Re: Re[2]: Leap Second Quiz Question

[Roger Bailey]

Hello Mike and all,

I expect the impoundment of water in hydro power reservoirs adds mass to 
northern hemisphere. This would effect the rotation of the earth adding a 
bit of wobble like an out of balance top. Perhaps this wobble could affect 
precession in the long run. Tidal power? Not so much as net storage of water 
is small, following the tides, up and down in a daily cycle.


One way to model tidal power is as an alternating inductive capacitance 
circuit. The resonance of that circuit can create large tidal ranges in 
specific basins like the Bay of Fundy with tides over 20 ft. A large tidal 
power project there would detune that resonance resulting in less power than 
expected and water surging towards Boston rather than Fundy. One study of 
the resonance predicted a rise in the tide level in Boston harbour by 10 cm 
(4"). I am quoting what I remember from a conversation with a tidal power 
expert about 15 years ago so my numbers may be off but resonance of tuned 
inductive capacitive circuits was the basis of the analysis.


"Time and Tide Wait for Gnomon"

Roger Bailey

--
From: 
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2017 7:20 AM
To: "Frank King" ; 
Subject: Re[2]: Leap Second Quiz Question


Frank wrote:
<>

I was at a talk recently by a guy who was promoting the use of tidal 
energy.

(You know what you are going to get every day was his main theme"

At the end he invited questions, so I asked if the generation of 
electricity by the use of tidal power would slow down the earth or moon.

He looked nonplussed.
I guess it might - comments welcomed.

Mike Shaw
53º21' N  3º02'W


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Re: Leap Second Quiz Question

[Richard Langley]

The angular momentum of the Earth-moon system has to be conserved, so if the 
Earth's rotation slows more, then the moon speeds up in its orbit and moves 
further away from the Earth. Currently, as a result of the ongoing secular 
deceleration of the Earth (due to tidal friction), the moon moves about 2 cm 
further away each year. This was confirmed by lunar laser ranging -- an area I 
worked in for my postdoctoral studies way back when. Tidal friction is a 
primary reason for leap seconds, to bring us full circle. This is what I wrote 
for the previous leap second:

http://www2.unb.ca/gge/Resources/LeapSecond2015.pdf


-- Richard Langley


-
| Richard B. LangleyE-mail: l...@unb.ca |
| Geodetic Research Laboratory  Web: 
http://gge.unb.ca  |
| Dept. of Geodesy and Geomatics EngineeringPhone:+1 506 453-5142   |
| University of New Brunswick   Fax:  +1 506 453-4943   |
| Fredericton, N.B., Canada  E3B 5A3|
|Fredericton?  Where's that?  See: 
http://www.fredericton.ca/
   |
-

From: sundial  on behalf of Dave Bell 

Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2017 2:24 PM
To: 'David'; sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: RE: Leap Second Quiz Question

Logically, tidal power should slow the Earth’s rotation.
Mechanical energy, imparted by the combined gravitation of the Sun and Moon is 
converted to electrical energy, then primarily dissipated as heat. Drag applied 
to the tidal surge must, to some extent, add drag to the Earth’s rotation.

Now, does the extracted energy also slow the Moon’s revolution about the Earth?

Dave

From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of David
Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2017 7:19 AM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: Leap Second Quiz Question

On 01/01/2017 12:30, Frank King wrote:

Dear All,



I hope you all enjoyed the extra second

in bed this morning and that your alarm

clock didn't go off one second early.



Here is an easy question to start off

the New Year...



Every Sunday at 08:00 I check the first

stroke of the hour-bell of the University

Clock against a radio-controlled UTC clock.



If it is slow I add coins to the tray on

the pendulum.  If it is fast I remove

coins.  My formula for the required

adjustment includes a figure for:



Last Week's Gain [LWG]



Here are my recent observations:



  25 December   clock 0.5 seconds fast

   1 Januaryclock 2.0 seconds fast



Is the appropriate figure for LWG:



a) 0.5 seconds

b) 1.5 seconds

c) 2.5 seconds



Frank



Frank H. King

Keeper of the University Clock

Cambridge, U.K.





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Dear Frank,

Happy New Year! I am sorry to hear that it starts with a problem for you albeit 
one of the horological kind, so that removes the pain.

I am somewhat puzzled, too.

You say:
Every Sunday at 08:00 I check the first stroke of the hour-bell of the 
University Clock against a radio-controlled UTC clock. If it is slow I add 
coins to the tray on the pendulum. If it is fast I remove coins.

Does the 'it' at the beginning of your second par. refer to the University 
clock?
If so, then if it is slow (i.e. rings after the UTC clock says it should), then 
its pendulum is too long (C.G. too low), so needs shortening. So coins need to 
be removed, not added. This assumes that the place where you add/remove the 
coins is below the current C.G.

