Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Peter Lennox]

Actually, dissenting voices apart, I can see how one might want some items in a 
sound field to be localisable, and some not. If this is actually what is wanted 
here - and taking into account one might want a particular component to be 
'everywhere and nowhere' - but not inside the head - then a decorrelated 
version of the mono version of the desired unlocalisable-but-externalised 
signal could be generated and fed to the array (so basically, it's decorrelated 
in each speaker feeds with respect to all others) - so no precedence or phantom 
imaging.

when the rest of the field is rotated - although this is too, it still won't be 
localisable and the impression should be that it doesn't particularly move.

The perceptual impression ought to be that this is underlying incidental music 
(like film music) not part of the actual scene depicted. - We are well versed 
in listening to that.

For decorrelation methods, the same methods as in Earl Vickers' "fixing the 
phantom center: diffusing acoustical crosstalk" might be efficacious

cheers
ppl
Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby

Tel: 01332 593155

From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Joseph Anderson 
[j.ander...@ambisonictoolkit.net]
Sent: 29 March 2016 00:59
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield,    
possible?

Hello Eero,

I could say something about the competing voices (on W) inside my head...
and the difficulty in deciding which to regard as an appropriate guide.
But, this isn't a suitable forum for such discussions. ;-)


My best,


*Joseph Anderson*



*http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/ <http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/>*


On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Eero Aro <eero@dlc.fi> wrote:

> It's early days in VR.
>>
>
> I agree with Stefan.
>
> A couple of months ago I attended a seminar, where we were shown some
> 360 video examples of holiday travel advertising clips. VR is a nice tool
> for
> the travel agencies, as you can get a hint of what you could see if you
> travel
> there. It just looked like they don't know yet, how to use the medium.
>
> If I was watching such a 360 video, I'd like to localize the guide's
> voice-over
> in front of me all the time, no matter where I turn my sight. As the
> person is
> not seen in the picture, the voice-over is not in conflict with what you
> see.
>
> Also, I'd rather _not_ localize the voice-over inside my head. (Using W.)
> I would feel uncomfortable with a guide's voice inside my head.
>
> Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Joseph Anderson]

Hello Eero,

I could say something about the competing voices (on W) inside my head...
and the difficulty in deciding which to regard as an appropriate guide.
But, this isn't a suitable forum for such discussions. ;-)


My best,


*Joseph Anderson*



*http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/ *


On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Eero Aro  wrote:

> It's early days in VR.
>>
>
> I agree with Stefan.
>
> A couple of months ago I attended a seminar, where we were shown some
> 360 video examples of holiday travel advertising clips. VR is a nice tool
> for
> the travel agencies, as you can get a hint of what you could see if you
> travel
> there. It just looked like they don't know yet, how to use the medium.
>
> If I was watching such a 360 video, I'd like to localize the guide's
> voice-over
> in front of me all the time, no matter where I turn my sight. As the
> person is
> not seen in the picture, the voice-over is not in conflict with what you
> see.
>
> Also, I'd rather _not_ localize the voice-over inside my head. (Using W.)
> I would feel uncomfortable with a guide's voice inside my head.
>
> Eero
> ___
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Eero Aro]

It's early days in VR.


I agree with Stefan.

A couple of months ago I attended a seminar, where we were shown some
360 video examples of holiday travel advertising clips. VR is a nice 
tool for
the travel agencies, as you can get a hint of what you could see if you 
travel

there. It just looked like they don't know yet, how to use the medium.

If I was watching such a 360 video, I'd like to localize the guide's 
voice-over
in front of me all the time, no matter where I turn my sight. As the 
person is
not seen in the picture, the voice-over is not in conflict with what you 
see.


Also, I'd rather _not_ localize the voice-over inside my head. (Using W.)
I would feel uncomfortable with a guide's voice inside my head.

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Stefan Schreiber]

Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:


On 03/26/2016 05:22 PM, Albert Leusink wrote:


Jörn Nettingsmeier  writes:




i don't see why you would want to do that. the effect will be quite
strange... why would any part of the sound mix stay constant wrt head
position?
the effect would be a bit like rotating the music bed in the cinema
every time the camera pans - funny, but certainly irritating.



