Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
Martin Leese wrote: Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote: Is there a way to get a personalized HRTF (or even one near mine) with out spending many hundreds of the coins of your choice or travelling to a distant destination? No but, if the Microsoft stuff works out, there might be. Is there a standard format for HRTFS that can be used in several softwares or even converted? The answer is, again, no. However, to state the obvious, if HRTFs are going to fly then there needs to be. Is this a task for the AES and/or the EBU? Or is it a task for the ISO/IEC/Mpeg? Looks like... AES: Is not really a standard body . EBU: Like ATSC, they simply might reuse what the Mpeg does. Best, Stefan To continue stating the obvious, most audio-only listening currently takes place using ear-buds plugged into players or phones. This doesn't look like it is going to change anytime soon. Binaural with personalized HRTFs would improve this listening experience. Regards, Martin ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
Markus Noisternig wrote: Dear Richard and Sursounders, The AES-X212 Spatial acoustic data file format standardizes a file format to exchange HRTF data. The format is designed to be extendable to represent any space-related data, such as spatial room impulse responses (SRIR) measured with multichannel microphone and loudspeaker arrays. It builds upon the spatially oriented format for acoustics (SOFA) and has the filename extension sofa. I stand (maybe) corrected. http://www.aes.org/standards/meetings/init-projects/aes-x212-init.cfm This is not a finished project/format yet, or is it? Best, Stefan The AES-X212 Task Group Draft got approved by the AES-SC earlier this year. I am currently working on the final edits and we should get the standard published within the next few weeks. An application-programming interface (API) with similar calls for various programming languages (Matlab, Octave, C++) and for different computer platforms is available online at http://www.sofaconventions.org as well as on http://sourceforge.net/projects/sofacoustics. The API provides functionality to create, read, and write SOFA files. The SOFA website already hosts source materials from different HRTF databases. Please note that these data are encoded using a beta version of the AES-X212 format. Best Regards, Markus On 23 juin 2014, at 19:47, Richard Dobson richarddob...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I think the AES already has a project to define a file format for htrfs; when I get home I can find the project code. Richard Dobson Sent from my iPhone On 23 Jun 2014, at 17:43, Martin Leese martin.le...@stanfordalumni.org wrote: Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote: Is there a way to get a personalized HRTF (or even one near mine) with out spending many hundreds of the coins of your choice or travelling to a distant destination? No but, if the Microsoft stuff works out, there might be. Is there a standard format for HRTFS that can be used in several softwares or even converted? The answer is, again, no. However, to state the obvious, if HRTFs are going to fly then there needs to be. Is this a task for the AES and/or the EBU? To continue stating the obvious, most audio-only listening currently takes place using ear-buds plugged into players or phones. This doesn't look like it is going to change anytime soon. Binaural with personalized HRTFs would improve this listening experience. Regards, Martin -- Martin J Leese E-mail: martin.leese stanfordalumni.org Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
Stefan Schreiber wrote: Markus Noisternig wrote: Dear Richard and Sursounders, The AES-X212 Spatial acoustic data file format standardizes a file format to exchange HRTF data. The format is designed to be extendable to represent any space-related data, such as spatial room impulse responses (SRIR) measured with multichannel microphone and loudspeaker arrays. It builds upon the spatially oriented format for acoustics (SOFA) and has the filename extension sofa. I stand (maybe) corrected. http://www.aes.org/standards/meetings/init-projects/aes-x212-init.cfm This is not a finished project/format yet, or is it? Best, Stefan The AES-X212 Task Group Draft got approved by the AES-SC earlier this year. I am currently working on the final edits and we should get the standard published within the next few weeks. Ok, I read this later. :-[ What about (echoic) BRTF/BRIR data sets? Are these already included/supported? Best, Stefan An application-programming interface (API) with similar calls for various programming languages (Matlab, Octave, C++) and for different computer platforms is available online at http://www.sofaconventions.org as well as on http://sourceforge.net/projects/sofacoustics. The API provides functionality to create, read, and write SOFA files. The SOFA website already hosts source materials from different HRTF databases. Please note that these data are encoded using a beta version of the AES-X212 format. Best Regards, Markus ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
