Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Mark Anderson]

The Ambisonic discography will reside at www.surrounddiscography.com
Until it is complete the web archive is available

-Original Message-
From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
On Behalf Of Sampo Syreeni
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 7:09 PM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

On 2012-03-07, Mark Anderson wrote:

> The UHJ Discography can be found here 
>
http://web.archive.org/web/20110513234453/http://members.cox.net/surround/in
dex.htm

Does anybody know whether/if the discography could be republished as 
part of the Ambisonic Motherlode?
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2012-03-07, Mark Anderson wrote:

The UHJ Discography can be found here 
http://web.archive.org/web/20110513234453/http://members.cox.net/surround/in 
dex.htm


Does anybody know whether/if the discography could be republished as 
part of the Ambisonic Motherlode?

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Mark Anderson]

The UHJ Discography can be found here
http://web.archive.org/web/20110513234453/http://members.cox.net/surround/in
dex.htm

A new site is in the works and should be complete in about a month

-Original Message-
From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
On Behalf Of Sampo Syreeni
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 6:42 PM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

On 2012-01-25, Eero Aro wrote:

>> I know the BBC did broadcast some of the Proms in either H or HJ, 
>> it's a real shame there's nobody I could contact at the BBC who might 
>> have more info. It's another thing that needs archiving, or it'll be 
>> lost forever
>
> It's a pity taht the Ambisonic Discography is down.

I've said it before (in-between one of my long rants), but I'll say it 
again: most likely most matrix encodings, whether active or passive, 
could be recognized blindly with the proper digital signal processing. 
I've never tried it, but there is plenty of theory to support it, and in 
more than one way.

For example, if you can ever lock onto a single source which gives out 
even a single, sustained harmonic which slides slowly enough in 
frequency, it is possible to calculate the local form of the transfer 
function from the source to the recording from there. Or if you ever 
know some source is impulsive enough, it's possible to use it as a 
bootstrap for multichannel deconvolution, where reverb is an aid to 
detection, instead of a hindrance. And so on.

I've never done it, but it's eminently doable. I wouldn't be surprised 
if it was doable, with whole pieces, to the level of identifying 
individual encoding circuits, or at least their faults, instead of just 
encoding standards. I mean, we have a *stupendous* amount of prior 
knowledge available about what music seems like when viewed through 
mathematical-statistical indicators, whereby seeing which kind of a 
system they went through before landing in our hands as an encoded 
version ought to be a rather straight forward (if modelling and 
computation intensive) problem.
-- 
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Martin Leese]

Sampo Syreeni  wrote:

> UHJ:t? ei, ja HJ:st?kin olisin ep?ilev?inen. Mutta H:ta kyll?. Vaikka
> siihen aikaan noista teknologioista ei niin puhuttukaan, jopa H:hon
> liittyv?t paperit taitavat viitata siihen, ett? se on ollut
> tuotantok?yt?ss?. T?ysin kertomatta brittiyleis?lle, luultavasti: "me
> vaan parannettiin v?h?n meid?n stereoo, niinqu." ;)
...

En ymmärrä.

Google Translate did manage to work out that
this was Finnish, but the actual translation was
indifferent.  I guess Finnish is still a bit difficult
for it.

Hyvästi,
Martin
-- 
Martin J Leese
E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2012-01-25, Paul Hodges wrote:

And given that HJ was defined to include within its tolerance zones 
both H and 45J, they could by definition have simply continued using 
existing H equipment and labelling the results HJ.


Yes. And that is one of the funkiest things about ambisonic 
compatibility codings: you can't say there is just one codec. No, there 
are encoders and decoders, separately. Because analog electronics 
compatibility not only allows, but sometimes requires that sort of 
thing.


I believe we should implicitly talk about precise encoders, here. 
Because there is precisely one optimum way to decode what they produce, 
evenwhile, say, UHJ allows a rather broad decoding band over the 
Scheiber sphere.


(Mind you, it was perhaps the first system in existence to explicitly 
define itself through a decoder, and a one which wasn't perfectly well 
defined either. Nowadays every digital codec defines itself that way, if 
usually in a way which doesn't tolerate errors... ;)

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2012-01-25, Eero Aro wrote:

But was BBC ever using either of the formats officially? At least they 
never transmitted UHJ officially and telling the audience about the 
encoding wasn't allowed.


UHJ:tä ei, ja HJ:stäkin olisin epäileväinen. Mutta H:ta kyllä. Vaikka 
siihen aikaan noista teknologioista ei niin puhuttukaan, jopa H:hon 
liittyvät paperit taitavat viitata siihen, että se on ollut 
tuotantokäytössä. Täysin kertomatta brittiyleisölle, luultavasti: "me 
vaan parannettiin vähän meidän stereoo, niinqu." ;)



Maybe it was all experimental and just testing the possible formats?


Tietääkseni juuri noin, mutta jossain takaraivossani paukuttelee 
semmoinen ajatus, että se varsinainen testaus olisi kestänyt vähintään 
puoli vuotta, ja sitten on-and-off-käyttö jopa useamman vuoden. Eli että 
jos joku on vaivautunut arkistoimaan tuon kaman, sitä on jossain 
mahdollisesti hervottomia määriä. Ilman että kukaan on dokumentoinut 
mikä on sitä, ja mikä on muuta.


