Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
2009/8/11 Gary C Martin g...@garycmartin.com: What are the user interfaces like when dealing with multiple activities? Well, we have this already, it's called the Journal. Just download Activity bundles and they all live there (and have done as far back as I can recall)... If I click on a new version of an activity in browse, does it upgrade the one I have or install it in parallel? It downloads the bundle to Journal and auto unpacks/installs, though this may have been modified by a very recent patch I haven't poked at yet: http://dev.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1042 How do I erase old versions? Delete the bundle form the Journal When I click the activity from the home screen, which version gets launched? The last one that you installed (via either downloading in Browse or clicking a bundle in Journal). OK - this all makes sense. But it all involves only 1 activity being installed at the same time, and simply having the bundles for other versions being present in the Journal. Maybe I'm reading the bug report wrong, but to me it seems to say that if Read ETexts v1 is installed (where installed = extracted on disk, icon on home screen, etc), and if we then click a link to Read ETexts v2, then that one *additionally* gets installed without the first one being removed. Right? Or maybe I misunderstood and the behaviour is supposed to be as before - v1 would get uninstalled, v2 would get installed - but it's broken? If we can't upgrade activities then that sounds like a valid bug, and unrelated to having multiple versions installed at once. Daniel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 02:24:46AM +0100, Gary C Martin wrote: On 10 Aug 2009, at 17:24, Daniel Drake wrote: 2009/8/10 Martin Dengler mar...@martindengler.com: Learner-generated activity patches, perhaps? Like, we're under a tree and here's my patched Terminal/Pippy/Speak that you may want to try but not commit to blowing-away your official version... Do we have the relevant tools/interfaces/activities to make this possible and realistic? It's not so far off... What are the user interfaces like when dealing with multiple activities? Well, we have this already, it's called the Journal. Just download Activity bundles and they all live there (and have done as far back as I can recall)... If I click on a new version of an activity in browse, does it upgrade the one I have or install it in parallel? It downloads the bundle to Journal and auto unpacks/installs, though this may have been modified by a very recent patch I haven't poked at yet: http://dev.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1042 How do I erase old versions? Delete the bundle form the Journal When I click the activity from the home screen, which version gets launched? The last one that you installed (via either downloading in Browse or clicking a bundle in Journal). Having user-modifiable activities like this is a nice idea, and laying the groundwork to make it possible could also be sensible, but right now it seems like we aren't ready and the reason for the introduction of this code is/was for unrelated reasons. We would need a button to create an Activity bundle and pop it into the Journal). So work flow could be: 1) download some activity via Browse 2) Start it up 3) Click on Edit Source – would be new feature, currently we just have View Source, but there is a patch for the view that could be close if desired, from Lucian http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Almanac#How_do_I_create_a_text_box_for_code_editing.3F 4) Quit, Start, test, goto 3 and repeat 5) Click on Keep Activity bundle to Journal – would be new feature in Edit Source toolbar 6) Use Send to friend to share bundle with others As long as you kept the original bundle in your Journal, you can click it to restore the original code, and click a bundle you or a friend made to hop back in to an edit workflow cycle. Plenty to polish and smooth workflow, but an editable source view and a 'make bundle' button don't seem to horrendous to consider if this is seen as a desired feature to push on. I also feel that this functionality would rarely be used in the field. Agreed, but our minority percentage of 'to be geek' learners (we only need ~0.01% of users to be geeky enough to get us ~1000 new activity Authors) would be the ones in field to benifit, though clearly it would allow many more just to tinker with python. I can imagine starting with a template activity (could be helloworld, could be a Physics template, Simple game template etc) where folks then modify and add to it to create their own activity, game, et al, and learn how to build new activities. Work flow would be basically hack on live installed version for a while it for a while, bundle it when you want to keep a snapshot to Journal (version), repeat, rinse, share bundle once you're happy with it. Disclaimer, there are likely better ways of doing this but at great development cost, this is my view of the likely shortest path to feature. Regards, --Gary +1024 thats the original idea behind http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Activity_Objects imho for me versioning