Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
On 2023-03-08, Steven Boardman wrote: I would love to make a sound do a death spiral motion . As would I. So let's make one. The thing is that it would have to be slowly elevating, stereophonic. Very slowly, because you don't really *understand* a graveyard spiral before you die. Any music of this ilk would have to reflect...it. This spiral. With an LFO, Definitely not to be heard. on each axis, Yes, but do you even know how it's heard? I obviously do. bit a load of doppler, distance attenuation and filtering, i think i could kill the thread quite quickly Over SSB demodulation you probably could not hear any of that. Not unless you were talking with an orbital module, crashing down. Doppler modulation isn't much of a problem unless you do wideband digital thingies, at about fighter jet speeds. Transsonic to something like 2 Mach, changing all the time, fast, and in angle, so that the antenna doesn't track well either. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3751464, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
[Sursound] [ot] off-radio
On 2023-03-08, Eero Aro wrote: Chris Woolf wrote: Anyone any ideas how one could provide an audio horizon that could be a mimic of the gyro artificial horizon? A vague thought, that applies only to a small amount of surround sound recordings. [...] I also maybe should say, as a vague thought, many of the early and still extant aeronatical radio thingies do just this. The nondirectional beacons spell out their identities in slow Morse code. Typical instrument landing systems, even if they're decoded digitally by now, originally were designed to be listened to by ear. Both laterally and vertically; if you listen to them by ear, you actually *can* still fly by it. I do mostly nature recordings and record also in urban areas, where the distant traffic hum is always present. Ever heard what happens when you get an inversion layer, so that there's suddenly a vertical component to the soundfield? Because it does happen, from time to time. Around here in Finland, it often happens in the summer over our many lakes. The inversion layer over the lake beams sound for miles/kilometres on end, and since it does so, you'll have a stark Z-component upon reception, even if you sent it as a purely cylindrical wave. (Rarely do you do that even, since pantophonic isn't right cylindrical to begin with. And then, no antenna or microphone array really does either right pantophony or periphony.) The hum can be heard as a horizontal noise somewhere in the distance. Now this is rather interesting. "The hum?" Tell me more, what is this "hum" all about? Here in the north the distant traffic noise is also different in the winter and in the summer. We use studded tyres in the cars and they cause more high frequencies in the noise than unstudded tyres. Sounds pretty much like what our tyres here in Finland do, in noise. Though, is it really the same? Another thing that changes the sound scene in the winter is snow, it makes the general acoustics more dry and then it is easier to detect the direction of single sound sources. I'd argue snow attenuates single sound sources, and so makes easier to multilaterate them from a distance. But if you try to measure the sound source which is a tyre pressing on snow, it's almost im*possibly* nonlinear of a source. It really is. Just do a high order Volterra series minded correlation between what a driven tyre does, and how it sounds. Especially on show, ice, and gravelled now. It's almost stupidly nonlinear, and how it skids, can take almost half a minute to die down. The analysis of such a thing is even as of now almost impossible to do, optimally. The problem is that a constant wide spectrum noise (the traffic hum) is more difficult to localize than signals that have transient content. True. If you want to localize the stuff. But then at the same time, you can localize noise better than any impulse, by averaging it in time. Here we even have information theoretical optimality theorems to bear. Having said that, we _do_ localize an above flying jetplane, although it produces a noise type sound. We know from experience, that an aeroplane almost always is flying above us. Yes. We have our neural circuits, and then many of the deep learning circuits of today do the precice same thing. However, the reason we (and then the deep learning AI circuit) is not just about a "noise type sound". What happens is that our hearing does wideband, even Doppler analysis. We just hear, via all of that noise, how things move, and even parts of what they *are*, as *initial emitters of sound*. We're just that good, as the best of mammals. But are we actively aware of the fact, that distant traffic hum appears as a zone above the horizon. Are we, though? I tend to be aware of such things, but most of the time I still can't tend to anything horizontal. And then, when I *can*, suddenly it's the vertical axis I can't tend to. Also, it would be somewhat strange to put artificially some kind of signal "beacons" at the horizon level around the listener, because they aren't part of the actual recording. In the radio amateur circuit this has been done, in so many ways. In fact in right "beacons", as on WSPR and such. There *is* the idea of QRP radiofinding, as a sport, and who knows whatelse. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3751464, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
On 2023-03-08, Marc Lavallée wrote: The article is freely available here: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20080042307 Fuck. What the actual fuck, right here. You just returned to audiditory stuff, and showed how a blind pilot could return from a graveyard spiral, by ear. I *certainly* didn't know something like this would be possible. Jesu Kristu, this is just...wrong. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3751464, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
