Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Dave Malham]

That makes sense. Thanks.

   Dave

On 31 October 2015 at 16:50, Geoffrey Barton  wrote:

> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:24:23 +
> > From: Dave Malham 
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sursound Digest, Vol 87, Issue 20
> > Message-ID:
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Well, I tracked down at least one source for my memory - the pdf of what
> is
> > claimed to be the"original design documents" for the Minim AD7, which can
> > be found here - https://sites.google.com/site/minimdecoders/
> > Not that it tells you much - just a section (on page 9) on what you can
> > expect out of a "Variable Preference Decoder" for "Normal UHJ", "Fwd UHJ"
>
> that's 'variable preference', which is the Minim pro design (I forget the
> number) and the A+D design. Not 'variable  directional preference'
>
> > and "Bkwrd UHJ" In fact, this doesn't seem to relate to the design
> > presented - maybe it was included in the scan accidentally.
>
> I gave Martin that part as the bottom of the page refers to the AD7 design.
>
> Geoffrey
> >
> >
> > 
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-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Dave Malham]

That was a rather expensive mistake of the student, putting 240v onto the
5v rail on that, then :-)

 Dave

On 31 October 2015 at 17:00, Geoffrey Barton <geoffreybar...@mac.com> wrote:

> >>
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:40:08 +
> > From: Dave Malham <dave.mal...@york.ac.uk>
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD
> > Message-ID:
> ><CAPw+1zT+_E1JbYX4q+5nELsSLOugKm=4pfqbg6atybzgu1u...@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Kind of thought it might be that - purely manual,
>
> no
>
> > or was there any signal
> > dependent stuff going on?
>
> Very much so, it was a multiband design with much detection logic and
> VCAs. It took up a half width rack box, 7 or 8 boards as I recall.
>
> Geoffrey
> >
> >
> > 
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-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Geoffrey Barton]

> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:24:23 +
> From: Dave Malham 
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sursound Digest, Vol 87, Issue 20
> Message-ID:
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Well, I tracked down at least one source for my memory - the pdf of what is
> claimed to be the"original design documents" for the Minim AD7, which can
> be found here - https://sites.google.com/site/minimdecoders/
> Not that it tells you much - just a section (on page 9) on what you can
> expect out of a "Variable Preference Decoder" for "Normal UHJ", "Fwd UHJ"

that's 'variable preference', which is the Minim pro design (I forget the 
number) and the A+D design. Not 'variable  directional preference'

> and "Bkwrd UHJ" In fact, this doesn't seem to relate to the design
> presented - maybe it was included in the scan accidentally.

I gave Martin that part as the bottom of the page refers to the AD7 design.

Geoffrey
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Geoffrey Barton]

>> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 16:40:08 +
> From: Dave Malham <dave.mal...@york.ac.uk>
> To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD
> Message-ID:
><CAPw+1zT+_E1JbYX4q+5nELsSLOugKm=4pfqbg6atybzgu1u...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Kind of thought it might be that - purely manual,

no

> or was there any signal
> dependent stuff going on?

Very much so, it was a multiband design with much detection logic and VCAs. It 
took up a half width rack box, 7 or 8 boards as I recall.

Geoffrey 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Geoffrey Barton]

> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 13:44:35 -0400
> From: "Ronald C.F. Antony" <r...@cubiculum.com>
> To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD
> Message-ID: <8831d411-7334-4736-86a5-a450b42df...@cubiculum.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> On Oct 29, 2015, at 12:22, Geoffrey Barton <geoffreybar...@mac.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Oct 29, 2015, at 04:41, Dave Malham <dave.mal...@york.ac.uk> wrote:
>> 
>>> Going back to this old theme, something which slipped under my radar but
>>> reappeared when I was re-reading the Integrex decoder articles was
>>> Michael's throw-away statement on page 3 that "...a fully fledged ambisonic
>>> 'variable matrix' design is under development for (such) specialist
>>> applications". Does anyone (Geof Barton, Peter Craven, Peter Carbines,
>>> Richard lee...) remember this or know anything about it - certainly nothing
>>> remains in my memory, even if it was there in the first place.
>> 
>> Certainly. It was called the 'VDP' decoder, 'Variable Directional 
>> Preference'.
>> 
>> Michael and I had great fun with that; it revealed all sorts of detail in 
>> stereo recordings played through it, quite apart from the effect on UHJ.
>> I believe that, some time after I left the Cybernetics dept, to quote Peter 
>> Fellgett, 'a student destroyed it by connecting 240v into the 5v supply'.
> 
> Any relation to what Meridian calls ?SuperStereo??

