try to duplicate the flag with TurtleBlocks. However,
> using alt-tab to switch between the activities requires cycling through the
> irrelevant Journal activity or open the frame to click on the activity icon.
>
> More importantly, when a Journal object is launched from the Journal
> activity, it is immediately loaded into activity.py. Therefore, any
> subsequent action by the user will be saved and the previous object will be
> overwritten. Suppose I resume the Paint Activity to continue making a
> picture. However, I decide that after some strokes, the original picture
> was better. There is nothing as a user I can do to revert to the original.
> I suspect the reference to git may be intended to address this problem.
> When an object is launched, activity.py should make a clone. The user
> should then have the option to revert to the original or to overwrite it or
> to change it's name so that a new object is created alongside the original.
> I believe an implementation of the 'save/save as' logic of virtually all
> other systems should be provided.
>
> Probably, in the interests of 'reflection' or possibly statistical data,
> the Journal saves every activity instance - by default with the name of the
> activity. Further,
> most activities now implement write_file to create a data file associated
> with the object. This creates clutter in the Journal and takes storage for
> meaningless data files. For example, the Browse activity saves a data file
> containing URLs of open tabs. Aside from the fact that this creates
> spurious error messages if Browse is opened in a different network
> environment, it creates the unnecessary need to save a data file. I believe
> that activities should only save a data file if the user supplies a name
> for it and that activities should save state in the metadata, not in a data
> file. Naturally, it may be desirable for Memorize to save its state so the
> user can resume the game - this can be done by a field in the metadata.
> However, when the Paint Activity saves a file, it is reasonable to assume
> it contains an image (usable, for example, by the Image Viewer).
>
> The XO has limited storage capacity. A freshly installed XO-1 image leaves
> about 300MB free space. A freshly installed image on other models with 4GB
> capacity leaves 1.9GB free space. Today, it is almost impossible to buy a
> USB stick with 2GB storage or less. When the available storage is less than
> 50MB, the user sees a modal dialog saying the Journal is full with the only
> option to look at the Journal. The Journal activity shows the amount of
> available storage which could help a user avoid going below the 50MB limit
> but is no help to correct the problem. Currently Sugar provides no help to
> the user in dealing with this problem. Most deployments I am familiar with
> reflash the laptop when this happens. So much for reflection. Essentially
> this step erases the user's prior work.
>
> Journal backup, according to James Cameron, is beyond the scope of Sugar.
> The present Sugar-independent (?!?) scheme was developed by Martin Langhoff
> usin

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal status

[Tony Anderson]

Hi, Walter

I have some concerns about the proposed GSOC tasks as well as some ideas 
for new tasks.


I agree that the Journal needs rethinking. Below are my thoughts 
(re-thoughts?).


Specifically,

The Journal is the file system for Sugar. It does not use directories 
but instead was intended to collect objects by tag (a la Picasa). 
Currently, the user sees
a scrolled list of objects in chronological order. However, selection is 
by activity or media type, not by a user defined criteria (as 
represented in other systems by the directory).


The Journal acts as an activity with awkward consequences for the user. 
On the keyboard, the icon for the Journal (a magnifying glass or search 
icon - not the icon shown in the frame) is to the left of the zoom group 
on the keyboard and to the right on the frame. If the Journal is 
selected, it replaces the current activity when the activity key is 
pressed. It also appears as an activity when using alt-tab. The first 
makes using screenshots awkward. Screenshots are given a title by the 
system of 'Screenshot of '. The user needs to switch to the Journal 
to provide a meaningful name. However, the user must open the frame and 
click on the activity icon to return to it. If the Journal were viewed 
as a Sugar service, the activity key would return the user to make 
another screen shot or continue whatever the task is. Similarly, it is 
convenient to present the user with instructions to perform a task using 
a Sugar activity (e.g. Write). The instructions can be given by a web 
page or by a document in a different activity. For example, a user could 
show a flag as an image in Image Viewer and try to duplicate the flag 
with TurtleBlocks. However, using alt-tab to switch between the 
activities requires cycling through the irrelevant Journal activity or 
open the frame to click on the activity icon.


More importantly, when a Journal object is launched from the Journal 
activity, it is immediately loaded into activity.py. Therefore, any 
subsequent action by the user will be saved and the previous object will 
be overwritten. Suppose I resume the Paint Activity to continue making a 
picture. However, I decide that after some strokes, the original picture 
was better. There is nothing as a user I can do to revert to the 
original. I suspect the reference to git may be intended to address this 
problem. When an object is launched, activity.py should make a clone. 
The user should then have the option to revert to the original or to 
overwrite it or to change it's name so that a new object is created 
alongside the original. I believe an implementation of the 'save/save 
as' logic of virtually all other systems should be provided.


Probably, in the interests of 'reflection' or possibly statistical data, 
the Journal saves every activity instance - by default with the name of 
the activity. Further,
most activities now implement write_file to create a data file 
associated with the object. This creates clutter in the Journal and 
takes storage for meaningless data files. For example, the Browse 
activity saves a data file containing URLs of open tabs. Aside from the 
fact that this creates spurious error messages if Browse is opened in a 
different network environment, it creates the unnecessary need to save a 
data file. I believe that activities should only save a data file if the 
user supplies a name for it and that activities should save state in the 
metadata, not in a data file. Naturally, it may be desirable for 
Memorize to save its state so the user can resume the game - this can be 
done by a field in the metadata. However, when the Paint Activity saves 
a file, it is reasonable to assume it contains an image (usable, for 
example, by the Image Viewer).


The XO has limited storage capacity. A freshly installed XO-1 image 
leaves about 300MB free space. A freshly installed image on other models 
with 4GB capacity leaves 1.9GB free space. Today, it is almost 
impossible to buy a USB stick with 2GB storage or less. When the 
available storage is less than 50MB, the user sees a modal dialog saying 
the Journal is full with the only option to look at the Journal. The 
Journal activity shows the amount of available storage which could help 
a user avoid going below the 50MB limit but is no help to correct the 
problem. Currently Sugar provides no help to the user in dealing with 
this problem. Most deployments I am familiar with reflash the laptop 
when this happens. So much for reflection. Essentially this step erases 
the user's prior work.


Journal backup, according to James Cameron, is beyond the scope of 
Sugar. The present Sugar-independent (?!?) scheme was developed by 
Martin Langhoff using rsync to create snapshots on the school server. 
This was a bad decision. If a user deletes an object from the Joural on 
the XO to create space, that object is deleted from the backup. The 
backup should be considered the actual repository of Journal entries

Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc proposal - Javascript Collaboration

[Gonzalo Odiard]

Be sure you have it loaded in www.google-melange.com/


On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 2:53 PM, ayush tiwari wrote:

> Hey everyone , this is my proposal
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2014/ayush/js-collaboration .
> Please take a look and give feedback.
>
> --
> Ayush Tiwari
> 2ndyr, Mechanical Engg.
> IIT Roorkee
> http://about.me/ayushtiwari
>
> ___
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> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
>


-- 
Gonzalo Odiard

SugarLabs - Learning Software for children
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSOC Proposal: I need your help!

[Gonzalo Odiard]

You said " To achieve this, I will adapt Etoys virtual machine for Android
to enable multitouch events."

