Re: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar

2016-04-25 Thread Steve Lelievre 


Several of the mosaics mentioned in this discussion show the dial 
perched atop a pillar. In most cases they appear to be a little higher 
that head height. Is this an illusion arising from lack of perspective 
or differences of scale in different parts of the mosaics? Perhaps they 
intended as representations of large monumental dials that could be read 
from a distance? Or, is it how ordinary sized dials were actually 
installed? If so, what is the reason? Nowadays, most dials (except 
verticals) that I've encountered are placed low enough that most people 
are looking downwards at them to read the time.


Cheers,
Steve
49°13'16.3"N 123°07'08.9"W



On 2016-04-25 9:04 AM, Schechner, Sara wrote:

These are all really wonderful, Rob.  Thanks so much for drawing our attention 
to them.  And thanks to you, Lorenzo, for your remarks.

Sara J. Schechner
Altazimuth Arts
42°36'N   71° 22'W
West Newton, MA 02465
http://www.altazimutharts.com/

Sara J. Schechner, Ph.D.
David P. Wheatland Curator of the Collection of Historical Scientific 
Instruments
Lecturer on the History of Science
Department of the History of Science, Harvard University
Science Center 251c, 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
Tel: 617-496-9542   |   Fax: 617-496-5932
sche...@fas.harvard.edu |@SaraSchechner
http://scholar.harvard.edu/saraschechner
http://chsi.harvard.edu/



-Original Message-
From: History of Astronomy Discussion Group [mailto:hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu] 
On Behalf Of Gent, R.H. van (Rob)
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 5:40 AM
To: hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu
Subject: Re: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar

Hi Lorenzo,

Thanks for your insightful comments.

You can find better images of the Antioch (Antakya) mosaic here

http://www.uskinfo.ba/m/vijest/foto-pronaden-mozaik-s-porukom-budi-veseo-zivi-zivot-iz-3-stoljeca-prije-nove-ere/22031

A better image of the other sundial mosaic found in Daphne (Harbiye), also near 
Antioch, can be found here

http://www.hatayarkeolojimuzesi.gov.tr/HatayMuzeWeb/faces/jsp/layouts/inventoryCollectionDetail.jsp?inventoryid=3762

For accessing the complete high-resolution image, save the website (complete) 
and look in the folder saved with the html file.

The Hatay Archaeology Museum in Antakya has a website

http://www.hatayarkeolojimuzesi.gov.tr/HatayMuzeWeb/flash/main_EN.html

which gives digital access to numerous other interesting mosaics

http://www.hatayarkeolojimuzesi.gov.tr/HatayMuzeWeb/faces/jsp/layouts/search.jsp?Lang=en

The sundial mosaic is nr. 865.

Also of interest is nr. 949a-950 with a panel illustrating the story of Perseus 
and Andromeda.

More mosaics with a sundial on a pillar are here

http://michel.lalos.free.fr/cadrans_solaires/autres_pays/royaume_uni/cs_ile_de_wight.html

and here

http://www.electrummagazine.com/2011/11/platos-circle-in-the-mosaic-of-pompeii/

rvg


-Original Message-
From: History of Astronomy Discussion Group [mailto:hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu] 
On Behalf Of Lorenzo Smerillo
Sent: maandag 25 april 2016 10:44
To: hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu
Subject: Re: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar

Rob,
The dot enclosing a circle is very important as the MSS evidence (v.
Neugebauer and van Hoesen) is always of a circle with a little 'pointed cap' 
attached.  I am not certain that the iconographic convention of mosaicists and 
astronomical writers need be the same, nor if there is other papyrical or 
inscriptional evidence for either, both of which are perfectly legible and 
understandable in se. The usual convention was to write out (Elios or Sol.  But 
a representation of a man looking at a sundial would representationally take 
more naturally a pictograph of Sol, and a circle enclosing a dot does that 
nicely.
I think that the 'little cap' is actually a borrowing from the usual iconographic 
representations ( as on the parapegmata from the Thermae Trainai, Dura Europus, the 
Rheinisches Landesmuseum mould, the Arlon hebdomadal, ) of SOL as a head 
with three or four radii, using only one, for, perhaps, scribal convenience.

The inscription on

http://www.gettyimages.nl/detail/foto/mosaic-depicting-man-looking-at-sundial-from-ancient-stockfotos/98953317

enatEparE / lasen   ~   e(i)natE parElasen
I would  translate as 'it has reached the ninth(hour)' .

Newspapers, and Turkish newspapers in particular, have some difficulty with AD 
and BC dates, as 1.) they are translating sloppily and 2.) they are essentially 
ephemeral in their scope. So the dates of the Graeco-Roman mosaics are not BC 
as you point out!

feliciter.
Lorenzo Smerillo
Department of Classics and Humanities
Montclair State University
Montclair, NJ 07043

On 23 April 2016 at 11:15, Gent, R.H. van (Rob)  wrote:


Hi,

The following news items on some recently discovered mosaics in Turkey
may be of interest to the list.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/be-cheerful-live-your-life-ancient-mo
saic-meme-found-in-turkeys-south.aspx?PageID=238=98201=3
75

RE: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar

2016-04-25 Thread Schechner, Sara 
These are all really wonderful, Rob.  Thanks so much for drawing our attention 
to them.  And thanks to you, Lorenzo, for your remarks.

