Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[D. Joe]

On Thu, Mar 05, 2020 at 02:51:09AM +0530, Sumit Srivastava wrote:

> About three years down the line, here's what I learnt:
> 
> 1. Installed two IRC clients for mobile access: Riot.im and IRCCloud

Just a point of clarification: Riot.im is a matrix client, not an IRC client. 

The team leading matrix development and the freenode network hosting #sugar 
cooperate to provide and manage a bridge between the two systems. Riot taps 
into the matrix side of that bridge.

IRCCloud can be considered an IRC client, I guess, but it's also more than 
that: It's a service with multiple tiers, including free-of-charge and 
fee-for-service, to provide yet another app and web front end for those who 
want such things. Some people seem to like it.





 
___
Sugar-devel mailing list
Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel

Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[James Cameron]

Yes.  Please use webchat.freenode.net as it is better maintained.  I'd
be fine with changing any links.

On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 07:57:00PM +, Bottersnike wrote:
> With regards to [1]chat.sugarlabs.org, the version of qwebirc it runs is 10
> years out of date, and it has an SSL certificate that expired 4 years ago. I
> really don't think there's any reason it should ever be recommended to new
> users (over just using freenode) unless it receives a serious update.
> 
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:46 PM Bottersnike <[2]bottersnike...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I think one of the main issues with IRC is the onboarding experience, or
> rather lack thereof. For new users, they're faced with an entirely blank
> screen, with no trivial way to search for past questions, see if a topic
> has been brought up before, or even just read through history to get a
> general idea of the way the organization operates. Sure, there may be
> archives maintained, but for someone who has just discovered SugarLabs and
> wants to contribute, that really isn't going to be a viable solution,
> because it takes significant effort to hunt them down and search through
> them. For established teams, this isn't much of an issue, but it can make
> SugarLabs an incredibly daunting organization for young students from, say
> GCI, or people looking around at different organizations for GSoC.
> 
> > I use Quassel, as it keeps backlog.
> 
> Most clients keep a backlog, but only if your computer is on. That's not
> the situation 24/7 for a lot of people.
> 
> (Sorry for the double message, James. I accidentally used Reply not Reply
> All)
> 
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:15 PM James Cameron <[3]qu...@laptop.org> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for asking.
> 
> For real-time presence messaging, please use IRC channel #sugar on
> [4]freenode.net.  Your choice of client.  I use Quassel, as it keeps
> backlog.
> 
> For store and forward messaging, please use the mailing list.  Your
> choice of client.
> 
> You'll get a voice on choice of tools once you've been working with us
> for a few months.  Until then we can't trust that you've assessed the
> situation accurately.
> 
> Gitter.im was yet another attempt to split our community into the
> haves and the have-nots.  I'm almost ready to ditch my account there
> because it has way less benefit than the cost.  Of receiving a mail
> notification, logging in, and answering the same old questions.  It is
> quite boring.  You can see that if you look through the previous
> discussion, which you'll find was entirely sporadic; someone
> has a question, I answer, nothing else happens.  It could have been
> done in mail.  It costs so much memory and screen real-estate that I
> can't see myself staying connected.  I certainly don't want it
> promoted for Sugar Labs, but I'm willing to keep it available in case
> it turns out to be useful for working with anyone who can't figure out
> how to use IRC.  We must allow for the possibility that someone with a
> disability has been given access to Gitter.im but not to IRC.  So a
> matter of inclusiveness, but not emphasis.
> 
> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 08:03:31PM +0530, Prashant Sengar wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I
> wanted to ask
> > if Sugar could create a communication channel on another platform
> such as a
> > discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to make
> communication easier.
> >
> > The reason why others will be a better option:
> > 1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while,
> unlike IRC
> > where I cannot see any earlier data.
> > 2. IRC cannot be used on mobile devices, so it creates a barrier in
> > communication. On the other hand, the other chat applications are
> available on
> > all platforms for everyone to use.
> >
> > I would like to request the team to please consider this request. If
> such
> > request has been made earlier and denied due to some reasons, then I
> would like
> > to know them so that I can understand the reasons and work
> accordingly.
> >
> > Regards.
> > Prashant Sengar
> 
> > ___
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > [5]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [6]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> 
> --
> James Cameron
> [7]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> ___
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> [8]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org

Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[James Cameron]

On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 08:02:42PM +, Bottersnike wrote:
> >Quassel core is a server that keeps the backlog.  I don't need my
> >computer on, and I can view the backlog from any device.
> 
> Without being rude, most people don't have a spare server lying
> around they can spin up an IRC backlog on, especially not people
> interested in reading backlogged messages from before they joined
> the IRC for the first time.

We have an instance of Quassel core on sunjammer.sugarlabs.org, but I
don't know who administers it.

Otherwise, there are other people who run an instance, or you can spin
up a VM in the cloud, which most people seem to do these days with
such a wide variety of software available.

> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:59 PM James Cameron <[1]qu...@laptop.org> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts.
> 
> Quassel core is a server that keeps the backlog.  I don't need my
> computer on, and I can view the backlog from any device.
> 
> Yes, there are better onboarding experiences.
> 
> However, if people want to talk with us, they'll know where to find
> us.  We're here to get the job done, not provide better experiences
> for developers.
> 
> We do still get students who can use IRC, so I know it is not a
> significant hindrance.
> 
> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 07:46:10PM +, Bottersnike wrote:
> > I think one of the main issues with IRC is the onboarding experience, or
> rather
> > lack thereof. For new users, they're faced with an entirely blank 
> screen,
> with
> > no trivial way to search for past questions, see if a topic has been
> brought up
> > before, or even just read through history to get a general idea of the
> way the
> > organization operates. Sure, there may be archives maintained, but for
> someone
> > who has just discovered SugarLabs and wants to contribute, that really
> isn't
> > going to be a viable solution, because it takes significant effort to
> hunt them
> > down and search through them. For established teams, this isn't much of
> an
> > issue, but it can make SugarLabs an incredibly daunting organization for
> young
> > students from, say GCI, or people looking around at different
> organizations for
> > GSoC.
> >
> > > I use Quassel, as it keeps backlog.
> >
> > Most clients keep a backlog, but only if your computer is on. That's not
> the
> > situation 24/7 for a lot of people.
> >
> > (Sorry for the double message, James. I accidentally used Reply not 
> Reply
> All)
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:15 PM James Cameron <[1][2]qu...@laptop.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >     Thanks for asking.
> >
> >     For real-time presence messaging, please use IRC channel #sugar on
> >     [2][3]freenode.net.  Your choice of client.  I use Quassel, as it
> keeps
> >     backlog.
> >
> >     For store and forward messaging, please use the mailing list.  Your
> >     choice of client.
> >
> >     You'll get a voice on choice of tools once you've been working with
> us
> >     for a few months.  Until then we can't trust that you've assessed 
> the
> >     situation accurately.
> >
> >     Gitter.im was yet another attempt to split our community into the
> >     haves and the have-nots.  I'm almost ready to ditch my account there
> >     because it has way less benefit than the cost.  Of receiving a mail
> >     notification, logging in, and answering the same old questions.  It
> is
> >     quite boring.  You can see that if you look through the previous
> >     discussion, which you'll find was entirely sporadic; someone
> >     has a question, I answer, nothing else happens.  It could have been
> >     done in mail.  It costs so much memory and screen real-estate that I
> >     can't see myself staying connected.  I certainly don't want it
> >     promoted for Sugar Labs, but I'm willing to keep it available in 
> case
> >     it turns out to be useful for working with anyone who can't figure
> out
> >     how to use IRC.  We must allow for the possibility that someone with
> a
> >     disability has been given access to Gitter.im but not to IRC.  So a
> >     matter of inclusiveness, but not emphasis.
> >
> >     On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 08:03:31PM +0530, Prashant Sengar wrote:
> >     > Hi,
> >     >
> >     > I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I
> wanted to
> >     ask
> >     > if Sugar could create a communication channel on another platform
> such as
> >     a
> >     > discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to make
> communication
> >     easier.
> >     >
> >     > The reason why others will be a better option:
> >     > 1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while,
>   

Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[Sumit Srivastava]

Hi,

It was me, back in 2018, started the conversation of switching to Gitter. [
http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2018-February/055061.html]

Back then, I was as new to the community as Bottersnike, Prashant, and
Srevin are now.

I had just come from SymPy organisation that used Gitter as their primary
communication channel.

A huge round of appreciation to James for being on Gitter answering all the
incoming questions.

About three years down the line, here's what I learnt:

1. Installed two IRC clients for mobile access: Riot.im and IRCCloud

2. IRC is still a pain to use, and I still prefer (enjoy) answering
questions over the mailing list.

3. It's hard to switch a community to a communication tool 2, unless you
totally ban the original communication tool 1 and end supporting the
original communication tool. Infact, it becomes worse when you have limited
resources and people (something I wasn't aware of when I joined the
community) because the James now has to spend his headspace for answering
questions on IRC, Gitter, mailing list, and has to spend time maintaining
the codebase. Headspace is valuable and limited.

Now that I've made you aware of the actual constraints of the problem, I
think you may want to spend more of your time this GSoC on Gitter answering
questions of the newcomers. :)

I would love to hear new viewpoints from other community members.