As to the main question, between 25/12 and 1/1, the clock appears to have 
gained 1.5 s. But the UTC clock has added a second, so the University clock has 
gained only 0.5 s so the LWG is 0.5 s. In any case, if the clock has not been 
tampered with, it is unlikely that the University clock will have changed its 
previous LWG of 0.5 s to 1.5 or even 2.5 s in the space of a week. So I'll go 
for 0.5 s as the correct answer.
David.







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logo]


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RE: Leap Second Quiz Question

[Dave Bell]

Logically, tidal power should slow the Earth's rotation.

Mechanical energy, imparted by the combined gravitation of the Sun and Moon
is converted to electrical energy, then primarily dissipated as heat. Drag
applied to the tidal surge must, to some extent, add drag to the Earth's
rotation.

 

Now, does the extracted energy also slow the Moon's revolution about the
Earth?

 

Dave

 

From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of David
Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2017 7:19 AM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: Leap Second Quiz Question

 

On 01/01/2017 12:30, Frank King wrote:

Dear All,
 
I hope you all enjoyed the extra second
in bed this morning and that your alarm
clock didn't go off one second early.
 
Here is an easy question to start off
the New Year...
 
Every Sunday at 08:00 I check the first
stroke of the hour-bell of the University
Clock against a radio-controlled UTC clock.
 
If it is slow I add coins to the tray on
the pendulum.  If it is fast I remove
coins.  My formula for the required
adjustment includes a figure for:
 
Last Week's Gain [LWG]
 
Here are my recent observations:
 
  25 December   clock 0.5 seconds fast
   1 Januaryclock 2.0 seconds fast
 
Is the appropriate figure for LWG:
 
a) 0.5 seconds
b) 1.5 seconds
c) 2.5 seconds
 
Frank
 
Frank H. King
Keeper of the University Clock
Cambridge, U.K.
 
 
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Dear Frank,

Happy New Year! I am sorry to hear that it starts with a problem for you
albeit one of the horological kind, so that removes the pain.

I am somewhat puzzled, too. 

You say:

Every Sunday at 08:00 I check the first stroke of the hour-bell of the
University Clock against a radio-controlled UTC clock. If it is slow I add
coins to the tray on the pendulum. If it is fast I remove coins. 

Does the 'it' at the beginning of your second par. refer to the University
clock?
If so, then if it is slow (i.e. rings after the UTC clock says it should),
then its pendulum is too long (C.G. too low), so needs shortening. So coins
need to be removed, not added. This assumes that the place where you
add/remove the coins is below the current C.G.

As to the main question, between 25/12 and 1/1, the clock appears to have
gained 1.5 s. But the UTC clock has added a second, so the University clock
has gained only 0.5 s so the LWG is 0.5 s. In any case, if the clock has not
been tampered with, it is unlikely that the University clock will have
changed its previous LWG of 0.5 s to 1.5 or even 2.5 s in the space of a
week. So I'll go for 0.5 s as the correct answer.

David.



 

 

 

  _  


 
 

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. 
www.avast.com
  

 

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Re: Leap Second Quiz Question

[David]

On 01/01/2017 12:30, Frank King wrote:

Dear All,

I hope you all enjoyed the extra second
in bed this morning and that your alarm
clock didn't go off one second early.

Here is an easy question to start off
the New Year...

Every Sunday at 08:00 I check the first
stroke of the hour-bell of the University
Clock against a radio-controlled UTC clock.

If it is slow I add coins to the tray on
the pendulum.  If it is fast I remove
coins.  My formula for the required
adjustment includes a figure for:

 Last Week's Gain [LWG]

Here are my recent observations:

   25 December   clock 0.5 seconds fast
1 Januaryclock 2.0 seconds fast

Is the appropriate figure for LWG:

 a) 0.5 seconds
 b) 1.5 seconds
 c) 2.5 seconds

Frank

Frank H. King
Keeper of the University Clock
Cambridge, U.K.


---
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Dear Frank,

Happy New Year! I am sorry to hear that it starts with a problem for 
you albeit one of the horological kind, so that removes the pain.


I am somewhat puzzled, too.

You say:

/Every Sunday at 08:00 I check the first stroke of the hour-bell of 
the University Clock against a radio-controlled UTC clock. If it is 
slow I add coins to the tray on the pendulum. If it is fast I remove 
coins. /


Does the 'it' at the beginning of your second par. refer to the 
University clock?
If so, then if it is slow (i.e. rings after the UTC clock says it 
should), then its pendulum is too long (C.G. too low), so needs 
shortening. So coins need to be removed, not added. This assumes that 
the place where you add/remove the coins is below the current C.G.