Will this work in the linux vm? We are using that in the xo-4

Gonzalo


On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Gabriel Hernán Perez <
glpp2014.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello everyone!
> I'm just writing to tell you that i'm almost done with my GSOC proposal.
> All that's left to do is getting opinions from you :)
> Here's a link to it:
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2014/Etoys_Touch_UI
> Anything I can include in the 'impact on the community' section will be
> much appreciated.
> Gabriel
>
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> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
>


-- 
Gonzalo Odiard

SugarLabs - Learning Software for children
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal for "Bulletin Board"

[Walter Bender]

Looks good. But please add a link to the Feature as described in the Wiki:

http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Human_Interface_Guidelines/The_Laptop_Experience/Bulletin_Boards

regards.

-walter

On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 1:05 AM, Athar Haque  wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> I have finally sketched my GSoC 2014 proposal for Bulletin Board project.
> Since this is my initial draft, it would be great if the mentors and
> contributors can give their feedback so that I can make it a better
> proposal.
>
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2014/native/Bulletin_Board
>
> Awaiting for the feedback :)
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Nazrul
>
> (IRC - native)



-- 
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Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [GSOC proposal]Language Primer

[Edward Cherlin]

Learning languages is an essential part of the mission, so I am glad
to see your proposal.

You don't explain how you intend to teach grammar and usage. Can you
tell us more?

Will you include practice on speech sounds and intonation?

我在英国学中国话.

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 03:04, Zhang Yao  wrote:
> Hi !
> I'm an undergraduate student from China and I want to participate in the
> GSOC 2010 for Sugar Labs. I've already written my proposal on Sugar Lab's
> Wiki and I would like to have some feedbacks from the community. I would
> really appreciate it if you could spare some of your precious time to pay a
> visit to my wiki page and please do not hesitate to give feedbacks if you
> have any thoughts or comments about it. Here's the URL :
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2010/Language_Primer
> and I am looking forward to hearing from you soon :)
> Best Wishes!
>
> --
> School of Computer Science
> Fudan University, Shanghai, China
> Yao Zhang
> e-mail:saturnt...@gmail.com
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>
>



-- 
Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
http://www.earthtreasury.org/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] [GSOC proposal]Language Primer

[Christoph Derndorfer]

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Zhang Yao  wrote:

> Hi !
> I'm an undergraduate student from China and I want to participate in the
> GSOC 2010 for Sugar Labs. I've already written my proposal on Sugar Lab's
> Wiki and I would like to have some feedbacks from the community. I would
> really appreciate it if you could spare some of your precious time to pay a
> visit to my wiki page and please do not hesitate to give feedbacks if you
> have any thoughts or comments about it. Here's the URL :
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/2010/Language_Primer
> and I am looking forward to hearing from you soon :)
>

Hi again,

just looked at your proposal page and it seems like things are coming
together nicely:-)

Three quick thoughts:

(a) I think the proposal page could use an extra sentence or two about the
teacher's possibilities. You do mention their ability to add, modify or
remove database entries but it's not clear how this is going to be
implemented. Will there be some sort of authoring tool for teachers?
(b) Is there a way for a teacher or possibly even a student or parent to add
things to the database? If so how could these changes be re-distributed and
shared with other users?
(c) I assume you thought of this but I think it's important to consider
non-English use of the activity so things like non-Western characters,
right-to-left languages, etc. should probably be supported (unless it's
decided that this is too big a scope for now which might also be a
reasonable choice).

Cheers,
Christoph

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Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc proposal: Speech Synthesis

[James Simmons]

Chirag,

I still haven't run your code, but I did take a good look at it.  I 
expected it to look quite a bit like the code I and Aleksey Lim came up 
with for Read Etexts.  I was surprised to find that it didn't, but parts 
of it did look familiar to me because it looks like you're trying an 
approach that I tried and was forced to give up on.  What it looks like 
is you're sending the words to espeak one at a time, after highlighting 
them in the text viewer.  If that's what you're doing then you're 
launching espeak for each and every word, creating a .WAV file for that 
word, and then using aplay to play the word.  On a sufficiently powerful 
machine that works but sounds awful.  On an XO it doesn't work at all.

If this is what you are doing then have a look at the code for Read 
Etexts.  In that code I make a version of the text that has markup to 
indicate the beginning of each word.  Originally speech-dispatcher used 
that markup to do callbacks into my code, telling it which word to 
highlight.  Aleksey Lim wrote a gstreamer plugin for espeak that 
replaced speech-dispatcher but did the same thing.  His plugin works 
better and requires no configuration.

I didn't come up with this myself; someone from the speech-dispatcher 
mailing list suggested it.  It isn't perfect, but I'm pretty sure it 
works better than what you are attempting.

James Simmons


James Simmons wrote:
> Chirag,
>
> I won't be able to try out your code for awhile, but I did look at it 
> and noticed that while you refer to it as an "activity" it is not in 
> fact packaged as an "Activity".  Even if you intend for this code to 
> wind up being a part of Sugar itself, there is no reason you couldn't 
> make it an Activity now, and there would be advantages to doing that.  
> For one thing, it would be easier to try out.  The easier something is 
> to test, the more testing is done, and the better quality of testing 
> is done.  Plus the Activity could be used later by those unwilling to 
> update their XO's to the latest Sugar.
>
> Other than creating an SVG icon with Inkscape it wouldn't take much 
> work to make this a real Activity.
>
> James Simmons
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:33:26 +0530
>> From: chirag jain 
>> Subject: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc proposal: Speech Synthesis
>> To: sugar-devel 
>> Message-ID:
>> 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I proposed for the speech-synthesis in Gsoc 09. My proposal can be 
>> viewed at :
>>
>> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/speech-synthesis
>>
>> As a first phase of my development, I have implemented the speech and
>> karoke style coloring of the text. A basic speech configuration
>> manager has also been implemented to alter the volume, pitch and rate
>> of the speech.
>>
>> It would be great if you can test the activity.
>> Please download the speech-synthesis.zip from the link:
>>
>> http://code.google.com/p/speech-synthesis/downloads/list
>>
>> I have also included a detailed documentation of the activity.
>>
>> It would be great if you can send some feedbacks to me so that I can
>> improve upon his activity.
>>
>> Regards
>>   
>
>


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Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc proposal: Speech Synthesis

[Jonas Smedegaard]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: RIPEMD160

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 01:48:41PM -0700, Edward Cherlin wrote:
>On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>> The code uses espeak synthesis as backend.  Languages supported are here
>> (linking to a page on how to contribute additional languages):
>> http://espeak.sourceforge.net/languages.html
>
>I see. Lots still to do. I'll ask jonsd, the project contact.

Beware also of licensing: Some material (especially that from mbrola) is 
restricted to non-commercial and non-military use, which makes it unfit 
for distribution by Debian and probably others too.


  - Jonas

- -- 
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc proposal: Speech Synthesis

[Edward Cherlin]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 12:46:22PM -0700, Edward Cherlin wrote:
>>On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 12:03 AM, chirag jain wrote:
>>> A basic speech configuration manager has also been implemented to
>>> alter the volume, pitch and rate of the speech.
>>
>>Will it be able to handle tonal languages such as Vietnamese or Yoruba
>>(Nigeria)?
>>
>>How would this system handle creation of voices for different
>>languages? Are we at the point where we can request recordings of
>>phoneme samples for the target languages in Pootle?
>
> The project seems to be a _frontend_ for speech synthesis, not inventing
> a whole new method of speech synthesis itself (which would be far too
> much for a GSoC project).