PS: Thanks to everyone who answers questions from people new to SugarLabs.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 1:33 AM Bottersnike  wrote:

> >Quassel core is a server that keeps the backlog.  I don't need my
> >computer on, and I can view the backlog from any device.
>
> Without being rude, most people don't have a spare server lying around
> they can spin up an IRC backlog on, especially not people interested in
> reading backlogged messages from *before* they joined the IRC for the
> first time.
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:59 PM James Cameron  wrote:
>
>> Thanks for your thoughts.
>>
>> Quassel core is a server that keeps the backlog.  I don't need my
>> computer on, and I can view the backlog from any device.
>>
>> Yes, there are better onboarding experiences.
>>
>> However, if people want to talk with us, they'll know where to find
>> us.  We're here to get the job done, not provide better experiences
>> for developers.
>>
>> We do still get students who can use IRC, so I know it is not a
>> significant hindrance.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 07:46:10PM +, Bottersnike wrote:
>> > I think one of the main issues with IRC is the onboarding experience,
>> or rather
>> > lack thereof. For new users, they're faced with an entirely blank
>> screen, with
>> > no trivial way to search for past questions, see if a topic has been
>> brought up
>> > before, or even just read through history to get a general idea of the
>> way the
>> > organization operates. Sure, there may be archives maintained, but for
>> someone
>> > who has just discovered SugarLabs and wants to contribute, that really
>> isn't
>> > going to be a viable solution, because it takes significant effort to
>> hunt them
>> > down and search through them. For established teams, this isn't much of
>> an
>> > issue, but it can make SugarLabs an incredibly daunting organization
>> for young
>> > students from, say GCI, or people looking around at different
>> organizations for
>> > GSoC.
>> >
>> > > I use Quassel, as it keeps backlog.
>> >
>> > Most clients keep a backlog, but only if your computer is on. That's
>> not the
>> > situation 24/7 for a lot of people.
>> >
>> > (Sorry for the double message, James. I accidentally used Reply not
>> Reply All)
>> >
>> > On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:15 PM James Cameron <[1]qu...@laptop.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Thanks for asking.
>> >
>> > For real-time presence messaging, please use IRC channel #sugar on
>> > [2]freenode.net.  Your choice of client.  I use Quassel, as it
>> keeps
>> > backlog.
>> >
>> > For store and forward messaging, please use the mailing list.  Your
>> > choice of client.
>> >
>> > You'll get a voice on choice of tools once you've been working with
>> us
>> > for a few months.  Until then we can't trust that you've assessed
>> the
>> > situation accurately.
>> >
>> > Gitter.im was yet another attempt to split our community into the
>> > haves and the have-nots.  I'm almost ready to ditch my account there
>> > because it has way less benefit than the cost.  Of receiving a mail
>> > notification, logging in, and answering the same old questions.  It
>> is
>> > quite boring.  You can see that if you look through the previous
>> > discussion, which you'll find was entirely sporadic; someone
>> > has a question, I answer, nothing else happens.  It could have been
>> > done in mail.  It costs so much memory and screen real-estate that I
>> > can't see myself staying connected.  I certainly don't want it
>> > promoted for Sugar Labs, but I'm willing to keep it 

Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[Bottersnike]

>Quassel core is a server that keeps the backlog.  I don't need my
>computer on, and I can view the backlog from any device.

Without being rude, most people don't have a spare server lying around they
can spin up an IRC backlog on, especially not people interested in reading
backlogged messages from *before* they joined the IRC for the first time.

On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:59 PM James Cameron  wrote:

> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Quassel core is a server that keeps the backlog.  I don't need my
> computer on, and I can view the backlog from any device.
>
> Yes, there are better onboarding experiences.
>
> However, if people want to talk with us, they'll know where to find
> us.  We're here to get the job done, not provide better experiences
> for developers.
>
> We do still get students who can use IRC, so I know it is not a
> significant hindrance.
>
> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 07:46:10PM +, Bottersnike wrote:
> > I think one of the main issues with IRC is the onboarding experience, or
> rather
> > lack thereof. For new users, they're faced with an entirely blank
> screen, with
> > no trivial way to search for past questions, see if a topic has been
> brought up
> > before, or even just read through history to get a general idea of the
> way the
> > organization operates. Sure, there may be archives maintained, but for
> someone
> > who has just discovered SugarLabs and wants to contribute, that really
> isn't
> > going to be a viable solution, because it takes significant effort to
> hunt them
> > down and search through them. For established teams, this isn't much of
> an
> > issue, but it can make SugarLabs an incredibly daunting organization for
> young
> > students from, say GCI, or people looking around at different
> organizations for
> > GSoC.
> >
> > > I use Quassel, as it keeps backlog.
> >
> > Most clients keep a backlog, but only if your computer is on. That's not
> the
> > situation 24/7 for a lot of people.
> >
> > (Sorry for the double message, James. I accidentally used Reply not
> Reply All)
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:15 PM James Cameron <[1]qu...@laptop.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for asking.
> >
> > For real-time presence messaging, please use IRC channel #sugar on
> > [2]freenode.net.  Your choice of client.  I use Quassel, as it keeps
> > backlog.
> >
> > For store and forward messaging, please use the mailing list.  Your
> > choice of client.
> >
> > You'll get a voice on choice of tools once you've been working with
> us
> > for a few months.  Until then we can't trust that you've assessed the
> > situation accurately.
> >
> > Gitter.im was yet another attempt to split our community into the
> > haves and the have-nots.  I'm almost ready to ditch my account there
> > because it has way less benefit than the cost.  Of receiving a mail
> > notification, logging in, and answering the same old questions.  It
> is
> > quite boring.  You can see that if you look through the previous
> > discussion, which you'll find was entirely sporadic; someone
> > has a question, I answer, nothing else happens.  It could have been
> > done in mail.  It costs so much memory and screen real-estate that I
> > can't see myself staying connected.  I certainly don't want it
> > promoted for Sugar Labs, but I'm willing to keep it available in case
> > it turns out to be useful for working with anyone who can't figure
> out
> > how to use IRC.  We must allow for the possibility that someone with
> a
> > disability has been given access to Gitter.im but not to IRC.  So a
> > matter of inclusiveness, but not emphasis.
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 08:03:31PM +0530, Prashant Sengar wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I
> wanted to
> > ask
> > > if Sugar could create a communication channel on another platform
> such as
> > a
> > > discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to make
> communication
> > easier.
> > >
> > > The reason why others will be a better option:
> > > 1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while,
> unlike
> > IRC
> > > where I cannot see any earlier data.
> > > 2. IRC cannot be used on mobile devices, so it creates a barrier in
> > > communication. On the other hand, the other chat applications are
> > available on
> > > all platforms for everyone to use.
> > >
> > > I would like to request the team to please consider this request.
> If such
> > > request has been made earlier and denied due to some reasons, then
> I
> > would like
> > > to know them so that I can understand the reasons and work
> accordingly.
> > >
> > > Regards.
> > > Prashant Sengar
> >
> > > ___
> > > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > > [3]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > > 

Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[James Cameron]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Quassel core is a server that keeps the backlog.  I don't need my
computer on, and I can view the backlog from any device.

Yes, there are better onboarding experiences.

However, if people want to talk with us, they'll know where to find
us.  We're here to get the job done, not provide better experiences
for developers.

We do still get students who can use IRC, so I know it is not a
significant hindrance.

On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 07:46:10PM +, Bottersnike wrote:
> I think one of the main issues with IRC is the onboarding experience, or 
> rather
> lack thereof. For new users, they're faced with an entirely blank screen, with
> no trivial way to search for past questions, see if a topic has been brought 
> up
> before, or even just read through history to get a general idea of the way the
> organization operates. Sure, there may be archives maintained, but for someone
> who has just discovered SugarLabs and wants to contribute, that really isn't
> going to be a viable solution, because it takes significant effort to hunt 
> them
> down and search through them. For established teams, this isn't much of an
> issue, but it can make SugarLabs an incredibly daunting organization for young
> students from, say GCI, or people looking around at different organizations 
> for
> GSoC.
> 
> > I use Quassel, as it keeps backlog.
> 
> Most clients keep a backlog, but only if your computer is on. That's not the
> situation 24/7 for a lot of people.
> 
> (Sorry for the double message, James. I accidentally used Reply not Reply All)
> 
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:15 PM James Cameron <[1]qu...@laptop.org> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for asking.
> 
> For real-time presence messaging, please use IRC channel #sugar on
> [2]freenode.net.  Your choice of client.  I use Quassel, as it keeps
> backlog.
> 
> For store and forward messaging, please use the mailing list.  Your
> choice of client.
> 
> You'll get a voice on choice of tools once you've been working with us
> for a few months.  Until then we can't trust that you've assessed the
> situation accurately.
> 
> Gitter.im was yet another attempt to split our community into the
> haves and the have-nots.  I'm almost ready to ditch my account there
> because it has way less benefit than the cost.  Of receiving a mail
> notification, logging in, and answering the same old questions.  It is
> quite boring.  You can see that if you look through the previous
> discussion, which you'll find was entirely sporadic; someone
> has a question, I answer, nothing else happens.  It could have been
> done in mail.  It costs so much memory and screen real-estate that I
> can't see myself staying connected.  I certainly don't want it
> promoted for Sugar Labs, but I'm willing to keep it available in case
> it turns out to be useful for working with anyone who can't figure out
> how to use IRC.  We must allow for the possibility that someone with a
> disability has been given access to Gitter.im but not to IRC.  So a
> matter of inclusiveness, but not emphasis.
> 
> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 08:03:31PM +0530, Prashant Sengar wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I wanted 
> to
> ask
> > if Sugar could create a communication channel on another platform such 
> as
> a
> > discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to make communication
> easier.
> >
> > The reason why others will be a better option:
> > 1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while, unlike
> IRC
> > where I cannot see any earlier data.
> > 2. IRC cannot be used on mobile devices, so it creates a barrier in
> > communication. On the other hand, the other chat applications are
> available on
> > all platforms for everyone to use.
> >
> > I would like to request the team to please consider this request. If 
> such
> > request has been made earlier and denied due to some reasons, then I
> would like
> > to know them so that I can understand the reasons and work accordingly.
> >
> > Regards.
> > Prashant Sengar
> 
> > ___
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > [3]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > [4]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> 
> --
> James Cameron
> [5]http://quozl.netrek.org/
> ___
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> [6]Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [7]http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> 
> References:
> 
> [1] mailto:qu...@laptop.org
> [2] http://freenode.net/
> [3] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [4] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> [5] http://quozl.netrek.org/
> [6] mailto:Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> [7] http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel

-- 

Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[Bottersnike]

With regards to chat.sugarlabs.org, the version of qwebirc it runs is 10
years out of date, and it has an SSL certificate that expired 4 years ago.
I really don't think there's any reason it should ever be recommended to
new users (over just using freenode) unless it receives a serious update.