no


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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Dave Malham]

Kind of thought it might be that - purely manual, or was there any signal
dependent stuff going on?

Dave

On 30 October 2015 at 16:13, Geoffrey Barton  wrote:

>
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:58:34 +
> > From: Dave Malham 
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sursound Digest, Vol 87, Issue 20
> > Message-ID:
> >   <
> capw+1zqb2hl_mpro1dgl44pctu81uupstxq6kwmh3whkw2p...@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Hi Geofrey,
> >Thanks for the info - now you mention it, VDP strikes a faint chord in
> > my memory, I wonder if maybe either Michael or Peter mentioned at some
> > point when we talking all those years ago.
> >
> > Of course, you know what's going to happen next - someone is going to ask
> > for design info.
>
> I think we wrote an AES about it.
>
> but the clue is in the name. Start with the 'preference' bit, usually
> 'forward preference', now allow it to point in any direction over 360
> degrees (indeed 4∏ steradians :-)
>
>
>
> Geoffrey
>
>
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-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Geoffrey Barton]

> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:58:34 +
> From: Dave Malham 
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sursound Digest, Vol 87, Issue 20
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Hi Geofrey,
>Thanks for the info - now you mention it, VDP strikes a faint chord in
> my memory, I wonder if maybe either Michael or Peter mentioned at some
> point when we talking all those years ago.
> 
> Of course, you know what's going to happen next - someone is going to ask
> for design info.

I think we wrote an AES about it. 

but the clue is in the name. Start with the 'preference' bit, usually 'forward 
preference', now allow it to point in any direction over 360 degrees (indeed 4∏ 
steradians :-)



Geoffrey


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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Geoffrey Barton]

> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:07:59 +
> From: Peter Lennox <p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
> To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD
> Message-ID:
>   
> <28f33490c302424e98cc6dc2531b2048010969e41...@mkt-mbx01.university.ds.derby.ac.uk>
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> 
> or does it bear some relationship to variable order panning (I remember my 
> colleague Bruce Wiggins's  work on higher order ambisonic panning for 
> decoding to 5.1)?

no, it is purely a decoding technique, mainly for 2 channel material. In 1977 
it was very hard to do

Geoffrey
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Dave Malham]

Going back to this old theme, something which slipped under my radar but
reappeared when I was re-reading the Integrex decoder articles was
Michael's throw-away statement on page 3 that "...a fully fledged ambisonic
'variable matrix' design is under development for (such) specialist
applications". Does anyone (Geof Barton, Peter Craven, Peter Carbines,
Richard lee...) remember this or know anything about it - certainly nothing
remains in my memory, even if it was there in the first place.

Dave

PS The "specialist applications" alluded to were things like surround
presented drama where good single sound localization is desired, even at
the expense of musicality or listener fatigue.