Is there a way to get a personalized HRTF (or even one near mine) with out spending many hundreds of the coins of your choice or travelling to a distant destination? Is there a standard format for HRTFS that can be used in several softwares or even converted? I am partly involved in the effort to create the standard way to listen to FOA (at least) with headphones and Headtracking, and getting it included in the version of the MPEG standard. Bosse -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham Sent: den 21 juni 2014 23:19 To: Michael Chapman; Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] And now for something different... I have to be fair - this was my colleague Tony Tew from the Department of Electronics that was in charge of this... Dave On 21 June 2014 21:12, Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com wrote: Dave Malham wrote: Oh, for cryin' out loud. Makes you want to weep - Microsoft reinventing again what's already been done and (most of) the rest of the world believing they're the originators... I am no fan of Microsoft, but this seems a little harsh. Quickly producing an approximate personalized HRTF using only head and shoulders is new, and potentially useful. 'harsh' about M$ ... I only wish I had Douglas Adams' words to hand ... IIRC years ago there was a student project, IIRC it was York (in which case Dave is being modest), and (I hyberbolise) the project was the tech side for a concept to cover the country with Tardi (?Tardises): You went in, put two pennies in slot A, pushed button B, and out popped your HRTF. We could make enquiries as to which old peoples' home the then students are now in and approach them for details, I suppose ... Half in jest, Michael ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140621/a0280b9d/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote: Is there a way to get a personalized HRTF (or even one near mine) with out spending many hundreds of the coins of your choice or travelling to a distant destination? No but, if the Microsoft stuff works out, there might be. Is there a standard format for HRTFS that can be used in several softwares or even converted? The answer is, again, no. However, to state the obvious, if HRTFs are going to fly then there needs to be. Is this a task for the AES and/or the EBU? To continue stating the obvious, most audio-only listening currently takes place using ear-buds plugged into players or phones. This doesn't look like it is going to change anytime soon. Binaural with personalized HRTFs would improve this listening experience. Regards, Martin -- Martin J Leese E-mail: martin.leese stanfordalumni.org Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
I think the AES already has a project to define a file format for htrfs; when I get home I can find the project code. Richard Dobson Sent from my iPhone On 23 Jun 2014, at 17:43, Martin Leese martin.le...@stanfordalumni.org wrote: Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote: Is there a way to get a personalized HRTF (or even one near mine) with out spending many hundreds of the coins of your choice or travelling to a distant destination? No but, if the Microsoft stuff works out, there might be. Is there a standard format for HRTFS that can be used in several softwares or even converted? The answer is, again, no. However, to state the obvious, if HRTFs are going to fly then there needs to be. Is this a task for the AES and/or the EBU? To continue stating the obvious, most audio-only listening currently takes place using ear-buds plugged into players or phones. This doesn't look like it is going to change anytime soon. Binaural with personalized HRTFs would improve this listening experience. Regards, Martin -- Martin J Leese E-mail: martin.leese stanfordalumni.org Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
Dear Richard and Sursounders, The AES-X212 Spatial acoustic data file format standardizes a file format to exchange HRTF data. The format is designed to be extendable to represent any space-related data, such as spatial room impulse responses (SRIR) measured with multichannel microphone and loudspeaker arrays. It builds upon the spatially oriented format for acoustics (SOFA) and has the filename extension sofa. The AES-X212 Task Group Draft got approved by the AES-SC earlier this year. I am currently working on the final edits and we should get the standard published within the next few weeks. An application-programming interface (API) with similar calls for various programming languages (Matlab, Octave, C++) and for different computer platforms is available online at http://www.sofaconventions.org as well as on http://sourceforge.net/projects/sofacoustics. The API provides functionality to create, read, and write SOFA files. The SOFA website already hosts source materials from different HRTF databases. Please note that these data are encoded using a beta version of the AES-X212 format. Best Regards, Markus On 23 juin 2014, at 19:47, Richard Dobson richarddob...