Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
Hang on, hang on - if the electrons exceed the speed of light then either a: their mass will go infinite and the cable will implode into a mini black hole or b: they will decay into tachyons resulting in the sound coming out of the speaker before it has even been recorded Dav M. On Jul 27 2011, David Worrall wrote: I have been browsing this list long enough to observe that this phenomena only occurs (or at least is only reported, on this list, albeit with annual regularity) in Northern Hemisphere summers. Down under, the summers are so hot that the electrons want to pass through cable as quickly as possible, so they exhibit an exact opposite characteristic: Temporal Intensification Dilation (also DIT, unfortunately); thought to be the caused as them exceeding the speed of light in order to 'get the f*** outa there'. The phenomena can be reversed, or at least alleviated from a 3rd person perspective, by plugging the cables into a live mains socket and biting hard on the other end. David On 28/07/2011, at 3:42 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote: On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote: havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless world) Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night in an upright position. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ Dr David Worrall Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University david.worr...@anu.edu.au Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) IT Projects, Music Council of Australia worrall.avatar.com.au sonification.com.au -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110728/bffc3272/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
Arghhh - I shouldn't have let this out of the bag - there's clearly a _massive_ EU research funding opportunity here - now, how do I go about obtaining time on the large Hadron Collider??? Dave M. On Jul 28 2011, dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: Hang on, hang on - if the electrons exceed the speed of light then either a: their mass will go infinite and the cable will implode into a mini black hole or b: they will decay into tachyons resulting in the sound coming out of the speaker before it has even been recorded Dav M. On Jul 27 2011, David Worrall wrote: I have been browsing this list long enough to observe that this phenomena only occurs (or at least is only reported, on this list, albeit with annual regularity) in Northern Hemisphere summers. Down under, the summers are so hot that the electrons want to pass through cable as quickly as possible, so they exhibit an exact opposite characteristic: Temporal Intensification Dilation (also DIT, unfortunately); thought to be the caused as them exceeding the speed of light in order to 'get the f*** outa there'. The phenomena can be reversed, or at least alleviated from a 3rd person perspective, by plugging the cables into a live mains socket and biting hard on the other end. David On 28/07/2011, at 3:42 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote: On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote: havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless world) Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night in an upright position. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ Dr David Worrall Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University david.worr...@anu.edu.au Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) IT Projects, Music Council of Australia worrall.avatar.com.au sonification.com.au -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110728/bffc3272/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
a: in the northern hemisphere - because there are more people (masses- Kyrie Eleison!) and b: in the southern hemisphere - which is why the electroacoustic music is so 'advanced' there drw On 28/07/2011, at 4:50 PM, dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: Hang on, hang on - if the electrons exceed the speed of light then either a: their mass will go infinite and the cable will implode into a mini black hole or b: they will decay into tachyons resulting in the sound coming out of the speaker before it has even been recorded Dav M. On Jul 27 2011, David Worrall wrote: I have been browsing this list long enough to observe that this phenomena only occurs (or at least is only reported, on this list, albeit with annual regularity) in Northern Hemisphere summers. Down under, the summers are so hot that the electrons want to pass through cable as quickly as possible, so they exhibit an exact opposite characteristic: Temporal Intensification Dilation (also DIT, unfortunately); thought to be the caused as them exceeding the speed of light in order to 'get the f*** outa there'. The phenomena can be reversed, or at least alleviated from a 3rd person perspective, by plugging the cables into a live mains socket and biting hard on the other end. David On 28/07/2011, at 3:42 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote: On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote: havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless world) Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night in an upright position. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ Dr David Worrall Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University david.worr...@anu.edu.au Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) IT Projects, Music Council of Australia worrall.avatar.com.au sonification.com.au -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110728/c18b7dd9/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