On 21 October 2015 at 19:32, <tryp...@comcast.net> wrote:

> I have that decoder (Integrex) to which I did some minor updates, mainly
> in the power supply.
> SQ playback is pleasant, with good localization and low phasiness (FWIW,
> IMHO)
> Giovanni Abrate
>
> -Original Message- From: Martin Leese
> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 1:48 PM
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD
>
> David Pickett wrote:
>
> I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording,
>> but I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results
>> playing them out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.
>>
>> My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
>> decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
>> presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
>> recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
>> can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.
>>
>
> MAG's distaste for SQ is well documented,
> and in December 1977 there was even a fight
> between him and Benjamin Bauer on the
> pages of New Scientist.  (This was refereed
> by Barry Fox (writing as Adrian Hope).)
>
> However, in July and August 1977 (refs at end),
> Gerzon published the design of an Ambisonic
> decoder that included an SQ mode (along with
> nine other modes).   In Part 1, Gerzon wrote:
>   "SQ decoders cannot be designed to give
>full ambisonic results; there is even a
>mathematical theorem to this effect.  The
>decoder for SQ provided is, however, less
>phasey in quality than the SQ designs on
>the market, and was designed specifically
>for incorporation into this design.  It is not
>in accordance with CBS Laboratories' SQ
>specification, but in the author's opinion, it
>is better than decoders that are."
>
> In Part 2, the equations for decoding SQ are
> given as:
>W'' = 0.73*Sum
>X'' = -0.73*j*Sum
>Y'' = 0.73*Diff - 0.73*j*Diff
>where Sum = Left + Right
>and Diff = Left - Right
>
> As far as I can tell, W'' is the W' signal after
> the shelf filters (and the SQ mode did not use
> shelf filters).  Also the W' signal appears to be
> the W signal after removal of the Sqrt(2)
> weighting.  Anyone interested in implementing
> this decoder will need to read the refs, which
> will be somewhere in the Ambisonic
> Motherlode.
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
> Michael Gerzon, "Multi-System Ambisonic
> Decoder":
>Part 1: "Basic Design Philosophy",
>Wireless World, vol. 83 no. 1499,
>pp. 43-47 (1977 July).
>Part 2: "Main Decoder Circuits",
>Wireless World, vol. 83 no. 1500,
>pp. 69-73 (1977 Aug.).
>later parts never written & published.
>
> --
> Martin J Leese
> E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
> Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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>



-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Dave Malham]

Hi Folks,
With all this talk about old systems (i.e. no longer being developed or
marketed) I did a bit of digging around and found this interesting site
http://www.quadraphonic.info/ which includes real service manuals (ie some
actually have circuit diagrams) for a number of different decoders as well
as various articles, etc. These include one from MAG on Anomalies In The SQ
System <http://www.quadraphonic.info/manuals/Anomalies_In_The_SQ_System.pdf>
which I don't ever remember seeing  (strangely, it's on the "Manuals"
page).

Anyway, that brought up another memory - wasn't someone trying, or thinking
about trying, to do a software implementation of the Integrex decoder some
time ago?

   Dave
<http://www.quadraphonic.info/manuals/Anomalies_In_The_SQ_System.pdf>

On 21 October 2015 at 19:32, <tryp...@comcast.net> wrote:

> I have that decoder (Integrex) to which I did some minor updates, mainly
> in the power supply.
> SQ playback is pleasant, with good localization and low phasiness (FWIW,
> IMHO)
> Giovanni Abrate
>
> -Original Message- From: Martin Leese
> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 1:48 PM
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD
>
> David Pickett wrote:
>
> I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording,
>> but I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results
>> playing them out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.
>>
>> My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
>> decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
>> presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
>> recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
>> can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.
>>
>
> MAG's distaste for SQ is well documented,
> and in December 1977 there was even a fight
> between him and Benjamin Bauer on the
> pages of New Scientist.  (This was refereed
> by Barry Fox (writing as Adrian Hope).)
>
> However, in July and August 1977 (refs at end),
> Gerzon published the design of an Ambisonic
> decoder that included an SQ mode (along with
> nine other modes).   In Part 1, Gerzon wrote:
>   "SQ decoders cannot be designed to give
>full ambisonic results; there is even a
>mathematical theorem to this effect.  The
>decoder for SQ provided is, however, less
>phasey in quality than the SQ designs on
>the market, and was designed specifically
>for incorporation into this design.  It is not
>in accordance with CBS Laboratories' SQ
>specification, but in the author's opinion, it
>is better than decoders that are."
>
> In Part 2, the equations for decoding SQ are
> given as:
>W'' = 0.73*Sum
>X'' = -0.73*j*Sum
>Y'' = 0.73*Diff - 0.73*j*Diff
>where Sum = Left + Right
>and Diff = Left - Right
>
> As far as I can tell, W'' is the W' signal after
> the shelf filters (and the SQ mode did not use
> shelf filters).  Also the W' signal appears to be
> the W signal after removal of the Sqrt(2)
> weighting.  Anyone interested in implementing
> this decoder will need to read the refs, which
> will be somewhere in the Ambisonic
> Motherlode.
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
> Michael Gerzon, "Multi-System Ambisonic
> Decoder":
>Part 1: "Basic Design Philosophy",
>Wireless World, vol. 83 no. 1499,
>pp. 43-47 (1977 July).
>Part 2: "Main Decoder Circuits",
>Wireless World, vol. 83 no. 1500,
>pp. 69-73 (1977 Aug.).
>later parts never written & published.
>
> --
> Martin J Leese
> E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
> Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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>



-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Augustine Leudar]

I'm intrigued now.

On Wednesday, 21 October 2015, Richard  wrote:
> That is very true, and there never will be.
>
> Spent to long on it to get it where they are now, and having had nothing
but negativity from certain areas regarding my work i fail to see why i
should share it with them.
>
> I did once share my work, in fact you and i have talked in the past, and
if you dig REALLY deep you'l find my earlly versions for SQ, which are at
least 1000% better than those two programs) but as others knew better i've
let them go their own way (which apears to be nowhere) and i've gone mine.
>
> The proof is in the pudding, as they say.
>
>
>
>
>   - don't feel that I have fallen into any trap, as I have never even
tried to
>   understand the quad matrix systems. I used surround sound in production
>   in my work in the 1990's and none of the matrix systems did what I
>   wanted.
>
>   I look forward to read from your blog, when you really reveal what the
>   "advanced and mysterious decoding systems" really keep inside.
>   Right now, I couldn't find any practical solutions that anyone could use
>   from your site. That is why people keep using the programmes that I
>   linked to.
>
>   Until then,
>
>   cheers
>
>   Eero
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Richard]

Thank you for proving my point 


  --On 21 October 2015 18:16 +0200 Jörn Nettingsmeier
   wrote:

  > I have a marvellous algorithm that will restore old shellacs to their
  > original 10-octaves full surround beauty, but since the world is what
  > it is, I'm not going to show it to you.

  Or maybe it won't fit in the margin of this email...

  Paul

  -- 
  Paul Hodges

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Jörn Nettingsmeier]

On 10/21/2015 03:14 PM, Richard wrote:

That is very true, and there never will be.



I have a marvellous algorithm that will restore old shellacs to their 
original 10-octaves full surround beauty, but since the world is what it 
is, I'm not going to show it to you.



--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Paul Hodges]

--On 21 October 2015 18:16 +0200 Jörn Nettingsmeier
 wrote:

> I have a marvellous algorithm that will restore old shellacs to their
> original 10-octaves full surround beauty, but since the world is what
> it is, I'm not going to show it to you.

Or maybe it won't fit in the margin of this email...

Paul

-- 
Paul Hodges

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Martin Leese]

David Pickett wrote:

> I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording,
> but I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results
> playing them out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.
>
> My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
> decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
> presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
> recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
> can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.

MAG's distaste for SQ is well documented,
and in December 1977 there was even a fight
between him and Benjamin Bauer on the
pages of New Scientist.  (This was refereed
by Barry Fox (writing as Adrian Hope).)