As to the main question, between 25/12 and 1/1, the clock appears to 
have gained 1.5 s. But the UTC clock has added a second, so the 
University clock has gained only 0.5 s so the LWG is 0.5 s. In any 
case, if the clock has not been tampered with, it is unlikely that the 
University clock will have changed its previous LWG of 0.5 s to 1.5 or 
even 2.5 s in the space of a week. So I'll go for 0.5 s as the correct 
answer.

David.




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Re[2]: Leap Second Quiz Question

[jmikeshaw]

Frank wrote:
<>

I was at a talk recently by a guy who was promoting the use of tidal 
energy.

(You know what you are going to get every day was his main theme"

At the end he invited questions, so I asked if the generation of 
electricity by the use of tidal power would slow down the earth or moon.

He looked nonplussed.
I guess it might - comments welcomed.

Mike Shaw
53º21' N  3º02'W


---
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Re: Leap Second Quiz Question

[Frank King]

Dear All,

The voting pattern has swung away from
1.5s to 0.5s and we shall see whether
this trend continues!

There is an embellishment to Mike Shaw's
comment:

  The radio clock stopped for 1 second
  at midnight

This isn't quite what happens.  Indeed,
there seems not to be a general pattern.

The Definitive UTC Clock is more a
mathematical construct than a physical
object that ticks along with high
precision.  It (the construct) certainly
never stops and, during the night, it
ticked up:

  23:59:59   23:59:60   00:00:00

The formal representation of UTC midnight
is 00:00:00 and one second before that
(in this special case) is 23:59:60.  There
is a continuum of times in between, like
23:59:60.875

There are real clocks which can and do
display 23:59:60 but I don't own one.

The U.K. six-pip time signal extends
to seven pips and I have heard that.

The U.K. telephone-service speaking
clock gets it right too but only by
a fudge.  You hear:

  At the thiiird stroke...

with a bit of noise in "third"!

Ordinary domestic radio-controlled
clocks adjust themselves at some
convenient time later.  None of
mine had changed at 00:30 but all
had by changed by 07:00.

Given my special requirement, I
checked a radio-controlled clock
against the speaking clock before
I set out.  You can't trust radios
these days.  Most are digital and
give the six (or seven) pip signal
about 2.5s late.

The speaking clock is really two
clocks which normally run in
sync.  One is live and the other
is back-up.

When the clocks go forward or back
an hour, the two are set exactly an
hour apart and someone throws a
switch at the critical moment.
You don't hear any stutter in the
spoken words.

When the clocks go back one second
the same thing happens.  Someone
switches from one clock to the
other but in the middle of the
word "third".

Remember, the speaking clock
announces times which are
multiples of 5 seconds.  It
announces 23:59:55 and then
lets the next announcement
start running before the
switch is thrown.  The speaking
clock never announces 23:59:60.

I am a huge fan of leap seconds
and see no reason to change this
scheme until the earth starts
slowing down more than 2 seconds
a year.  All this wind power and
tidal power could accelerate that
happening!

Frank

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Re: Fw: Leap Second Quiz Question

[Richard Langley]

?Yes, perhaps 0.5 seconds is it. Last Sunday it was 0.5 seconds fast and Frank 
did something with the coins to change its rate. This Sunday it is 1 second 
fast, discounting the leap second. So, the clock gained an additional 0.5 
seconds in the week. Did I get it right this time? More/fewer coins needed? ;-)


-- Richard Langley


-
| Richard B. LangleyE-mail: l...@unb.ca |
| Geodetic Research Laboratory  Web: 
http://gge.unb.ca  |
| Dept. of Geodesy and Geomatics EngineeringPhone:+1 506 453-5142   |
| University of New Brunswick   Fax:  +1 506 453-4943   |
| Fredericton, N.B., Canada  E3B 5A3|
|Fredericton?  Where's that?  See: 
http://www.fredericton.ca/
   |
-

From: Patrick Vyvyan 
Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2017 9:54 AM
To: Richard Langley
Subject: Re: Fw: Leap Second Quiz Question

0.5 seconds for me!

It's not exactly the fault of your clock's mechanism that due to the foibles of 
the IERS, the rules of the game have been changed. Every time a government 
decides to apply or remove DST, for example, I doubt you would say the clock 
had gained or lost 60 minutes?