certain kinds of sounds (like the hindu om, which has to produced while breathing in) or known to slow the universe down, including the electrons in loudspeaker wires - even extremely snake-y wires. the result after a time is that the electrons pool in the wire and form a bose-einstein condensate. (no i did not read about this in the wireless world). i dont like bose loudspeakers so it is not subliminal advertising either. umashankar i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:57:48 +0100 From: dave.mal...@york.ac.uk To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!) Arghhh - I shouldn't have let this out of the bag - there's clearly a _massive_ EU research funding opportunity here - now, how do I go about obtaining time on the large Hadron Collider??? Dave M. On Jul 28 2011, dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: Hang on, hang on - if the electrons exceed the speed of light then either a: their mass will go infinite and the cable will implode into a mini black hole or b: they will decay into tachyons resulting in the sound coming out of the speaker before it has even been recorded Dav M. On Jul 27 2011, David Worrall wrote: I have been browsing this list long enough to observe that this phenomena only occurs (or at least is only reported, on this list, albeit with annual regularity) in Northern Hemisphere summers. Down under, the summers are so hot that the electrons want to pass through cable as quickly as possible, so they exhibit an exact opposite characteristic: Temporal Intensification Dilation (also DIT, unfortunately); thought to be the caused as them exceeding the speed of light in order to 'get the f*** outa there'. The phenomena can be reversed, or at least alleviated from a 3rd person perspective, by plugging the cables into a live mains socket and biting hard on the other end. David On 28/07/2011, at 3:42 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote: On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote: havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless world) Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night in an upright position. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ Dr David Worrall Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University david.worr...@anu.edu.au Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) IT Projects, Music Council of Australia worrall.avatar.com.au sonification.com.au -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110728/bffc3272/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110728/128da6a3/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
All of this arises in my view from two simple things: 1 People in audio do not check things double blind and 2 People in audio do not normalize things for frequency response and do not do precision measurements of frequency response. Point 1 is obvious. About point 2: Small shifts in frequency response occur for a wide variety of reasons, cables among them. If the shifts are indeed small, down near the 0.1 dB threshold(approximately), then the changes heard are not always of the overt tonal nature--brighter, more or less bass, nore or less midrange forward and so on--but are often of the nature of things like transparency and other poetic and imprecise audiophile words. So one could in fact end up hearing an improvement--or what could seem like an improvement--from changing cables, simply because there was a microshift in frequency response. No sensible person would pay a lot of money to get such a micro-shift in frequency response. But if one did not KNOW that that was what it was, I suppose a certain kind of person might be inclined to pay a lot of money for increased transparency. Words count. A trivial thing like a tiny lift around 6k can be made nontrivial to some people by giving it an impressive name, like transparency. I have heard otherwise sensible people claim that transaparency is an independent thing, outside the realm of ordinary audio measurements and phenomena. This is of course nonsense. But it is a kind of nonsense that propagates all too readily among people who do not understand at all how audio works but who have spent a lot of time listening to it. Robert On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Danny McCarty wrote: Funny, I read the company's name as Synthetic Research. Much more appropriate. On Jul 27, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Paul Doornbusch wrote: The shock, and potentially the most snake-oil, could be from the $40,000 for these Galileo speaker cables (poor old Galileo probably does not even get any royalties from them using his esteemed name): http://www.synergisticresearch.com/galileo-system/galileo-system-speaker-cable/ reviewed here http://www.avguide.com/review/synergistic-research-galileo-cable-and-interconnect-tas-210 my brother pointed this out to me, coincidentally, on Monday. p. A few surprising shocks ought to be enough to shake the more reticent ones loose. After that, just leave the negative pole connected on the upper end, and you'll have a fresh start in the morning. The electrons will thank you too! havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless world) Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night in an upright position. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound Danny McCarty Monolith Media, Inc. 4183 Summit View Hood River, Or 97031 415-331-7628 541-399-0089 Cell http://www.monolithmedia.net/ http://www.danielmccarty.com/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