However, in July and August 1977 (refs at end),
Gerzon published the design of an Ambisonic
decoder that included an SQ mode (along with
nine other modes).   In Part 1, Gerzon wrote:
   "SQ decoders cannot be designed to give
full ambisonic results; there is even a
mathematical theorem to this effect.  The
decoder for SQ provided is, however, less
phasey in quality than the SQ designs on
the market, and was designed specifically
for incorporation into this design.  It is not
in accordance with CBS Laboratories' SQ
specification, but in the author's opinion, it
is better than decoders that are."

In Part 2, the equations for decoding SQ are
given as:
W'' = 0.73*Sum
X'' = -0.73*j*Sum
Y'' = 0.73*Diff - 0.73*j*Diff
where Sum = Left + Right
and Diff = Left - Right

As far as I can tell, W'' is the W' signal after
the shelf filters (and the SQ mode did not use
shelf filters).  Also the W' signal appears to be
the W signal after removal of the Sqrt(2)
weighting.  Anyone interested in implementing
this decoder will need to read the refs, which
will be somewhere in the Ambisonic
Motherlode.

Regards,
Martin

Michael Gerzon, "Multi-System Ambisonic
Decoder":
Part 1: "Basic Design Philosophy",
Wireless World, vol. 83 no. 1499,
pp. 43-47 (1977 July).
Part 2: "Main Decoder Circuits",
Wireless World, vol. 83 no. 1500,
pp. 69-73 (1977 Aug.).
later parts never written & published.

-- 
Martin J Leese
E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[tryphon]

I have that decoder (Integrex) to which I did some minor updates, mainly in 
the power supply.
SQ playback is pleasant, with good localization and low phasiness (FWIW, 
IMHO)

Giovanni Abrate

-Original Message- 
From: Martin Leese

Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 1:48 PM
To: sursound@music.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

David Pickett wrote:


I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording,
but I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results
playing them out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.

My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.


MAG's distaste for SQ is well documented,
and in December 1977 there was even a fight
between him and Benjamin Bauer on the
pages of New Scientist.  (This was refereed
by Barry Fox (writing as Adrian Hope).)

However, in July and August 1977 (refs at end),
Gerzon published the design of an Ambisonic
decoder that included an SQ mode (along with
nine other modes).   In Part 1, Gerzon wrote:
  "SQ decoders cannot be designed to give
   full ambisonic results; there is even a
   mathematical theorem to this effect.  The
   decoder for SQ provided is, however, less
   phasey in quality than the SQ designs on
   the market, and was designed specifically
   for incorporation into this design.  It is not
   in accordance with CBS Laboratories' SQ
   specification, but in the author's opinion, it
   is better than decoders that are."

In Part 2, the equations for decoding SQ are
given as:
   W'' = 0.73*Sum
   X'' = -0.73*j*Sum
   Y'' = 0.73*Diff - 0.73*j*Diff
   where Sum = Left + Right
   and Diff = Left - Right

As far as I can tell, W'' is the W' signal after
the shelf filters (and the SQ mode did not use
shelf filters).  Also the W' signal appears to be
the W signal after removal of the Sqrt(2)
weighting.  Anyone interested in implementing
this decoder will need to read the refs, which
will be somewhere in the Ambisonic
Motherlode.

Regards,
Martin

Michael Gerzon, "Multi-System Ambisonic
Decoder":
   Part 1: "Basic Design Philosophy",
   Wireless World, vol. 83 no. 1499,
   pp. 43-47 (1977 July).
   Part 2: "Main Decoder Circuits",
   Wireless World, vol. 83 no. 1500,
   pp. 69-73 (1977 Aug.).
   later parts never written & published.

--
Martin J Leese
E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Richard]

I've done it, along with the QS one. Pretty awful really, he was spot on when 
he said that SQ was compatible with Ambisonics.

Of course i'd imagine that when he said it was better than SQ hardware decoders 
he was comparing it with a basic 10/40 non-logic decoder and certainly not 
against a Tate.




  David Pickett wrote:

  > I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording,
  > but I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results
  > playing them out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.
  >
  > My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
  > decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
  > presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
  > recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
  > can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.