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I think the AES already has a project to define a file format for htrfs; when I get home I can find the project code. Richard Dobson Sent from my iPhone On 23 Jun 2014, at 17:43, Martin Leese martin.le...@stanfordalumni.org wrote: Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote: Is there a way to get a personalized HRTF (or even one near mine) with out spending many hundreds of the coins of your choice or travelling to a distant destination? No but, if the Microsoft stuff works out, there might be. Is there a standard format for HRTFS that can be used in several softwares or even converted? The answer is, again, no. However, to state the obvious, if HRTFs are going to fly then there needs to be. Is this a task for the AES and/or the EBU? To continue stating the obvious, most audio-only listening currently takes place using ear-buds plugged into players or phones. This doesn't look like it is going to change anytime soon. Binaural with personalized HRTFs would improve this listening experience. Regards, Martin -- Martin J Leese E-mail: martin.leese stanfordalumni.org Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
Martin Leese wrote: Dave Malham wrote: Oh, for cryin' out loud. Makes you want to weep - Microsoft reinventing again what's already been done and (most of) the rest of the world believing they're the originators... I am no fan of Microsoft, but this seems a little harsh. Quickly producing an approximate personalized HRTF using only head and shoulders is new, and potentially useful. I believe very useful, and (together with similar projects) very possibly on the right track to convincingly reproduce surround sound/3D audio via headphones. We have discussed this area here on this list several times before, see (for example) some sursound postings from the 16th of May (2014) ... (Thread: TetraMic and JauntVR in Time...) ... umashankar manthravadi wrote: Dear Stefan how does one create hrtfs/hrirs from photos - of the pinnae, I assume? Umashankar IV. http://gamma.cs.unc.edu/HRTF/docs/PHRTFpaper_final.pdf Accurate rendering of 3D spatial audio for interactive virtual auditory displays requires the use of personalized head related transfer functions (HRTFs). We present a new approach to compute personalized HRTFs for any individual based on combining state-of-theart image-based 3D modeling with an efficient numerical simulation pipeline. Our 3D modeling framework enables capture of the listener’s head and torso using consumer-grade digital cameras to estimate a high resolution non-parametric surface representation of the head, including extended vicinity of the listener’s ear. The JauntVR people/developpers might take note of fig. 4 in the cited document. Figure 4: Typical use-case scenario for the personalized HRTFs computed by our pipeline. The user is being delivered a virtual experience through the HMD as well as through spatial sound rendered using the personalized HRTF computed for them by our technique. The HMD happens to be an Oculus Rift. Oh my dear, it is such a small world... Best, Stefan Whole thread: https://www.mail-archive.com/sursound%40music.vt.edu/msg05743.html The cited research paper (the .pdf-link above) and other (provided) links to papers in the thread show that Microsoft is - very obviously! - not first in this area. But of course they should have some real interest in this, because of their Kinect camera. Tashev says he is now working to improve the capture system and make it smooth and speedy enough to be something a person with a Kinect camera might be able to do at home . Mark Billinghurst, a professor and leader of the Human Interface Lab at the University of Canterbury, New Zealand, says that the approach developed by Microsoft could have a broad impact if the scanning process can be made practical enough It makes absoutely sense for Microsoft to look into this area, because of their obvious interests in computer/console games, VR, interfaces etc. You could also reproduce surround recordings (our interest...) via a a sophisticated binaural decoder, employing head-tracking and personalized HRTF/BRTF sets. (See Smyth Realiser, prior art.) There have been a lot of projects trying to derive more or less accurate HRTF data from 3D scans and (2D) photos. What still is needed is to improve these methods. And actually, to apply them in some real-world scenario... :-) From the MIT Technology Review article: That somewhat eerie experience was made possible because less than a minute earlier I had sat