[biofuels-biz] Methanol - 5-gal containers
Hiperfuels now sells methanol in 5-gal lots, I just got this from them (don't try for the free samples!). Keith Addison Journey to Forever Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:24:43 -0500 From: Jess Hewitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Methanol and Ethanol To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Can you add our website to the list of suppliers of Methanol E85 and E10 Ethanol/Gasoline blends We are now selling a lot of methanol in 5 gallon containers and some ethanol. If you would like to sample our products then let me know and I will ship you 5 gallons of any of the products for free as your site has been a great referral site for us. Thanks Jess Hewitt www.hiperfuels.com p.s. I just acquired a new web site address that is very cool: www.buybiodiesel.com Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Fwd: Biodiesel question
Please reply direct to Daniel. Keith Someone please tell Daniel that any bus can become a 'biodiesel bus' simply by putting the right fuel in its tank. David Hi David I thought I'd leave that for some interested party in LA to tell him. Keith We are interested in contacting a biodiesel bus organization or interest for a possible eco-tour of Los Angeles using a biodiesel bus. Can anyone put us in contact with appropriate parties in the LA area? Thanks, Daniel Escalzo The Green Festival Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] [biofuel] Re: OT - Nation's SUV Critics Are Gaining Traction
Hi MM Thanks for the cross-post. Yes, I agree - especially with the first para, and the last one. But Hubbert's Peak, well... It's often come up here in the past, but I just don't think it matters much, on three counts. First is the idea that known oil reserves, and other conventional energy reserves, are indeed known to any reliable extent. Yes, we're told it's all much more accurate now than it was three, two or even one decade ago, but I keep seeing it shifting all the time. Here's the latest one, about one a week: The U.S. Geological Survey has announced that there is far more coal bed methane gas available in the Powder River Basin than previously thought -- while simultaneously acknowledging that the Rocky Mountain West contains far less oil than the agency had claimed in earlier estimates. In the Powder River Valley, which straddles Montana and Wyoming, the USGS says there is a whopping 14 times more coal bed methane than suggested in initial studies, for a total of some 14.3 trillion cubic feet. (That estimate reflects all gas in the region, not just the portion that would be economically feasible to extract.) Despite environmental concerns, the basin is widely seen as a cornerstone of the Bush administration's energy policy. Meanwhile, the USGS estimated that it had exaggerated its 1995 estimate of oil in the Rocky Mountain West, another favored Bush energy source, by 844 million barrels. - Billings Gazette, 18 Dec 2002 http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1display=rednews/2002/12/ 18/build/wyoming/cbmestimates.inc CBM gas estimates increased by 14 times And that's in the US, not exactly an uncharted wilderness. Earl says ... there are possible large reserves in central Asian nations. They would seem to be massive enough to make a world of difference, quite literally, but it's all at sea when it comes to accurate figures, they keep changing. Nobody knows. You can't make accurate predictions of how long a resource will last if you don't know how much of it there is in the first place. Along with this I think we should be sceptical about just who the figures come from, not quite folks who might not have their own angle on it - the USGS is often accused of that, apparently with justification, governments have an angle, the energy companies have an angle. Some governments base their entire geopolitical strategy on it, and are not famous for telling the truth about it. This coal bed methane story above wouldn't have anything to do with the current administration's intentions towards it, now would it? Rather a hot potato. Those with the best figures on the reserves almost certainly lie to us. Second is that there are plenty of alternatives, and more will emerge. One alternative is coal - there's an enormous amount of coal in reserve, and low-grade coal that won't even burn can easily be turned into gasoline and diesel fuel via the Fischer-Tropsche process, as in South Africa for many decades, and now elsewhere. If you only look at Hubbert's Peak, solutions such as this might seem to be the answer, but they're not, there's a lot make to it than just Hubbert's Peak. Also, technology is not something that stands still - I get told that when I'm sceptical about the known reserves, but somehow it's not seen to apply to improvements in extraction, utilization and much besides. Josh Tickell said this here a while back: As of '97, we had extracted 807 billion barrels of oil and 995 billion barrels of extractable oil remained in the earth's crust. We're consuming 24 billion barrels a year with an annual consumption increase of 2%. Here's the key: there is another trillion barrels of oil buried under rock sediment and in other virtually inaccessible areas. The cost to extract it will equate in 2000 dollars to over $5 a gallon for