  MAG's distaste for SQ is well documented,
  and in December 1977 there was even a fight
  between him and Benjamin Bauer on the
  pages of New Scientist.  (This was refereed
  by Barry Fox (writing as Adrian Hope).)

  However, in July and August 1977 (refs at end),
  Gerzon published the design of an Ambisonic
  decoder that included an SQ mode (along with
  nine other modes).   In Part 1, Gerzon wrote:
 "SQ decoders cannot be designed to give
  full ambisonic results; there is even a
  mathematical theorem to this effect.  The
  decoder for SQ provided is, however, less
  phasey in quality than the SQ designs on
  the market, and was designed specifically
  for incorporation into this design.  It is not
  in accordance with CBS Laboratories' SQ
  specification, but in the author's opinion, it
  is better than decoders that are."

  In Part 2, the equations for decoding SQ are
  given as:
  W'' = 0.73*Sum
  X'' = -0.73*j*Sum
  Y'' = 0.73*Diff - 0.73*j*Diff
  where Sum = Left + Right
  and Diff = Left - Right

  As far as I can tell, W'' is the W' signal after
  the shelf filters (and the SQ mode did not use
  shelf filters).  Also the W' signal appears to be
  the W signal after removal of the Sqrt(2)
  weighting.  Anyone interested in implementing
  this decoder will need to read the refs, which
  will be somewhere in the Ambisonic
  Motherlode.

  Regards,
  Martin

  Michael Gerzon, "Multi-System Ambisonic
  Decoder":
  Part 1: "Basic Design Philosophy",
  Wireless World, vol. 83 no. 1499,
  pp. 43-47 (1977 July).
  Part 2: "Main Decoder Circuits",
  Wireless World, vol. 83 no. 1500,
  pp. 69-73 (1977 Aug.).
  later parts never written & published.

  -- 
  Martin J Leese
  E-mail: martin.leese  stanfordalumni.org
  Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Eero Aro]

Aah, well...

I don't feel that I have fallen into any trap, as I have never even tried to
understand the quad matrix systems. I used surround sound in production
in my work in the 1990's and none of the matrix systems did what I
wanted.

I look forward to read from your blog, when you really reveal what the
"advanced and mysterious decoding systems" really keep inside.
Right now, I couldn't find any practical solutions that anyone could use
from your site. That is why people keep using the programmes that I
linked to.

Until then,

cheers

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Richard]

That is very true, and there never will be.

Spent to long on it to get it where they are now, and having had nothing but 
negativity from certain areas regarding my work i fail to see why i should 
share it with them.

I did once share my work, in fact you and i have talked in the past, and if you 
dig REALLY deep you'l find my earlly versions for SQ, which are at least 1000% 
better than those two programs) but as others knew better i've let them go 
their own way (which apears to be nowhere) and i've gone mine.

The proof is in the pudding, as they say.




  - don't feel that I have fallen into any trap, as I have never even tried 
to
  understand the quad matrix systems. I used surround sound in production
  in my work in the 1990's and none of the matrix systems did what I
  wanted.

  I look forward to read from your blog, when you really reveal what the
  "advanced and mysterious decoding systems" really keep inside.
  Right now, I couldn't find any practical solutions that anyone could use
  from your site. That is why people keep using the programmes that I
  linked to.

  Until then,

  cheers

  Eero
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Richard]

As i said, saying's one thing, actually doing is another.

There's a great deal more to decoding SQ & QS, my proces's are highly advanced 
and gives results approaching that of the original four channel master, which 
just just doing simple maths will not do (max 3db)

You have fallen into the same trap that everybody falls into, that of 
misunderstanding these old matrix systems and the complexity that lies within 
what appears to be a simple equation.

I was most fortunate to have a 'pen-pal' relationship with Ben while i was at 
college in the early 1970's and as been said here a few posts ago, yes he did 
bang on about SQ, but nobody actually bothered to really listen, and lost the 
chance to learn how interesting/complex SQ really was.