The review comments on Amazon for the Audio Quest K2 speaker cable are very entertaining in the most: http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-K2-terminated-speaker-cable/product-reviews/B000J36XR2/ Certainly more interesting than some dubious pseudo-expert 'review' - Neil On 7/28/2011 1:03 PM, Robert Greene wrote: All of this arises in my view from two simple things: 1 People in audio do not check things double blind and 2 People in audio do not normalize things for frequency response and do not do precision measurements of frequency response. Point 1 is obvious. About point 2: Small shifts in frequency response occur for a wide variety of reasons, cables among them. If the shifts are indeed small, down near the 0.1 dB threshold(approximately), then the changes heard are not always of the overt tonal nature--brighter, more or less bass, nore or less midrange forward and so on--but are often of the nature of things like transparency and other poetic and imprecise audiophile words. So one could in fact end up hearing an improvement--or what could seem like an improvement--from changing cables, simply because there was a microshift in frequency response. No sensible person would pay a lot of money to get such a micro-shift in frequency response. But if one did not KNOW that that was what it was, I suppose a certain kind of person might be inclined to pay a lot of money for increased transparency. Words count. A trivial thing like a tiny lift around 6k can be made nontrivial to some people by giving it an impressive name, like transparency. I have heard otherwise sensible people claim that transaparency is an independent thing, outside the realm of ordinary audio measurements and phenomena. This is of course nonsense. But it is a kind of nonsense that propagates all too readily among people who do not understand at all how audio works but who have spent a lot of time listening to it. Robert On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Danny McCarty wrote: Funny, I read the company's name as Synthetic Research. Much more appropriate. On Jul 27, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Paul Doornbusch wrote: The shock, and potentially the most snake-oil, could be from the $40,000 for these Galileo speaker cables (poor old Galileo probably does not even get any royalties from them using his esteemed name): http://www.synergisticresearch.com/galileo-system/galileo-system-speaker-cable/ reviewed here http://www.avguide.com/review/synergistic-research-galileo-cable-and-interconnect-tas-210 my brother pointed this out to me, coincidentally, on Monday. p. A few surprising shocks ought to be enough to shake the more reticent ones loose. After that, just leave the negative pole connected on the upper end, and you'll have a fresh start in the morning. The electrons will thank you too! havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless world) Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night in an upright position. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound Danny McCarty Monolith Media, Inc. 4183 Summit View Hood River, Or 97031 415-331-7628 541-399-0089 Cell http://www.monolithmedia.net/ http://www.danielmccarty.com/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
I wrote the following as a guide for internal use at my work-place a few years back: One don't that I hold close is this: Don't be mislead by the many snake oil and, smoke and mirrors cable vendors that seem to imbue speaker cables with magical (and astronomically expensive) properties. No matter what Monster Cable, Audioquest, or Cardas claim (or any other esoteric speaker wire manufacturer for that matter), there has never been any proof in any unbiased listen test that there is any benefit from using these snake oil, and smoke and mirrors inventions. [I still stand absolutely by this statement... if you are one of the sad souls that believe they can hear a difference, then you deserve to waste ALL your money on magical items - I have some acoustic candles for sale they cost $1000 each and you must use one per speaker in your listening room the benefits are when lit, you can find each speaker when you turn the lights off). The most amusing claim is that some speaker wires are directional... yes, some manufacturers have decided that their cables must be installed in a particular orientation (usually indicated by an arrow printed on the outer jacket of the cable indicating the direction from the amp to the speaker that the wire is designed to be used. All sorts of claims are made trying to justify this. However speakers are inherently AC (Alternating Current) devices, and hence the electrons in a speaker wire spend just as much time traveling in one direction, as they do the other, so there is no fathomable reasoning that explains just how a speaker cable can possibly be directional, well excepting possibly being able to charge 10 times more to cover the cost of printing the arrows... In fact if you consider this claim further, the more you realize the wacko aspect to this - if the cable truly did work better in one direction versus the other, then the resultant sound cannot possibly be anyt hing other than distorted when the electrons are flowing in the reverse direction! Another odd claim heard for some of the astoundingly expensive speaker connects on the market* is that 'normal' speaker cables exhibit some resonance in the audio band, due to their claimed transmission line properties (since it is common to model a cable as an RLC network). While the RLC model is not invalid, the (usually unsubstantiated) claim that the resonance occurs in the audio band (most often mentioned is 1.5kHz), is very easily proven through basic electronic math to be hopelessly incorrect, and even for a long 50 foot 10AWG cable of quite humble specification, the resonant frequency calculates out to be 2.02MHz (some 2 magnitudes beyond human hearing)! In reality cables DO NOT resonate at all! The model represented here is single RLC lumped circuit for simplicity and is only accurate at audio frequencies for circuit analysis. A speaker cable is actually a distributed element and should be represented as infinite number of lumped RLC models. As an infinite number o f lumped RLC circuits are modeled becoming its true distributed form factor, we see the resonance frequency go to infinity. In order to shorten this discussion the most basic don't is, don't buy any cable that claims anything other than the simple design goal of connecting an amplifier to a speaker. So what does matter? The bottom line is that the speaker cable DC resistance should by rule -of-thumb present no more than 5% of the impedance load presented by the speaker, and hence the ONLY real issue of concern is the resistance of the selected wire per foot. The speakers I use most often have a rated impedance of 4 Ohms, hence we do not want to see a DC resistance greater than 0.2 Ohms for the cable run. In general the distance run per wire gauge recommendations I use are as follows: Up to 40 feet : 14AWG 40-60 feet: 12 AWG 60-100 feet: 10 AWG - Neil On Jul 27, 2011, at 8:03 AM, umashankar mantravadi wrote: years ago (no decades ago) i found what a huge difference it made if the wires were reasonably thick, and cut to be exactly same length. cutting them to same length is problematic with eight loudspeakers (unless the amp sits in the sweet spot) but my next rig, in my own house, in bangalore next year, will have same length wires to all the speakers. umashankar i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:57:49 -0700 From: d...@dgvo.net To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception On 26/07/11 3:41 p.m., Sampo Syreeni wrote: On 2011-07-26, Fons Adriaensen wrote: I certainly don't want you to waste your money on fancy speaker cables. Never thought otherwise. That's obviously never been what we do here. ;) But resistance does matter, so a good cross section such as 2.5 mm^2 puts you on the safe side. What I was trying to ask is, what's the real problem with resistance, especially
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
Oh dear. LOL April edition was it? LOL havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless world) umashankar i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar From: neil.water...@asti-usa.com Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:20:02 -0400 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!) I wrote the following as a guide for internal use at my work-place a few years back: One don't that I hold close is this: Don't be mislead by the many snake oil and, smoke and mirrors cable vendors that seem to imbue speaker cables with magical (and astronomically expensive) properties. No matter what Monster Cable, Audioquest, or Cardas claim (or any other esoteric speaker wire manufacturer for that matter), there has never been any proof in any unbiased listen test that there is any benefit from using these snake oil, and smoke and mirrors inventions. [I still stand absolutely by this statement... if you are one of the sad souls that believe they can hear a difference, then you deserve to waste ALL your money on magical items - I have some acoustic candles for sale they cost $1000 each and you must use one per speaker in your listening room the benefits are when lit, you can find each speaker when you turn the lights off). The most amusing claim is that some speaker wires are directional... yes, some manufacturers have decided that their cables must be installed in a particular orientation (usually indicated by an arrow printed on the outer jacket of the cable indicating the direction from the amp to the speaker that the wire is designed to be used. All sorts of claims are made trying to justify this. However speakers are inherently AC (Alternating Current) devices, and hence the electrons in a speaker wire spend just as much time traveling in one direction, as they do the other, so there is no fathomable reasoning that explains just how a speaker cable can possibly be directional, well excepting possibly being able to charge 10 times more to cover the cost of printing the arrows... In fact if you consider this claim further, the more you realize the wacko aspect to this - if the cable truly did work better in one direction versus the other, then the resultant sound cannot possibly be an yt hing other than distorted when the electrons are flowing in the reverse direction! Another odd claim heard for some of the astoundingly expensive speaker connects on the market* is that 'normal' speaker cables exhibit some resonance in the audio band, due to their claimed transmission line properties (since it is common to model a cable as an RLC network). While the RLC model is not invalid, the (usually unsubstantiated) claim that the resonance occurs in the audio band (most often mentioned is 1.5kHz), is very easily proven through basic electronic math to be hopelessly incorrect, and even for a long 50 foot 10AWG cable of quite humble specification, the resonant frequency calculates out to be 2.02MHz (some 2 magnitudes beyond human hearing)! In reality cables DO NOT resonate at all! The model represented here is single RLC lumped circuit for simplicity and is only accurate at audio frequencies for circuit