Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
From: Mike Montour m...@mmontour.net Gothnet wrote: I still find it amazing that the FR doesn't charge when off and empty. Every phone (and every other portable device) I've ever owned does this. It's not even a software thing - there ought to be some direct hardware way to charge the battery from totally dead without the need to even start booting. The FR's power-management chip (PCF50633) can be configured to do this, but it's not as simple as you might think. One source of complexity is the USB standard, which requires devices to negotiate their power consumption with the host computer. Another complication is a brownout problem on some phones which prevents them from booting the CPU unless a battery is present. If you program the PCF50633 as: - charger enabled - 100mA current limit - do not wake on USB insertion (avoids the brownout issue) then it will have the behaviour that you want - even with a completely-dead battery, you can plug it in and it will slow-charge the battery in hardware. I think it still technically violates one of the USB standards by drawing current without talking to the host, but IMHO it's unlikely to cause any real-world problems. This, to me, would seem like the best solution to this issue. In fact, I'm suprised this isn't the default behavior of the power management chip. Is this something we can do? -Luke PS - Someone from OpenMoko was kind enough to work with me on the battery issue, but I'd like to prevent it in the future. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Mike Montour wrote: If you program the PCF50633 as: - charger enabled - 100mA current limit - do not wake on USB insertion (avoids the brownout issue) then it will have the behaviour that you want - even with a completely-dead battery, you can plug it in and it will slow-charge the battery in hardware. I think it still technically violates one of the USB standards by drawing current without talking to the host, but IMHO it's unlikely to cause any real-world problems. 1. This really ought to be default behaviour, the current way is really *really* bad. 2. Why stick to 100mA? I thought the USB standard was for ports to support 500mA? 3. I'm sure the FR doesn't need to negotiate with its charger. 4. How easy is it to make this change? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2117523.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick / pcf50633 defaults
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | | Mike Montour wrote: | If you program the PCF50633 as: | - charger enabled | - 100mA current limit | - do not wake on USB insertion (avoids the brownout issue) | | then it will have the behaviour that you want - even with a | completely-dead battery, you can plug it in and it will slow-charge the | battery in hardware. I think it still technically violates one of the | USB standards by drawing current without talking to the host, but IMHO | it's unlikely to cause any real-world problems. | | | 1. This really ought to be default behaviour, the current way is really | *really* bad. | | 2. Why stick to 100mA? I thought the USB standard was for ports to support | 500mA? | | 3. I'm sure the FR doesn't need to negotiate with its charger. | | 4. How easy is it to make this change? The issue is more complicated than this. pcf50633 has more than one level of hardcoded default actions, some registers get reset when you tell it to enter what it calls standby but we would more naturally call off, and more get reset again when the small backup battery that is also present on GTA02 becomes exhausted, called NOPOWER state. The real default settings for our variant that occur with NOPOWER forces the charger disabled. So if you stick your FR in a drawer, the main battery is exhausted, the backup battery goes down a day or whatever later, nothing that we did in previous session about charger status sticks, the charger is off. In addition, due to VB_SYS issue, we can't get easily get to the point of running any code on A5 to enable it without a loan from the battery to get us started. Sometimes the battery is in cutoff and does have some power in the cell, it's just disconnected from the terminals. That's when any kind of external kick will get us out of the hole. There is no violation of USB standards if you only pull 100mA, but another default set by going off even is that we pull 500mA from the USB host until the CPU can get started, and that is in violation. But since we can do nothing about it, and we didn't find a host that cares yet, it's OK. There's two interesting ideas from Mike though, one is that disable USB insert as ON will help by giving longer for VB_SYS to charge and the other is leave charger enabled. For both of these, they are defeated (USB insert is ON action, charger disabled) by NOPOWER and we have no control then. If the backup battery had not decayed, it could help, but it only has very partial impact and is not magically delivering the behaviour you want, GTA02 with this issue still will not start if left long enough for backup battery to fall below the pcf50633 threshold for NOPOWER. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkljdhIACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpvDgCfSK+d1rosyd0cJIrP2dcIvkgz yD0An1KMoTi57Z2oxRp0/8RrITsoPSF0 =LB9S -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Hi, On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Gothnet openm...@nastylittlehorse.net wrote: Mike Montour wrote: If you program the PCF50633 as: - charger enabled - 100mA current limit - do not wake on USB insertion (avoids the brownout issue) then it will have the behaviour that you want - even with a completely-dead battery, you can plug it in and it will slow-charge the battery in hardware. I think it still technically violates one of the USB standards by drawing current without talking to the host, but IMHO it's unlikely to cause any real-world problems. 1. This really ought to be default behaviour, the current way is really *really* bad. 2. Why stick to 100mA? I thought the USB standard was for ports to support 500mA? USB always allows for 100mA. This is how devices you plug into USB work in the first place (after all, they need to draw power to even be able to negotiate, right ?). However, anything _beyond_ 100mA needs to be negotiated with the host, _up to_ 500mA - but it is not guranteed that you get it; 100mA is guarenteed. So I agree: the default should be 100mA initially. 3. I'm sure the FR doesn't need to negotiate with its charger. 4. How easy is it to make this change? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2117523.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick / pcf50633 defaults
Andy Green wrote: There's two interesting ideas from Mike though, one is that disable USB insert as ON will help by giving longer for VB_SYS to charge and the other is leave charger enabled. For both of these, they are defeated (USB insert is ON action, charger disabled) by NOPOWER and we have no control then. If the backup battery had not decayed, it could help, but it only has very partial impact and is not magically delivering the behaviour you want, GTA02 with this issue still will not start if left long enough for backup battery to fall below the pcf50633 threshold for NOPOWER. So are you saying there's no way to reprogram the freerunner to be able to charge from a (completely) depleted battery? ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Ian Darwin i...@darwinsys.com wrote: There is no place that OM has said that the current *software* is ready for the masses. That's really mincing words... You're right, OM never said the software was ready for the masses, but FIC said the FreeRunner was consumer ready when it was selling it 8 months ago. That to me implied the hardware AND software were ready. But months later we're learning that *neither* is ready, and that both camps will probably drop support for the device before a stable, reliable platform develops. (As they've already done for the GTA01.) Happily I've never had to deal with this battery mess because my current phone is a Nokia 6230i, which uses the same battery as the FR. The 6230 can charge the batteries from dead, and never fully drains them to start with. Frankly I find it unacceptable that ANY phone would fully discharge it's battery, doubly so when it's hardware isn't capable of trickle charging it from a NOPOWER state. But rather than trying to fix this hardware issue in software, OM chose to change architectures *twice*, and is now focusing work on changes for as yet unreleased hardware, including the GTA03. Way to build a customer base folks... And what happens when this new hardware become vaporware as people realize the market has dried up? Do you really think during a recession that people are going to drop big bucks on a GTA03, with no major hardware changes, after the first two FAILED and have no support now? I'm pretty sure I'll have my GTA02 up on ebay within the week. It really sucks, since I WANT an open source phone with the features the Neo promised. It also sucks that I dropped a pretty penny on what was claimed to be consumer ready, and 8 months later am still using my 5 year old phone for daily use. I will very likely take a hit on reselling my Neo, but what's my other option? Hold on to it in the hopes that a stable platform emerges before OM totally stops support? And if it doesn't, how much do you think I could re-sell a custom phone for with that can't be used as a phone, has half finished unstable open source software, and absolutely no support? The worst part is that by making promises and not delivering, FIC and OM have set the open source movement back for phones. They've pretty much killed any chance of an open source phone being taken seriously any time soon unless it's backed by a huge company (like Android). Who's going to invest in the next private open source phone after reading how the GTA failed twice, and delivered non-functional multi-hundred dollar hockey pucks instead? Anyone want a GTA02v5? You get the whole box set, plus I'll throw in a stand alone battery charger and a 2G uSD card too boot. Make an offer. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Craig Woodward wrote: Ian Darwin i...