Perhaps you should listen to a 'Pheonix' so you can hear just how good SQ 
actualy was. The issue with the system (as well as QS) was that technology 
wasn't up to the job at the time, which gace them the bad names they aquired.

But, we're in the 21st century now...






  Richard wrote:
  > The basis for their work appears to be the many inacurate sites
  > filling the web with 'oh-so' wrong, ill informed inacurate
  > information.

  Well, this subject isn't much of my interests, but at least Stephan Hotto's
  decoder claims to use exactly the equations you are citing:

  Implemented Decoding Matrixes:

  SQ (CBS):
  LF = L
  RF = R
  LB = 0.707 * jL - 0.707 * R
  RB = 0.707 * L - 0.707 * jR

  http://www.hotto.de/software/quadrophonicmatrixdecoder.html

  Apart from that, I don't think see anything very "complicated" about that.
  (And I am very bad with mathematics.)

  Multipliers mean different gains, the needed phase shifts are simply +/- 90
  and +/- 180 degrees. There's plenty of phase-shifter plugins available 
  that do
  the job.

  Been there, done that in AudioMulch. Worked fine for me.

  Now, if you'd like to go the gain riding (logic, as they were called) 
  path of the
  analog decoders, that's where I raise my hands.

  Eero
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Eero Aro]

Richard wrote:

The basis for their work appears to be the many inacurate sites
filling the web with 'oh-so' wrong, ill informed inacurate
information.


Well, this subject isn't much of my interests, but at least Stephan Hotto's
decoder claims to use exactly the equations you are citing:

Implemented Decoding Matrixes:

SQ (CBS):
LF = L
RF = R
LB = 0.707 * jL - 0.707 * R
RB = 0.707 * L - 0.707 * jR

http://www.hotto.de/software/quadrophonicmatrixdecoder.html

Apart from that, I don't think see anything very "complicated" about that.
(And I am very bad with mathematics.)

Multipliers mean different gains, the needed phase shifts are simply +/- 90
and +/- 180 degrees. There's plenty of phase-shifter plugins available 
that do

the job.

Been there, done that in AudioMulch. Worked fine for me.

Now, if you'd like to go the gain riding (logic, as they were called) 
path of the

analog decoders, that's where I raise my hands.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Richard]

The basis for their work appears to be the many inacurate sites filling the web 
with 'oh-so' wrong, ill informed inacurate information.

I've had a bash at altering 'Wikipedia' in some areas but it's a thankless task 
trying to undo the masses of misinformation out there.

I've withdrawn into my little world watching as the world goes slowly 
mad.




  Richard,
  You say "the two software programs you've been provided links for don't 
decode it" Just out of curiosity, in what way do the two software decoders fail 
to properly decode SQ? My interest is purely academic, as I don't have any SQ 
source material.
  Eric Benjamin 


   On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 11:02 AM, David Pickett  
wrote:
 

   I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, 
  but I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today. I get pleasant results 
  playing them out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.

  My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ 
  decoder actually did. Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he 
  presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to 
  recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one 
  can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.

  Thanks in advant for any pointers.

  David

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Dave Malham]

An interesting site and resource - do hope you don't fall foul of the IP
sections of TTIP when (if???) it is ratified!

Dave

On 20 October 2015 at 20:17, Richard  wrote:

> Hi
>
> As some here know i've spent quite a bit of the last five years devoted to
> the accurate decoding of the 70's matrix systems, including SQ.
>
> Decoding SQ is far more complicated than people think and i'm sorry to say
> the two software programs you've been provided links for don't decode it,
> they are so wrong it's hard to know where to start.
>
> I run a blog devoted to the decoding of (almost) all of the matrix systems
> and making avilable high quality decodes of these original surround
> recordings. I don't normally like advertising it like this but if you'd
> care to pop along to it then contact me on the blog's email address if you
> have any questions.
>
> https://dreamingspiresquadarchive.wordpress.com/
>
>
>
>   I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording,
>   but I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results
>   playing them out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.
>
>   My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
>   decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
>   presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
>   recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
>   can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.
>
>   Thanks in advant for any pointers.
>
>   David
>
>   ___
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-- 

As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University.