analysis. A speaker cable is actually a distributed element and should be represented as infinite number of lumped RLC models. As an infinite numb er o f lumped RLC circuits are modeled becoming its true distributed form factor, we see the resonance frequency go to infinity. In order to shorten this discussion the most basic don't is, don't buy any cable that claims anything other than the simple design goal of connecting an amplifier to a speaker. So what does matter? The bottom line is that the speaker cable DC resistance should by rule -of-thumb present no more than 5% of the impedance load presented by the speaker, and hence the ONLY real issue of concern is the resistance of the selected wire per foot. The speakers I use most often have a rated impedance of 4 Ohms, hence we do not want to see a DC resistance greater than 0.2 Ohms for the cable run. In general the distance run per wire gauge recommendations I use are as follows: Up to 40 feet : 14AWG 40-60 feet: 12 AWG 60-100 feet: 10 AWG - Neil On Jul 27, 2011, at 8:03 AM, umashankar mantravadi wrote: years ago (no decades ago) i found what a huge difference it made if the wires were reasonably thick, and cut to be exactly same length. cutting them to same length is problematic with eight loudspeakers
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
but of course ! umashankar i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar From: zoanne...@yahoo.co.uk To: sursound@music.vt.edu Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:26:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!) Oh dear. LOL April edition was it? LOL havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless world) umashankar i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar From: neil.water...@asti-usa.com Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 08:20:02 -0400 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!) I wrote the following as a guide for internal use at my work-place a few years back: One don't that I hold close is this: Don't be mislead by the many snake oil and, smoke and mirrors cable vendors that seem to imbue speaker cables with magical (and astronomically expensive) properties. No matter what Monster Cable, Audioquest, or Cardas claim (or any other esoteric speaker wire manufacturer for that matter), there has never been any proof in any unbiased listen test that there is any benefit from using these snake oil, and smoke and mirrors inventions. [I still stand absolutely by this statement... if you are one of the sad souls that believe they can hear a difference, then you deserve to waste ALL your money on magical items - I have some acoustic candles for sale they cost $1000 each and you must use one per speaker in your listening room the benefits are when lit, you can find each speaker when you turn the lights off). The most amusing claim is that some speaker wires are directional... yes, some manufacturers have decided that their cables must be installed in a particular orientation (usually indicated by an arrow printed on the outer jacket of the cable indicating the direction from the amp to the speaker that the wire is designed to be used. All sorts of claims are made trying to justify this. However speakers are inherently AC (Alternating Current) devices, and hence the electrons in a speaker wire spend just as much time traveling in one direction, as they do the other, so there is no fathomable reasoning that explains just how a speaker cable can possibly be directional, well excepting possibly being able to charge 10 times more to cover the cost of printing the arrows... In fact if you consider this claim further, the more you realize the wacko aspect to this - if the cable truly did work better in one direction versus the other, then the resultant sound cannot possibly b e an yt hing other than distorted when the electrons are flowing in the reverse direction! Another odd claim heard for some of the astoundingly expensive speaker connects on the market* is that 'normal' speaker cables exhibit some resonance in the audio band, due to their claimed transmission line properties (since it is common to model a cable as an RLC network). While the RLC model is not invalid, the (usually unsubstantiated) claim that the resonance occurs in the audio band (most often mentioned is 1.5kHz), is very easily proven through basic electronic math to be hopelessly incorrect, and even for a long 50 foot 10AWG cable of quite humble specification, the resonant frequency calculates out to be 2.02MHz (some 2 magnitudes beyond human hearing)! In reality cables DO NOT resonate at all! The model represented here is single RLC lumped circuit for simplicity and is only accurate at audio frequencies for circuit analysis. A speaker cable is actually a distributed element and should be represented as infinite number of lumped RLC models. As an infinite nu mb er o f lumped RLC circuits are modeled becoming its true distributed form factor, we see the resonance frequency go to infinity. In order to shorten this discussion the most basic don't is, don't buy any cable that claims anything other than the simple design goal of connecting an amplifier to a speaker. So what does matter? The bottom line is that the speaker cable DC resistance should by rule -of-thumb present no more than 5% of the impedance load presented by the speaker, and hence the ONLY real issue of concern is the resistance of the selected wire per foot. The speakers I use most often have a rated impedance of 4 Ohms, hence we do not want to see a DC resistance greater than 0.2 Ohms for the cable run. In general the distance run per wire gauge recommendations I use are as follows