Right. So my questions translate to

o Do we know whether e-speak can handle tonal languages?
o Is this project far enough advanced so that we should ask Sugar Labs
for a speech repository, and start recruiting linguists (to give us
the phoneme data) and native speakers (to make the recordings)?

> The code uses espeak synthesis as backend.  Languages supported are here
> (linking to a page on how to contribute additional languages):
> http://espeak.sourceforge.net/languages.html

I see. Lots still to do. I'll ask jonsd, the project contact.

> Kind regards,
>
>  - Jonas
>
> - --
> * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt
> * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
>
>  [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private
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> TdsAnidpf4rdAyLANEQ45WDW0CrNG9fg
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> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc proposal: Speech Synthesis

[Jonas Smedegaard]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: RIPEMD160

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 12:46:22PM -0700, Edward Cherlin wrote:
>On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 12:03 AM, chirag jain wrote:
>> A basic speech configuration manager has also been implemented to 
>> alter the volume, pitch and rate of the speech.
>
>Will it be able to handle tonal languages such as Vietnamese or Yoruba 
>(Nigeria)?
>
>How would this system handle creation of voices for different 
>languages? Are we at the point where we can request recordings of 
>phoneme samples for the target languages in Pootle?

The project seems to be a _frontend_ for speech synthesis, not inventing 
a whole new method of speech synthesis itself (which would be far too 
much for a GSoC project).

The code uses espeak synthesis as backend.  Languages supported are here 
(linking to a page on how to contribute additional languages): 
http://espeak.sourceforge.net/languages.html



Kind regards,

  - Jonas

- -- 
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc proposal: Speech Synthesis

[Edward Cherlin]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 12:03 AM, chirag jain wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I proposed for the speech-synthesis in Gsoc 09. My proposal can be viewed at :
>
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/speech-synthesis
>
> As a first phase of my development, I have implemented the speech and
> karoke style coloring of the text.

Thank you. I have long been waiting for this.

http://www.olpcnews.com/content/ebooks/effective_adult_literacy_program.html

> A basic speech configuration
> manager has also been implemented to alter the volume, pitch and rate
> of the speech.

Will it be able to handle tonal languages such as Vietnamese or Yoruba
(Nigeria)?

How would this system handle creation of voices for different
languages? Are we at the point where we can request recordings of
phoneme samples for the target languages in Pootle?

> It would be great if you can test the activity.
> Please download the speech-synthesis.zip from the link:
>
> http://code.google.com/p/speech-synthesis/downloads/list
>
> I have also included a detailed documentation of the activity.
>
> It would be great if you can send some feedbacks to me so that I can
> improve upon his activity.
>
> Regards
> --
> Chirag Jain
>
> Undergraduate Student
> Netaji Subash Institute of Technology
> New Delhi
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc proposal: Speech Synthesis

[James Simmons]

Chirag,

I won't be able to try out your code for awhile, but I did look at it 
and noticed that while you refer to it as an "activity" it is not in 
fact packaged as an "Activity".  Even if you intend for this code to 
wind up being a part of Sugar itself, there is no reason you couldn't 
make it an Activity now, and there would be advantages to doing that.  
For one thing, it would be easier to try out.  The easier something is 
to test, the more testing is done, and the better quality of testing is 
done.  Plus the Activity could be used later by those unwilling to 
update their XO's to the latest Sugar.

Other than creating an SVG icon with Inkscape it wouldn't take much work 
to make this a real Activity.

James Simmons


> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:33:26 +0530
> From: chirag jain 
> Subject: [Sugar-devel] Gsoc proposal: Speech Synthesis
> To: sugar-devel 
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi,
>
> I proposed for the speech-synthesis in Gsoc 09. My proposal can be viewed at :
>
> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/speech-synthesis
>
> As a first phase of my development, I have implemented the speech and
> karoke style coloring of the text. A basic speech configuration
> manager has also been implemented to alter the volume, pitch and rate
> of the speech.
>
> It would be great if you can test the activity.
> Please download the speech-synthesis.zip from the link:
>
> http://code.google.com/p/speech-synthesis/downloads/list
>
> I have also included a detailed documentation of the activity.
>
> It would be great if you can send some feedbacks to me so that I can
> improve upon his activity.
>
> Regards
>   


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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal: version support for data store and Journal

[Sascha Silbe]

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 02:53:39PM -0400, Bobby Powers wrote:


Indeed, I think the Gnome work referred to is Gnome Zeitgeist [1], and
is scheduled for release as part of 'GNOME 3.0' in a year.
I just got around to looking into it (was on my list for quite some time 
now) and I'm not overly pleased with it. The UI seems rather cluttered 
on first sight (and the video is so fast and without any explanation 
that there's no second sight) and the TODO list reads like it's more of 
a search engine than an information management (i.e. _storage_ and 
retrieval) system.


Zeitgeist seems to be the file manager overhaul, but I could swear I 
remember people talking about a GNOME olpcfs-ish file versioning 
system months back, but can't seem to find any references to this 
offhand.
If you happen to stumble over it again, I would be pleased to get a 
pointer to it.


CU Sascha

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal: version support for data store and Journal

[Bobby Powers]

On Thu, 2009-04-16 at 11:57 +0200, Sascha Silbe wrote: 
> On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 01:17:17PM +0200, Martin Langhoff wrote:
> 
> > And... we're moving away from generic-ising Sugar's main contact
> > points. Whatever happened with the idea of riding on gnome's overahaul
> > of the file picker / manager?
> I think we are currently running ahead of Gnome and do the research 
> work. Once we figured out how it works best (which will take at least 
> another major change as legacy app support is out of scope for my GSoC 
> project), we can join forces with them.
> Of course that doesn't prevent us watching them and adopting part of 
> their work if it's already useful to us. We have to care about which 
> platforms / distro releases Sugar runs on as well, though, so using 
> bleeding edge code must be considered carefully.

Indeed, I think the Gnome work referred to is Gnome Zeitgeist [1], and
is scheduled for release as part of 'GNOME 3.0' in a year.  Zeitgeist
seems to be the file manager overhaul, but I could swear I remember
people talking about a GNOME olpcfs-ish file versioning system months
back, but can't seem to find any references to this offhand.

Bobby

1 - http://live.gnome.org/GnomeZeitgeist

> CU Sascha
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal: version support for data store and Journal

[Sascha Silbe]

On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 01:17:17PM +0200, Martin Langhoff wrote:


And... we're moving away from generic-ising Sugar's main contact
points. Whatever happened with the idea of riding on gnome's overahaul
of the file picker / manager?
I think we are currently running ahead of Gnome and do the research 
work. Once we figured out how it works best (which will take at least 
another major change as legacy app support is out of scope for my GSoC 
project), we can join forces with them.
Of course that doesn't prevent us watching them and adopting part of 
their work if it's already useful to us. We have to care about which 
platforms / distro releases Sugar runs on as well, though, so using 
bleeding edge code must be considered carefully.


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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Geza Kovacs]

Hi all, I've noticed that I haven't been invited for the application
interviews. Does this imply that my proposal has been ultimately and
conclusively rejected, or will I still have a chance at participating
in GSoC if I address any remaining issues that were brought up with my
proposal?