On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:46 PM Bottersnike  wrote:

> I think one of the main issues with IRC is the onboarding experience, or
> rather lack thereof. For new users, they're faced with an entirely blank
> screen, with no trivial way to search for past questions, see if a topic
> has been brought up before, or even just read through history to get a
> general idea of the way the organization operates. Sure, there may be
> archives maintained, but for someone who has just discovered SugarLabs and
> wants to contribute, that really isn't going to be a viable solution,
> because it takes significant effort to hunt them down and search through
> them. For established teams, this isn't much of an issue, but it can make
> SugarLabs an incredibly daunting organization for young students from, say
> GCI, or people looking around at different organizations for GSoC.
>
> > I use Quassel, as it keeps backlog.
>
> Most clients keep a backlog, but only if your computer is on. That's not
> the situation 24/7 for a lot of people.
>
> (Sorry for the double message, James. I accidentally used Reply not Reply
> All)
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:15 PM James Cameron  wrote:
>
>> Thanks for asking.
>>
>> For real-time presence messaging, please use IRC channel #sugar on
>> freenode.net.  Your choice of client.  I use Quassel, as it keeps
>> backlog.
>>
>> For store and forward messaging, please use the mailing list.  Your
>> choice of client.
>>
>> You'll get a voice on choice of tools once you've been working with us
>> for a few months.  Until then we can't trust that you've assessed the
>> situation accurately.
>>
>> Gitter.im was yet another attempt to split our community into the
>> haves and the have-nots.  I'm almost ready to ditch my account there
>> because it has way less benefit than the cost.  Of receiving a mail
>> notification, logging in, and answering the same old questions.  It is
>> quite boring.  You can see that if you look through the previous
>> discussion, which you'll find was entirely sporadic; someone
>> has a question, I answer, nothing else happens.  It could have been
>> done in mail.  It costs so much memory and screen real-estate that I
>> can't see myself staying connected.  I certainly don't want it
>> promoted for Sugar Labs, but I'm willing to keep it available in case
>> it turns out to be useful for working with anyone who can't figure out
>> how to use IRC.  We must allow for the possibility that someone with a
>> disability has been given access to Gitter.im but not to IRC.  So a
>> matter of inclusiveness, but not emphasis.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 08:03:31PM +0530, Prashant Sengar wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I wanted
>> to ask
>> > if Sugar could create a communication channel on another platform such
>> as a
>> > discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to make communication
>> easier.
>> >
>> > The reason why others will be a better option:
>> > 1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while,
>> unlike IRC
>> > where I cannot see any earlier data.
>> > 2. IRC cannot be used on mobile devices, so it creates a barrier in
>> > communication. On the other hand, the other chat applications are
>> available on
>> > all platforms for everyone to use.
>> >
>> > I would like to request the team to please consider this request. If
>> such
>> > request has been made earlier and denied due to some reasons, then I
>> would like
>> > to know them so that I can understand the reasons and work accordingly.
>> >
>> > Regards.
>> > Prashant Sengar
>>
>> > ___
>> > Sugar-devel mailing list
>> > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>
>>
>> --
>> James Cameron
>> http://quozl.netrek.org/
>> ___
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>> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[Bottersnike]

I think one of the main issues with IRC is the onboarding experience, or
rather lack thereof. For new users, they're faced with an entirely blank
screen, with no trivial way to search for past questions, see if a topic
has been brought up before, or even just read through history to get a
general idea of the way the organization operates. Sure, there may be
archives maintained, but for someone who has just discovered SugarLabs and
wants to contribute, that really isn't going to be a viable solution,
because it takes significant effort to hunt them down and search through
them. For established teams, this isn't much of an issue, but it can make
SugarLabs an incredibly daunting organization for young students from, say
GCI, or people looking around at different organizations for GSoC.

> I use Quassel, as it keeps backlog.

Most clients keep a backlog, but only if your computer is on. That's not
the situation 24/7 for a lot of people.