It would be for off-camera audio (voice over, music etc.) that don't 
have

any relation to the camera position/rotation.




I still don't think that makes sense. Certainly it will be detrimental 
to the proper externalisation of the VR content.



Let's look back:


Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video that needs to stay
in position, while the other elements (dialog, sfx etc.) respond to rotation.



Imagine some background music in a computer/VR game.

This does not have to come from "somewhere". So the concept of some 
stereo bed in viewing direction can be discussed, at least.


It's early days in VR. A simple test could deliver some needed feedback.

Certainly it will be detrimental to the proper externalisation of the 
VR content.



Or maybe not? The stereo bed or object is not related to the VR scene, 
nor is this really about "superposition of different spaces."


Best,

Stefan

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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 06:36:16PM +0200, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:

> I still don't think that makes sense. Certainly it will be
> detrimental to the proper externalisation of the VR content.

Easy enough to test (willl do so tuesday when back at work).
Use two renderers, one with motion compensation and one
without and sum the outputs. Or just send the 'fixed' signal
directly to the headphones.

I expect that for the listener the result will be 'a bit confusing' 
at least. If not worse.

In case the OP wanted some way to use only one AMB stream
for both the motion compensated and the externalised fixed
content, that seems impossible.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Jörn Nettingsmeier]

On 03/26/2016 05:22 PM, Albert Leusink wrote:

Jörn Nettingsmeier  writes:



i don't see why you would want to do that. the effect will be quite
strange... why would any part of the sound mix stay constant wrt head
position?
the effect would be a bit like rotating the music bed in the cinema
every time the camera pans - funny, but certainly irritating.


It would be for off-camera audio (voice over, music etc.) that don't have
any relation to the camera position/rotation.


To quote:

"What are you doing?", asked Minsky.
"I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-tac-toe", 
Sussman replied.

"Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky.
"I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play", 
Sussman said.


Minsky then shut his eyes.
"Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher.
"So that the room will be empty."
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.


Imagine a video with an on-camera actor (dialog), a voice over and a music
track. You would want the on-camera dialog to match the video position (so
counter-rotate) , but the VO and music track will not rotate.


I still don't think that makes sense. Certainly it will be detrimental 
to the proper externalisation of the VR content.


If you want to create two disjunct acoustic spaces, do it with _space_, 
i.e. (lack of) reverb. A close-miked voice-over will be perceptually 
clearly separated from any surround location recording at all times.


If you really want to freak out your users, you could route VO and music 
to W only - the result will be a source inside your head. But my guess 
is your brain will just flip you a birdie at that point and hitherto 
refuse to externalise anything you throw at it, not just the voice-over.



if you absolutely have to do it, the only way is to deliver two streams,
one head-tracked and counter-rotated, the other not. which means you'd
have to have control over the listener's player software.


That's what I was afraid of...so I would need 6 channels instead of 4.


If and only if you find it actually benefits your production.


the only way to get two rotationally invariant signals into the stream
is a cardioid pointing up and another one pointing down. if your player
ignores head tilt, the result is like summing to mono and mixing into W.
if it supports head tilt, the result is likely even worse :-


Would that be the same as rotating the encoded stereo stream (set to 0º
spread)  by 90º vertically?


That was not meant to be an actual solution, I was merely stating that 
with this technique, you could insert two signals into your B-format 
stream that would be rotationally invariant and could be extracted in 
the player after the head tracking stage. But they would each spill into 
your horizontal signal at -6dB, because there is only really room for 
one extra signal... But if you can do DSP after headtracking, you could 
also do it right and use two extra channels, iff it actually made sense 
to do it from a perceptual point of view. So this whole paragraph is 
hypo³thetical :-D





--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Augustine Leudar]

Ok I think I know what you mean now. you could still do this still in max
msp with panning (sort of) by feeding the headtracking coordinates into the
program and getting them to "rotate" the sounds in the panner you want to
make static so they appear to maintain the same relative position when you
move your head,
cheers,
Gus