sounds really dreadful lets think about all these activities/clones/versions in more simple way kid A created a toy #1 from LEGO bricks(in our case activity), kid B decided that it looks cool, cloned it and created his own toy #2, kid C using the right moment borrowed #1 and #2 toys. Should kids track all these relationships between #1 - cloned-to-#2 - moved to C? All these toys are unique entities(in our case unique Journal objects). At the same time serious men(like sugar developers) could do serious things(like releasing new versions, applying patches, cloning git repos, track all versions in git) but from kids POV incoming new activity version is just another object in his Journal which appears after running updater from control panel(we should provide some way to override existed activities but make this process explicit). -- Aleksey ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 03:51:43PM +, Aleksey Lim wrote: On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 02:24:46AM +0100, Gary C Martin wrote: On 10 Aug 2009, at 17:24, Daniel Drake wrote: 2009/8/10 Martin Dengler mar...@martindengler.com: Learner-generated activity patches, perhaps? Like, we're under a tree and here's my patched Terminal/Pippy/Speak that you may want to try but not commit to blowing-away your official version... Do we have the relevant tools/interfaces/activities to make this possible and realistic? It's not so far off... What are the user interfaces like when dealing with multiple activities? Well, we have this already, it's called the Journal. Just download Activity bundles and they all live there (and have done as far back as I can recall)... If I click on a new version of an activity in browse, does it upgrade the one I have or install it in parallel? It downloads the bundle to Journal and auto unpacks/installs, though this may have been modified by a very recent patch I haven't poked at yet: http://dev.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1042 How do I erase old versions? Delete the bundle form the Journal When I click the activity from the home screen, which version gets launched? The last one that you installed (via either downloading in Browse or clicking a bundle in Journal). Having user-modifiable activities like this is a nice idea, and laying the groundwork to make it possible could also be sensible, but right now it seems like we aren't ready and the reason for the introduction of this code is/was for unrelated reasons. We would need a button to create an Activity bundle and pop it into the Journal). So work flow could be: 1) download some activity via Browse 2) Start it up 3) Click on Edit Source – would be new feature, currently we just have View Source, but there is a patch for the view that could be close if desired, from Lucian http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Almanac#How_do_I_create_a_text_box_for_code_editing.3F 4) Quit, Start, test, goto 3 and repeat 5) Click on Keep Activity bundle to Journal – would be new feature in Edit Source toolbar 6) Use Send to friend to share bundle with others As long as you kept the original bundle in your Journal, you can click it to restore the original code, and click a bundle you or a friend made to hop back in to an edit workflow cycle. Plenty to polish and smooth workflow, but an editable source view and a 'make bundle' button don't seem to horrendous to consider if this is seen as a desired feature to push on. I also feel that this functionality would rarely be used in the field. Agreed, but our minority percentage of 'to be geek' learners (we only need ~0.01% of users to be geeky enough to get us ~1000 new activity Authors) would be the ones in field to benifit, though clearly it would allow many more just to tinker with python. I can imagine starting with a template activity (could be helloworld, could be a Physics template, Simple game template etc) where folks then modify and add to it to create their own activity, game, et al, and learn how to build new activities. Work flow would be basically hack on live installed version for a while it for a while, bundle it when you want to keep a snapshot to Journal (version), repeat, rinse, share bundle once you're happy with it. Disclaimer, there are likely better ways of doing this but at great development cost, this is my view of the likely shortest path to feature. Regards, --Gary +1024 thats the original idea behind http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Activity_Objects imho for me versioning sounds really dreadful lets think about all these activities/clones/versions in more simple way kid A created a toy #1 from LEGO bricks(in our case activity), kid B decided that it looks cool, cloned it and created his own toy #2, kid C using the right moment borrowed #1 and #2 toys. Should kids track all these relationships between #1 - cloned-to-#2 - moved to C? All these toys are unique entities(in our case unique Journal objects). At the same time serious men(like sugar developers) could do serious things(like releasing new versions, applying patches, cloning git repos, track all versions in git) but from kids POV incoming new activity version is just another object in his Journal which appears after running updater from control panel (we should provide some way to override existed activities but make this process explicit). In that case we can switch our activity identification scheme from bundle_id/version to bundle_id/source/version i.e. * versions of Terminal from native packages is one thread * versions of Terminal from ASLO is another thread * hand made versions of Terminal is 3rd thread * hand made
Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 03:24, Gary C Marting...@garycmartin.com wrote: On 10 Aug 2009, at 17:24, Daniel Drake wrote: 2009/8/10 Martin Dengler mar...@martindengler.com: Learner-generated activity patches, perhaps? Like, we're under a tree and here's my patched Terminal/Pippy/Speak that you may want to try but not commit to blowing-away your official version... Do we have the relevant tools/interfaces/activities to make this possible and realistic? It's not so far off... What are the user interfaces like when dealing with multiple activities? Well, we have this already, it's called the Journal. Just download Activity bundles and they all live there (and have done as far back as I can recall)... If I click on a new version of an activity in browse, does it upgrade the one I have or install it in parallel? It downloads the bundle to Journal and auto unpacks/installs, though this may have been modified by a very recent patch I haven't poked at yet: http://dev.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1042 How do I erase old versions? Delete the bundle form the Journal When I click the activity from the home screen, which version gets launched? The last one that you installed (via either downloading in Browse or clicking a bundle in Journal). Having user-modifiable activities like this is a nice idea, and laying the groundwork to make it possible could also be sensible, but right now it seems like we aren't ready and the reason for the introduction of this code is/was for unrelated reasons. We would need a button to create an Activity bundle and pop it into the Journal). So work flow could be: 1) download some activity via Browse 2) Start it up 3) Click on Edit Source – would be new feature, currently we just have View Source, but there is a patch for the view that could be close if desired, from Lucian http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Almanac#How_do_I_create_a_text_box_for_code_editing.3F 4) Quit, Start, test, goto 3 and repeat 5) Click on Keep Activity bundle to Journal – would be new feature in Edit Source toolbar 6) Use Send to friend to share bundle with others As long as you kept the original bundle in your Journal, you can click it to restore the original code, and click a bundle you or a friend made to hop back in to an edit workflow cycle. Plenty to polish and smooth workflow, but an editable source view and a 'make bundle' button don't seem to horrendous to consider if this is seen as a desired feature to push on. I also feel that this functionality would rarely be used in the field. Agreed, but our minority percentage of 'to be geek' learners (we only need ~0.01% of users to be geeky enough to get us ~1000 new activity Authors) would be the ones in field to benifit, though clearly it would allow many more just to tinker with python. I can imagine starting with a template activity (could be helloworld, could be a Physics template, Simple game template etc) where folks then modify and add to it to create their own activity, game, et al, and learn how to build new activities. Work flow would be basically hack on live installed version for a while it for a while, bundle it when you want to keep a snapshot to Journal (version), repeat, rinse, share bundle once you're happy with it. Disclaimer, there are likely better ways of doing this but at great development cost, this is my view of the likely shortest path to feature. +1, I like this approach at tackling unsolved problems. Thanks, Tomeu Regards, --Gary ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
2009/8/10 Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org: Hi, any opinions on this? I dislike the idea of having multiple versions installed at once. The argument I saw for this case was that different versions might have incompatibilities in their collaboration protocols, but I feel that we should instead stick to standard software practices of not breaking network-exposed APIs during a stable cycle. If people choose to break it, let them pick up the pieces. Are there other reasons? Daniel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 09:26:58PM +0545, Daniel Drake wrote: 2009/8/10 Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org: Hi, any opinions on this? I dislike the idea of having multiple versions installed at once. The argument I saw for this case was that different versions might have incompatibilities in their collaboration protocols. Are there other reasons? Learner-generated activity patches, perhaps? Like, we're under a tree and here's my patched Terminal/Pippy/Speak that you may want to try but not commit to blowing-away your official version... Daniel Martin pgpzPRNUGuNzZ.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 17:48, Martin Denglermar...@martindengler.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 09:26:58PM +0545, Daniel Drake wrote: 2009/8/10 Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org: Hi, any opinions on this? I dislike the idea of having multiple versions installed at once. The argument I saw for this case was that different versions might have incompatibilities in their collaboration protocols. Are there other reasons? Learner-generated activity patches, perhaps? Like, we're under a tree and here's my patched Terminal/Pippy/Speak that you may want to try but not commit to blowing-away your official version... Maybe we should encourage changing the name in these cases? Regards, Tomeu Daniel Martin ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