(Sorry for the double message, James. I accidentally used Reply not Reply
All)

On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:15 PM James Cameron  wrote:

> Thanks for asking.
>
> For real-time presence messaging, please use IRC channel #sugar on
> freenode.net.  Your choice of client.  I use Quassel, as it keeps
> backlog.
>
> For store and forward messaging, please use the mailing list.  Your
> choice of client.
>
> You'll get a voice on choice of tools once you've been working with us
> for a few months.  Until then we can't trust that you've assessed the
> situation accurately.
>
> Gitter.im was yet another attempt to split our community into the
> haves and the have-nots.  I'm almost ready to ditch my account there
> because it has way less benefit than the cost.  Of receiving a mail
> notification, logging in, and answering the same old questions.  It is
> quite boring.  You can see that if you look through the previous
> discussion, which you'll find was entirely sporadic; someone
> has a question, I answer, nothing else happens.  It could have been
> done in mail.  It costs so much memory and screen real-estate that I
> can't see myself staying connected.  I certainly don't want it
> promoted for Sugar Labs, but I'm willing to keep it available in case
> it turns out to be useful for working with anyone who can't figure out
> how to use IRC.  We must allow for the possibility that someone with a
> disability has been given access to Gitter.im but not to IRC.  So a
> matter of inclusiveness, but not emphasis.
>
> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 08:03:31PM +0530, Prashant Sengar wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I wanted
> to ask
> > if Sugar could create a communication channel on another platform such
> as a
> > discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to make communication
> easier.
> >
> > The reason why others will be a better option:
> > 1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while, unlike
> IRC
> > where I cannot see any earlier data.
> > 2. IRC cannot be used on mobile devices, so it creates a barrier in
> > communication. On the other hand, the other chat applications are
> available on
> > all platforms for everyone to use.
> >
> > I would like to request the team to please consider this request. If such
> > request has been made earlier and denied due to some reasons, then I
> would like
> > to know them so that I can understand the reasons and work accordingly.
> >
> > Regards.
> > Prashant Sengar
>
> > ___
> > Sugar-devel mailing list
> > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
> ___
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[James Cameron]

Thanks for asking.

For real-time presence messaging, please use IRC channel #sugar on
freenode.net.  Your choice of client.  I use Quassel, as it keeps
backlog.

For store and forward messaging, please use the mailing list.  Your
choice of client.

You'll get a voice on choice of tools once you've been working with us
for a few months.  Until then we can't trust that you've assessed the
situation accurately.

Gitter.im was yet another attempt to split our community into the
haves and the have-nots.  I'm almost ready to ditch my account there
because it has way less benefit than the cost.  Of receiving a mail
notification, logging in, and answering the same old questions.  It is
quite boring.  You can see that if you look through the previous
discussion, which you'll find was entirely sporadic; someone
has a question, I answer, nothing else happens.  It could have been
done in mail.  It costs so much memory and screen real-estate that I
can't see myself staying connected.  I certainly don't want it
promoted for Sugar Labs, but I'm willing to keep it available in case
it turns out to be useful for working with anyone who can't figure out
how to use IRC.  We must allow for the possibility that someone with a
disability has been given access to Gitter.im but not to IRC.  So a
matter of inclusiveness, but not emphasis.

On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 08:03:31PM +0530, Prashant Sengar wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I wanted to ask
> if Sugar could create a communication channel on another platform such as a
> discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to make communication easier.
> 
> The reason why others will be a better option:
> 1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while, unlike IRC
> where I cannot see any earlier data.
> 2. IRC cannot be used on mobile devices, so it creates a barrier in
> communication. On the other hand, the other chat applications are available on
> all platforms for everyone to use.
> 
> I would like to request the team to please consider this request. If such
> request has been made earlier and denied due to some reasons, then I would 
> like
> to know them so that I can understand the reasons and work accordingly.
> 
> Regards.
> Prashant Sengar

> ___
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel


-- 
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http://quozl.netrek.org/
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[Prashant Sengar]

Hi Alex,

Yes I have used IRC before and I still don't really like it. I have tried
and used multiple IRC chat apps on my Android device and none of them
worked stably. I completely understand your reasons of not using other
platforms and I had read the few reasons mentioned in the docs.

As per suggestions, I will keep trying to learn more about IRC and get more
familiar with it.

Thanks for your response.

Prashant Sengar


On Wed, Mar 4, 2020, 11:37 PM Alex Perez  wrote:

> Prashant,
>
> We also offer our own Sugar Labs specific IRC chat gateway, at
> http://chat.sugarlabs.org:9090/
>
> I'd like to understand more fully why you believe IRC is hard for you to
> use. Is it hard because you've never used it before? Is it hard because you
> have no familiarity with it? IRC can absolutely be used on mobile devices,
> and this basic misunderstanding shows me that you're not particularly
> familiar with some basic IRC facts, nor have you bothered to open your
> mobile phone up, go to the app store, and type "IRC" in to the search
> field. Which mobile platform are you using? Android? iOS? If you tell us,
> we can recommend some clients for you.
>
> The issue of loss-of-state when you're disconnected from IRC is a known
> problem for 25+ years, and many ways to address it have been developed over
> that period of time.  There are IRC bouncers, web-based IRC clients, and
> all sorts of other solutions to these problems, if you can be bothered to
> search for them, instead of assuming that no solution exists, which is
> sorta what seems to have happened here.
>
> There are several reasons why we don't use Slack, Discord, or other
> proprietary messaging systems, which I'm not going to get into the details
> of here, but since they are corporate owned-and-operated pieces of
> infrastructure, they may or may not exist in the future.
>
> The primary problem with using Gitter is that it requires you to have a
> GitHub account, and has no other authentication mechanism. Developers are
> not the only people we care about, and IRC is accessible to all, and is
> fundamentally democratic.
>
> Prashant Sengar 
> March 4, 2020 at 6:33 AM
> Hi,
>
> I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I wanted to
> ask if Sugar could create a communication channel on another platform such
> as a discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to make communication
> easier.
>
> The reason why others will be a better option:
> 1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while, unlike
> IRC where I cannot see any earlier data.
> 2. IRC cannot be used on mobile devices, so it creates a barrier in
> communication. On the other hand, the other chat applications are available
> on all platforms for everyone to use.
>
> I would like to request the team to please consider this request. If such
> request has been made earlier and denied due to some reasons, then I would
> like to know them so that I can understand the reasons and work accordingly.
>
> Regards.
> Prashant Sengar
>
>
> ___
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>
>
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[D. Joe]