On 27 March 2016 at 12:56, Dave Hunt <davehuntau...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm curious as to where "normal" stereo at plus and minus 30 degrees comes
> from.
>
> Most "stereo" microphones use two cardioid capsules at 90 degrees (plus
> and minus 45 degrees) or wider. MS and ambisonics derive from Blumlein, the
> first using a central cardioid with a figure-8 at right angles to it, and
> the latter with an omni-directional pressure microphone and figure-8
> microphones at 90 degree separation. Most mono panpots use a sin/cosine law
> based on 0 to 90 degrees. The only argument for  plus and minus 30 degrees
> I've heard was based on a potential "hole in the middle", that I have never
> really encountered, and screen-based media which favour a narrow audio
> image to match the narrow visual image. 5.1 seems to have legitimised the
> zero, plus and minus 30 degrees, and plus and minus 110 degrees (more side
> than rear) heresy.
>
> Even our own ears are not at plus and minus 30 degrees, more like plus and
> minus 75 degrees  or larger separation.
>
> Others, including I think Robert Green, have argued for 90 degrees instead
> of 60 degrees.
>
> "Normal" stereo via UHJ to B-format,  does reveal spatial information
> beyond left and right in stereo recordings. Spaced omni recordings, of
> course, have no definite spatial directionality.
>
> Ciao,
>
> Dave Hunt
>
> From: Eero Aro <eero@dlc.fi>
>> Date: 26 March 2016 12:36:42 GMT
>> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
>> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield,
>> possible?
>> Reply-To: eero@dlc.fi
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> When you use two channel stereo in the 360 soundfield, pay attention to
>> two
>> things.
>>
>> If you pan the Left and the Right channel of the stereo into directly
>> opposite directions,
>> say + 90 and - 90 degrees (to left and right), you basicly lose the
>> directional cues.
>> What you hear is a very spacious sound image. You cannot detect the
>> directions of individual phantom sources. If this is what you need, do
>> it. It's about
>> the same which directions you use, as rotating the opposite panned stereo
>> doesn't
>> change the illusion practically at all. This technique has been used with
>> dummy head
>> recordings, and yes, it is spacey, but no good sense of directions.
>>
>> If you wish that a stereo image is located somewhere around you, it is
>> better to pan the
>> Left and the Right channel to some certain angle from each other. Try
>> first
>> panning the stereo channels to + 30 and - 30 degrees in front, as in a
>> normal two
>> loudspeaker stereo. You will notice that it sounds a little bit like two
>> channel stereo,
>> but with worse localization, at least in first order Ambisonics. You can
>> then rotate this
>> "sector" to some other direction. At the back and at the sides the
>> localization is
>> not as good as in the front, and it is usually better to narrow down the
>> sector.
>> This is not because of Ambisonics, it's because our hearing localizes
>> phantom sources
>> from loudspeaker playback in that way.
>>
>> I have used this technique in "smearing" the localization of a panned
>> mono signal.
>> The mono is panned into some direction and the stereo reverb or delays of
>> that
>> mono signal panned into both sides of the mono image.
>>
>> if this is the equivalent of fitting a square peg into a round hole...
>>>
>>
>> Or "drilling a square hole with a triangular drill"?   :-)
>>
>> Not at all. I think your question is very relevant and welcomed. I wish
>> there would
>> be more discussion about how the soundfield is used in real life.
>>
>> Eero
>>
>
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-- 
Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Dave Hunt]

Hi,

I'm curious as to where "normal" stereo at plus and minus 30 degrees  
comes from.


Most "stereo" microphones use two cardioid capsules at 90 degrees  
(plus and minus 45 degrees) or wider. MS and ambisonics derive from  
Blumlein, the first using a central cardioid with a figure-8 at right  
angles to it, and the latter with an omni-directional pressure  
microphone and figure-8 microphones at 90 degree separation. Most  
mono panpots use a sin/cosine law based on 0 to 90 degrees. The only  
argument for  plus and minus 30 degrees I've heard was based on a  
potential "hole in the middle", that I have never really encountered,  
and screen-based media which favour a narrow audio image to match the  
narrow visual image. 5.1 seems to have legitimised the zero, plus and  
minus 30 degrees, and plus and minus 110 degrees (more side than  
rear) heresy.