After all, it was the decay era of the actual quad formats. NRDC never 
got through their suggestion about using UHJ as a quad radio 
transmission format.


Kuitenkin jopa SHJ:tä on testattu on-the-air, jossain välissä. Ei sillä 
että kukaan kuin labra olisi saanut otettua sitä vastaan, mutta siinä 
mielessä että päteekö sen teoria vai häiritseekö se sittenkin sen ajan 
epälineaarisilla radiopäätevahvistimilla lähetystä ja/tai 
rinnakkaiskanavia.


Siitä onko tuosta omituisuudesta jäljellä nauhoitteita, edes mun 
takaraivo ei sano mitään.


Was it the BBC that carried out the test transmissions, or was it the 
IBA, who had built all the experimental equipment?


SHJ:ssä tai jossain vastaavassa muistelisin että IBA, BBC taisi 
pysytellä enimmäkseen Matrix H:hon. Mutta kuten yleensä, älä vaan 
missään nimessä luota muhun referenssinä, tää tulee täysin takaraivosta 
taas. :)

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2012-01-25, Eero Aro wrote:

I know the BBC did broadcast some of the Proms in either H or HJ, 
it's a real shame there's nobody I could contact at the BBC who might 
have more info. It's another thing that needs archiving, or it'll be 
lost forever


It's a pity taht the Ambisonic Discography is down.


I've said it before (in-between one of my long rants), but I'll say it 
again: most likely most matrix encodings, whether active or passive, 
could be recognized blindly with the proper digital signal processing. 
I've never tried it, but there is plenty of theory to support it, and in 
more than one way.


For example, if you can ever lock onto a single source which gives out 
even a single, sustained harmonic which slides slowly enough in 
frequency, it is possible to calculate the local form of the transfer 
function from the source to the recording from there. Or if you ever 
know some source is impulsive enough, it's possible to use it as a 
bootstrap for multichannel deconvolution, where reverb is an aid to 
detection, instead of a hindrance. And so on.


I've never done it, but it's eminently doable. I wouldn't be surprised 
if it was doable, with whole pieces, to the level of identifying 
individual encoding circuits, or at least their faults, instead of just 
encoding standards. I mean, we have a *stupendous* amount of prior 
knowledge available about what music seems like when viewed through 
mathematical-statistical indicators, whereby seeing which kind of a 
system they went through before landing in our hands as an encoded 
version ought to be a rather straight forward (if modelling and 
computation intensive) problem.

--
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+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2012-01-27, Richard wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but I've read that before, and I don't read 
anywhere where it says HJ is UHJ.


You need to read the analysis which led to the UHJ specification. That 
"U" means "Universal". It's a rather wide decoding band within the 
Scheiber sphere which encloses most of the locuses of the three base 
standards, and also tries to be benign towards all of the nastier 
quadraphonic encoding standards of the time. The ping-pong-ones, you 
know...


Eventually UHJ encoding first took one, easy to implement analog locus 
within that band, and thanks to manual miscalculation and/or circuit 
design fault then had to be changed at least once before taking its 
eventual form. The one singular locus within the band that it is now. 
But it most certainly never left that band after it had first been 
implemented, and the band had been documented in full, even if I think 
it literally cut a corner of it after the early 45J work at some point.


From what I've read elsewhere, the phase angles of the front channels 
were tweaked to create 'HJ'


True.

Maybe I'm wrong and it's either a poorly written document, or I 
haven't a clue.


I'm very bad at history and my episodic memory is totally bunk, so take 
my comments with a large grain of salt as well.


Again, if it's a tweaked 'H' it had to be encoded. All I'm looking for 
is that equation.


This might be why there is a problem, here: originally there was *no* 
*single* encoding or decoding equation. There were just three (final, 
there were earlier prototypes as well) originating standards with very 
different encoding locuses, and wrt Ambisonics UHJ, first a general band 
within which encodings could work well, then an encoding in the middle 
of it which was held to be optimal, and then a pair of encoding/decoding 
locuseds which were close enough to the optimum to make the current UHJ 
locus, while being easy enough to be implemented in analog hardware. 
Thanks to hardware considerations, the locus was changed at least once, 
so that the current UHJ locus is contentious.


I seem to remember the change between the early (closer to ideal) and 
the later (cheaper to implement) UHJ locus mostly affects the upper band 
power oriented decoding, and there leads to somewhere between 1.4-3.0 
degrees error in localisation. That having been deemed good enough even 
by perceptual testing in living room conditions.


I'll admit I've not attempted to decode it as UHJ, I tried that with 
'H' ages ago, and that was awful


Personally, I've said before that I'd very much like to apply some 
statistical inference and heady signal processing to these signal sets. 
In order to determine whether the precise encoding is even discernible 
from all of the others. Then to automatically switch between different 
decoding algorithms, so as to derive the most perfect decode with any 
source material.


But truth be told, evenas I've never tried it, my back of the envelope 
calculation suggests you can't immediately detect the difference even 
with a statistical, matched detector which is much more sensitive than 
the human ear. So, in that regard, UHJ's compatibility decoding, in both 
its forms, ought to work pretty damn well for everything encoded in UHJ, 
and even for most of the stuff encoded against its three source 
standards.