Patrick Vyvyan
Presidente
Corporación Cultural de Putaendo
[http://banners.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/banner/ban/wxBanner?bannertype=wxstnsticker_both=IVALPARA7]

On 1 January 2017 at 10:17, Richard Langley > 
wrote:
1.5 seconds? The clock is two seconds fast this morning due to its natural rate 
and the leap second. By the way, did anyone catch the seven pips live on BBC 
Radio 4 last night? Using the BBC's "listen again" feature, none of the other 
BBC radio stations carried the pips at midnight; they all (or mostly all) used 
Big Ben. And the listen again feature for Radio 4 just before midnight is a 
repeat of an earlier program when they announce the time as 5 p.m.!

-- Richard Langley

-
| Richard B. LangleyE-mail: 
l...@unb.ca |
| Geodetic Research Laboratory  Web: http://gge.unb.ca  |
| Dept. of Geodesy and Geomatics EngineeringPhone:+1 506 
453-5142   |
| University of New Brunswick   Fax:  +1 506 
453-4943   |
| Fredericton, N.B., Canada  E3B 5A3|
|Fredericton?  Where's that?  See: http://www.fredericton.ca/   |
-


From: sundial 
> on behalf 
of Frank King >
Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2017 8:30 AM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Leap Second Quiz Question

Dear All,

I hope you all enjoyed the extra second
in bed this morning and that your alarm
clock didn't go off one second early.

Here is an easy question to start off
the New Year...

Every Sunday at 08:00 I check the first
stroke of the hour-bell of the University
Clock against a radio-controlled UTC clock.

If it is slow I add coins to the tray on
the pendulum.  If it is fast I remove
coins.  My formula for the required
adjustment includes a figure for:

Last Week's Gain [LWG]

Here are my recent observations:

  25 December   clock 0.5 seconds fast
   1 Januaryclock 2.0 seconds fast

Is the appropriate figure for LWG:

a) 0.5 seconds
b) 1.5 seconds
c) 2.5 seconds

Frank

Frank H. King
Keeper of the University Clock
Cambridge, U.K.


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Re: Leap Second Quiz Question

[jmikeshaw]

Well I think I'll go for 0.5 seconds.

Frank's clock has apparently gained 1.5 seconds in the week.
The radio clock stopped for 1 second at midnight, but Frank's didn't and 
so gained 1 second.


Mike Shaw



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Fw: Leap Second Quiz Question

[Richard Langley]

1.5 seconds? The clock is two seconds fast this morning due to its natural rate 
and the leap second. By the way, did anyone catch the seven pips live on BBC 
Radio 4 last night? Using the BBC's "listen again" feature, none of the other 
BBC radio stations carried the pips at midnight; they all (or mostly all) used 
Big Ben. And the listen again feature for Radio 4 just before midnight is a 
repeat of an earlier program when they announce the time as 5 p.m.!

-- Richard Langley

-
| Richard B. LangleyE-mail: l...@unb.ca |
| Geodetic Research Laboratory  Web: http://gge.unb.ca  |
| Dept. of Geodesy and Geomatics EngineeringPhone:+1 506 453-5142   |
| University of New Brunswick   Fax:  +1 506 453-4943   |
| Fredericton, N.B., Canada  E3B 5A3|
|Fredericton?  Where's that?  See: http://www.fredericton.ca/   |
-


From: sundial  on behalf of Frank King 

Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2017 8:30 AM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Leap Second Quiz Question

Dear All,

I hope you all enjoyed the extra second
in bed this morning and that your alarm
clock didn't go off one second early.

Here is an easy question to start off
the New Year...

Every Sunday at 08:00 I check the first
stroke of the hour-bell of the University
Clock against a radio-controlled UTC clock.

If it is slow I add coins to the tray on
the pendulum.  If it is fast I remove
coins.  My formula for the required
adjustment includes a figure for:

Last Week's Gain [LWG]

Here are my recent observations:

  25 December   clock 0.5 seconds fast
   1 Januaryclock 2.0 seconds fast

Is the appropriate figure for LWG:

a) 0.5 seconds
b) 1.5 seconds
c) 2.5 seconds

Frank

Frank H. King
Keeper of the University Clock
Cambridge, U.K.


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Leap Second Quiz Question

[Frank King]

Dear All,

I hope you all enjoyed the extra second
in bed this morning and that your alarm
clock didn't go off one second early.

Here is an easy question to start off
the New Year...

Every Sunday at 08:00 I check the first
stroke of the hour-bell of the University
Clock against a radio-controlled UTC clock.

If it is slow I add coins to the tray on
the pendulum.  If it is fast I remove
coins.  My formula for the required
adjustment includes a figure for:

Last Week's Gain [LWG]

Here are my recent observations:

  25 December   clock 0.5 seconds fast
   1 Januaryclock 2.0 seconds fast

Is the appropriate figure for LWG:

a) 0.5 seconds
b) 1.5 seconds
c) 2.5 seconds

Frank

Frank H. King
Keeper of the University Clock
Cambridge, U.K.


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