Even our own ears are not at plus and minus 30 degrees, more like  
plus and minus 75 degrees  or larger separation.


Others, including I think Robert Green, have argued for 90 degrees  
instead of 60 degrees.


"Normal" stereo via UHJ to B-format,  does reveal spatial information  
beyond left and right in stereo recordings. Spaced omni recordings,  
of course, have no definite spatial directionality.


Ciao,

Dave Hunt


From: Eero Aro <eero@dlc.fi>
Date: 26 March 2016 12:36:42 GMT
To: sursound@music.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating  
soundfield, possible?

Reply-To: eero@dlc.fi


Hi

When you use two channel stereo in the 360 soundfield, pay  
attention to two

things.

If you pan the Left and the Right channel of the stereo into  
directly opposite directions,
say + 90 and - 90 degrees (to left and right), you basicly lose the  
directional cues.

What you hear is a very spacious sound image. You cannot detect the
directions of individual phantom sources. If this is what you need,  
do it. It's about
the same which directions you use, as rotating the opposite panned  
stereo doesn't
change the illusion practically at all. This technique has been  
used with dummy head

recordings, and yes, it is spacey, but no good sense of directions.

If you wish that a stereo image is located somewhere around you, it  
is better to pan the
Left and the Right channel to some certain angle from each other.  
Try first
panning the stereo channels to + 30 and - 30 degrees in front, as  
in a normal two
loudspeaker stereo. You will notice that it sounds a little bit  
like two channel stereo,
but with worse localization, at least in first order Ambisonics.  
You can then rotate this
"sector" to some other direction. At the back and at the sides the  
localization is
not as good as in the front, and it is usually better to narrow  
down the sector.
This is not because of Ambisonics, it's because our hearing  
localizes phantom sources

from loudspeaker playback in that way.

I have used this technique in "smearing" the localization of a  
panned mono signal.
The mono is panned into some direction and the stereo reverb or  
delays of that

mono signal panned into both sides of the mono image.

if this is the equivalent of fitting a square peg into a round  
hole...


Or "drilling a square hole with a triangular drill"?   :-)

Not at all. I think your question is very relevant and welcomed. I  
wish there would

be more discussion about how the soundfield is used in real life.

Eero


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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Stefan Schreiber]

Albert Leusink wrote:


Jörn Nettingsmeier  writes:


 


are you talking about a head-tracked VR movie?
   



Yes.

 

i don't see why you would want to do that. the effect will be quite 
strange... why would any part of the sound mix stay constant wrt head 
position?
the effect would be a bit like rotating the music bed in the cinema 
every time the camera pans - funny, but certainly irritating.
   



It would be for off-camera audio (voice over, music etc.) that don't have
any relation to the camera position/rotation.

Imagine a video with an on-camera actor (dialog), a voice over and a music
track. You would want the on-camera dialog to match the video position (so
counter-rotate) , but the VO and music track will not rotate.

 

if you absolutely have to do it, the only way is to deliver two streams, 
one head-tracked and counter-rotated, the other not. which means you'd 
have to have control over the listener's player software.
   



That's what I was afraid of...so I would need 6 channels instead of 4.
 



Is this such a problem, if you are already working with VR video -  so 
two  video streams  rendered at 60 Hz if not at 90/120  Hz?


Don't worry about < just > 6 audio channels. (= 5.1 channel count!)

It could also be 11.1 + 2, or 22.2 +2 .

Best,

Stefan




 

the only way to get two rotationally invariant signals into the stream 
is a cardioid pointing up and another one pointing down. if your player 
ignores head tilt, the result is like summing to mono and mixing into W. 
if it supports head tilt, the result is likely even worse :-
   



Would that be the same as rotating the encoded stereo stream (set to 0º
spread)  by 90º vertically? 

 



Thank you!
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Albert Leusink]

Jörn Nettingsmeier  writes:


> 
> are you talking about a head-tracked VR movie?

Yes.