(Over the entire length of a 3-4 minute single, using the proper 
Bayesian priors, and some Black, inverse-Volterra Voodoo, I'd bet you 
could separate each and every x-2-x system from each other, with x-n-x 
systems steadily becoming easier to distinguish as n grows. But I've 
never tried it, so this remains at the level of pure conjecture.)

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Paul Hodges]

--On 27 January 2012 21:24 + Richard  wrote:


So, could you possibly advise me what changes were made to the Matrix?


After a paragraph explaining how four cardioid or hypercardioid microphones 
can be used to generate W, X and Y by simple addition, the paper goes on:


"For pairwise panning, the particular option currently being used by the 
BBC is conveniently expressed in matrix format as:"




"With coincident groups of four microphones, sources on the perimeter of 
the quad stage are correctly encoded by [the given matrix] if Lf, Rf, Lb, 
Rb are the signal feeds from four, coincident, orthogonal 135 degree 
hypercardioid microphones.  [The matrix] may then also be expressed as:"




"where [theta] = source azimuth measured anti-clockwise from the 
centre-front position."


Paul

--
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

Very interesting. I went to that page and they want $30 for 5 days access!! 

So, could you possibly advise me what changes were made to the Matrix?

Richard


  The paper I just linked to ("System UHJ" by P S Gaskell, Sept 1979 
   - which I now have a copy of) gives the BBC's then 
  current encoding matrix for HJ, which is indeed different from the one I 
  have for H.  It doesn't give details of the "several" linear decoders 
  developed, but gives a reference - which is to MAG's paper "Design of 
  Ambisonic decoders for multispeaker surround sound".  This implies that a 
  UHJ decoder is expected.  The paper then gives more details of a logic 
  decoder.

  Paul

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

Well, you've given me another path to try, many thanks for your help


  --On 27 January 2012 19:57 + Richard  wrote:

  > But (and I'm playing devils advocate here) how would that account for the
  > 15 degree offset seen when comparing 'H' and 'HJ' recordings

  I can't - I've taken a punt as far as I can, and I might be about to trip 
  up!

  Paul

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Paul Hodges]

--On 27 January 2012 20:20 + Paul Hodges  
wrote:



I might be about to trip up


I have, rather.

The paper I just linked to ("System UHJ" by P S Gaskell, Sept 1979 
 - which I now have a copy of) gives the BBC's then 
current encoding matrix for HJ, which is indeed different from the one I 
have for H.  It doesn't give details of the "several" linear decoders 
developed, but gives a reference - which is to MAG's paper "Design of 
Ambisonic decoders for multispeaker surround sound".  This implies that a 
UHJ decoder is expected.  The paper then gives more details of a logic 
decoder.


Paul

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Paul Hodges]

--On 27 January 2012 19:57 + Richard  wrote:


But (and I'm playing devils advocate here) how would that account for the
15 degree offset seen when comparing 'H' and 'HJ' recordings


I can't - I've taken a punt as far as I can, and I might be about to trip 
up!


Paul

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Paul Hodges]

--On 27 January 2012 19:01 + Paul Hodges  
wrote:



It could well be that the BBC made no change at all to their Matrix-H
encoding as a result of the publication of HJ.  H fell within HJ (by
intent) and so continued to be acceptable.


I have (so far) found just one reference to HJ in the relevant BBC reports 
that I know of.  This is in BBC RD 1979/25: "Spherical harmonic analysis 
and some applications to surround sound".  This report discusses the M, S 
and T components of a sound field (W, Y, X to us).  It remarks that it is 
not easy to convert from pair-wise panned signals to MST, but that both can 
be fed to a System HJ (13LP2) encoder with satisfactory results.  A diagram 
shows on the HJ tolerance diagram the two loci for pairwise panned-potted 
and hypercardioid signals, apparently defined by "option 13LP2 of HJ".  It 
then gives a detailed analytical account of the Soundfield microphone 
(after remarking that the inventors had not).


Searching for 13LP2 and HJ together showed me just one paper, which I don't 
have access to.  The abstract is here:  (it's in the 
IEEE library, if you don't like abbreviated URLs).  The abstract says it 
describes the hierarchical UHJ system, and then goes on: "The design and 
development of the 424 System HJ is discussed in some detail, although this 
paper necessarily only gives a brief account of the many facets of this 
involved subject."  It looks as if this might be a useful paper for those 
interested in HJ to read.


Paul


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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

Ah, i did read that in the document, but what put me off was the date it was 
published, which was at the start of the 'H' transmissions, but it's certainly 
a very good point.

But (and I'm playing devils advocate here) how would that account for the 15 
degree offset seen when comparing 'H' and 'HJ' recordings

Richard
  > Again, if it's a tweaked 'H' it had to be encoded. All I'm looking for is
  > that equation.

  It could well be that the BBC made no change at all to their Matrix-H 
  encoding as a result of the publication of HJ.  H fell within HJ (by 
  intent) and so continued to be acceptable.