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
Surely a Duracell would be perfect for the job, I mean, it does wonders for that rabbit... The problem with using a cheap battery for doing this is that those electrons which are really not able to move anymore (for example those having a broken leg, the result of smashing into another one going in the opposite direction) are not flushed out, but merely reduced to debris that will impede the flow of the new electrons. To really clean up your cable you need something more sophisticated and expensive, the more expensive the better. -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3790 - Release Date: 07/26/11 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110727/8c30093f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
Am I missing something? You send electrons and the speaker cone moves out, o.k. It comes back by itself. But surely you want it to move _in_ as well? How do you do that without positrons. (I think that's right, most things in surround sound seem counter-intuitive: So I doubt if it is positrons out / electrons in?) Anyway, I've learnt something: I always thought the little arrows on all my speaker cables meant they were made by workers in prisons (or is the arrow as a prison sign non-ISO / ITU?). Michael On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 05:52:58PM +0530, umashankar mantravadi wrote: havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless world) umashankar The problem with using a cheap battery for doing this is that those electrons which are really not able to move anymore (for example those having a broken leg, the result of smashing into another one going in the opposite direction) are not flushed out, but merely reduced to debris that will impede the flow of the new electrons. To really clean up your cable you need something more sophisticated and expensive, the more expensive the better. -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
I found this message really intriguing since the rabbit is really in an ad for Energizer batteries not Duracell. One wonders why advertising is useful! I have had exactly the same experience. The ads are memorable, but what they are ads FOR is not. Better than the original--who can forget the old master at the easel. But what was being advertised? It's not nice to fool Mother Nature'. What was that an ad for? I can't believe I ate the whole thing You ate it, Ralph --unforgettable but what was the product? I suppose this is good--the culture is added to without benefit to the probably undeserving! Robert On Wed, 27 Jul 2011, Richard wrote: Surely a Duracell would be perfect for the job, I mean, it does wonders for that rabbit... The problem with using a cheap battery for doing this is that those electrons which are really not able to move anymore (for example those having a broken leg, the result of smashing into another one going in the opposite direction) are not flushed out, but merely reduced to debris that will impede the flow of the new electrons. To really clean up your cable you need something more sophisticated and expensive, the more expensive the better. -- FA ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3790 - Release Date: 07/26/11 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110727/8c30093f/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
If you have a suitable LiOn battery pack, shorting the terminals out with the cable perks up most the tired electrons - and the subsequent explosion will remove any that are too far gone... On Jul 27 2011, Sampo Syreeni wrote: On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote: havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless world) Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night in an upright position. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Distance perception (really speaker wire discussion!)
I have been browsing this list long enough to observe that this phenomena only occurs (or at least is only reported, on this list, albeit with annual regularity) in Northern Hemisphere summers. Down under, the summers are so hot that the electrons want to pass through cable as quickly as possible, so they exhibit an exact opposite characteristic: Temporal Intensification Dilation (also DIT, unfortunately); thought to be the caused as them exceeding the speed of light in order to 'get the f*** outa there'. The phenomena can be reversed, or at least alleviated from a 3rd person perspective, by plugging the cables into a live mains socket and biting hard on the other end. David On 28/07/2011, at 3:42 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote: On 2011-07-27, umashankar mantravadi wrote: havent you heard of tired electron distortion ? (TID). the electrons in speaker wire get tired moving back and forth and not going anywhere. the solution is to disconnect the speaker every few hours connect a battery one side and short the other, so all the old electrons can be flushed out (i think i read this in the wireless world) Alternatively you can have spare cables, and slowly drain them over night in an upright position. -- Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ Dr David Worrall Adjunct Research Fellow, Australian National University david.worr...@anu.edu.au Board Member, International Community for Auditory Display Regional Editor, Organised Sound (CUP) IT Projects, Music Council of Australia worrall.avatar.com.au sonification.com.au -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110728/bffc3272/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