gasoline at US pumps. The marginal utility of gasoline (the point at which the demand for gasoline begins to decline) is $3 a gallon. Who's going to extract oil they can't sell? The end of oil is not about geology, it's about profit margins. Perhaps, but most people in the world already pay about $5 at the pump, which doesn't seem to deter them very much. Americans probably also pay about that, but not at the pump, it's mostly hidden - and the rest of the world says US fuel is way too cheap anyway, which it is. The time is coming when Americans will pay the same as everyone else. Let it be soon, hopefully it will see a good deal less wastefulness - Americans use more than twice as much energy per capita as Europeans or Japanese (let alone Indians or Tanzanians). Anyway, what counts isn't so much what they pay per gallon as what they pay per mile - what becomes of the marginal utility of gasoline when you're driving an Insight or a Prius? If you're prepared to pay $3 a gallon to go 20 miles, won't you pay $12 a gallon to go 80 miles? And re all the stuff locked in the rocks, anyone want to bet on how long it'll
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
MM wrote: In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Ah, but I thought no modifications were needed, according to what Keith and others have been saying. Whence this policy of a major government of the country that produces arguably the world's best auto technology? It's not a policy of a major government, it's part of a proposal by a study group. That's not quite what I've been saying. In fact I haven't said much about it, other than to quote what other people have said, and to ask, Where's the damage? - apart from an outboard motor that allegedly splutters. What this story from Japan says is rather different to what you seem to think - didn't you read the next paragraph? It's an emissions concern, that's all. It says safety tests, that means environmental safety, not engine-damage safety. You seem very keen to reach the conclusion that 10% ethanol damages motors, I don't understand why. This is what it says: The Environment Ministry in fiscal 2003 will conduct safety tests to establish whether the low-concentration blended gasoline can be used in existing vehicles. The ministry also plans to set up and subsidize low-concentration blended fuel pumps at gasoline stands in some regions. In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Enabling vehicles to handle the blended fuel would require automakers to change the catalytic control device, which removes nitrogen dioxides. The Environment Ministry plans to subsidize the cost of changing this device. Best Keith Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles Dec 16, 2002 The Asahi Shimbun http://www.asahi.com/english/national/K2002121600230.html An Environment Ministry study group will propose a policy of blending alcohol into gasoline to create a cleaner fuel for motor vehicles-a move that could radically change the auto industry. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Fwd: [biofuel] Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:58:20 -0600 Subject: [biofuel] Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles Dec 16, 2002 The Asahi Shimbun http://www.asahi.com/english/national/K2002121600230.html An Environment Ministry study group will propose a policy of blending alcohol into gasoline to create a cleaner fuel for motor vehicles-a move that could radically change the auto industry. The initial goal is to help the nation achieve its greenhouse gas reduction target under the Kyoto Protocol. But the ultimate aim is to have the blended fuel, with a plant-derived ethanol content of 10 percent, completely replace regular gasoline, according to the group headed by Waseda University professor Katsuya Nagata. The group, which includes scientists and representatives of the auto industry, was set up to study technology to deal with global warming. For its part, the ministry will promote the spread of vehicles capable of using the blended fuel. The ministry intends to begin the switch as early as 2008. The Kyoto Protocol obliges Japan to reduce greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide by 6 percent from the 1990 level during the period from 2008 to 2012. The study group determined that motor vehicles belch out about 20 percent of greenhouse gas emissions in Japan. If regular gasoline is converted to the blended fuel, it would be possible to reduce emissions by 1 percent from the 1990 level, according to the study group. The Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry has already started to develop a system to promote the spread of low-concentration blended gasoline containing between 1 percent and 5 percent plant-derived ethanol. The Environment Ministry in fiscal 2003 will conduct safety tests to establish whether the low-concentration blended gasoline can be used in existing vehicles. The ministry also plans to set up and subsidize low-concentration blended fuel pumps at gasoline stands in some regions. In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Enabling vehicles to handle the blended fuel would require automakers to change the catalytic control device, which removes nitrogen dioxides. The Environment Ministry plans to subsidize the cost of changing this device. The cost of the ethanol-gasoline mix is currently about 30 percent higher than that of regular gasoline, mainly because ethanol must be refined after being imported. But the price will come down to the level of regular gasoline when the government lowers the tariff on ethanol and improves the refining process. Fuel containing alcohol is progressing in Europe and the United States. In the United States, blended gasoline containing 10 percent ethanol has a 12 percent market share. The European Union is currently considering making compulsory a certain percentage of blended materials in gasoline. (IHT/Asahi: December 16,2002) Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Fwd: [biofuel] Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Cars in 2010