:-D *Pan Athen* SoundFellas <https://soundfellas.com/>, *MediaFlake Ltd <http://mediaflake.com/>* Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 10:55 PM Steven Boardman wrote: > Hopefully it would mislead any sursounders from talking about aviation > here, and kill this thread dead 藍 > > On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, 15:07 Panos Kouvelis, wrote: > > > Distance, or in general virtual acoustics, is a good idea. Alternating > > between early/late reflections, air damping, level, and even Doppler for > > speed of movement could help with this sonification. > > > > I'm no expert in aviation, but would this help the brain of the pilots or > > mislead them as to what is happening? > > > > *Pan Athen* > > SoundFellas <https://soundfellas.com/>, *MediaFlake Ltd > > <http://mediaflake.com/>* > > Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:44 PM Steven Boardman < > boardroomout...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > I would love to make a sound do a death spiral motion . > > > With an LFO, on each axis, bit a load of doppler, distance attenuation > > and > > > filtering, i think i could kill the thread quite quickly.... > > > > > > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230309/480e74eb/attachment.htm > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230310/01b4ebe9/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
Hopefully it would mislead any sursounders from talking about aviation here, and kill this thread dead 藍 On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, 15:07 Panos Kouvelis, wrote: > Distance, or in general virtual acoustics, is a good idea. Alternating > between early/late reflections, air damping, level, and even Doppler for > speed of movement could help with this sonification. > > I'm no expert in aviation, but would this help the brain of the pilots or > mislead them as to what is happening? > > *Pan Athen* > SoundFellas <https://soundfellas.com/>, *MediaFlake Ltd > <http://mediaflake.com/>* > Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:44 PM Steven Boardman > wrote: > > > I would love to make a sound do a death spiral motion . > > With an LFO, on each axis, bit a load of doppler, distance attenuation > and > > filtering, i think i could kill the thread quite quickly > > > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230309/480e74eb/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] about aviation [ot]
uld you have to "recover" from the spiral? You need to see which attitude you're at. You will need to put slight ailerons in the opposite diretion. You'd be falling and you'd need to follow your airspeed. If too much, you'd have to even spoil. If not, you'd need to increase thrust in order to gain kinetic energy. In any case, you'd want to keep yourself at about 160-200 knots of equivalent speed and so kinetic energy, in order to stabilize the aircraft, and then level off. I read this before, btw: "But whoever cares, really? We should. Because none of us wants to drive an aircraft into the ground, or a mountain. We all know what we're talking about. I know. Do we all? Especially when you have to use the instrument in order to deliver yourself and your passengers from a death spiral." One of these things really is the death spiral. The thing here is that you don't *feel* at *all* that you're in it. It's kind of like the barrel roll, at one G. It's just a manoeuvre or a mistake, which feels like nothing bad is happening. Yet if you don't follow your instrumentation, you might be going into a death spiral. (This is why the synthetic horizon in an airplane *is*. You're supposed, as a pilot, to follow it, precisely *because* when it isn't level while you feel level, *then* you're off in your feelings. You might be going into a dive or spiral, and you're supposed to fly by meters/instrumentation, not by your seat. So what is this spiral? A situation when the plane is spinning, even a stall (interruption of air flow), or what else? The typical death spiral isn't a stall at first at all. Rather it's a continuously advancing bank to either side of the airplane. As a pilot, you won't feel it happening, because the airplane is intrinsically stable by design. Even if you go into that bank, you'll just feel 1G of acceleration towards the floor. However, now the floor might be at 15, 30, 45, 60, 90, and eventually even 180 degrees from upright. Before you even know it. And when you go even half there, think about the lift your wings give you: going to 90 degrees, you suddenly have no horizontal lift at all. You will sink. You might not lose control right yet, but you will be in a situation which needs fast correction manoeuvres if you don't want to run into terrain. And you typically don't know that you have this problem, because you feel like you're in level flight, even if you're factually falling out of the sky. I've never flown a plane. But I'm a nerd to try to fly one. In here, I've taken heed of instrument flying rules, the synthetic horizon, and all of them accidents which have happened over the years. I know how airplanes behave, and just, *just*, in theory, I might even be able to land one or at least control one. Because I *do* know what these things have, their basic controls, airbrakes, thrust reversers, autopilots (two of them on Boeings, better yet on an AirBus), all of the usual stuff. Then I'd have to still tell you what the death spiral really is. Because it's a about bank and losing lift by it. You'll never feel it as a pilot, because se airframe will keep you at 1G downwards. What happens is that you'll bank, and you'll progressively start to lose lift, making your way sideways. You'll lose altitude, without even knowing you drop as fuck, continuously. Your situational awareness is bunk, and you only have a nigh minute now to recover; if you go into this, you can crash straight down in a minute, without knowing you'd done it, especially coming down through a clowd cover. You might find yourself coming straight down at over Mach 1, without ever having thought to do so. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_disorientation I think there is another name for this as well. ) A 'spiral', very different from any spin, was mentioned, and Sampo seemed to think that recovery from that would require regaining speed. Take rapid suceeding accelerations against your XY and then XZ planes. That will feel much worse than one of either. When done harsly, it might lead to unconsciousness, or even permanent physical injury. Because of the "spiral". -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-40-3751464, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list surso...@music.vt.eduhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. - Fim da mensagem de Sampo Syreeni - -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230309/64167b6b/attachment.htm> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] [off-topic] Spirals