  As for the tweaking of H, my understanding, from re-reading some BBC 
  reports on the matter just now, is that the encoding matrix for H was not 
  tweaked, but that the decode was.  There was a standard decode, and there 
  was a "phase-modified" (their term) decoder (the second one shown in the 
  quad blog) which altered the compromise between phasiness and apparent 
  separation.  This is discussed (along with logic decoders) in: BBC RD 
  1977/2 "QUADRAPHONY: developments in Matrix H decoding".  The "phase 
  modified" decode is not assessed separately in the report, but is simply 
  stated to be an improvement:

  "It is seen that the separation figures remain unchanged, but since these 
  are small, the comparatively small changes in the relative phase angles of 
  the cross-talk signals noticeably improve the subjective performance of the 
  decoder."

  I think it would be pretty safe to assume that all BBC tapes encoded with H 
  are encoded the same, and that we have a choice of BBC-designed decoders to 
  decide between according to our preference. The report inclines towards one 
  of the logic decoders, but also mentions some anomalies (sibilance in a 
  different position from lower frequencies, for instance).  On that basis, 
  using the "phase modified" linear decoder would seem to be the best choice.

  Paul

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Paul Hodges]

--On 27 January 2012 19:01 + Paul Hodges  
wrote:



I think it would be pretty safe to assume that all BBC tapes encoded with
H are encoded the same,


I meant to type "H or HJ", of course.

Paul

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Paul Hodges]

--On 27 January 2012 18:04 + Richard  wrote:


Again, if it's a tweaked 'H' it had to be encoded. All I'm looking for is
that equation.


It could well be that the BBC made no change at all to their Matrix-H 
encoding as a result of the publication of HJ.  H fell within HJ (by 
intent) and so continued to be acceptable.


As for the tweaking of H, my understanding, from re-reading some BBC 
reports on the matter just now, is that the encoding matrix for H was not 
tweaked, but that the decode was.  There was a standard decode, and there 
was a "phase-modified" (their term) decoder (the second one shown in the 
quad blog) which altered the compromise between phasiness and apparent 
separation.  This is discussed (along with logic decoders) in: BBC RD 
1977/2 "QUADRAPHONY: developments in Matrix H decoding".  The "phase 
modified" decode is not assessed separately in the report, but is simply 
stated to be an improvement:


"It is seen that the separation figures remain unchanged, but since these 
are small, the comparatively small changes in the relative phase angles of 
the cross-talk signals noticeably improve the subjective performance of the 
decoder."


I think it would be pretty safe to assume that all BBC tapes encoded with H 
are encoded the same, and that we have a choice of BBC-designed decoders to 
decide between according to our preference. The report inclines towards one 
of the logic decoders, but also mentions some anomalies (sibilance in a 
different position from lower frequencies, for instance).  On that basis, 
using the "phase modified" linear decoder would seem to be the best choice.


Paul

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

Maybe it's just me, but I've read that before, and I don't read anywhere where 
it says HJ is UHJ. From what I've read elsewhere, the phase angles of the front 
channels were tweaked to create 'HJ'

Then came along UHJ.

Maybe I'm wrong and it's either a poorly written document, or I haven't a clue.

Again, if it's a tweaked 'H' it had to be encoded. All I'm looking for is that 
equation.

I'll admit I've not attempted to decode it as UHJ, I tried that with 'H' ages 
ago, and that was awful


  "Richard" 
  > The thing is that Matrix HJ isn't UHJ, nor compatible with it. That much,
  > I've discovered. It's only 45J that's "compatible"

  Why do you think that?  The ENcoding
  zones for HJ are described in Figure 1
  (Page 4) of the paper at:
  
http://decoy.iki.fi/dsound/ambisonic/motherlode/source/Encoding%20standards%20for%20NRDC%20Universal%20HJ%201977.pdf

  The DEcoder described in the same
  paper is a UHJ decoder.

  The paper is dated 22 November 1977,
  and has already been suggested to you
  by Eero Aro through this list.


  Paul Hodges  wrote:

  > --On 27 January 2012 15:03 + Richard  wrote:
  >> I'm surprised that the altered equation used wasn't ever written down
  >> anywhere.
  >
  > Was there actually a specific altered equation anyway?  Given that the
  > definition of HJ used tolerance zones, how would it be have been
  > decided on?

  And the zones are in the paper described
  above.

  Regards,
  Martin
  -- 
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  E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
  Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Geoffrey Barton]

On 27 Jan 2012, at 17:00, sursound-requ...@music.vt.edu wrote:
> 
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:46:59 +
> From: Paul Hodges 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Message-ID: <628e491ec63e5d5f64b57...@octo-133.clinpharm.ox.ac.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> --On 27 January 2012 15:03 + Richard  wrote:
> 
>> I'm surprised that the altered equation used wasn't ever written down
>> anywhere. 
> 
> Was there actually a specific altered equation anyway?  Given that the
> definition of HJ used tolerance zones, how would it be have been
> decided on?

Paul is quite right, the 'compromise' HJ was a set of tolerance zones drawn on 
the energy sphere. It was designed to allow various 'production techniques'  
used by the BBC to still remain within the specification. The version used by 
us, the Reading group, was a kernel specification UHJ (not 45J BTW, actually 
more like 35J) and fell within the zones too.

The IBA only used UHJ per our spec together with their brilliant (JH designed) 
3 channel FM multiplexer for their broadcasts.