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 20:01:14 -0600 Subject: [biofuel] Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Cars in 2010 Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Cars in 2010 Dec 19, 2002 http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=newscat=4id=243380 Japan aims to introduce an ambitious program intended to recycle leftover food, livestock droppings and scrap wood as biomass energy to fuel cars, ships and power plants, starting in 2010, according to a report obtained Thursday. A final government draft of the Biomass Nippon (Japan) strategy, obtained by Kyodo News, says the government will designate some 500 communities as model areas for intensively implementing projects to utilize biomass energy. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Cars in 2010
Hi Hoagy, how've you been? Bit more below on this one: Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Cars in 2010 Dec 19, 2002 http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=newscat=4id=243380 Japan aims to introduce an ambitious program intended to recycle leftover food, livestock droppings and scrap wood as biomass energy to fuel cars, ships and power plants, starting in 2010, according to a report obtained Thursday. A final government draft of the Biomass Nippon (Japan) strategy, obtained by Kyodo News, says the government will designate some 500 communities as model areas for intensively implementing projects to utilize biomass energy. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20021220a7.htm The Japan Times Online Biomass recycling program planned for launch in 2010 Japan is targeting 2010 for the introduction of an ambitious program to recycle leftover food, livestock manure and scrap wood as biomass energy to fuel cars, ships and power plants, according to a report obtained Thursday. A final government draft of the Biomass Nippon strategy, obtained by Kyodo News, says the government will designate some 500 communities as model areas for intensively implementing projects to utilize biomass energy. Biomass fuel, made from animal, plant and other organic wastes, is expected to contribute to fighting global warming through cutting the use of fossil fuels and thereby reducing the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, according to the document. The United States and the European Union have both set targets of tripling the use of biomass energy by 2010. According to the final Biomass Nippon draft, the government will launch by March 31 a study to assess the quality of diesel fuel made from used rapeseed oil and other food waste, and test the fuel in cars and ships. The strategy also includes building biomass power plants to be fueled by scrap wood and methane gas originating from animal droppings, promoting usage of biomass products made from manure, and using ethanol abstracted from plants as automobile fuel. The projects are expected to generate 260 billion yen in the economy in 2010 if they are carried out as stipulated, officials said. The government hopes the biomass-related technology and products will develop into a new strategic industry, they said. The government is expected to unveil the Biomass Nippon strategy by the end of the year and start work on related legislation early next year, according to the officials. The Japan Times: Dec. 20, 2002 (C) All rights reserved Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
Re these two stories Hoagy posted, Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Cars in 2010 and Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles, it's very gratifying to see that the major focus is on waste, and on the community level. Most previous proposals have been high-tech stuff for big industry, so this really is a change. One of the movers behind these proposals is Associate Prof. Yuta Harago at Meiji-Gakuin University, who runs the Biomass Industrial Society Network. He previously did a lot of work with biomass in Brazil, working with Mercedes-Benz and local communities there, and in Mexico and elsewhere in Latin America, and more recently here. He spent time with us in Tokyo, and much time at our website, and he's been a Biofuel list member for a year now. His book on biomass energy for Japan was published here last month, and is proving very influential. The first chapter starts like this: Example one - Running a car on handmade energy, and continues with a Japanese translation of the following, which might sound familiar: We turned our kitchen into a sort of illicit still and made a hell of a mess in