Skylight Dial
Hello All, Do we know anything about this sundial? It is featured on the cover of this company's product literature: http://www.trenwyth.com/ Notice the small banner underneath the mullion that serves as the style...it is a nice detail, I thought, an inexpensive way to shape the shadow and indicate which one to use. Happy New Years, everyone! Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Skylight Dial
Hi Jim: I have never seen this sundial (term applied losely). I assume it's a south vertical dial since 12 noon is directly below the origin of the gnomon. I agree at first glance that the concept of using the mullion and a banner is interesting, and I like the color scheme, but I can't get over the fact that this dial is flawed in so many ways. Let's start with the the gnomon. I assume that the style is where the hourlines seem to converge if extended. It's hard to tell if it is supposed to be the top of the banner or the mullion. It certainly can't be the curved bottom of the banner. There is a gap between the bottom of the mullion and the top of the banner. What are we supposed to look at to tell the time? The shadow of the mullion, the projected light through gap, or the shadow of top of the banner? In any case, all three of them are wrong because they are produced from objects that are perpendicular to the dial face. The style should point downwards and be parallel to the polar axis. This is such a common mistake made with many south vertical wall dials made by incompetent designers. That flawed dial in Kansas City I mentioned yesterday also suffers from this. Then what's going on with those hour numerals? They are evenly spaced when then should be closer together at midday. Why don't you write them to find out who designed it and where it's located. I wonder if it's at their corporate headquarters. I might write them myself. I'm curious. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. Tallman Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 9:47 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Skylight Dial Hello All, Do we know anything about this sundial? It is featured on the cover of this company's product literature: http://www.trenwyth.com/ Notice the small banner underneath the mullion that serves as the style...it is a nice detail, I thought, an inexpensive way to shape the shadow and indicate which one to use. Happy New Years, everyone! Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Skylight Dial
Sunny Day! I have looked at the photo of this sundial and it could actually be a functional sundial. It is New Years Eve and I could be a little hammered so I guess I could be wrong. Please let me know if I am. I have attached a photo of the sundial with the hour lines extended. They appear to join at an origin located at the top edge of the banner making this top edge the style. Looking closely at the vertical corner where the yellow and blue walls join it can be seen that the glass roof actually slopes down slightly. This would make the top edge of the banner, the style, slope down slightly. This slight slope would indicate that the building is probably located at lower latitude making the gnomon's height of a vertical sundial approach the vertical. This in turn would make the hour line angles almost equiangular or close enough to make them appear to be in such a photo. Also noon does not appear to be directly below the origin indicating that the hour lines have been corrected for longitude. But then again the thing could be just messed up. Then I would be wrong. I need another drink in that case! Happy Dialling! Carl Sabanski www.mysundial.ca Get Hooked on Gnomonics! RE: Skylight Dial John Carmichael Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:06:23 -0800 Hi Jim: I have never seen this sundial (term applied losely). I assume it's a south vertical dial since 12 noon is directly below the origin of the gnomon. I agree at first glance that the concept of using the mullion and a banner is interesting, and I like the color scheme, but I can't get over the fact that this dial is flawed in so many ways. Let's start with the the gnomon. I assume that the style is where the hourlines seem to converge if extended. It's hard to tell if it is supposed to be the top of the banner or the mullion. It certainly can't be the curved bottom of the banner. There is a gap between the bottom of the mullion and the top of the banner. What are we supposed to look at to tell the time? The shadow of the mullion, the projected light through gap, or the shadow of top of the banner? In any case, all three of them are wrong because they are produced from objects that are perpendicular to the dial face. The style should point downwards and be parallel to the polar axis. This is such a common mistake made with many south vertical wall dials made by incompetent designers. That flawed dial in Kansas City I mentioned yesterday also suffers from this. Then what's going on with those hour numerals? They are evenly spaced when then should be closer together at midday. Why don't you write them to find out who designed it and where it's located. I wonder if it's at their corporate headquarters. I might write them myself. I'm curious. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. Tallman Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 9:47 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Skylight Dial Hello All, Do we know anything about this sundial? It is featured on the cover of this company's product literature: http://www.trenwyth.com/ Notice the small banner underneath the mullion that serves as the style...it is a nice detail, I thought, an inexpensive way to shape the shadow and indicate which one to use. Happy New Years, everyone! Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] attachment: vert_sundial.jpg--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Skylight Dial