> 
> i don't see why you would want to do that. the effect will be quite 
> strange... why would any part of the sound mix stay constant wrt head 
> position?
> the effect would be a bit like rotating the music bed in the cinema 
> every time the camera pans - funny, but certainly irritating.

It would be for off-camera audio (voice over, music etc.) that don't have
any relation to the camera position/rotation.

Imagine a video with an on-camera actor (dialog), a voice over and a music
track. You would want the on-camera dialog to match the video position (so
counter-rotate) , but the VO and music track will not rotate.

> 
> if you absolutely have to do it, the only way is to deliver two streams, 
> one head-tracked and counter-rotated, the other not. which means you'd 
> have to have control over the listener's player software.

That's what I was afraid of...so I would need 6 channels instead of 4.


> 
> the only way to get two rotationally invariant signals into the stream 
> is a cardioid pointing up and another one pointing down. if your player 
> ignores head tilt, the result is like summing to mono and mixing into W. 
> if it supports head tilt, the result is likely even worse :-

Would that be the same as rotating the encoded stereo stream (set to 0º
spread)  by 90º vertically? 

> 

Thank you!
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Eero Aro]

Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video


Oops, I didn't read carefully _that_ part. Anyway, all answers tell you 
that it is possible.


Eero
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Stefan Schreiber]

Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:


On 03/26/2016 05:58 AM, Albert Leusink wrote:


Hello,

Is it possible to have a non-rotating stereo source in the ambisonic
soundfield, while all the other sources rotate?

Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video that needs 
to stay
in position, while the other elements (dialog, sfx etc.) respond to 
rotation.



are you talking about a head-tracked VR movie?

i don't see why you would want to do that. the effect will be quite 
strange... why would any part of the sound mix stay constant wrt head 
position?
the effect would be a bit like rotating the music bed in the cinema 
every time the camera pans - funny, but certainly irritating.


if you absolutely have to do it, the only way is to deliver two 
streams, one head-tracked and counter-rotated, the other not. which 
means you'd have to have control over the listener's player software.


Exactly. So you could rotate a (1st) SF stream, and either pan a (2nd) 
stereo object/stream into the SF (at current viewing  direction, if I 
understood well), or you could do a direct stereo --> binaural 
transformation for the stereo stream. In any case there would be always 
two different (i.e. independent) streams, just as Jörn says. You can 
combine these in different ways.




the only way to get two rotationally invariant signals into the stream 
is a cardioid pointing up and another one pointing down. if your 
player ignores head tilt, the result is like summing to mono and 
mixing into W. if it supports head tilt, the result is likely even 
worse :-D



But this is an interesting case, nevertheless.   :-)


Best,

Stefan
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Albert Leusink]

Thanks for all your insights, I'll try to be a bit more specific.

The delivery format is a 4 channel WXYZ .wav file that will be rotated and
decoded to binaural in realtime in the video player according to the
viewer's head rotation.

So, there is no panning involved, just static sources, that counter rotate
according to the head rotation (so it appears their location is fixed in the
spherical soundfield)

What I want to have also in this soundfield is a stereo source that moves
with the head rotation (just like regular stereo listening on headphones),
that gets somehow mixed in with the 4 channel wxyz file.


By M/S encoding the stereo audio (sending the mid to the W channel and the
side to the Y channel), it sums to mono at 90 and 270º. The same happens
with regular stereo to FOA encoding.

If I send the side channel both to X and Y, it sums to mono at 45º and
225º.(a 45º shift).


Is there a solution that does not sum to mono? Double M/S?

Regards,

Albert
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Marc Lavallée]

What about mixing two ambisonic streams: 
one fixed ambisonic rendered stereo + one rotated soundfield?
--
Marc

On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 16:40:59 +0100
Jörn Nettingsmeier  wrote:

> On 03/26/2016 05:58 AM, Albert Leusink wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Is it possible to have a non-rotating stereo source in the ambisonic
> > soundfield, while all the other sources rotate?
> >
> > Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video that needs
> > to stay in position, while the other elements (dialog, sfx etc.)
> > respond to rotation.
> 
> are you talking about a head-tracked VR movie?
> 
> i don't see why you would want to do that. the effect will be quite 
> strange... why would any part of the sound mix stay constant wrt head 
> position?
> the effect would be a bit like rotating the music bed in the cinema 
> every time the camera pans - funny, but certainly irritating.
> 
> if you absolutely have to do it, the only way is to deliver two
> streams, one head-tracked and counter-rotated, the other not. which
> means you'd have to have control over the listener's player software.
> 
> the only way to get two rotationally invariant signals into the
> stream is a cardioid pointing up and another one pointing down. if
> your player ignores head tilt, the result is like summing to mono and
> mixing into W. if it supports head tilt, the result is likely even
> worse :-D
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Jörn Nettingsmeier]

On 03/26/2016 05:58 AM, Albert Leusink wrote:

Hello,

Is it possible to have a non-rotating stereo source in the ambisonic
soundfield, while all the other sources rotate?

Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video that needs to stay
in position, while the other elements (dialog, sfx etc.) respond to rotation.


are you talking about a head-tracked VR movie?

i don't see why you would want to do that. the effect will be quite 
strange... why would any part of the sound mix stay constant wrt head 
position?
the effect would be a bit like rotating the music bed in the cinema 
every time the camera pans - funny, but certainly irritating.


if you absolutely have to do it, the only way is to deliver two streams, 
one head-tracked and counter-rotated, the other not. which means you'd 
have to have control over the listener's player software.


the only way to get two rotationally invariant signals into the stream 
is a cardioid pointing up and another one pointing down. if your player 
ignores head tilt, the result is like summing to mono and mixing into W. 
if it supports head tilt, the result is likely even worse :-D




--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Bo-Erik Sandholm]

About the virtual speakers in FOA for stereo.
And the ideal listening angle  is real life os +- 23 degrees
The best way to listen to stereo loudspeakers is not with totally linear
speakers :-)
There need to be some modfication to direct sound from the speakers if the
sound to the ears is to be the when listening to a centered sound as when
listening to a mono sound source in the centerr.
This is called the stereo sytem error.

http://www.faktiskt.se/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=291133

some knowlede might be borrowed from here ?
http://www.ambiophonics.org/

Bo-Erik

2016-03-26 13:36 GMT+01:00 Eero Aro :

> Hi
>
> When you use two channel stereo in the 360 soundfield, pay attention to two
> things.
>
> If you pan the Left and the Right channel of the stereo into directly
> opposite directions,
> say + 90 and - 90 degrees (to left and right), you basicly lose the
> directional cues.
> What you hear is a very spacious sound image. You cannot detect the
> directions of individual phantom sources. If this is what you need, do it.
> It's about
> the same which directions you use, as rotating the opposite panned stereo
> doesn't
> change the illusion practically at all. This technique has been used with
> dummy head
> recordings, and yes, it is spacey, but no good sense of directions.
>
> If you wish that a stereo image is located somewhere around you, it is
> better to pan the
> Left and the Right channel to some certain angle from each other. Try first
> panning the stereo channels to + 30 and - 30 degrees in front, as in a
> normal two
> loudspeaker stereo. You will notice that it sounds a little bit like two
> channel stereo,
> but with worse localization, at least in first order Ambisonics. You can
> then rotate this
> "sector" to some other direction. At the back and at the sides the
> localization is
> not as good as in the front, and it is usually better to narrow down the
> sector.
> This is not because of Ambisonics, it's because our hearing localizes
> phantom sources
> from loudspeaker playback in that way.
>
> I have used this technique in "smearing" the localization of a panned mono
> signal.
> The mono is panned into some direction and the stereo reverb or delays of
> that
> mono signal panned into both sides of the mono image.
>
> if this is the equivalent of fitting a square peg into a round hole...
>>
>
> Or "drilling a square hole with a triangular drill"?   :-)
>
> Not at all. I think your question is very relevant and welcomed. I wish
> there would
> be more discussion about how the soundfield is used in real life.
>
> Eero
>
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Augustine Leudar]

 thats pretty much what you can do with MaxMSP (ICST) not sure about
the others - I do it all the time ! I had a freind Romain Domain that made
some lovely ICST programming that had 10 sounds swirling one way, ten the
other like a vortex. I assume you can do this with Spat as well or even
vsts like wigware in a daw. The nice thing about ICST is you can see all
the sources on one panner moving around as dots. I wouldnt want to edit
video in max though !