Geoffrey


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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Martin Leese]

"Richard" 
> The thing is that Matrix HJ isn't UHJ, nor compatible with it. That much,
> I've discovered. It's only 45J that's "compatible"

Why do you think that?  The ENcoding
zones for HJ are described in Figure 1
(Page 4) of the paper at:
http://decoy.iki.fi/dsound/ambisonic/motherlode/source/Encoding%20standards%20for%20NRDC%20Universal%20HJ%201977.pdf

The DEcoder described in the same
paper is a UHJ decoder.

The paper is dated 22 November 1977,
and has already been suggested to you
by Eero Aro through this list.


Paul Hodges  wrote:

> --On 27 January 2012 15:03 + Richard  wrote:
>> I'm surprised that the altered equation used wasn't ever written down
>> anywhere.
>
> Was there actually a specific altered equation anyway?  Given that the
> definition of HJ used tolerance zones, how would it be have been
> decided on?

And the zones are in the paper described
above.

Regards,
Martin
-- 
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E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

Then how would/could it be encoded?


  > I'm surprised that the altered equation used wasn't ever written down
  > anywhere. 

  Was there actually a specific altered equation anyway?  Given that the
  definition of HJ used tolerance zones, how would it be have been
  decided on?

  Paul

  -- 
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Paul Hodges]

--On 27 January 2012 15:03 + Richard  wrote:

> I'm surprised that the altered equation used wasn't ever written down
> anywhere. 

Was there actually a specific altered equation anyway?  Given that the
definition of HJ used tolerance zones, how would it be have been
decided on?

Paul

-- 
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

The thing is that Matrix HJ isn't UHJ, nor compatible with it. That much, I've 
discovered. It's only 45J that's "compatible"

I'm surprised that the altered equation used wasn't ever written down anywhere. 

  For an individual recording, it should be
  possible to determine the encoding by
  measurement (he said with total ignorance).

  Matrix H has a 48 degree phase angle
  between the two channels.  As Paul points out,
  HJ was variable, coming as low as 30 degrees.
  So, if the measured phase discrepancy is
  close to 48 degrees then use a Matrix H
  decoder.  If it is less than this then use a UHJ
  decoder.  (If it is close to zero then there is no
  encoding, and it is plain stereo.)

  All you need now is to work out how to make
  the measurement.  This step has been left as
  an exercise for the reader.:-)

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Martin Leese]

Paul Hodges  wrote:

> --On 25 January 2012 20:04 + Richard  wrote:
>> But was BBC ever using either of the formats officially?
>
> And given that HJ was defined to include within its tolerance zones both H
> and 45J, they could by definition have simply continued using existing H
> equipment and labelling the results HJ.

Matrix H and HJ were only ever experimental.
(The BBC was making official experiments.)

"Richard"  wrote:
...
> I've the feeling I've more chance of finding the Holy Grail than find the
> truth behind the H/HJ story

For an individual recording, it should be
possible to determine the encoding by
measurement (he said with total ignorance).

Matrix H has a 48 degree phase angle
between the two channels.  As Paul points out,
HJ was variable, coming as low as 30 degrees.
So, if the measured phase discrepancy is
close to 48 degrees then use a Matrix H
decoder.  If it is less than this then use a UHJ
decoder.  (If it is close to zero then there is no
encoding, and it is plain stereo.)

All you need now is to work out how to make
the measurement.  This step has been left as
an exercise for the reader.:-)

Regards,
Martin
-- 
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E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

I know what you mean  LOL

I've the feeling I've more chance of finding the Holy Grail than find the truth 
behind the H/HJ story


  They just specified slight changes in resistors and capacitors, not the 
formulae as such. In fact, 
  when I looked at the Integrex the other day, the label had fallen off and I'm 
no longer sure if it 
  was the 45J or the H position that was modified and the documentation that 
has survived is not clear 
  on the subject. I have a vague memory (_really_ vague after three and a half 
decades!) that I had to 
  phone them up and ask, so it maybe that it was never in the documentation.

  Dave

  On 26/01/2012 11:30, Richard wrote:
  > Don't suppose, by any chance, you'd still have details of the changes that 
were made. Did they supply any information on the equation changes?
  >
  >
  > Richard
  >
  >
  >Paul has probably put his finger on it but unfortunately, unless one of 
the
  >remaining few people who were involved back then have the info, we would
  >probably have to find the original BBC tapes, since they tended to be
  >reasonably well documented. The information might be somewhere in 
Michael's
  >documentation, but I don't have access to that, and I don't think I have
  >the tapes.  Although some did come to me through the John Hayes and Peter
  >Fellgett collections, I don't remember seeing any BBC ones other the
  >Charles + Di wedding ones. Of the people on this group, the one most 
likely
  >to know is Geoffrey Barton. Otherwise, does anyone know if Bob Harrison 
(of
  >the BBC, who seemed most closely involved with the Soundfield experiments
  >in the late 70's) is still around and contactable? He might know. On the
  >data for HJ, the November 1977 one seems most likely, as I seem to 
remember
  >getting a correction to my Integrex decoder to make matrix H into HJ - 
and
  >we bought the kit as soon as it became available.
  >
  >  Dave
  >
  >On 25 January 2012 22:58, Paul Hodges  wrote:
  >
  >>  --On 25 January 2012 20:04 + Richard  
wrote:
  >>
  >>   But was BBC ever using either of the formats officially?
  >>>
  >>
  >>  And given that HJ was defined to include within its tolerance zones 
both H
  >>  and 45J, they could by definition have simply continued using 
existing H
  >>  equipment and labelling the results HJ.
  >>
  >>  Paul
  >>
  >>  --
  >>  Paul Hodges
  >>
  >>
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https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound
  >>
  >
  >
  >
  >-- 
  >
  >These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer
  >
  >Dave Malham
  >Music Research Centre
  >Department of Music
  >The University of York
  >Heslington
  >York YO10 5DD
  >UK
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  >Fax 01904 322450
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Dave Malham]