@darwinsys.com wrote: There is no place that OM has said that the current *software* is ready for the masses. That's really mincing words... You're right, OM never said the software was ready for the masses, but FIC said the FreeRunner was consumer ready when it was selling it 8 months ago. That to me implied the hardware AND software were ready. But months later we're learning that *neither* is ready, and that both camps will probably drop support for the device before a stable, reliable platform develops. (As they've already done for the GTA01.) Happily I've never had to deal with this battery mess because my current phone is a Nokia 6230i, which uses the same battery as the FR. The 6230 can charge the batteries from dead, and never fully drains them to start with. Frankly I find it unacceptable that ANY phone would fully discharge it's battery, doubly so when it's hardware isn't capable of trickle charging it from a NOPOWER state. But rather than trying to fix this hardware issue in software, OM chose to change architectures *twice*, and is now focusing work on changes for as yet unreleased hardware, including the GTA03. Way to build a customer base folks... And what happens when this new hardware become vaporware as people realize the market has dried up? Do you really think during a recession that people are going to drop big bucks on a GTA03, with no major hardware changes, after the first two FAILED and have no support now? I'm pretty sure I'll have my GTA02 up on ebay within the week. It really sucks, since I WANT an open source phone with the features the Neo promised. It also sucks that I dropped a pretty penny on what was claimed to be consumer ready, and 8 months later am still using my 5 year old phone for daily use. I will very likely take a hit on reselling my Neo, but what's my other option? Hold on to it in the hopes that a stable platform emerges before OM totally stops support? And if it doesn't, how much do you think I could re-sell a custom phone for with that can't be used as a phone, has half finished unstable open source software, and absolutely no support? The worst part is that by making promises and not delivering, FIC and OM have set the open source movement back for phones. They've pretty much killed any chance of an open source phone being taken seriously any time soon unless it's backed by a huge company (like Android). Who's going to invest in the next private open source phone after reading how the GTA failed twice, and delivered non-functional multi-hundred dollar hockey pucks instead? Anyone want a GTA02v5? You get the whole box set, plus I'll throw in a stand alone battery charger and a 2G uSD card too boot. Make an offer. You accuse me of mincing words. Let's see if you'll stand by your words. If you really feel the device is that worthless, sell it to me for $10.00. Final offer. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Then he would be out 390 bucks, right? On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Ian Darwin i...@darwinsys.com wrote: You accuse me of mincing words. Let's see if you'll stand by your words. If you really feel the device is that worthless, sell it to me for $10.00. Final offer. -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick
Why wasn't this discussion held prior to releasing the Freerunner? Is the Freerunner a prototype? -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: GTA02 is now an expensive brick / pcf50633 defaults
bburdette wrote: Andy Green wrote: There's two interesting ideas from Mike though, one is that disable USB insert as ON will help by giving longer for VB_SYS to charge and the other is leave charger enabled. For both of these, they are defeated (USB insert is ON action, charger disabled) by NOPOWER and we have no control then. If the backup battery had not decayed, it could help, but it only has very partial impact and is not magically delivering the behaviour you want, GTA02 with this issue still will not start if left long enough for backup battery to fall below the pcf50633 threshold for NOPOWER. So are you saying there's no way to reprogram the freerunner to be able to charge from a (completely) depleted battery? That would seem to be the case. That it can charge when there's enough power to start booting, or it can trickle-charge when off (maybe, with some software modification) but that when it's been off for a couple of days you're out of luck. BIG. DESIGN. FLAW. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/GTA02-is-now-an-expensive-brick-tp2109541p2120169.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
[2008.12] ssh instability
i'm having a lot of problems with my ssh connection over usb - it usually takes several attempts to connect, and will hang mid-way through operations very often sometimes un-plugging and re-plugging usb will sort it, sometimes leaving it for a minute or two, or suspending and resuming. sometimes it takes a reboot is this a known problem with the release, or more likely some specific problem here? it worked great with 2008.9, i never had a single problem thanks ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