Sara J. Schechner
Altazimuth Arts
42°36'N   71° 22'W
West Newton, MA 02465
http://www.altazimutharts.com/

Sara J. Schechner, Ph.D. 
David P. Wheatland Curator of the Collection of Historical Scientific 
Instruments
Lecturer on the History of Science
Department of the History of Science, Harvard University
Science Center 251c, 1 Oxford Street, Cambridge, MA 02138
Tel: 617-496-9542   |   Fax: 617-496-5932 
sche...@fas.harvard.edu |@SaraSchechner
http://scholar.harvard.edu/saraschechner
http://chsi.harvard.edu/



-Original Message-
From: History of Astronomy Discussion Group [mailto:hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu] 
On Behalf Of Gent, R.H. van (Rob)
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 5:40 AM
To: hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu
Subject: Re: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar

Hi Lorenzo,

Thanks for your insightful comments.

You can find better images of the Antioch (Antakya) mosaic here 

http://www.uskinfo.ba/m/vijest/foto-pronaden-mozaik-s-porukom-budi-veseo-zivi-zivot-iz-3-stoljeca-prije-nove-ere/22031

A better image of the other sundial mosaic found in Daphne (Harbiye), also near 
Antioch, can be found here

http://www.hatayarkeolojimuzesi.gov.tr/HatayMuzeWeb/faces/jsp/layouts/inventoryCollectionDetail.jsp?inventoryid=3762

For accessing the complete high-resolution image, save the website (complete) 
and look in the folder saved with the html file. 

The Hatay Archaeology Museum in Antakya has a website

http://www.hatayarkeolojimuzesi.gov.tr/HatayMuzeWeb/flash/main_EN.html

which gives digital access to numerous other interesting mosaics

http://www.hatayarkeolojimuzesi.gov.tr/HatayMuzeWeb/faces/jsp/layouts/search.jsp?Lang=en

The sundial mosaic is nr. 865.

Also of interest is nr. 949a-950 with a panel illustrating the story of Perseus 
and Andromeda.

More mosaics with a sundial on a pillar are here

http://michel.lalos.free.fr/cadrans_solaires/autres_pays/royaume_uni/cs_ile_de_wight.html

and here

http://www.electrummagazine.com/2011/11/platos-circle-in-the-mosaic-of-pompeii/

rvg


-Original Message-
From: History of Astronomy Discussion Group [mailto:hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu] 
On Behalf Of Lorenzo Smerillo
Sent: maandag 25 april 2016 10:44
To: hastr...@listserv.wvu.edu
Subject: Re: [HASTRO-L] Mosaic with sundial on a pillar

Rob,
The dot enclosing a circle is very important as the MSS evidence (v.
Neugebauer and van Hoesen) is always of a circle with a little 'pointed cap' 
attached.  I am not certain that the iconographic convention of mosaicists and 
astronomical writers need be the same, nor if there is other papyrical or 
inscriptional evidence for either, both of which are perfectly legible and 
understandable in se. The usual convention was to write out (Elios or Sol.  But 
a representation of a man looking at a sundial would representationally take 
more naturally a pictograph of Sol, and a circle enclosing a dot does that 
nicely.
I think that the 'little cap' is actually a borrowing from the usual 
iconographic representations ( as on the parapegmata from the Thermae Trainai, 
Dura Europus, the Rheinisches Landesmuseum mould, the Arlon hebdomadal, ) of 
SOL as a head with three or four radii, using only one, for, perhaps, scribal 
convenience.

The inscription on

http://www.gettyimages.nl/detail/foto/mosaic-depicting-man-looking-at-sundial-from-ancient-stockfotos/98953317

enatEparE / lasen   ~   e(i)natE parElasen
I would  translate as 'it has reached the ninth(hour)' .

Newspapers, and Turkish newspapers in particular, have some difficulty with AD 
and BC dates, as 1.) they are translating sloppily and 2.) they are essentially 
ephemeral in their scope. So the dates of the Graeco-Roman mosaics are not BC 
as you point out!

feliciter.
Lorenzo Smerillo
Department of Classics and Humanities
Montclair State University
Montclair, NJ 07043

On 23 April 2016 at 11:15, Gent, R.H. van (Rob)  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The following news items on some recently discovered mosaics in Turkey 
> may be of interest to the list.
>
>
> http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/be-cheerful-live-your-life-ancient-mo
> saic-meme-found-in-turkeys-south.aspx?PageID=238=98201=3
> 75
>
>
> http://www.dailysabah.com/nation/2016/04/22/2400-year-old-mosaic-found
> -in-southern-turkey-says-be-cheerful-enjoy-your-life
>
> Although the mosaics are probably later than claimed in these popular 
> press reports, the most interesting part of these mosaics (the middle
> one) depicts what appears to be a hemispherical sundial on a pillar.
>
> Note that the Sun is indicated above the sundial as a circled dot.
>
> For a similar mosaic with a sundial (also found in Turkey), see
>
>
> http://www.gettyimages.nl/detail/foto/mosaic-depicting-man-looking-at-
> sundial-from-ancient-stockfotos/98953317
>
> rvg
>
---