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University

Dave Malham
Honorary Fellow, Department of Music
The University of York
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Eero Aro]

Richard wrote:


the two software programs you've been provided links for don't
decode it, they are so wrong it's hard to know where to start.


snip


I don't normally like advertising it like this


Well, sometimes it is good idea to to advertise. I have never heard of
your blog and would have never known. I only know about those two
programs and the cumbersome procedures people developed to decode
SQ with Audition.

I have a small pile of quad vinyls as well.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Eero Aro]

There's another:

http://www-user.rhrk.uni-kl.de/~junglas/SQdecode/SQdecode.html

Eero

20.10.2015, 20:35, David Pickett kirjoitti:

I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, but
I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results playing them
out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.

My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.

Thanks in advant for any pointers.

David

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[Sursound] SQ QUAD

[David Pickett]

I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, 
but I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results 
playing them out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.


My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ 
decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he 
presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to 
recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one 
can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.


Thanks in advant for any pointers.

David

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Eero Aro]

There's one:

http://www.hotto.de/software/quadrophonicmatrixdecoder.html

Eero

20.10.2015, 20:35, David Pickett kirjoitti:

I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, but
I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results playing them
out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.

My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.

Thanks in advant for any pointers.

David

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[David Pickett]

Many thanks,  Eero!  (I dont know why my search didnt turn these up...)

I see that the transformation used in the first one is simple to 
describe. 90 degree rotation is not simple, however!


David

At 20:37 20-10-15, Eero Aro wrote:

There's another:

http://www-user.rhrk.uni-kl.de/~junglas/SQdecode/SQdecode.html

Eero

20.10.2015, 20:35, David Pickett kirjoitti:

I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, but
I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results playing them
out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.

My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.

Thanks in advant for any pointers.

David

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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Richard]

Alas it's far more complex than that, a quick look at the equation will tell 
you that:

Lt = Lf + (- j0.707Lb + 0.707Rb) 

Rt = Rf + (- 0.707Lb + j0.707 Rb )







  Many thanks,  Eero!  (I dont know why my search didnt turn these up...)

  I see that the transformation used in the first one is simple to 
  describe. 90 degree rotation is not simple, however!

  David

  At 20:37 20-10-15, Eero Aro wrote:
  >There's another:
  >
  >http://www-user.rhrk.uni-kl.de/~junglas/SQdecode/SQdecode.html
  >
  >Eero
  >
  >20.10.2015, 20:35, David Pickett kirjoitti:
  >>I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, but
  >>I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results playing them
  >>out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.
  >>
  >>My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ
  >>decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he
  >>presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to
  >>recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one
  >>can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.
  >>
  >>Thanks in advant for any pointers.
  >>
  >>David
  >>
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Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD

[Eric Benjamin]

Richard,
You say "the two software programs you've been provided links for don't decode 
it" Just out of curiosity, in what way do the two software decoders fail to 
properly decode SQ? My interest is purely academic, as I don't have any SQ 
source material.
Eric Benjamin 


 On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 11:02 AM, David Pickett  
wrote:
   

 I dont expect them to ever sound as good as an Ambisonic recording, 
but I bought some SQ-encoded LPs today.  I get pleasant results 
playing them out of phase with the same on two rear channels at -6 dB.

My reason for writing is to ask whether anyone here knows what an SQ 
decoder actually did.  Despite all the BS Ben Bauer spouted when he 
presented it to the AES in London (or was it the BKSTS?), I seem to 
recall that it wasnt too sophisticated and perhaps, knowing this, one 
can synthesize something better than the above in a DAW.

Thanks in advant for any pointers.

David

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