there brewing biodiesel fuel out of about 60 litres of yukky waste cooking oil we got from behind McDonald's one night (they were happy to give it to us once we told them we didn't want to eat it). We were sure it would work, but we had to make it ourselves first -- we're not chemists, and if we can make it anyone can. And it works! Amazing! Last night we put the stuff in Midori's old diesel Land Rover and it ran like a dream and smelt like a bunch of roses! Well, French fried roses anyway. Now it runs clean, on waste Big Mac residues we brewed up in a bucket in the kitchen, and we're very tickled! With the link: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html Biodiesel: Journey to Forever :-) Quite a lot of the information comes from our website. We're still in touch with Yuta, we get notified of the meetings and conferences and so on, but we don't go, especially since we're not in Tokyo now, but also, rather than the level where 500 communities get selected for trials, we prefer working in one community, from the ground up, and we'll be doing that in a rural community in Ichijima from next month. This will be the final phase of our project here in Japan before leaving on the rest of our journey. Best Keith Journey to Forever Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles Dec 16, 2002 The Asahi Shimbun http://www.asahi.com/english/national/K2002121600230.html An Environment Ministry study group will propose a policy of blending alcohol into gasoline to create a cleaner fuel for motor vehicles-a move that could radically change the auto industry. The initial goal is to help the nation achieve its greenhouse gas reduction target under the Kyoto Protocol. But the ultimate aim is to have the blended fuel, with a plant-derived ethanol content of 10 percent, completely replace regular gasoline, according to the group headed by Waseda University professor Katsuya Nagata. The group, which includes scientists and representatives of the auto industry, was set up to study technology to deal with global warming. For its part, the ministry will promote the spread of vehicles capable of using the blended fuel. The ministry intends to begin the switch as early as 2008. The Kyoto Protocol obliges Japan to reduce greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide by 6 percent from the 1990 level during the period from 2008 to 2012. The study group determined that motor vehicles belch out about 20 percent of greenhouse gas emissions in Japan. If regular gasoline is converted to the blended fuel, it would be possible to reduce emissions by 1 percent from the 1990 level, according to the study group. The Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry has already started to develop a system to promote the spread of low-concentration blended gasoline containing between 1 percent and 5 percent plant-derived ethanol. The Environment Ministry in fiscal 2003 will conduct safety tests to establish whether the low-concentration blended gasoline can be used in existing vehicles. The ministry also plans to set up and subsidize low-concentration blended fuel pumps at gasoline stands in some regions. In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Enabling vehicles to handle the blended fuel would require automakers to change the catalytic control device, which removes nitrogen dioxides. The Environment Ministry plans to subsidize the cost of changing this device. The cost of the ethanol-gasoline mix is currently about 30 percent higher than that of regular gasoline, mainly because ethanol must be refined after being imported. But the price will come down to the level of regular gasoline when the government lowers the tariff on ethanol and
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
Thanks for this info as it brought me a big relieve that the Japanese are now thinking of Ethanol and Biodiesel! For the past three years that we have tried to launch biofuel program in Thailand where most carsmotorcycles are Japanese-made, those who have always come up with NEGATIVE views of biofuel are Japanese motor companies as well as some engineering associations. They would raise all sort of reasons such as emissions, material compatability, ozone formation, price etc etc. that seems endless. Now that their motherland is thinking about it, I surely hope that the critics will look at the issue under a different light. Perhaps, all other smaller countries can develop their biofuel programs and therefore, one day, they can hope to climb out of the poverty trap and the dependency on foreign aid packages! Samai __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Burning sunflowers
Too bad. Their press release makes it seem as if the process is a closed biofuel loop. Todd Swearingen Todd, when I was a student in this department there was quite a bit of work being done on the pyrolysis of coal. I suspect this is what they are talking about in this paragraph: Waste pyrolysis oil is currently burned as fuel, but this can be quite polluting, said Dr Dupont. Our system would still make use of its energy potential, while allowing the often noxious chemicals in the oil to be more easily controlled. i.e. 'waste' oil from a totally separate process, not the co-product of the steam reforming of sunflower oil. H Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