On 26 March 2016 at 10:50, Peter Lennox <p.len...@derby.ac.uk> wrote:

> Actually, you can do it by using a plug in to rotate the entire field, and
> another to counter-rotate the sources you wish to remain static, if you see
> what I mean.
>
> In fact, it would make the basis of a marvellous plugin to bunble these
> functions together, that could depict parallax and therefore, distance
> perception.
>
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox
> Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts
> University of Derby
>
> Tel: 01332 593155
> 
> From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine
> Leudar [augustineleu...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 26 March 2016 05:21
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield,
> possible?
>
> I automate panning with ambisonics using ICST ambisonic panner (though you
> can automate any panner) . I have often had many sources moving whilst
> others stay static - not sure if thats what you mean ?
>
> On 26 March 2016 at 04:58, Albert Leusink <alb...@tumbleandyaw.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Is it possible to have a non-rotating stereo source in the ambisonic
> > soundfield, while all the other sources rotate?
> >
> > Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video that needs to
> stay
> > in position, while the other elements (dialog, sfx etc.) respond to
> > rotation.
> >
> > It works for mono (by sending it to just the W channel), but how about
> > stereo, maybe some kind of double M/S that counters the rotation ?
> >
> > Pardon my ignorance beforehand if this is the equivalent of fitting a
> > square
> > peg into a round hole...
> >
> > Thanks !
> >
> > Albert
> >
> > ___
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> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Peter Lennox]

Actually, you can do it by using a plug in to rotate the entire field, and 
another to counter-rotate the sources you wish to remain static, if you see 
what I mean.

In fact, it would make the basis of a marvellous plugin to bunble these 
functions together, that could depict parallax and therefore, distance 
perception.


Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby

Tel: 01332 593155

From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar 
[augustineleu...@gmail.com]
Sent: 26 March 2016 05:21
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield,
possible?

I automate panning with ambisonics using ICST ambisonic panner (though you
can automate any panner) . I have often had many sources moving whilst
others stay static - not sure if thats what you mean ?

On 26 March 2016 at 04:58, Albert Leusink <alb...@tumbleandyaw.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Is it possible to have a non-rotating stereo source in the ambisonic
> soundfield, while all the other sources rotate?
>
> Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video that needs to stay
> in position, while the other elements (dialog, sfx etc.) respond to
> rotation.
>
> It works for mono (by sending it to just the W channel), but how about
> stereo, maybe some kind of double M/S that counters the rotation ?
>
> Pardon my ignorance beforehand if this is the equivalent of fitting a
> square
> peg into a round hole...
>
> Thanks !
>
> Albert
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



--
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Augustine Leudar]

I automate panning with ambisonics using ICST ambisonic panner (though you
can automate any panner) . I have often had many sources moving whilst
others stay static - not sure if thats what you mean ?

On 26 March 2016 at 04:58, Albert Leusink  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Is it possible to have a non-rotating stereo source in the ambisonic
> soundfield, while all the other sources rotate?
>
> Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video that needs to stay
> in position, while the other elements (dialog, sfx etc.) respond to
> rotation.
>
> It works for mono (by sending it to just the W channel), but how about
> stereo, maybe some kind of double M/S that counters the rotation ?
>
> Pardon my ignorance beforehand if this is the equivalent of fitting a
> square
> peg into a round hole...
>
> Thanks !
>
> Albert
>
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>



-- 
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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[Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Albert Leusink]

Hello,

Is it possible to have a non-rotating stereo source in the ambisonic
soundfield, while all the other sources rotate?

Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video that needs to stay
in position, while the other elements (dialog, sfx etc.) respond to rotation.

It works for mono (by sending it to just the W channel), but how about
stereo, maybe some kind of double M/S that counters the rotation ?

Pardon my ignorance beforehand if this is the equivalent of fitting a square
peg into a round hole...

Thanks !

Albert

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