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 9:39 PM, Geza Kovacs  wrote:
> On 04/11/2009 07:07 PM, Carol Farlow Lerche wrote:
>>
>> It seems like this conversation is somewhat at cross-purposes.  Martin
>> discusses the general case of multicast from an arbitrary client through
>> an access point serving many clients with a mixture of multicast and
>> unicast traffic.  Well known performance problems result.  However, Geza
>> proposes a special case (perhaps).  In a classroom, it would be nice to
>> be able to have a "projector" to send a stream of video to the stations
>> within that classroom.  Now, not every school could have extra hardware
>> for this purpose, but I think many could, just as our schools of yore
>> had that funky projector that got rolled into the classroom on the
>> morning when our teacher wanted us to see (or sleep through :-) a movie
>> about something or other.
>>
>> What might be interesting is to consider the possibiliity of connecting
>> the projector client via a USB ethernet connector to a separate
>> "multicast" access point, that the receiving clients associated with for
>> the time of the "movie".  This allows the originator of the stream to
>> use a wired connection to the AP, the AP to be chosen and configured to
>> optimize multicasting, and the whole thing to be somewhat isolated from
>> the unicast traffic happening elsewhere.
>>
>
> I don't think requiring an additional access point is the right way to
> accomplish this. As you said, hardware is expensive, so it would be
> unrealistic to install a new access point into every classroom, and if it
> were only available in certain classrooms then we're back to what we have
> right now with projectors - only those classrooms which have them at the
> moment can use them. As for adding the need for a wired connection to the
> AP, as I understand the XS already has one so it might be used as a "relay"
> so that the actual source machine is simply sending the XS the signal over
> unicast and the XS is handling the multicasting. Personally I don't like the
> notion of requiring any wiring because that would limit the locations from
> which video could be broadcast - say you wouldn't be able to project a video
> stream from a lab station unless it was pre-wired before class to do so. I
> think limiting airtime usage on the existing network, by limiting
> framerates, viewers, or similar mechanisms, is the optimal way to solve this
> issue - additional hardware requirements would mean that this couldn't
> immediately be of use in many existing deployments.
>
> Right now I'm thinking that, given that I saw at max one full-motion video
> in class each school year in high school, full-motion video is really a
> limited niche to be addressing. Given that lecture slides are shown in many
> classes via projectors basically every day, then extremely low framerate
> video is really the key to be thinking about here (simply broadcasting the
> lecture slides in PDF format and using libpoppler to render them client-side
> and broadcasting slide transition notices could also work - I actually
> implemented something like this last semester, but then we have the issue
> that most teachers prefer to present slides directly from
> PowerPoint/OpenOffice, and that all kinds of issues might occur if the
> teacher uses specialized fonts or the like).
>
> I don't believe that lecture slides, which could be broadcast at much lower
> framerates (1 fps MJPEG is 100 Kbps per stream) and would thus occupy very
> little bandwidth and airtime, would suffer any of the issues that Martin and
> I have been discussing. I've updated my proposal accordingly to reflect the
> emphasis on broadcasting of lecture slides. Of course this doesn't mean I'm
> not planning to implement the features I originally proposed - this is
> merely a contingency plan so that Sugar Labs is left with a useful product
> nevertheless if technical issues make full-motion video broadcasting
> infeasible.
>
>> Not sure if this is workable, but some reading of the papers about
>> multicast performance issues on the Intertubes suggest it might be
>> promising.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Geza Kovacs > > wrote:
>>
>>    Since you apparently have more experience with multicasting over
>>    wireless I'll assume it's not a realistic option in this context
>>    (though it might nevertheless be an interesting experiment to try if
>>    have spare time over the course of GSoC after finishing a
>>    unicast-based implementation).
>>
>>    Returning to unicasting and simply limiting net bandwidth usage, as I
>>    understand the "slowest client sets the speed" issue with the access
>>    node swit

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Geza Kovacs]

On 04/11/2009 07:07 PM, Carol Farlow Lerche wrote:
> It seems like this conversation is somewhat at cross-purposes.  Martin
> discusses the general case of multicast from an arbitrary client through
> an access point serving many clients with a mixture of multicast and
> unicast traffic.  Well known performance problems result.  However, Geza
> proposes a special case (perhaps).  In a classroom, it would be nice to
> be able to have a "projector" to send a stream of video to the stations
> within that classroom.  Now, not every school could have extra hardware
> for this purpose, but I think many could, just as our schools of yore
> had that funky projector that got rolled into the classroom on the
> morning when our teacher wanted us to see (or sleep through :-) a movie
> about something or other.
>
> What might be interesting is to consider the possibiliity of connecting
> the projector client via a USB ethernet connector to a separate
> "multicast" access point, that the receiving clients associated with for
> the time of the "movie".  This allows the originator of the stream to
> use a wired connection to the AP, the AP to be chosen and configured to
> optimize multicasting, and the whole thing to be somewhat isolated from
> the unicast traffic happening elsewhere.
>

I don't think requiring an additional access point is the right way to 
accomplish this. As you said, hardware is expensive, so it would be 
unrealistic to install a new access point into every classroom, and if 
it were only available in certain classrooms then we're back to what we 
have right now with projectors - only those classrooms which have them 
at the moment can use them. As for adding the need for a wired 
connection to the AP, as I understand the XS already has one so it might 
be used as a "relay" so that the actual source machine is simply sending 
the XS the signal over unicast and the XS is handling the multicasting. 
Personally I don't like the notion of requiring any wiring because that 
would limit the locations from which video could be broadcast - say you 
wouldn't be able to project a video stream from a lab station unless it 
was pre-wired before class to do so. I think limiting airtime usage on 
the existing network, by limiting framerates, viewers, or similar 
mechanisms, is the optimal way to solve this issue - additional hardware 
requirements would mean that this couldn't immediately be of use in many 
existing deployments.

Right now I'm thinking that, given that I saw at max one full-motion 
video in class each school year in high school, full-motion video is 
really a limited niche to be addressing. Given that lecture slides are 
shown in many classes via projectors basically every day, then extremely 
low framerate video is really the key to be thinking about here (simply 
broadcasting the lecture slides in PDF format and using libpoppler to 
render them client-side and broadcasting slide transition notices could 
also work - I actually implemented something like this last semester, 
but then we have the issue that most teachers prefer to present slides 
directly from PowerPoint/OpenOffice, and that all kinds of issues might 
occur if the teacher uses specialized fonts or the like).

I don't believe that lecture slides, which could be broadcast at much 
lower framerates (1 fps MJPEG is 100 Kbps per stream) and would thus 
occupy very little bandwidth and airtime, would suffer any of the issues 
that Martin and I have been discussing. I've updated my proposal 
accordingly to reflect the emphasis on broadcasting of lecture slides. 
Of course this doesn't mean I'm not planning to implement the features I 
originally proposed - this is merely a contingency plan so that Sugar 
Labs is left with a useful product nevertheless if technical issues make 
full-motion video broadcasting infeasible.