Greetings Samai Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the opposition in Thailand (and other SE Asian countries?) was more on the part of the local agents or local branches, and I don't know how closely the branches are tied to the mother companies when it comes to such issues. We've found some quite different views among senior people in the Japanese motor companies here in Japan, some of them very interested in biofuels developments in SE Asia. But that wasn't an official view or company policy. Whatever, I'm sure you're right, it will be much more difficult for them to be negative about it now if you can point to a positive policy in Japan, that their mother companies subscribe to. Thanks for this info as it brought me a big relieve that the Japanese are now thinking of Ethanol and Biodiesel! For the past three years that we have tried to launch biofuel program in Thailand where most carsmotorcycles are Japanese-made, those who have always come up with NEGATIVE views of biofuel are Japanese motor companies as well as some engineering associations. They would raise all sort of reasons such as emissions, material compatability, ozone formation, price etc etc. that seems endless. Now that their motherland is thinking about it, I surely hope that the critics will look at the issue under a different light. Perhaps, all other smaller countries can develop their biofuel programs and therefore, one day, they can hope to climb out of the poverty trap and the dependency on foreign aid packages! Hear hear! Best wishes Keith Samai Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles Dec 16, 2002 The Asahi Shimbun http://www.asahi.com/english/national/K2002121600230.html Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Cars in 2010 Dec 19, 2002 http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=newscat=4id=243380 Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
Dear Samai, I also think that this might be extremely important for Japan, but it could have a ramping effect in developing countries. They are even more caught by the Oil interests and it's big influence for the poverty trap. When EU moves decisively towards biofuels, now Japan will do the same and US will follow, the biggest impact economically will be in the developing world. The processes of producing ethanol and biodiesel/SVO are beautifully simple and available for anyone, they have all the hallmarks of a sustainable poor mans technologies. As well as they are going to be very important for the developed countries. With the low labor costs in developing countries and the relatively high market prices on fossil fuels, the price at the pump will be competitive already now. This apart from the good for the trading balance and foreign debt. I already started to write an article for Energy Saving Now on this and I will finish it as soon as possible. We have a tendency to focus our interest on the big spenders, who pillage the fossil resources and are trying to minimize the enormous waste. This is what they call the American way of life, resulting in that one country with 4% of the worlds population can Take 25% of the worlds energy use. We hope to be able to influence that, because the effects are big, but we keep forgetting the very large potential that it has for the developing countries. I share your hopes, optimism and willingness to try to do something about this. Hakan At 04:29 PM 12/22/2002 +, you wrote: Thanks for this info as it brought me a big relieve that the Japanese are now thinking of Ethanol and Biodiesel! For the past three years that we have tried to launch biofuel program in Thailand where most carsmotorcycles are Japanese-made, those who have always come up with NEGATIVE views of biofuel are Japanese motor companies as well as some engineering associations. They would raise all sort of reasons such as emissions, material compatability, ozone formation, price etc etc. that seems endless. Now that their motherland is thinking about it, I surely hope that the critics will look at the issue under a different light. Perhaps, all other smaller countries can develop their biofuel programs and therefore, one day, they can hope to climb out of the poverty trap and the dependency on foreign aid packages! Samai __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:10:36 +0900, you wrote: MM wrote: In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Ah, but I thought no modifications were needed, according to what Keith and others have been saying. Whence this policy of a major government of the country that produces arguably the world's best auto technology? It's not a policy of a major government, it's part of a proposal by a study group. That's not quite what I've been saying. In fact I haven't said much about it, other than to quote what other people have said, and to ask, Where's the damage? - apart from an outboard motor that allegedly splutters. Yes, I mis-stated things and knew it as soon as I'd posted it, but figured it would come up further in whatever reply you made. What this story from Japan says is rather different to what you seem to think - didn't you read the next paragraph? It's an emissions concern, that's all. It says safety tests, that means environmental safety, not engine-damage safety. You seem very keen to reach the conclusion that 10% ethanol