Please consider also using the freenode Matrix bridge to the IRC channels, 
which gives a lot of the advantages people seek from the locked-in, 
single-vendor, centralized, proprietary services.

Mozilla has very recently gone through the process of re-evaluating their needs 
in this regard and decided to use Matrix entirely.

That gitter is being used is a good demonstration of the fact that this project 
isn't really in a position to decide what people use. People decide that on 
their own and we do the best with it that we can. 

For example, I'll acknowledge that our Gitter users have established it as yet 
another glinting shard on the great fractured disco ball of haphazardly 
connected sites and services and projects that is Sugarlabs.

The Mozilla and Gitter developments are the recent updates, but beyond that I'm 
not going to repeat myself, but rather refer back to previous iterations of 
this conversation through this link and the discussion before it to which it, 
in turn, also refers:

http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/sugar-devel/2018-February/055064.html

If a Gitter-IRC bridge has been stood up and is being maintained by anyone, 
please let me know. 

-- 
Joe


On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 11:00:00PM +0530, Prashant Sengar wrote:
> Thanks a log for your response. I completely understand the transparency
> maintained by sugar and value it. I did not know about the gitter chat room as
> I didn't find it in the wiki. I will be happy to add it in the wiki if it 
> isn't
> really there and I did not make a mistake.
> 
> 
> Thanks and regards,
> Prashant Sengar
>  
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020, 10:45 PM Chihurumnaya Ibiam <
> ibiamchihurumn...@sugarlabs.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Prashant,
> 
> 1. We have a gitter chat room which you can use, James is quite active
> there so he'll see your messages if you sent any.
> 2. IRC can be used on android devices and they're various clients, I use
> androirc you can check it out.
> 
> We prefer communication be done on the mailing list for transparency as a
> lot of people are subscribed to it and not everyone is on other platforms.
> 
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 3:33 PM Prashant Sengar 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I wanted
> to ask if Sugar could create a communication channel on another
> platform such as a discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to
> make communication easier.
> 
> The reason why others will be a better option:
> 1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while,
> unlike IRC where I cannot see any earlier data.
> 2. IRC cannot be used on mobile devices, so it creates a barrier in
> communication. On the other hand, the other chat applications are
> available on all platforms for everyone to use.
> 
> I would like to request the team to please consider this request. If
> such request has been made earlier and denied due to some reasons, 
> then
> I would like to know them so that I can understand the reasons and 
> work
> accordingly.
> 
> Regards.
> Prashant Sengar
> ___
> Sugar-devel mailing list
> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
> 

> ___
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> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel


-- 
-- 
Joe   On ceding power to tech companies: http://xkcd.com/1118/
man screen | grep -A2 weird
  A weird imagination is most useful to gain full advantage of
  all the features.
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[Alex Perez]

Srevin,

Srevin Saju 
March 4, 2020 at 10:07 AM
I agree to Prashant. To me Slack seems to be a viable option, and 
indeed popular too. But unfortunately due to historical reasons, we 
might not move to another platform. Nevertheless, it might be of 
interest to other developers in the community
We will not be moving our real-time communication mechanism to Slack, or 
any other proprietary chat platform. See my other e-mail for a bit more 
of an explanation as to why, or, if you've got 20 minutes, please read 
this article: 
https://sneak.berlin/20200220/discord-is-not-an-acceptable-choice-for-free-software-projects/


I use slack daily for communications with work colleagues, and don't 
hate it, though I wish their stand-alone clients didn't use a shitload 
of RAM (they're Electron-based browser apps)
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[Alex Perez]

Prashant,

We also offer our own Sugar Labs specific IRC chat gateway, at 
http://chat.sugarlabs.org:9090/


I'd like to understand more fully why you believe IRC is hard for you to 
use. Is it hard because you've never used it before? Is it hard because 
you have no familiarity with it? IRC can absolutely be used on mobile 
devices, and this basic misunderstanding shows me that you're not 
particularly familiar with some basic IRC facts, nor have you bothered 
to open your mobile phone up, go to the app store, and type "IRC" in to 
the search field. Which mobile platform are you using? Android? iOS? If 
you tell us, we can recommend some clients for you.