> Not sure if this is workable, but some reading of the papers about
> multicast performance issues on the Intertubes suggest it might be
> promising.
>
> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Geza Kovacs  > wrote:
>
> Since you apparently have more experience with multicasting over
> wireless I'll assume it's not a realistic option in this context
> (though it might nevertheless be an interesting experiment to try if
> have spare time over the course of GSoC after finishing a
> unicast-based implementation).
>
> Returning to unicasting and simply limiting net bandwidth usage, as I
> understand the "slowest client sets the speed" issue with the access
> node switching to Mode1 for broadcast applies only to multicasting. If
> I have the XO send the video in a single UDP stream to the central XS
> server (which as I understand has a wired connection to the AP), then
> have those streams be individually relayed by the XS over the AP to
> each designated viewer in over unicast UDP, then as I understand the
> AP will be able to operate near its 56 Mbps net t

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Carol Farlow Lerche]

It seems like this conversation is somewhat at cross-purposes.  Martin
discusses the general case of multicast from an arbitrary client through an
access point serving many clients with a mixture of multicast and unicast
traffic.  Well known performance problems result.  However, Geza proposes a
special case (perhaps).  In a classroom, it would be nice to be able to have
a "projector" to send a stream of video to the stations within that
classroom.  Now, not every school could have extra hardware for this
purpose, but I think many could, just as our schools of yore had that funky
projector that got rolled into the classroom on the morning when our teacher
wanted us to see (or sleep through :-) a movie about something or other.

What might be interesting is to consider the possibiliity of connecting the
projector client via a USB ethernet connector to a separate "multicast"
access point, that the receiving clients associated with for the time of the
"movie".  This allows the originator of the stream to use a wired connection
to the AP, the AP to be chosen and configured to optimize multicasting, and
the whole thing to be somewhat isolated from the unicast traffic happening
elsewhere.

Not sure if this is workable, but some reading of the papers about multicast
performance issues on the Intertubes suggest it might be promising.

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Geza Kovacs  wrote:

> Since you apparently have more experience with multicasting over
> wireless I'll assume it's not a realistic option in this context
> (though it might nevertheless be an interesting experiment to try if
> have spare time over the course of GSoC after finishing a
> unicast-based implementation).
>
> Returning to unicasting and simply limiting net bandwidth usage, as I
> understand the "slowest client sets the speed" issue with the access
> node switching to Mode1 for broadcast applies only to multicasting. If
> I have the XO send the video in a single UDP stream to the central XS
> server (which as I understand has a wired connection to the AP), then
> have those streams be individually relayed by the XS over the AP to
> each designated viewer in over unicast UDP, then as I understand the
> AP will be able to operate near its 56 Mbps net throughput limit,
> which, factoring in the fact that the effective throughput will be
> decreased due to noise and that my application of course can't hog all
> the bandwidth and airtime, means that I will have around 20 Mbps
> available for unicasting to all clients.
>
> Rather than limiting the number of viewers as I originally proposed, I
> believe that automatically limiting the framerate of the broadcast
> based on the number of viewers will be a better way to scale for
> larger numbers of viewers - that is, once the broadcaster gets to the
> "broadcast" stage and selects the intended viewers, then based on the
> available bandwidth and network congestion, then an ideal framerate is
> calculated out and the stream is encoded and broadcast to all of the
> viewers at that framerate. Given that the most interest has been
> expressed over the remote desktop broadcasting feature, and given that
> there's rather little motion overall on a desktop broadcast, the
> desktop activity should still be easily viewed at very low framerates.
> From my personal experience, I don't really miss any features of my
> own typical desktop activity even at around 3-4 fps (except for
> gaming, but presumably this will be used primarily for relatively
> low-motion educational software). At 4 fps, the MJPEG video stream,
> with a 96 Kbps audio stream, comes out at around 0.5 Mbps. Using 20
> Mbps, this stream could be broadcast to 40 users, which I assume is
> around the upper limit of the number of students in the classroom.
> Assuming fewer viewers, then higher framerates could be used. Would
> this be a reasonable approach to limiting airtime usage with unicast
> streams?
>
> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 6:36 AM, Martin Langhoff
>  wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Geza Kovacs  wrote:
> >> According to
> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/wrapper.jsp?arnumber=4292735
> >> then the slowest transmission speed, Mode1 (6 Mbps) is only beneficial
> >> for multicasting over very large distances; in the case of the AWGN
> >
> > I am sure they did their tests in quiet RF environments. In crowded
> > environments nodes can tell the AP that they're having trouble hearing
> > the frames, please transmit slower.
> >
> > You've calculated 1.6Mbps but that's only the stream. You need to get
> > each to the AP, and _then_ it'll be broadcast. The frame to the AP may
> > be transmittedfast if the XO is close to the AP. The datarate for the
> > broadcast frame from the AP to all the nodes is set by the AP based on
> > the nodes it has registered...
> >
> >> In terms of airtime consumption, this of course depends on the
> >> airtime-fairness mechanisms used by the wireless network. However,
> >
> > Which just don't exist (not i

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Geza Kovacs]

Since you apparently have more experience with multicasting over
wireless I'll assume it's not a realistic option in this context
(though it might nevertheless be an interesting experiment to try if
have spare time over the course of GSoC after finishing a
unicast-based implementation).

Returning to unicasting and simply limiting net bandwidth usage, as I
understand the "slowest client sets the speed" issue with the access
node switching to Mode1 for broadcast applies only to multicasting. If
I have the XO send the video in a single UDP stream to the central XS
server (which as I understand has a wired connection to the AP), then
have those streams be individually relayed by the XS over the AP to
each designated viewer in over unicast UDP, then as I understand the
AP will be able to operate near its 56 Mbps net throughput limit,
which, factoring in the fact that the effective throughput will be
decreased due to noise and that my application of course can't hog all
the bandwidth and airtime, means that I will have around 20 Mbps
available for unicasting to all clients.

Rather than limiting the number of viewers as I originally proposed, I
believe that automatically limiting the framerate of the broadcast
based on the number of viewers will be a better way to scale for
larger numbers of viewers - that is, once the broadcaster gets to the
"broadcast" stage and selects the intended viewers, then based on the
available bandwidth and network congestion, then an ideal framerate is
calculated out and the stream is encoded and broadcast to all of the
viewers at that framerate. Given that the most interest has been
expressed over the remote desktop broadcasting feature, and given that
there's rather little motion overall on a desktop broadcast, the
desktop activity should still be easily viewed at very low framerates.
>From my personal experience, I don't really miss any features of my
own typical desktop activity even at around 3-4 fps (except for
gaming, but presumably this will be used primarily for relatively
low-motion educational software). At 4 fps, the MJPEG video stream,
with a 96 Kbps audio stream, comes out at around 0.5 Mbps. Using 20
Mbps, this stream could be broadcast to 40 users, which I assume is
around the upper limit of the number of students in the classroom.
Assuming fewer viewers, then higher framerates could be used. Would
this be a reasonable approach to limiting airtime usage with unicast
streams?