damages motors, I don't understand why. Actually, this nearly as much a mis-statement of my position as mine was of yours. My primary focus has been to nail down what are the effects (good or bad or indifferent) of *over* 10% mixtures. I've made that clear several times, and so have some of the interested parties in Australia, and so have some of the car manufacturers. That number (or 12 or 13%) was put on one of my own owner's manuals, a point which you just sort of dismissed out of hand as spin, (which meant I-have-no-idea-what). Furthermore, I've used 10% mixtures, once in a great while (on long trips) as have many other Americans, and so we can tell Australians truthfully, well, it's been in use for years now in parts of the U.S. and we seem to be doing fine with it, to my knowledge. I do think that some of the over-10% concerns have been answered, and I think that putting a 20% mixture, say, into my own vehicle is something I'd be *delighted* to do. But, I am putting myself in the position of motorists in Australia, Japan and elsewhere who know little or nothing of these debates and honestly want to know everything possible about what goes into their cars. The net result of anything like talking down to honest questioners from those countries will be a victory for the opposition. As to 10%, I'm sure that there are no untoward effects of introducing a 10% ethanol mixture where it hasn't been before, and this wasn't my main concern, although it does not hurt to go over a couple of points which I think have been glossed-over. -- Hoagy mentions some older parts had needed replacement, way back when he had his first foray into use of 10%. -- He also mentions the valuable point that some fuel providers have tainted goods no matter what. I'd add that if they can screw up gas, they're just as likely, if not more, to screw up a new more-complex mixture that their providers sort of want screwed up anyway. -- I have heard once or twice before something about fuel filters, so I have asked the questions honestly, because I had heard them. Specifically, I think I have read sometimes that since ethanol sometimes has a cleaning effect where it might loosen up deposits which might then clog the fuel filter, then this might be a one-time easily fixed effect, after which the car would theoretically run better, but during which things would be worse, and appear much worse to a driver unaware of all this. That, anyway, is my recollection of the scenario. The Environment Ministry in fiscal 2003 will conduct safety tests to establish whether the low-concentration blended gasoline can be used in existing vehicles. The ministry also plans to set up and subsidize low-concentration blended fuel pumps at gasoline stands in some regions. In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Enabling vehicles to handle the blended fuel would require automakers to change the catalytic control device, which removes nitrogen dioxides. The Environment Ministry plans to subsidize the cost of changing this device. I guess you're saying this implies their concern is not with changing parts affecting core mechanical operation so much as emissions, because they're talking about the catalytic converter. I did miss that. I didn't miss that the Environment Ministry appears to be a government body. Somewhat off emissions are not as great a concern to me as core vehicle function, because they're not going to be the first concern to Joe average driver when he asks himself if he's concerned about changes to fuel for sale down the block. Number one concern, for my money: long-term vehicle reliability. From what Hoagy says, that's extremely good in his experience of trying 10%, although when one digs deep there are some
[biofuels-biz] (fwd) Further comments on Oil and U.S. Foreign Policy
Some further interesting comments on the case that Oil is affecting U.S. foreign policy in untoward ways. I don't subscribe to all these views, but I am passing them on for comment or consideration. Earl you forgot to mention the wild card in the bunch -- China, the dragon is waking up and will be hungry. Right. I figured it was a bit long as it was, and also I don't know as much about that part of the story. Here's a little that I do know. China is tenth on the list of countries with oil reserves (about 24 billion barrels), with less then one tenth of Saudi Arabia. (And much of this is in non-Chinese territories China invaded and annexed after the revolution: Xinjiang and Tibet. They're building a pipeline to move this oil to their east coast.) With more than a billion people, and its role as industrial production for the U.S., its potential appetite for oil is obvious. It used to be an oil exporter until 1993, and then became an importer instead. By 2020 over 50 percent of its petroleum is expected to be imported. There's another proposed pipeline to bring oil from Kazakhstan to China. [http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200103/23/eng20010323_65800.html] [http://www.cornellcaspian.com/pub/19_0108Kazakh-China.htm] By the way, a critical part of the whole Afghanistan story has the persistent dream of the oil companies and the U.S. government to get still another pipeline through Turkmenistan (which borders the Caspian Sea, along with Iran, Russia, Kazakhstan, and Azerbaijan), Afghanistan, and