They just specified slight changes in resistors and capacitors, not the formulae as such. In fact, 
when I looked at the Integrex the other day, the label had fallen off and I'm no longer sure if it 
was the 45J or the H position that was modified and the documentation that has survived is not clear 
on the subject. I have a vague memory (_really_ vague after three and a half decades!) that I had to 
phone them up and ask, so it maybe that it was never in the documentation.


   Dave

On 26/01/2012 11:30, Richard wrote:

Don't suppose, by any chance, you'd still have details of the changes that were 
made. Did they supply any information on the equation changes?


Richard


   Paul has probably put his finger on it but unfortunately, unless one of the
   remaining few people who were involved back then have the info, we would
   probably have to find the original BBC tapes, since they tended to be
   reasonably well documented. The information might be somewhere in Michael's
   documentation, but I don't have access to that, and I don't think I have
   the tapes.  Although some did come to me through the John Hayes and Peter
   Fellgett collections, I don't remember seeing any BBC ones other the
   Charles + Di wedding ones. Of the people on this group, the one most likely
   to know is Geoffrey Barton. Otherwise, does anyone know if Bob Harrison (of
   the BBC, who seemed most closely involved with the Soundfield experiments
   in the late 70's) is still around and contactable? He might know. On the
   data for HJ, the November 1977 one seems most likely, as I seem to remember
   getting a correction to my Integrex decoder to make matrix H into HJ - and
   we bought the kit as soon as it became available.

 Dave

   On 25 January 2012 22:58, Paul Hodges  wrote:

   >  --On 25 January 2012 20:04 + Richard  wrote:
   >
   >   But was BBC ever using either of the formats officially?
   >>
   >
   >  And given that HJ was defined to include within its tolerance zones both H
   >  and 45J, they could by definition have simply continued using existing H
   >  equipment and labelling the results HJ.
   >
   >  Paul
   >
   >  --
   >  Paul Hodges
   >
   >
   >  __**_
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   >  Sursound@music.vt.edu
   >  
https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound
   >



   -- 


   These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer

   Dave Malham
   Music Research Centre
   Department of Music
   The University of York
   Heslington
   York YO10 5DD
   UK
   Phone 01904 322448
   Fax 01904 322450
   'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
   
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/* Music Research Centre */
/* Department of Music"http://music.york.ac.uk/";   */
/* The University of York  Phone 01904 322448*/
/* Heslington  Fax   01904 322450*/
/* York YO10 5DD */
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

Don't suppose, by any chance, you'd still have details of the changes that were 
made. Did they supply any information on the equation changes?


Richard


  Paul has probably put his finger on it but unfortunately, unless one of the
  remaining few people who were involved back then have the info, we would
  probably have to find the original BBC tapes, since they tended to be
  reasonably well documented. The information might be somewhere in Michael's
  documentation, but I don't have access to that, and I don't think I have
  the tapes.  Although some did come to me through the John Hayes and Peter
  Fellgett collections, I don't remember seeing any BBC ones other the
  Charles + Di wedding ones. Of the people on this group, the one most likely
  to know is Geoffrey Barton. Otherwise, does anyone know if Bob Harrison (of
  the BBC, who seemed most closely involved with the Soundfield experiments
  in the late 70's) is still around and contactable? He might know. On the
  data for HJ, the November 1977 one seems most likely, as I seem to remember
  getting a correction to my Integrex decoder to make matrix H into HJ - and
  we bought the kit as soon as it became available.

Dave

  On 25 January 2012 22:58, Paul Hodges  wrote:

  > --On 25 January 2012 20:04 + Richard  wrote:
  >
  >  But was BBC ever using either of the formats officially?
  >>
  >
  > And given that HJ was defined to include within its tolerance zones both H
  > and 45J, they could by definition have simply continued using existing H
  > equipment and labelling the results HJ.
  >
  > Paul
  >
  > --
  > Paul Hodges
  >
  >
  > __**_
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  > Sursound@music.vt.edu
  > 
https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound
  >



  -- 

  These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer

  Dave Malham 
  Music Research Centre
  Department of Music
  The University of York
  Heslington
  York YO10 5DD
  UK
  Phone 01904 322448
  Fax 01904 322450
  'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
  
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Dave Malham]

Paul has probably put his finger on it but unfortunately, unless one of the
remaining few people who were involved back then have the info, we would
probably have to find the original BBC tapes, since they tended to be
reasonably well documented. The information might be somewhere in Michael's
documentation, but I don't have access to that, and I don't think I have
the tapes.  Although some did come to me through the John Hayes and Peter
Fellgett collections, I don't remember seeing any BBC ones other the
Charles + Di wedding ones. Of the people on this group, the one most likely
to know is Geoffrey Barton. Otherwise, does anyone know if Bob Harrison (of
the BBC, who seemed most closely involved with the Soundfield experiments
in the late 70's) is still around and contactable? He might know. On the
data for HJ, the November 1977 one seems most likely, as I seem to remember
getting a correction to my Integrex decoder to make matrix H into HJ - and
we bought the kit as soon as it became available.