don't then pull up the yoke too > > >>>>> fast in > > >>>>> order to break the airframe. At max do something like a "gentle" 5g > > >>>>> curve, and if you then manage to not crash into the terrain, level > > >>>>> off > > >>>>> and apply some spoiling. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Ah, you too think about this. Hmm. 8) > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> To recover: > > 1. Reduce power to idle. > > >>>>> Preferably as soon as you know you're losing altitude. Because > > >>>>> you'll be > > >>>>> trading potential energy for kinetic energy/speed from the get go. > > >>>>> This > > >>>>> is also why I mentioned fighter jets and dog fighting from the get > > >>>>> go: > > >>>>> that energy count-down (or up) is how dogfighting has been counted > > >>>>> from > > >>>>> the start. It's how dogfights are won, and the energy management is > > >>>>> also > > >>>>> how planes are either crashed or landed safely. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>> 2. Bring the wings level. This has to be done gently, to avoid > even > > >>>>>>> more mechanical stress. > > >>>>> Yes. However, this is difficult to do once you went into spatial > > >>>>> disorientation, your synthetic horizon is at something like 120 > > >>>>> degrees, > > >>>>> and you descend at a about a five kilometres per minute, from an > > >>>>> altitude of, say, a generous ten thousand feet. Within a thick > cloud > > >>>>> cover, with all of your instruments yelling at you at the same > time. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>> 3. As the wings return to level, the excessive speed will put the > > >>>>>>> aircraft into a steep climb. > > >>>>> What is "level", here? In a death spiral, the optimum recovery will > > >>>>> take > > >>>>> you through a route where you'll *definitely* not be level. Your > nose > > >>>>> will be looking down, at an airspeed which is *way* over your > craft's > > >>>>> design limits. That will also take place well after you can > > >>>>> laterally, > > >>>>> in ailerons, balance the aircraft; as such, even a very little > > >>>>> take on > > >>>>> the ailerons, or the rudder, the yoke, would immediately either > stall > > >>>>> some control surface, or made better, tear each of them apart. And > > >>>>> you > > >>>>> don't really know what is "level" hear, either; even your > > >>>>> instrumentation is probably fucked up already; believe you me, no > > >>>>> inertial thingy ever survives the kind of vibration an aircraft > > >>>>> induces > > >>>>> on itself when put into a multiple g's acceleration, combined with > a > > >>>>> wide stall. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>> Let it happen but keep the pitch angle under control. > > >>>>> Exactly so. "Let it happen." Many of the worst accidents on record > > >>>>> have > > >>>>> happened because pilots fought their planes, instead of "going > > >>>>> with the > > >>>>> flow" which a plane, designed to be statically stable from the > start, > > >>>>> would have done by itself. For example, (ya'll, prolly not Fons) > > >>>>> take a > > >>>>> look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation . > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>> You will regain some of the lost altitude, and airspeed will > > >>>>>>> decrease. > > >>>>> Recovery from a near miss death spiral is still more involved. > > >>>>> Because > > >>>>> you might have to operate the aircraft at structural load, and do a > > >>>>> recovery from a prolonged stall over all of the airframe. You might > > >>>>> actually have to "fly" your airframe over a minute in a full stall > > >>>>> over > > >>>>> every part of it, and then try to regain aerodynamic control. > "After > > >>>>> sinking, flying, and shaking like a rock from a cannon." > > >>>>> > > >>>>> It can be done. But nobody teaches you how to do this, and in > fact, I > > >>>>> don't know of *one* algorithm which has flown this route. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> 4. As you approach normal airspeed, bring back power and level > off. > > >>>>> That should be obvious, then. It's that third stage before "Profit" > > >>>>> which always slights the eye. ;) > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Ciao, > > >>>>> Moro. > > >>>>> -- > > >>>>> Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front > > >>>>> +358-40-3751464 <http://decoy.iki.fi/front+358-40-3751464>, 025E > > D175 > > >>>>> ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 > > >>>>> ___ > > >>>>> Sursound mailing list > > >>>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu > > >>>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > >>>>> here, > > >>>>> edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > >>>>> > > >>>> -- next part -- > > >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > >>>> URL: > > >>>> < > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/988a2b84/attachment.htm > > > > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> ___ > > >>>> Sursound mailing list > > >>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu > > >>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > >>>> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > >>> ___ > > >>> Sursound mailing list > > >>> Sursound@music.vt.edu > > >>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > >>> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > >> ___ > > >> Sursound mailing list > > >> Sursound@music.vt.edu > > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > >> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > >> -- next part -- > > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > >> URL: > > >> < > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/3142cd19/attachment.htm > > > > > >> ___ > > >> Sursound mailing list > > >> Sursound@music.vt.edu > > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > >> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > ___ > > > Sursound mailing list > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20230308/a8636367/attachment.htm > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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