Pakistan to extract Caspian sea oil while avoiding OPEC countries. This could be used to feed any part of the world, including China, via the Indian Ocean. (Iran wanted the pipeline to go through their country, and so provided aid to the Northern Alliance to keep the Taliban from taking complete control of Afghanistan thereby keeping the pipeline on hold.) Unocal of Texas was a primary player in the pipeline effort as part of the CentGas consortium (e.g. Taliban representatives traveled to Sugarland Texas to negotiate with Unocal). Since the consortium and the U.S. were negotiating with the Taliban during the late 1990s, actions against Al-Qaeda were probably restrained, until the embassy attacks in 1998, at which point Clinton started again trying to hit bin Laden with cruise missles (after this point he ordered 3 strikes, but each time the CIA concluded their information wasn't accurate enough to go ahead). It wasn't until 7/4/1999 that Clinton issued an executive order prohibiting commercial transactions with the Taliban, definitely signaling his administration was giving up on the pipeline. Then it was reborn: Despite Al-Qaeda's attack on the U.S.S. Cole, one of the first acts of the Bush administration was to re-open negotiations with the Taliban over the pipeline, again putting action on Al-Qaeda on the back burner over oil (the War on Terrorism is only a marketing ploy). Is it any wonder that Cheney refuses to hand over all of his energy task force minutes? Interestingly, threats to invade Afghanistan over the pipeline issue were made before 9/11; they were told they could choose between carpets of bombs or carpets of gold. After we installed a new government in Afghanistan, the pipeline is finally moving ahead; Afghanistan's Hamid Karzai, Turkmenistan's President Niyazov, and Pakistani President Musharraf signed a MOU on it on 5/30/2002. [http://www.centralasiatravel.com/central_asia_map.html] [http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/completetimeline/index.htm] By the way, there are now U.S. troops in almost every one of the central Asian countries mentioned here. One quote to ponder to close this post: If one looks at the map of the big American bases created for the war, one is struck by the fact that they are completely identical to the route of the projected oil pipeline to the Indian Ocean. Uri Averny, in a Feb. 14 column in the daily Ma'ariv in Israel, as reported March 18, 2002 in the Chicago Tribune (Pipeline Politics Taint US War). [http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0318-02.htm] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Australian ethanol - was Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
Hi MM On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:10:36 +0900, you wrote: MM wrote: In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Ah, but I thought no modifications were needed, according to what Keith and others have been saying. Whence this policy of a major government of the country that produces arguably the world's best auto technology? It's not a policy of a major government, it's part of a proposal by a study group. That's not quite what I've been saying. In fact I haven't said much about it, other than to quote what other people have said, and to ask, Where's the damage? - apart from an outboard motor that allegedly splutters. Yes, I mis-stated things and knew it as soon as I'd posted it, but figured it would come up further in whatever reply you made. What this story from Japan says is rather different to what you seem to think - didn't you read the next paragraph? It's an emissions concern, that's all. It says safety tests, that means environmental safety, not engine-damage safety. You seem very keen to reach the conclusion that 10% ethanol damages motors, I don't understand why. Actually, this nearly as much a mis-statement of my position as mine was of yours. My primary focus has been to nail down what are the effects (good or bad or indifferent) of *over* 10% mixtures. I've made that clear several times, and so have some of the interested parties in Australia, and so have some of the car manufacturers. You've talked of over, at, and below 10%. I've given you a lot of info on it and links to more, yet you've still said your question is unanswered, and then you posted this comment on the Japanese proposal of 10% with apparent glee, and got it wrong, since it has nothing to do with engine damage, and hence my puzzlement. You have been quite specific that your concerns are about engine damage. That number (or 12 or 13%) was put on one of my own owner's manuals, a point which you just sort of dismissed out of hand as spin, (which meant I-have-no-idea-what). Furthermore, I've used 10% mixtures, once in a great while (on long trips) as have many other Americans, and so we can tell Australians truthfully, well, it's been in use for years now in parts of the U.S. and we seem to be doing fine with it, to my knowledge. I do think that some of the over-10% concerns have been answered, and I think that putting a 20% mixture, say, into my own vehicle is something I'd be *delighted* to do. But, I am putting myself in the position of motorists in Australia, Japan and elsewhere who know little or nothing of these debates and honestly want to know everything possible about what