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 6:36 AM, Martin Langhoff
 wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Geza Kovacs  wrote:
>> According to http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/wrapper.jsp?arnumber=4292735
>> then the slowest transmission speed, Mode1 (6 Mbps) is only beneficial
>> for multicasting over very large distances; in the case of the AWGN
>
> I am sure they did their tests in quiet RF environments. In crowded
> environments nodes can tell the AP that they're having trouble hearing
> the frames, please transmit slower.
>
> You've calculated 1.6Mbps but that's only the stream. You need to get
> each to the AP, and _then_ it'll be broadcast. The frame to the AP may
> be transmittedfast if the XO is close to the AP. The datarate for the
> broadcast frame from the AP to all the nodes is set by the AP based on
> the nodes it has registered...
>
>> In terms of airtime consumption, this of course depends on the
>> airtime-fairness mechanisms used by the wireless network. However,
>
> Which just don't exist (not in the QoS sense that you seem to be
> picturing at least), and deal rather badly with dense networks. There
> is a backoff mechanism that avoids collisions (rather than detect
> them) ... in very dense environment this means that the available
> bandwidth is significantly reduced.
>
> The tools that you want to reuse work well in a switched network with
> ample capacity. The workload of video streaming -- however "light" you
> might thing 1.6Mbps is -- in a saturated shared medium with "slowest
> client sets the speed" broadcast and conservative backoff strategies
> is AFAIK an unsolved problem.
>
> There's surely a complex research project there -- can it be made to
> work? What strategies can work on that complex problem? But if you
> start by assuming you can reuse existing high level tools, it'll be a
> disaster. It might work in a test environment. But it will never ever
> work in a real life school.
>
> cheers,
>
>
>
> m
> --
>  martin.langh...@gmail.com
>  mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
>  - ask interesting questions
>  - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
>  - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Martin Langhoff]

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Geza Kovacs  wrote:
> According to http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/wrapper.jsp?arnumber=4292735
> then the slowest transmission speed, Mode1 (6 Mbps) is only beneficial
> for multicasting over very large distances; in the case of the AWGN

I am sure they did their tests in quiet RF environments. In crowded
environments nodes can tell the AP that they're having trouble hearing
the frames, please transmit slower.

You've calculated 1.6Mbps but that's only the stream. You need to get
each to the AP, and _then_ it'll be broadcast. The frame to the AP may
be transmittedfast if the XO is close to the AP. The datarate for the
broadcast frame from the AP to all the nodes is set by the AP based on
the nodes it has registered...

> In terms of airtime consumption, this of course depends on the
> airtime-fairness mechanisms used by the wireless network. However,

Which just don't exist (not in the QoS sense that you seem to be
picturing at least), and deal rather badly with dense networks. There
is a backoff mechanism that avoids collisions (rather than detect
them) ... in very dense environment this means that the available
bandwidth is significantly reduced.

The tools that you want to reuse work well in a switched network with
ample capacity. The workload of video streaming -- however "light" you
might thing 1.6Mbps is -- in a saturated shared medium with "slowest
client sets the speed" broadcast and conservative backoff strategies
is AFAIK an unsolved problem.

There's surely a complex research project there -- can it be made to
work? What strategies can work on that complex problem? But if you
start by assuming you can reuse existing high level tools, it'll be a
disaster. It might work in a test environment. But it will never ever
work in a real life school.

cheers,



m
-- 
 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Geza Kovacs]

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Martin Langhoff
 wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Geza Kovacs  wrote:
>> Assuming I'm using Farsight2 to broadcast MJPEG video over multicast UDP,
>
> As I've posted earlier, for multicast frames you'll see the AP
> switching to the slowest transmission speed to increase the chances
> that all the nodes will get the frame reliably, which hogs airtime.
>

According to http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/wrapper.jsp?arnumber=4292735
then the slowest transmission speed, Mode1 (6 Mbps) is only beneficial
for multicasting over very large distances; in the case of the AWGN
channel as shown in figures 1 and 2 (the Rayleigh fading channel
measurements are irrelevant since the laptops and WAP are presumably
within the line of sight of the broadcaster), then Mode1 is necessary
only at above 120m, which is much larger than the typical classroom.
At 40 meters, a reasonable radius for a classroom, Mode6 (36 Mbit/s)
could be used to achieve 25 Mbit/s throughput. Therefore the access
point need not automatically switch to Mode1 for multicast, assuming
it's possible to override this default behavior.

> And airtime is what really matters in wireless networking.
>
> So, if one session of your proposed application is the *only* thing
> running on the whole network, you can do some rough math. You'll need
> to
>
>  - Send the stream to the AP. If the 'broadcasting' node is close to
> the AP, and sees no interference, it may be able to transmit
> relatively fast (let's assume 36Mbps).
>
>  - Broadcast the framesfrom the AP at 1Mbps.
>
> What's the bits-per-second of your stream? What % of the airtime do
> you thing it will consume?
>

As for the bandwidth required for the video stream, for a 1-minute 15
FPS VGA-resolution MJPEG video stream (presumably this will be roughly
the compression level and bitrate that can be expected to be encoded
live from XOs, since the user might have other applications running)
the filesize turned out to be roughly 12 MB, therefore this video
stream would be 1.6 Mbit/s. Presumably since the main usage of this
would be for mostly static content with little motion, such as a
computer desktop or lecture slides, rather than full-motion video,
then perhaps the framerate could be reduced slightly further if
necessary.

As you mentioned a few mails ago, the broadcaster's proximity and
network link to the access point could also affect the performance of
the network. Since the main bottleneck is at the multicasting stage,
then since the XS would be optimally situated in the classroom and
would likely have a high-quality, perhaps wired, connection to the
access point, then perhaps rather than multicasting directly from the
XO then the XS could be running a multicast-capable streaming server
such as Helix, and it would simply multicast to the rest of the class
the incoming unicast signal that was sent to it from the recording XO
(this would of course require additional bandwidth due to having both
unicast and multicast stages but the multicast-distance optimization
should be able to compensate for this).

In terms of airtime consumption, this of course depends on the
airtime-fairness mechanisms used by the wireless network. However,
given that students' online activities in the classroom occurring
while the teacher is broadcasting a video stream will likely be
unicast, TCP-based standard HTTP traffic for web browsing and the
like, rather than live streams like say VoIP over UDP, then presumably
the multicasting could safely occupy up to a third of the airtime
without degrading the online experience of others. I of course can't
determine the actual airtime usage without implementing this, but I
would assume, based on the relatively low per-stream bandwidth usage,
that it shouldn't occupy any more than a third of the airtime.
Presumably, since this is primarily targeted towards teachers' usage
for presenting to the classroom, then there should only be one video
stream being multicast on a single same network at once.

> This of course assumes 802.11abg. With 802.11s, sending a stream over
> broadcast will mess up the network completely because of the funny
> rebroadcasting rules in the 's' standard.
>

I unfortunately don't know much about 802.11s, but I would assume that
since many (or most) deployments have a standard 802.11g network
on-site and accessible within the desired broadcasting range (the
classroom) then using the mesh network for multicasting wouldn't be
crucial for this to be used in most deployments.

> All OLPC deployments are a very busy wifi environment. If you build
> tools that assume that they are the only thing in the air, or that it
> can take a significant portion of the RF airtime... would be just like
> assuming that your program is the only thing in the hard disk.
>
> cheers,
>
>
>
> m
> --
>  martin.langh...@gmail.com
>  mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
>  - ask interesting questions
>  - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  -

Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Martin Langhoff]

On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Geza Kovacs  wrote:
> Assuming I'm using Farsight2 to broadcast MJPEG video over multicast UDP,

As I've posted earlier, for multicast frames you'll see the AP
switching to the slowest transmission speed to increase the chances
that all the nodes will get the frame reliably, which hogs airtime.

And airtime is what really matters in wireless networking.

So, if one session of your proposed application is the *only* thing
running on the whole network, you can do some rough math. You'll need
to

  - Send the stream to the AP. If the 'broadcasting' node is close to
the AP, and sees no interference, it may be able to transmit
relatively fast (let's assume 36Mbps).