Martin Dengler wrote: On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 09:26:58PM +0545, Daniel Drake wrote: 2009/8/10 Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org: Hi, any opinions on this? I dislike the idea of having multiple versions installed at once. The argument I saw for this case was that different versions might have incompatibilities in their collaboration protocols. Are there other reasons? Learner-generated activity patches, perhaps? Like, we're under a tree and here's my patched Terminal/Pippy/Speak that you may want to try but not commit to blowing-away your official version... I agree... and this is why we need to have real activity versioning support. The plan has always been to piggyback activity multiversion support on top of the datastore's versioning capabilities, and until that has landed, in my view, there's not much we can do. --Ben signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Benjamin M. Schwartzbmsch...@fas.harvard.edu wrote: Martin Dengler wrote: On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 09:26:58PM +0545, Daniel Drake wrote: 2009/8/10 Tomeu Vizoso to...@sugarlabs.org: Hi, any opinions on this? I dislike the idea of having multiple versions installed at once. The argument I saw for this case was that different versions might have incompatibilities in their collaboration protocols. Are there other reasons? Learner-generated activity patches, perhaps? Like, we're under a tree and here's my patched Terminal/Pippy/Speak that you may want to try but not commit to blowing-away your official version... I agree... and this is why we need to have real activity versioning support. The plan has always been to piggyback activity multiversion support on top of the datastore's versioning capabilities, and until that has landed, in my view, there's not much we can do. I think I agree with both Ben and Tomeu, here. Supporting multiple activity versions is crucial to allowing kids to modify activities, or create their own. At the same time, I also believe that a new owner (as in the example of modifying the Speak activity under a tree) should result in a new activity thread. That is, the resulting activity would actually be version one of (potentially) many. For this reason, encouraging a name change when ownership changes might be apropos. Eben ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
2009/8/10 Martin Dengler mar...@martindengler.com: Learner-generated activity patches, perhaps? Like, we're under a tree and here's my patched Terminal/Pippy/Speak that you may want to try but not commit to blowing-away your official version... Do we have the relevant tools/interfaces/activities to make this possible and realistic? What are the user interfaces like when dealing with multiple activities? If I click on a new version of an activity in browse, does it upgrade the one I have or install it in parallel? How do I erase old versions? When I click the activity from the home screen, which version gets launched? Having user-modifiable activities like this is a nice idea, and laying the groundwork to make it possible could also be sensible, but right now it seems like we aren't ready and the reason for the introduction of this code is/was for unrelated reasons. I also feel that this functionality would rarely be used in the field. Daniel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 10:09:06PM +0545, Daniel Drake wrote: 2009/8/10 Martin Dengler mar...@martindengler.com: Learner-generated activity patches, perhaps? Like, we're under a tree and here's my patched Terminal/Pippy/Speak that you may want to try but not commit to blowing-away your official version... Do we have the relevant tools/interfaces/activities to make this possible and realistic? No, but I assume that was a rhetorical question, as you're in the field and know better than I. But we were talking about why one might need more than one version at once, not whether it's possible now. I understand this thread to date as demonstrating: 1) one doesn't need more than one version right now (since it's impossible) 2) numbers of people think this is a valid use case, but lots of work remains to be done to make it viable. So... Having user-modifiable activities like this is a nice idea, and laying the groundwork to make it possible could also be sensible, but right now it seems like we aren't ready and the reason for the introduction of this code is/was for unrelated reasons. Do you propose SL explictly not support this (closing the bug as WONTFIX or something, presumably) and - separately - let it be a goal/feature request once there are sponsors? That seems sensible to me. I also feel that this functionality would rarely be used in the field. This can go two ways - I think a target audience principle / goal (that you asked after / proposed in another thread) would imply how used / valuable we thought this feature was: the younger the target audience, the less important the feature would seem to be. Daniel Martin pgpNsMx4J7hXO.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