Well, maybe you're right Carl But it is impossible to tell from their website where this is located. I just assumed it was in the US at their home office. Their operation that is furthest south is in Phoenix at 33.5 degrees lat, and their other operations are even further north in Illinois and Pennsylvania. That skylight mullion can't be sloping more than 10 degrees down from horizontal. So that would put this in the tropics near the equator. If this is in the US then it is flawed. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carl Barbara Sabanski Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 2:39 PM To: Sundial Mailing List (E-mail) Subject: RE: Skylight Dial Sunny Day! I have looked at the photo of this sundial and it could actually be a functional sundial. It is New Years Eve and I could be a little hammered so I guess I could be wrong. Please let me know if I am. I have attached a photo of the sundial with the hour lines extended. They appear to join at an origin located at the top edge of the banner making this top edge the style. Looking closely at the vertical corner where the yellow and blue walls join it can be seen that the glass roof actually slopes down slightly. This would make the top edge of the banner, the style, slope down slightly. This slight slope would indicate that the building is probably located at lower latitude making the gnomon's height of a vertical sundial approach the vertical. This in turn would make the hour line angles almost equiangular or close enough to make them appear to be in such a photo. Also noon does not appear to be directly below the origin indicating that the hour lines have been corrected for longitude. But then again the thing could be just messed up. Then I would be wrong. I need another drink in that case! Happy Dialling! Carl Sabanski www.mysundial.ca Get Hooked on Gnomonics! RE: Skylight Dial John Carmichael Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:06:23 -0800 Hi Jim: I have never seen this sundial (term applied losely). I assume it's a south vertical dial since 12 noon is directly below the origin of the gnomon. I agree at first glance that the concept of using the mullion and a banner is interesting, and I like the color scheme, but I can't get over the fact that this dial is flawed in so many ways. Let's start with the the gnomon. I assume that the style is where the hourlines seem to converge if extended. It's hard to tell if it is supposed to be the top of the banner or the mullion. It certainly can't be the curved bottom of the banner. There is a gap between the bottom of the mullion and the top of the banner. What are we supposed to look at to tell the time? The shadow of the mullion, the projected light through gap, or the shadow of top of the banner? In any case, all three of them are wrong because they are produced from objects that are perpendicular to the dial face. The style should point downwards and be parallel to the polar axis. This is such a common mistake made with many south vertical wall dials made by incompetent designers. That flawed dial in Kansas City I mentioned yesterday also suffers from this. Then what's going on with those hour numerals? They are evenly spaced when then should be closer together at midday. Why don't you write them to find out who designed it and where it's located. I wonder if it's at their corporate headquarters. I might write them myself. I'm curious. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. Tallman Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 9:47 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Skylight Dial Hello All, Do we know anything about this sundial? It is featured on the cover of this company's product literature: http://www.trenwyth.com/ Notice the small banner underneath the mullion that serves as the style...it is a nice detail, I thought, an inexpensive way to shape the shadow and indicate which one to use. Happy New Years, everyone! Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Skylight Dial
Carl Barbara Sabanski wrote: I have attached a photo of the sundial with the hour lines extended. They appear to join at an origin located at the top edge of the banner making this top edge the style. Looking closely at the vertical corner where the yellow and blue walls join it can be seen that the glass roof actually slopes down slightly. It also looks to me as if the banner is not quite parallel to the mullion, but slopes a little more steeply. Hard to tell for sure, but I'm looking at the blue-sky gap... This would make the top edge of the banner, the style, slope down slightly. This slight slope would indicate that the building is probably located at lower latitude making the gnomon's height of a vertical sundial approach the vertical. One of Trenwyth's facilities is in Phoenix, AZ, so fairly far South. This in turn would make the hour line angles almost equiangular or close enough to make them appear to be in such a photo. Also noon does not appear to be directly below the origin indicating that the hour lines have been corrected for longitude. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Skylight Dial