  Dave

On 25 January 2012 22:58, Paul Hodges  wrote:

> --On 25 January 2012 20:04 + Richard  wrote:
>
>  But was BBC ever using either of the formats officially?
>>
>
> And given that HJ was defined to include within its tolerance zones both H
> and 45J, they could by definition have simply continued using existing H
> equipment and labelling the results HJ.
>
> Paul
>
> --
> Paul Hodges
>
>
> __**_
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound
>



-- 

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer

Dave Malham 
Music Research Centre
Department of Music
The University of York
Heslington
York YO10 5DD
UK
Phone 01904 322448
Fax 01904 322450
'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Paul Hodges]

--On 25 January 2012 20:04 + Richard  wrote:


But was BBC ever using either of the formats officially?


And given that HJ was defined to include within its tolerance zones both H 
and 45J, they could by definition have simply continued using existing H 
equipment and labelling the results HJ.


Paul

--
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Eero Aro]

Richard:

Curious to have a CD that is encoded in Matrix H after 1982


In that case it's my mistake. There is no indication on the CD
about the format. I have just thought that it was H-Matrix.
(Thought already more than 20 years ago.)

So - could it have been HJ then? Not UHJ, anyway?

I remember having seen the vinyl. (I think) it had a mention about the
format...

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

Curious to have a CD that is encoded in Matrix H after 1982


  Martin, thanks! Great!

  The Proms H-matrix CD is this one:

   - BBC Singers, BBC Symphony Chorus, BBC Symphony Orchestra, -
   Highlights from the Last Night of the Proms, cond. Sir Charles
   Groves, James Loughran. Live from the Royal Albert Hall, BBC
   Records CD 58OX (England), H-matrix. Tracks 1-2 recorded in
   Sept. 1977,Tracks 3-7 recorded 1982.
   The recordings on this CD conducted by Charles Groves were
   originally released on vinyl as "Highlights from the Last
   Night of the Proms" issued as BBC Records REH290.

  Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

The BBC actually listed any programs that were Quad as Stereo/Quad, but I don't 
remember there being any mention of the system apart from when broadcasts 
started, and Radio Times did a feature on it


  Richard wrote:
  > I'm surprised
  > there's no official BBC papers on the matter

  But was BBC ever using either of the formats officially?
  At least they never transmitted UHJ officially and telling the
  audience about the encoding wasn't allowed.

  Maybe it was all experimental and just testing the possible formats?
  After all, it was the decay era of the actual quad formats. NRDC never
  got through their suggestion about using UHJ as a quad radio transmission
  format.

  Was it the BBC that carried out the test transmissions, or was it the IBA,
  who had built all the experimental equipment?

  Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Eero Aro]

Richard wrote:

I'm surprised
there's no official BBC papers on the matter


But was BBC ever using either of the formats officially?
At least they never transmitted UHJ officially and telling the
audience about the encoding wasn't allowed.

Maybe it was all experimental and just testing the possible formats?
After all, it was the decay era of the actual quad formats. NRDC never
got through their suggestion about using UHJ as a quad radio transmission
format.

Was it the BBC that carried out the test transmissions, or was it the IBA,
who had built all the experimental equipment?

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Eero Aro]

Martin, thanks! Great!

The Proms H-matrix CD is this one:

-   BBC Singers, BBC Symphony Chorus, BBC Symphony Orchestra, -
Highlights from the Last Night of the Proms, cond. Sir Charles
Groves, James Loughran. Live from the Royal Albert Hall, BBC
Records CD 58OX (England), H-matrix. Tracks 1-2 recorded in
Sept. 1977,Tracks 3-7 recorded 1982.
The recordings on this CD conducted by Charles Groves were
originally released on vinyl as "Highlights from the Last
Night of the Proms" issued as BBC Records REH290.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

I don't suppose there's a record of what was said. I'm surprised there's no 
official BBC papers on the matter

The odd thing is that one of the recordings I've been sent has Alan Freeman 
(sadly missed) saying the broadcast is in Matrix H, and this was May 1978.

Was he right, or possibly didn't know of the change, or.?


  An announcement of the shift was published
  in New Scientist on 5 November 1977.
  Unfortunately this does not tell you when the
  BBC switched broadcasting from H to HJ.

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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Martin Leese]

On 1/25/12, Martin Leese  wrote:

> "Richard"  wrote:
> ...
>> So, here's the issue i now have. I've been sent 4 tapes of BBC quad
>> broadcasts, and the person who sent them says they are in HJ. Does anyone
>> know when the BBC switched from H to HJ?
>
> An announcement of the shift was published
> in New Scientist on 5 November 1977.
> Unfortunately this does not tell you when the
> BBC switched broadcasting from H to HJ.