I think I agree with both Ben and Tomeu, here. Supporting multiple activity versions is crucial to allowing kids to modify activities, or create their own. At the same time, I also believe that a new owner (as in the example of modifying the Speak activity under a tree) should result in a new activity thread. That is, the resulting activity would actually be version one of (potentially) many. For this reason, encouraging a name change when ownership changes might be apropos. We have encountered this need in the past (change the name of an activity to introduce a specific feature for example). The process was documented by Pablo Flores here (in Spanish but I believe it's easy to follow): http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Ceibal_Jam/Modificar_Actividad It's not very difficult but it would be nice to have an easier way integrated in the Sugar UI. For example, a clone entry in the activities view palette? Or include this feature with the develop activity which should have special permissions? Regards, Gabriel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] multiple activity versions installed simultaneously (was Re: [Bugs] #1042 UNSP: cannot install new activity version)
On 10 Aug 2009, at 17:24, Daniel Drake wrote: 2009/8/10 Martin Dengler mar...@martindengler.com: Learner-generated activity patches, perhaps? Like, we're under a tree and here's my patched Terminal/Pippy/Speak that you may want to try but not commit to blowing-away your official version... Do we have the relevant tools/interfaces/activities to make this possible and realistic? It's not so far off... What are the user interfaces like when dealing with multiple activities? Well, we have this already, it's called the Journal. Just download Activity bundles and they all live there (and have done as far back as I can recall)... If I click on a new version of an activity in browse, does it upgrade the one I have or install it in parallel? It downloads the bundle to Journal and auto unpacks/installs, though this may have been modified by a very recent patch I haven't poked at yet: http://dev.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1042 How do I erase old versions? Delete the bundle form the Journal When I click the activity from the home screen, which version gets launched? The last one that you installed (via either downloading in Browse or clicking a bundle in Journal). Having user-modifiable activities like this is a nice idea, and laying the groundwork to make it possible could also be sensible, but right now it seems like we aren't ready and the reason for the introduction of this code is/was for unrelated reasons. We would need a button to create an Activity bundle and pop it into the Journal). So work flow could be: 1) download some activity via Browse 2) Start it up 3) Click on Edit Source – would be new feature, currently we just have View Source, but there is a patch for the view that could be close if desired, from Lucian http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Development_Team/Almanac#How_do_I_create_a_text_box_for_code_editing.3F 4) Quit, Start, test, goto 3 and repeat 5) Click on Keep Activity bundle to Journal – would be new feature in Edit Source toolbar 6) Use Send to friend to share bundle with others As long as you kept the original bundle in your Journal, you can click it to restore the original code, and click a bundle you or a friend made to hop back in to an edit workflow cycle. Plenty to polish and smooth workflow, but an editable source view and a 'make bundle' button don't seem to horrendous to consider if this is seen as a desired feature to push on. I also feel that this functionality would rarely be used in the field. Agreed, but our minority percentage of 'to be geek' learners (we only need ~0.01% of users to be geeky enough to get us ~1000 new activity Authors) would be the ones in field to benifit, though clearly it would allow many more just to tinker with python. I can imagine starting with a template activity (could be helloworld, could be a Physics template, Simple game template etc) where folks then modify and add to it to create their own activity, game, et al, and learn how to build new activities. Work flow would be basically hack on live installed version for a while it for a while, bundle it when you want to keep a snapshot to Journal (version), repeat, rinse, share bundle once you're happy with it. Disclaimer, there are likely better ways of doing this but at great development cost, this is my view of the likely shortest path to feature. Regards, --Gary ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