Carl Barbara Sabanski wrote: Looking closely at the vertical corner where the yellow and blue walls join it can be seen that the glass roof actually slopes down slightly. I was taking a closer look at this, before I closed the image viewer. Looking at the blue tiled wall, it's clear that the slope is actually fairly significant. The angle of the photo makes it hard to be certain, as it distorts the tiles, but I would estimate the tiles to be pretty close to a 3:1 aspect ration (say 2x6 inches, etc.) Given that, and judging the nearly straight section where the roof intersects the wall, I count a rise of 5 1/2 tiles over a run of 3 tiles. 5.5 / (3*3) gives the tangent of 31.4 degrees, so puts the roof and style at 58.6 degrees from perpendicular to the dial face. Now, 31.4 *is* a couple of degrees south of Phoenix, into Sonora, MX, but if the banner slopes 2 degrees below the roof, it would be very hard to see in the photo. And the angle derived from the tile dimensions could hardly be called exact! (Hmm, what would be the effect of including the grout spacing?) OK, Excel to the rescue: Estimating tiles at 2x6, I threw in 1/4 grout line, and stuffed the formulas into Excel. The intention was to use Goal Seek to adjust the assumed grout thickness to get 33.4 degrees, and see if that was anything liek reasonable. With no tweaking, the 1/4 spacing yielded 33.24 degrees, just a couple miles south of central Phoenix! Dave --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Skylight Dial
As one who has an interest in skylight sundials, I complain that this is NOT one! For me, a skylight sundial must have the dial face ON THE SKYLIGHT. However, what this shows is the marvelous opportunities for providing interior sundials on an opaque surface rather than on windows. There are many such walls in daylighting shafts and sun rooms. Dave Bell has shown that the angle of the banner gnomon could be right for Phoenix. At least its top edge could be adjusted to be so. John has pointed out that something is wrong with the 12 mark. Unless the wall is reclining I would expect a vertical down from the banner parallel to the bricks. That should put the middle of the 12 and the noon mark more towards the center of the brick. More like the 1 of the numeral 12. Then there is the spacing of the hour marks . . . Nice discovery! Claude Hartman see my skylight sundial, dial 18 : http://www.advanceassociates.com/Sundials/Stained_Glass/sundials_EGP.html although outdoors above a patio, the dial face is on the shade cloth skylight I have since moved from that location but a recent visit showed the current owners maintain this Tove's Nest. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Skylight Dial
I found more details of this indoor wall dial. Go to: http://www.trenwyth.com/photo_gallery.asp?intPID=1startrec=73endrec=84 Image 82 of their Astra-Glaze photo gallery shows this to be located at Little Village Academy, Chicago, Illinois. This kind of defeats our guess at the latitude! The architects show many striking designs at their site, www.rbjarchitects.com I have sent an inquiry about the sundial. Happy New Year to all! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Skylight Dial
Thanks for that link to a still picture Claude. It was hard to see the photo on their Home page because it kept switching to a different photos in their slide show. Since it's in Chicago at about lat 52 degrees, then the gnomon should slope downwards from perpendicular (horizontal) by the same amount. It sure looks like it slants down much less than 52 degrees to me. Please let us know if they answer your inquiry. I still think it's flawed, but like everyone else, I love the concept of an interior wall dial illuminated by a skylight. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Claude Hartman Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 5:05 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Skylight Dial I found more details of this indoor wall dial. Go to: http://www.trenwyth.com/photo_gallery.asp?intPID=1startrec=73endrec=84 Image 82 of their Astra-Glaze photo gallery shows this to be located at Little Village Academy, Chicago, Illinois. This kind of defeats our guess at the latitude! The architects show many striking designs at their site, www.rbjarchitects.com I have sent an inquiry about the sundial. Happy New Year to all! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Skylight Dial
so - I agree it is wrong. Simple quiz - with the dial plate asis and the style some 20 degrees in error - what is the maximum error. Happy New Year to one and all. Simon John Carmichael wrote: Thanks for that link to a still picture Claude. It was hard to see the photo on their Home page because it kept switching to a different photos in their slide show. Since it's in Chicago at about lat 52 degrees, then the gnomon should slope downwards from perpendicular (horizontal) by the same amount. It sure looks like it slants down much less than 52 degrees to me. Please let us know if they answer your inquiry. I still think it's flawed, but like everyone else, I love the concept of an interior wall dial illuminated by a skylight. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Claude Hartman Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 5:05 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Skylight Dial I found more details of this indoor wall dial. Go to: http://www.trenwyth.com/photo_gallery.asp?intPID=1startrec=73endrec=84 Image 82 of their Astra-Glaze photo gallery shows this to be located at Little Village Academy, Chicago, Illinois. This kind of defeats our guess at the latitude! The architects show many striking designs at their site, www.rbjarchitects.com I have sent an inquiry about the sundial. Happy New Year to all! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Skylight Dial