  - Broadcast the framesfrom the AP at 1Mbps.

What's the bits-per-second of your stream? What % of the airtime do
you thing it will consume?

This of course assumes 802.11abg. With 802.11s, sending a stream over
broadcast will mess up the network completely because of the funny
rebroadcasting rules in the 's' standard.

All OLPC deployments are a very busy wifi environment. If you build
tools that assume that they are the only thing in the air, or that it
can take a significant portion of the RF airtime... would be just like
assuming that your program is the only thing in the hard disk.

cheers,



m
-- 
 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Geza Kovacs]

On 04/03/2009 06:09 PM, Martin Langhoff wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz
>> Agreed... which is why the correct solution is to use link-layer
>> broadcast/multicast.  That way, the bandwidth usage is independent of the
>> number of users, and only a single stream must be transmitted.  Farsight2
>> already supports link-layer multicast UDP.  I don't think Icecast does.
>
> Proposing broadcast/multicast over wireless is not _so_ obvious. It
> causes non-trivial problems on both the 802.11abg protocol family and
> 802.11s.
>

Assuming I'm using Farsight2 to broadcast MJPEG video over multicast 
UDP, to my understanding the primary issue with multicast over wireless 
is unreliable data transmission, which when compounded with the 3-5% 
packet loss rate, "bursty" packet loss, and lack of acks or error 
checking in UDP will mean that a few frames will be occasionally be lost 
or corrupted, leading to temporary but very short freezes in the video 
stream. However I don't think this unreliable data transmission is 
really much of an issue, at least with MJPEG, since the loss of video 
data over a short time interval will lead only to the loss of frames 
corresponding to that particular interval since it doesn't use 
predictive encoding or b-frames; therefore the effect of a burst of lost 
packets will still only lead to a second or so pause in the video stream.

Other than this issue, are there any other non-trivial problems that you 
were thinking of that I have missed?

> So there is a lot of work to be done in figuring out how to use
> broadcast frames over either type of wireless efficiently.
>
>   cheers,
>
>
> martin

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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal: Speech Synthesis

[Carol Farlow Lerche]

I like the idea.  I would suggest that for (2), when the word is pronounced
it should be sounded out first using the grapheme-phoneme correspondences
for the language.  Preferably highlight the graphemes as they are spoken.
Thus "bb ah ll - ball", in turn highlighting b, a, ll.  This helps the child
improve their decoding skills.  C.f.
http://synphony.wiki.sourceforge.net/

On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 10:10 AM, chirag jain wrote:

> Keyboard Speaker
>
> As I proposed in my proposal about the keyboard speaker, I want to
> make it more elaborate and wants you to comment.
>
> I am thinking it to implement in two ways
>
> 1.  A single key speaker.
>
> In this option, the keyboard speaker will simply speak the keys as a
> small child presses them. This functionality can help him learn the
> alphabets and also the name of some speacial characters. Like on
> pressing the * key the speaker speeks asterisk, on pressing the # key
> it will speak the hash word and so on.
>
> 2. A single word speaker
>
> Now this functionality can be implemented with write activity. This
> can be achieved with the help of a pykeylogger which will run in the
> background. Now as the user types words in the write activity, the
> pykeylogger will store all the characters typed. As the user presses
> the space, all the words which are actually forming the word typed by
> the user, and which are stored by the pykeylogger will be sent to the
> TTS engine. So in this manner as the user types one word the speaker
> will speak the entire word typed.
> This feature will be helpful to the children in knowing the exact
> pronunciation of the word they are typing. Also they can easily
> memorize the word and at the same time can learn those newly typed
> words.
> These two options can be provided with the GUI for the speech
> configuration which I have already proposed in my application.
> I want comments on this idea.
>
> Regards
> Chirag
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Martin Langhoff]

On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 8:48 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz
 wrote:
> I'm not aware of any problems using UDP broadcast on 802.11abg.  Could you
> elaborate?

Broadcast frames will be sent at the lowest speed -- IIRC, ot should
be the lowest common speed supported by all associated nodes, but the
experimental outcomes lead to suspicion that many APs just go straight
for the lowest. That's 1Mbps. And it takes over all the "air time"
too, starving all other users.

So there is room for very interesting work in finding viable ways to
broadcast and unicast screencasts, but it will necessarily be a lot of
heavy lifting looking at the 802.11abg (and maybe even s) layer in
making broadcast work for many users in dense environments.

btw: sugar-dev back on the cc list -

cheers,



martin
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 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Martin Langhoff]

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz
> Agreed... which is why the correct solution is to use link-layer
> broadcast/multicast.  That way, the bandwidth usage is independent of the
> number of users, and only a single stream must be transmitted.  Farsight2
> already supports link-layer multicast UDP.  I don't think Icecast does.

Proposing broadcast/multicast over wireless is not _so_ obvious. It
causes non-trivial problems on both the 802.11abg protocol family and
802.11s.

So there is a lot of work to be done in figuring out how to use
broadcast frames over either type of wireless efficiently.

 cheers,


martin
-- 
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 - ask interesting questions
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Benjamin M. Schwartz]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Geza Kovacs wrote:
> Actually, during the fall semester I had access to a few XOs from the
> Media Lab, and happened to try this very thing out (use gstreamer to
> capture video from webcam and stream it live to an icecast server). With
> VGA resolution with Theora, I was indeed getting horrible framerates,
> roughly 0.5 frames per second. At QVGA, framerates improved
> considerably, going around 10 frames per second; however I suppose QVGA
> is too low-resolution to be acceptable. I had slightly better
> performance with some older codecs, I believe either MPEG-1 or MJPEG,
> with VGA streaming at roughly 3 fps. I didn't try out H.261 or H.263,
> but I believe those should also be much less expensive than Theora to
> encode and decode, as they're used quite extensively in embedded
> devices. 

They're used quite extensively in embedded devices because those devices
have special purpose hardware to enc/dec these codecs.  That doesn't help
us here.

> In this case, since all traffic is going through the local
> wireless network, bandwidth isn't the primary bottleneck, but instead
> encoding and decoding video is, therefore using a less cpu-intensive
> codec is likely to be advantageous; I believe that if I use the
> appropriate encoding options and codec combinations to make compression
> as fast as possible then I should be able to stream VGA video at
> acceptable frame rates.

Perhaps it might be possible using MJPEG... but VNC is substantially more
efficient than MJPEG in both CPU and bandwidth.

> Since VNC itself, unlike X11, uses a
> raster-based format, I don't believe it's going to be any more efficient
> CPU-wise than a very primitive video codec like MJPEG or MPEG-1 at
> fastest compression settings in any context, so I don't believe I should
> even bother with VNC.

I strongly feel that you are wrong here.  VNC is actually quite
sophisticated.  No less than Adam Jackson, the Red Hat X maintainer, told
me that VNC's network protocol is substantially more efficient than the
X11 protocol, and my experience agrees.

For example,

x11vnc -shared -viewonly -xdamage -scale 1/2 -scrollcopyrect -cursorshape
- -cursorpos -ncache 2

Will: create a VNC session with an unlimited number of read-only
participants; use XDAMAGE to receive notifications when screen regions
change, so that only changes need to be read out, encoded, and
transmitted; scale the screen down by a factor of 2 (to VGA on an XO); use
CopyRect commands to avoid resending the entire area when windows are
scrolled; transmit the cursor shape and position out-of-band, so that
almost no data must be sent when the cursor moves; and tell the client to
allocate two screens-worth of offscreen cache, so that if the session
switches between two windows, they can both be cached locally, instead of
constantly being sent over the network.