I lied.  The short note in New Scientist begins:
   "The BBC has now formally confirmed what
has been apparent to astute stereo-radio
audiences for a month or more."

So the answer to your question is a month or
more before 5 November 1977.

Regards,
Martin
-- 
Martin J Leese
E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Martin Leese]

"Richard"  wrote:
...
> So, here's the issue i now have. I've been sent 4 tapes of BBC quad
> broadcasts, and the person who sent them says they are in HJ. Does anyone
> know when the BBC switched from H to HJ?

An announcement of the shift was published
in New Scientist on 5 November 1977.
Unfortunately this does not tell you when the
BBC switched broadcasting from H to HJ.

Eero Aro  wrote:

> It's a pity taht the Ambisonic Discography is down. You could check
> it from there right away.

With Mark Anderson's permission, I have
made the UHJ discography available on my
website at:
http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/Ambisonic/

Regards,
Martin
-- 
Martin J Leese
E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Rev Tony Newnham]

Hi

Sorry - can't help with that, but I do remember listening to a couple of the
earlier experimental surround broadcasts using 2 discrete frequencies for
front and rear - that would have been 1974 or 5 IIRC.

Every Blessing

Tony

> -Original Message-
> From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
On
> Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: 25 January 2012 14:32
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt
> 
> Hi again guys
> 
> I'm really sorry for the continued questions regarding thwe same subject,
but
> i'm having problems in finding where else where people know anything
factual
> about the BBC's matrix H & HJ Quad experiments form 1977 & 1978
> 
> So, here's the issue i now have. I've been sent 4 tapes of BBC quad
> broadcasts, and the person who sent them says they are in HJ. Does anyone
know
> when the BBC switched from H to HJ?
> 
> 
> Since successfully finished the SQ & QS project, it's time i dealt with
H/HJ
> once and for all.
> 
> Anyone here remeber anything?
> 
> Richard
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Eero Aro]

Richard wrote:


I know the BBC did broadcast some of the Proms in either H or HJ,
it's a real shame there's nobody I could contact at the BBC who might
have more info. It's another thing that needs archiving, or it'll be
lost forever


It's a pity taht the Ambisonic Discography is down. You could check
it from there right away. I have just changed the computer and my
backup is in the old PC hard drive.

There is a commercial recording of one of the concerts. It's either this:

Highlights from the last night of the Proms
BBC CD 580X
(includes recordings from 1977, 1982 and 1985. Or - maybe the release
was published in 1985. Ooh...

or this:

The last night of the Proms
Philips 420 085-2
Recorded 1969 and 1972

Only one of those CD:s includes Ambisonic material, the other is plain
two channel stereo. If it's the BBC publication (which was first published
as an LP, naturally), then you should be looking at years 82 and 85.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

Yes'ive seen the BBC document, but the IBA ones new to me.

I know the BBC did broadcast some of the Proms in either H or HJ, it's a real 
shame there's nobody I could contact at the BBC who might have more info. It's 
another thing that needs archiving, or it'll be lost forever


Richard
  Richard wrote:

  > Anyone here remeber anything?

  Eeh, half past nine...

  :-)

  - - -

  This article is from the same time, IBA tests:
  
http://decoy.iki.fi/dsound/ambisonic/motherlode/source/Ambisonic%20an%20operational%20insight_Chris%20Daubney_Studio%20Sound_1982%20.pdf

  You possibly have this:
  
http://decoy.iki.fi/dsound/ambisonic/motherlode/source/BBC_MATRIX-H_1977-02.pdf

  You'd better shuffle through the motherlode, there's more...

  I need to dig out the CD of one of the Proms. That year the BBC
  transmitted at least a part of the concert series in surround.
  Now - was that H-Matrix or what. Wait...

  Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Eero Aro]

Richard wrote:


Anyone here remeber anything?


Eeh, half past nine...

:-)

- - -

This article is from the same time, IBA tests:
http://decoy.iki.fi/dsound/ambisonic/motherlode/source/Ambisonic%20an%20operational%20insight_Chris%20Daubney_Studio%20Sound_1982%20.pdf

You possibly have this:
http://decoy.iki.fi/dsound/ambisonic/motherlode/source/BBC_MATRIX-H_1977-02.pdf

You'd better shuffle through the motherlode, there's more...

I need to dig out the CD of one of the Proms. That year the BBC
transmitted at least a part of the concert series in surround.
Now - was that H-Matrix or what. Wait...

Eero
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[Sursound] Me again - on the H/HJ hunt

[Richard]

Hi again guys

I'm really sorry for the continued questions regarding thwe same subject, but 
i'm having problems in finding where else where people know anything factual 
about the BBC's matrix H & HJ Quad experiments form 1977 & 1978

So, here's the issue i now have. I've been sent 4 tapes of BBC quad broadcasts, 
and the person who sent them says they are in HJ. Does anyone know when the BBC 
switched from H to HJ?


Since successfully finished the SQ & QS project, it's time i dealt with H/HJ 
once and for all.

Anyone here remeber anything?

Richard
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