Sunny Day! I would not be so hasty. This sundial is located in a 3 storey tower so the photograph may not necessarily depict it accurately. The second paragraph of the following page would indicate that some thought was given to the design of this sundial. http://www.aiachicago.org/special_features/1997_Design_Awards/DBA/Awards/Win ners/DBA_172.html Carl -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Simon [illustratingshadows Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 8:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: RE: Skylight Dial so - I agree it is wrong. Simple quiz - with the dial plate asis and the style some 20 degrees in error - what is the maximum error. Happy New Year to one and all. Simon John Carmichael wrote: Thanks for that link to a still picture Claude. It was hard to see the photo on their Home page because it kept switching to a different photos in their slide show. Since it's in Chicago at about lat 52 degrees, then the gnomon should slope downwards from perpendicular (horizontal) by the same amount. It sure looks like it slants down much less than 52 degrees to me. Please let us know if they answer your inquiry. I still think it's flawed, but like everyone else, I love the concept of an interior wall dial illuminated by a skylight. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Claude Hartman Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 5:05 PM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: Skylight Dial I found more details of this indoor wall dial. Go to: http://www.trenwyth.com/photo_gallery.asp?intPID=1startrec=73endrec=84 Image 82 of their Astra-Glaze photo gallery shows this to be located at Little Village Academy, Chicago, Illinois. This kind of defeats our guess at the latitude! The architects show many striking designs at their site, www.rbjarchitects.com I have sent an inquiry about the sundial. Happy New Year to all! --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Skylight Dial
It is now the end of a good year. It has been turbulent and eventful but life goes on. As I read these notes on the Skylight Dial I am somewhat bemused. Are we rushing to judgment on this design? Has anyone made the effort to unscrambled the perspective distortion in the picture? I am sure it can be done given time and the proper tools, both of which I lack. The tiles of a constant size on the wall will assist with the decoding. Don't speculate, calculate. I have no opinion as I have no facts and done nothing to determine the truth. If this firm did a simple proper design of a south facing declining dial to merit the awards, well good for them. If this feature on the cover of their design manual is a sham, do not trust the load bearing capacity of the structures they design. The true is determinable. This causes me to think of the old watch on my dresser. It may be like this sundial. The batteries are dead, but the watch still shows the correct time a couple of time a day. Even the date window is correct once a year. If I take it apart I am amazed at the simple complexity that has evolved to produce this watch. Silicon from ordinary sand has been structured into logic gates that fulfill the mechanical complexity of gears and wheels in the old style watch. An amazing design, how can it be. All it need is a soul, a tiny 1.2 volt battery, to demonstrate what a wonderful creation it is. Happy New Year, Roger Bailey - Original Message - From: John Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'J. Tallman' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; sundial@uni-koeln.de Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 10:04 AM Subject: RE: Skylight Dial Hi Jim: I have never seen this sundial (term applied losely). I assume it's a south vertical dial since 12 noon is directly below the origin of the gnomon. I agree at first glance that the concept of using the mullion and a banner is interesting, and I like the color scheme, but I can't get over the fact that this dial is flawed in so many ways. Let's start with the the gnomon. I assume that the style is where the hourlines seem to converge if extended. It's hard to tell if it is supposed to be the top of the banner or the mullion. It certainly can't be the curved bottom of the banner. There is a gap between the bottom of the mullion and the top of the banner. What are we supposed to look at to tell the time? The shadow of the mullion, the projected light through gap, or the shadow of top of the banner? In any case, all three of them are wrong because they are produced from objects that are perpendicular to the dial face. The style should point downwards and be parallel to the polar axis. This is such a common mistake made with many south vertical wall dials made by incompetent designers. That flawed dial in Kansas City I mentioned yesterday also suffers from this. Then what's going on with those hour numerals? They are evenly spaced when then should be closer together at midday. Why don't you write them to find out who designed it and where it's located. I wonder if it's at their corporate headquarters. I might write them myself. I'm curious. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. Tallman Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 9:47 AM To: sundial@uni-koeln.de Subject: Skylight Dial Hello All, Do we know anything about this sundial? It is featured on the cover of this company's product literature: http://www.trenwyth.com/ Notice the small banner underneath the mullion that serves as the style...it is a nice detail, I thought, an inexpensive way to shape the shadow and indicate which one to use. Happy New Years, everyone! Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