VNC also uses JPEG compression by default.  It's like MJPEG, but with a
huge number of optimizations specific to the problem of transmitting the
contents of a screen.

For more info, check out
http://www.karlrunge.com/x11vnc/faq.html#faq-slow-link

The biggest difficulty with using VNC here is that you really want
link-local multicast.  The closest thing I've found to a Multicast VNC is
http://teleteaching.uni-trier.de/ttt.en.html ... which actually sounds
like it might be a great place for you to start.

- --Ben
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Benjamin M. Schwartz]

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Martin Langhoff wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Geza Kovacs  wrote:
>> the local Icecast streaming server over HTTP. Surely you must agree that
>> that is possible?
> 
> And very *quickly* saturate the available bandwidth :-/

Agreed... which is why the correct solution is to use link-layer
broadcast/multicast.  That way, the bandwidth usage is independent of the
number of users, and only a single stream must be transmitted.  Farsight2
already supports link-layer multicast UDP.  I don't think Icecast does.

- --Ben
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC proposal: version support for data store and Journal

[Eben Eliason]

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 7:49 AM, Sascha Silbe
 wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 05:36:41PM -0400, Eben Eliason wrote:
>
>> In all of our preliminary designs, we actually proposed that branches
>> be flattened from the perspective of the user. That is, the most
>> recent head of any branch in a tree is the "canonical version" which
>> appears as the most recent entry in the Journal.
>
> So you intended to display one version per branch, with intermediate
> versions available from a details view?

No, actually, the opposite. Basically, all versions of a document
would appear within the list view timeline. Their order within the
list would be determined by their timestamp. If I work on 3 iterative
versions of a document, then go back to the second version and make
changes, I get a new 4th version which appears as the most recent item
in the Journal. It doesn't matter (at least here) that I technically
have a branch at version 2, which has children 3 and 4. What matters
in the Journal perspective is that I worked on version 4 most
recently. The tree is flattened into a list in the time dimension.

This is also the reason that the latest Journal designs split the UI
into "action" and "object" views. The action view would be a temporal
history of everything you've done (with each version through time).
The object view would represent each object only once, by it's most
recent version, thus providing a much shorter list.

>> If you look at the designs on the wiki, you'll actually note that the
>> date in the detail view is a popup.
>
> Now you point it out I see it. :)
> Interesting idea.
>
>> Additionally, each version would appear in the list/timeline view of the
>> Journal, so that you could just as easily scroll "back in time" to several
>> days ago when you made the first version of a document, and resume that
>> directly from there.
>
> Hmm, I'm not sure I understand how this fits with what's said above... Is
> the above for the non-timeline view or do you intend to "split" the list and
> show only the latest version of each branch _per_ _buffer_ (buffer def. as
> in #8)?

Hopefully the above clarified my thoughts in this area.

> [Version tree view]
>>
>> I'd probably recommend against this, both because I think there's far
>> more work to be done to get this working smoothly than you might
>> think, and because I don't think it's actually an important feature
>> for kids.
>
> To me, it's a very useful feature for debugging and should definitely be
> there. Whether somewhere deep in the Journal or in a separate "Datastore
> Explorer" activity is a separate matter, though.

There has been much arguing over where this lived, or if we should
have it. The argument was last settled by stating that it should be
possible to add, but that it's certainly not required for useful
version support which is, more than anything, needed to prevent loss
of data. A flattened list of versions gives us that in the Journal
paradigm without the need for understanding trees.

If it is to be added, I could potentially see it appearing in details,
or perhaps when expanding items in the object view of the Journal to
show their histories.

Eben

> CU Sascha
>
> --
> http://sascha.silbe.org/
> http://www.infra-silbe.de/
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Martin Langhoff]

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 3:37 PM, David Farning  wrote:
> Maybe with a little thinking up front it would be easier to see how

All of that has nothing to do with me, David.

And I am an experienced gsoc mentor. And that bit... includes
sometimes saying: sorry, but there is a big black hole in the middle
of your proposal.

Which is what I just did.

And in this case it was fairly serious -- Geza may be able to work on
it, hopefully.


m
-- 
 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[David Farning]

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 8:22 AM, Martin Langhoff
 wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 3:10 PM, David Farning  wrote:
>> Then don't be!  OLPC has spent years arguing about how various
>> solution will _not_ work.  How about giving the students a chance to
>> test their theories and develop an implementation.
>
> David -- the proposal did _not_ have a theory of how it would work. It
> did not acknowledge scarcity of bandwidth as a problem.
>
> Now Geza is starting to suggest mechanisms to limit the number of
> users. That is a lot more reasonable. A bit of analysis of the actual
> bw required per-stream, and how that would work in a wireless env
> would show some very surprising things [*] that IMO change the model
> completely.
>
> But the bubble needed bursting. We don't have infinite memory, cpu, or
> storage. And damn we have limited spectrum!
>
> * - for example. How does the bw consumption of streaming look if you
> are using infra mode (with a conventional AP) and the stream server is
> on an XO? What would be the impact of running a reflector on a machine
> that has a wired connection to the AP (ie: the XS)? What would the
> impact be of running the stream from a wired connection to the AP
> directly?
>
>> implementation don't work, they have still learned and Sugar Labs (and
>> OLPC) has still made progress.
>
> I think a bit more serious thinking up front that leads to success...
> hey, I'm so old fashioned man. I like to succeed, and I like GSoC
> students to succeed :-)

Maybe with a little thinking up front it would be easier to see how
community building works and why OLPC does not have any GSOC students
this year.

Speaking or success should we compare the relative growth rates OLPC
vs SL community building.

david

>
> m
> --
>  martin.langh...@gmail.com
>  mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
>  - ask interesting questions
>  - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
>  - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] GSoC Proposal: Multimedia Broadcasting

[Martin Langhoff]

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 3:10 PM, David Farning  wrote:
> Then don't be!  OLPC has spent years arguing about how various
> solution will _not_ work.  How about giving the students a chance to
> test their theories and develop an implementation.

David -- the proposal did _not_ have a theory of how it would work. It
did not acknowledge scarcity of bandwidth as a problem.

Now Geza is starting to suggest mechanisms to limit the number of
users. That is a lot more reasonable. A bit of analysis of the actual
bw required per-stream, and how that would work in a wireless env
would show some very surprising things [*] that IMO change the model
completely.

But the bubble needed bursting. We don't have infinite memory, cpu, or
storage. And damn we have limited spectrum!

* - for example. How does the bw consumption of streaming look if you
are using infra mode (with a conventional AP) and the stream server is
on an XO? What would be the impact of running a reflector on a machine
that has a wired connection to the AP (ie: the XS)? What would the
impact be of running the stream from a wired connection to the AP
directly?

> implementation don't work, they have still learned and Sugar Labs (and
> OLPC) has still made progress.

I think a bit more serious thinking up front that leads to success...
hey, I'm so old fashioned man. I like to succeed, and I like GSoC
students to succeed :-)



m
-- 
 martin.langh...@gmail.com
 mar...@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff  - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
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