The issue of loss-of-state when you're disconnected from IRC is a known 
problem for 25+ years, and many ways to address it have been developed 
over that period of time.  There are IRC bouncers, web-based IRC 
clients, and all sorts of other solutions to these problems, if you can 
be bothered to search for them, instead of assuming that no solution 
exists, which is sorta what seems to have happened here.


There are several reasons why we don't use Slack, Discord, or other 
proprietary messaging systems, which I'm not going to get into the 
details of here, but since they are corporate owned-and-operated pieces 
of infrastructure, they may or may not exist in the future.


The primary problem with using Gitter is that it requires you to have a 
GitHub account, and has no other authentication mechanism. Developers 
are not the only people we care about, and IRC is accessible to all, and 
is fundamentally democratic.



Prashant Sengar 
March 4, 2020 at 6:33 AM
Hi,

I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I wanted 
to ask if Sugar could create a communication channel on another 
platform such as a discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to 
make communication easier.


The reason why others will be a better option:
1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while, 
unlike IRC where I cannot see any earlier data.
2. IRC cannot be used on mobile devices, so it creates a barrier in 
communication. On the other hand, the other chat applications are 
available on all platforms for everyone to use.


I would like to request the team to please consider this request. If 
such request has been made earlier and denied due to some reasons, 
then I would like to know them so that I can understand the reasons 
and work accordingly.


Regards.
Prashant Sengar


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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[Srevin Saju]

I agree to Prashant. To me Slack seems to be a viable option, and indeed
popular too. But unfortunately due to historical reasons, we might not move
to another platform. Nevertheless, it might be of interest to other
developers in the community

I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I wanted to
> ask if Sugar could create a communication channel on another platform such
> as a discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to make communication
> easier.
>
> The reason why others will be a better option:
> 1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while, unlike
> IRC where I cannot see any earlier data.
> 2. IRC cannot be used on mobile devices, so it creates a barrier in
> communication. On the other hand, the other chat applications are available
> on all platforms for everyone to use.
>
> I would like to request the team to please consider this request. If such
> request has been made earlier and denied due to some reasons, then I would
> like to know them so that I can understand the reasons and work
> accordingly.
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[Prashant Sengar]

Thanks a log for your response. I completely understand the transparency
maintained by sugar and value it. I did not know about the gitter chat room
as I didn't find it in the wiki. I will be happy to add it in the wiki if
it isn't really there and I did not make a mistake.


Thanks and regards,
Prashant Sengar

On Wed, Mar 4, 2020, 10:45 PM Chihurumnaya Ibiam <
ibiamchihurumn...@sugarlabs.org> wrote:

> Hi Prashant,
>
> 1. We have a gitter chat room 
> which you can use, James is quite active there so he'll see your messages
> if you sent any.
> 2. IRC can be used on android devices and they're various clients, I use
> androirc
>  you
> can check it out.
>
> We prefer communication be done on the mailing list for transparency as a
> lot of people are subscribed to it and not everyone is on other platforms.
>
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 3:33 PM Prashant Sengar 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I wanted to
>> ask if Sugar could create a communication channel on another platform such
>> as a discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to make communication
>> easier.
>>
>> The reason why others will be a better option:
>> 1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while, unlike
>> IRC where I cannot see any earlier data.
>> 2. IRC cannot be used on mobile devices, so it creates a barrier in
>> communication. On the other hand, the other chat applications are available
>> on all platforms for everyone to use.
>>
>> I would like to request the team to please consider this request. If such
>> request has been made earlier and denied due to some reasons, then I would
>> like to know them so that I can understand the reasons and work accordingly.
>>
>> Regards.
>> Prashant Sengar
>> ___
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>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
>>
>
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Re: [Sugar-devel] Proposal to move communication to other platform

[Chihurumnaya Ibiam]

Hi Prashant,

1. We have a gitter chat room 
which you can use, James is quite active there so he'll see your messages
if you sent any.
2. IRC can be used on android devices and they're various clients, I use
androirc
 you
can check it out.

We prefer communication be done on the mailing list for transparency as a
lot of people are subscribed to it and not everyone is on other platforms.

On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 3:33 PM Prashant Sengar 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am sure this request must have been raised earlier as well. I wanted to
> ask if Sugar could create a communication channel on another platform such
> as a discord server, Slack or Telegram instead of IRC to make communication
> easier.
>
> The reason why others will be a better option:
> 1. The chats will be accessible even if I am offline for a while, unlike
> IRC where I cannot see any earlier data.
> 2. IRC cannot be used on mobile devices, so it creates a barrier in
> communication. On the other hand, the other chat applications are available
> on all platforms for everyone to use.
>
> I would like to request the team to please consider this request. If such
> request has been made earlier and denied due to some reasons, then I would
> like to know them so that I can understand the reasons and work accordingly.
>
> Regards.
> Prashant Sengar
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>
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