down in front of a Kinect 3-D sensor and been turned briefly to the left and right. Software built a 3-D model of my head and shoulders and then used that model to calculate a personalized filter that made it possible to fool my auditory senses. ... Tashev’s system is a new twist on an old idea. ... When Tashev quickly scans a person’s head, his software generates an approximation of that subject’s HRTF that seems good enough to produce unusually accurate spatial audio. ... Tashev says he is now working to improve the capture system and make it smooth and speedy enough to be something a person with a Kinect camera might be able to do at home. Mark Billinghurst ... says that the approach developed by Microsoft could have a broad impact if the scanning process can be made practical enough. Regards, Martin Best, Stefan -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140622/b5b28a70/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
Potentially very useful indeed, especially if they make it at least reasonably open. For my own part, my oh for crying out loud rant should have been more obviously aimed at the tone of the press release which was what I was really upset by. However, please note I reserve the right to get annoyed at Microsoft in future, at least when when it is merited :-) Dave On 22 June 2014 15:59, Stefan Schreiber st...@mail.telepac.pt wrote: Martin Leese wrote: Dave Malham wrote: Oh, for cryin' out loud. Makes you want to weep - Microsoft reinventing again what's already been done and (most of) the rest of the world believing they're the originators... I am no fan of Microsoft, but this seems a little harsh. Quickly producing an approximate personalized HRTF using only head and shoulders is new, and potentially useful. I believe very useful, and (together with similar projects) very possibly on the right track to convincingly reproduce surround sound/3D audio via headphones. We have discussed this area here on this list several times before, see (for example) some sursound postings from the 16th of May (2014) ... (Thread: TetraMic and JauntVR in Time...) ... umashankar manthravadi wrote: Dear Stefan how does one create hrtfs/hrirs from photos - of the pinnae, I assume? Umashankar IV. http://gamma.cs.unc.edu/HRTF/docs/PHRTFpaper_final.pdf Accurate rendering of 3D spatial audio for interactive virtual auditory displays requires the use of personalized head related transfer functions (HRTFs). We present a new approach to compute personalized HRTFs for any individual based on combining state-of-theart image-based 3D modeling with an efficient numerical simulation pipeline. Our 3D modeling framework enables capture of the listener’s head and torso using consumer-grade digital cameras to estimate a high resolution non-parametric surface representation of the head, including extended vicinity of the listener’s ear. The JauntVR people/developpers might take note of fig. 4 in the cited document. Figure 4: Typical use-case scenario for the personalized HRTFs computed by our pipeline. The user is being delivered a virtual experience through the HMD as well as through spatial sound rendered using the personalized HRTF computed for them by our technique. The HMD happens to be an Oculus Rift. Oh my dear, it is such a small world... Best, Stefan Whole thread: https://www.mail-archive.com/sursound%40music.vt.edu/msg05743.html The cited research paper (the .pdf-link above) and other (provided) links to papers in the thread show that Microsoft is - very obviously! - not first in this area. But of course they should have some real interest in this, because of their Kinect camera. Tashev says he is now working to improve the capture system and make it smooth and speedy enough to be something a person with a Kinect camera might be able to do at home . Mark Billinghurst, a professor and leader of the Human Interface Lab at the University of Canterbury, New Zealand, says that the approach developed by Microsoft could have a broad impact if the scanning process can be made practical enough It makes absoutely sense for Microsoft to look into this area, because of their obvious interests in computer/console games, VR, interfaces etc. You could also reproduce surround recordings (our interest...) via a a sophisticated binaural decoder, employing head-tracking and personalized HRTF/BRTF sets. (See Smyth Realiser, prior art.) There have been a lot of projects trying to derive more or less accurate HRTF data from 3D scans and (2D) photos. What still is needed is to improve these methods. And actually, to apply them in some real-world scenario... :-) From the MIT Technology Review article: That somewhat eerie experience was made possible because less than a minute earlier I had sat down in front of a Kinect 3-D sensor and been turned briefly to the left and right. Software built a 3-D model of my head and shoulders and then used that model to calculate a personalized filter that made it possible to fool my auditory senses. ... Tashev’s system is a new twist on an old idea. ... When Tashev quickly scans a person’s head, his software generates an approximation of that subject’s HRTF that seems good enough to produce unusually accurate spatial audio. ... Tashev says he is now working to improve the capture system and make it smooth and speedy enough to be something a person with a Kinect camera might be able to do at home. Mark Billinghurst ... says that the approach developed by Microsoft could have a broad impact if the scanning process can be made practical enough. Regards, Martin Best, Stefan -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/
Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
Sad but true... Sorry, but I must take issue, calling Microsoft sad is akin to calling a genocide 'unfortunate' !!! On 6/21/14, 12:08 AM, Dave Malham wrote: Oh, for cryin' out loud. Makes you want to weep - Microsoft reinventing again what's already been done and (most of) the rest of the world believing they're the originators... Dave On 20 June 2014 17:52, David Pickett d...@fugato.com wrote: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/527826/microsofts-3- d-audio-gives-virtual-objects-a-voice/ David ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
Dave Malham wrote: Oh, for cryin' out loud. Makes you want to weep - Microsoft reinventing again what's already been done and (most of) the rest of the world believing they're the originators... I am no fan of Microsoft, but this seems a little harsh. Quickly producing an approximate personalized HRTF using only head and shoulders is new, and potentially useful. From the MIT Technology Review article: That somewhat eerie experience was made possible because less than a minute earlier I had sat down in front of a Kinect 3-D sensor and been turned briefly to the left and right. Software built a 3-D model of my head and shoulders and then used that model to calculate a personalized filter that made it possible to fool my auditory senses. ... Tashev’s system is a new twist on an old idea. ... When Tashev quickly scans a person’s head, his software generates an approximation of that subject’s HRTF that seems good enough to produce unusually accurate spatial audio. ... Tashev says he is now working to improve the capture system and make it smooth and speedy enough to be something a person with a Kinect camera might be able to do at home. Mark Billinghurst ... says that the approach developed by Microsoft could have a broad impact if the scanning process can be made practical enough. Regards, Martin -- Martin J Leese E-mail: martin.leese stanfordalumni.org Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
Dave Malham wrote: Oh, for cryin' out loud. Makes you want to weep - Microsoft reinventing again what's already been done and (most of) the rest of the world believing they're the originators... I am no fan of Microsoft, but this seems a little harsh. Quickly producing an approximate personalized HRTF using only head and shoulders is new, and potentially useful. 'harsh' about M$ ... I only wish I had Douglas Adams' words to hand ... IIRC years ago there was a student project, IIRC it was York (in which case Dave is being modest), and (I hyberbolise) the project was the tech side for a concept to cover the country with Tardi (?Tardises): You went in, put two pennies in slot A, pushed button B, and out popped your HRTF. We could make enquiries as to which old peoples' home the then students are now in and approach them for details, I suppose ... Half in jest, Michael ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] And now for something different...
I have to be fair - this was my colleague Tony Tew from the Department of Electronics that was in charge of this... Dave On 21 June 2014 21:12, Michael Chapman s...@mchapman.com wrote: Dave Malham wrote: Oh, for cryin' out loud. Makes you want to weep - Microsoft reinventing again what's already been done and (most of) the rest of the world believing they're the originators... I am no fan of Microsoft, but this seems a little harsh. Quickly producing an approximate personalized HRTF using only head and shoulders is new, and potentially useful. 'harsh' about M$ ... I only wish I had Douglas Adams' words to hand ... IIRC years ago there was a student project, IIRC it was York (in which case Dave is being modest), and (I hyberbolise) the project was the tech side for a concept to cover the country with Tardi (?Tardises): You went in, put two pennies in slot A, pushed button B, and out popped your HRTF. We could make enquiries as to which old peoples' home the then students are now in and approach them for details, I suppose ... Half in jest, Michael ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20140621/a0280b9d/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
