Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions
this is intentionally 'randomised', > >> some people seem to prefer that for normal (non-binaural) listening. > >> It's quite simple to test: listen to a mono signal. If the responses > >> are well matched you should get a solid image dead center. If not, > >> even a mono signal will be somewhat 'diffuse'. This is called the > >> 'Tonmeister test' in some circles :-) > >> > >> The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response' > >> to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is > >> that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that > >> is not the case. What remains is a fixed effect that can be removed > >> by normal equalisation or as part of the design. > >> > >> Ciao, > >> > >> -- > >> FA > >> > >> ___ > >> Sursound mailing list > >> Sursound@music.vt.edu > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > >> edit account or options, view archives and so on. > >> > > > > > > -- Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com Business website: www.magikdoor.net +44(0)7555784775 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200623/501799a9/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions
hase/delay response is matched between the > > > two sides. For some headphones this is intentionally 'randomised', > > > some people seem to prefer that for normal (non-binaural) listening. > > > It's quite simple to test: listen to a mono signal. If the responses > > > are well matched you should get a solid image dead center. If not, > > > even a mono signal will be somewhat 'diffuse'. This is called the > > > 'Tonmeister test' in some circles :-) > > > > > > The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response' > > > to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is > > > that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that > > > is not the case. What remains is a fixed effect that can be removed > > > by normal equalisation or as part of the design. > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > -- > > > FA > > > > > > ___ > > > Sursound mailing list > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > > > > > -- > > Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com > > Business website: www.magikdoor.net > > +44(0)7555784775 > > -- next part -- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ > attachments/20200623/134ac289/attachment.html > > > > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ > attachments/20200623/54ea847d/attachment.html> > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com Business website: www.magikdoor.net +44(0)7555784775 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200623/58dd0453/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions
ct that can be removed >> by normal equalisation or as part of the design. >> >> Ciao, >> >> -- >> FA >> >> ___ >> Sursound mailing list >> Sursound@music.vt.edu >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, >> edit account or options, view archives and so on. >> > > -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200623/b5420332/attachment.asc> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions
If your headphones are equalised for your pinnae, then this is surely negated? As you aren't moving your headphones, then it shouldn't be a problem, as they are on axis and your hrtf will remain static, (or non existent with eq). I can anecdotally confirm what Fons mentioned. I have many different flavours of earbuds, closed and open headphones, and by far the best outer head binaural experience, is with my open back ones. This is without custom eq for my ears, but with a generic flattening eq, which really improves the effect. I can imagine it would improve massively using hrtf for my own ears, convolved with eq to flatten the response of both my pinnae and headphones.. Best Steve On Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 21:24 Augustine Leudar, wrote: > "The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response' > to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is > that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that > is not the case. " > > Well except the headphones do have a direction if they are outside your > Pinnae - in the case of my HD6000s the driver is about 2 cm outside my > pinnae in the middle of my ear so they would have whatever the HRTF is for > being close to / next to your ear, in the same way, I guess a mosquito has > when it flies close to your ear can be localised as it flies past the same > position, admittedly that is a moving object unlike headphones ... it would > interesting to see if there are any papers/listening tests which have > tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are > there any ? > > On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 09:26, Fons Adriaensen wrote: > > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:12:38PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote: > > > > > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards > > working > > > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I > have a > > > calibrated system, room treatment etc > > > > > I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s > > > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones > > may > > > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna > filtering > > > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds > > > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are > > just > > > left with the HRTFs > > > > In may experience binaural works best with open headphones. Earbuds have > > a very strong occlusion effect, and there is experimental evidence that > > this prevents externalisation. > > > > Occlusion means that the acoustic impedance as seen by the ear is changed > > by being in a closed volume. It's why you hear your own voice much > stronger > > when you close the ear canal. > > > > It is possible to remove occlusion even with closed headphones, but this > > requires active systems. Noise cancellation using feedback from within > > the headphone will do this to some degree as a side effect. Feedforward > > systems don't. This is an area of active research (in which I'm > involved). > > > > That said, there's a lot of difference in binaural performance even > > among high quality open headphones. One factor that seems to have an > > influence is how well the phase/delay response is matched between the > > two sides. For some headphones this is intentionally 'randomised', > > some people seem to prefer that for normal (non-binaural) listening. > > It's quite simple to test: listen to a mono signal. If the responses > > are well matched you should get a solid image dead center. If not, > > even a mono signal will be somewhat 'diffuse'. This is called the > > 'Tonmeister test' in some circles :-) > > > > The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response' > > to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is > > that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that > > is not the case. What remains is a fixed effect that can be removed > > by normal equalisation or as part of the design. > > > > Ciao, > > > > -- > > FA > > > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > -- > Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com > Business website: www.magikdoor.net > +44(0)7555784775 > -- next part -- &
Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions
usiness website: www.magikdoor.net > > +44(0)7555784775 > > -- next part -- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200619/3f292145/attachment.html > > > > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200619/d7101979/attachment.html > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com Business website: www.magikdoor.net +44(0)7555784775 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200623/7b5f0f66/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions
"The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response' to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that is not the case. " Well except the headphones do have a direction if they are outside your Pinnae - in the case of my HD6000s the driver is about 2 cm outside my pinnae in the middle of my ear so they would have whatever the HRTF is for being close to / next to your ear, in the same way, I guess a mosquito has when it flies close to your ear can be localised as it flies past the same position, admittedly that is a moving object unlike headphones ... it would interesting to see if there are any papers/listening tests which have tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are there any ? On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 09:26, Fons Adriaensen wrote: > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:12:38PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote: > > > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards > working > > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I have a > > calibrated system, room treatment etc > > > I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s > > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones > may > > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna filtering > > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds > > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are > just > > left with the HRTFs > > In may experience binaural works best with open headphones. Earbuds have > a very strong occlusion effect, and there is experimental evidence that > this prevents externalisation. > > Occlusion means that the acoustic impedance as seen by the ear is changed > by being in a closed volume. It's why you hear your own voice much stronger > when you close the ear canal. > > It is possible to remove occlusion even with closed headphones, but this > requires active systems. Noise cancellation using feedback from within > the headphone will do this to some degree as a side effect. Feedforward > systems don't. This is an area of active research (in which I'm involved). > > That said, there's a lot of difference in binaural performance even > among high quality open headphones. One factor that seems to have an > influence is how well the phase/delay response is matched between the > two sides. For some headphones this is intentionally 'randomised', > some people seem to prefer that for normal (non-binaural) listening. > It's quite simple to test: listen to a mono signal. If the responses > are well matched you should get a solid image dead center. If not, > even a mono signal will be somewhat 'diffuse'. This is called the > 'Tonmeister test' in some circles :-) > > The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response' > to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is > that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that > is not the case. What remains is a fixed effect that can be removed > by normal equalisation or as part of the design. > > Ciao, > > -- > FA > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com Business website: www.magikdoor.net +44(0)7555784775 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200623/134ac289/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