goes into their cars. The net result of anything like talking down to honest questioners from those countries will be a victory for the opposition. Why do you think anyone's been talking down? At least among those promoting ethanol use? You somehow had the impression of an overly aggressive or technologically irresponsible campaign to introduce ethanol there, but that doesn't seem to have been the case. I gave you information on that too, it seems to have been sensible and orderly, until this disinformation campaign by the oil interests and their friends. As to 10%, I'm sure that there are no untoward effects of introducing a 10% ethanol mixture where it hasn't been before, and this wasn't my main concern, although it does not hurt to go over a couple of points which I think have been glossed-over. -- Hoagy mentions some older parts had needed replacement, way back when he had his first foray into use of 10%. The Environment Australia report I referenced talked of that too. Several reports have stated that this is no longer an issue, neither for 10% nor for higher blends. It isn't a concern in Japan either. Why do you say it's been glossed over? You said earlier: While I am not likely to become an expert on ethanol by going to some of the pages you suggest, I would like to nail down the basic question here of whether somewhat higher percentages can bring about somewhat different issues for motorists. You also said you hadn't looked at some reports before responding. You didn't look at this Japanese one very well before responding. You don't seem to have checked the archives on the history of the ethanol initiative in Australia as suggested, and thus still seem to think it's been over-hasty. Is it perhaps the case that you're not following up on information provided in answer to your questions and then saying your questions haven't been answered? If you haven't had the time, well, nobody has any time to spare, maybe it might be better to wait until you have had the time? -- He also mentions the valuable point that some fuel providers have tainted goods no matter what. That point was also made in the letter I posted from the ABA via Mike Jureidini. The gas was polluted, but not by ethanol, but ethanol was
[biofuel] Methanol - 5-gal containers
Hiperfuels now sells methanol in 5-gal lots, I just got this from them (don't try for the free samples!). Keith Addison Journey to Forever Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:24:43 -0500 From: Jess Hewitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Methanol and Ethanol To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Can you add our website to the list of suppliers of Methanol E85 and E10 Ethanol/Gasoline blends We are now selling a lot of methanol in 5 gallon containers and some ethanol. If you would like to sample our products then let me know and I will ship you 5 gallons of any of the products for free as your site has been a great referral site for us. Thanks Jess Hewitt www.hiperfuels.com p.s. I just acquired a new web site address that is very cool: www.buybiodiesel.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Level Playing Fields Was: SUV, truck owners get a big tax break
Well, you gotta understand that leveling the playing field is something you grumble about only when the tables are tipped AWAY from you ... and the ball is rolling out of your reach. If the tables are toward you and the ball (bucks) are rolling toward you ... huh ... what's a matter? nothings wrong with the table .. Curtis How often does one hear people talking about level playing fields except when it's already on the level but they want it slanted their way? Keith Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] My opinion: I think it's a pity. All of this broo-haha from advocates of level playing fields and free markets, and then when it comes to certain issues, free market advocacy goes out the window and we have socialism and subsidies, er, I'm sorry, tax breaks. And then we'll be told that in the free market nobody wanted more economical vehicles, electric vehicles and the like, when the playing field wasn't quite level, was it? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT - Nation's SUV Critics Are Gaining Traction
Hi MM Thanks for the cross-post. Yes, I agree - especially with the first para, and the last one. But Hubbert's Peak, well... It's often come up here in the past, but I just don't think it matters much, on three counts. First is the idea that known oil reserves, and other conventional energy reserves, are indeed known to any reliable extent. Yes, we're told it's all much more accurate now than it was three, two or even one decade ago, but I keep seeing it shifting all the time. Here's the latest one, about one a week: The U.S. Geological Survey has announced that there is far more coal bed methane gas available in the Powder River Basin than previously thought -- while simultaneously acknowledging that the Rocky Mountain West contains far less oil than the agency had claimed in earlier estimates. In the Powder River Valley, which straddles Montana and Wyoming, the USGS says there is a whopping 14 times more coal bed methane than suggested in initial studies, for a total of some 14.3 trillion cubic feet. (That estimate reflects all gas in the region, not just the portion that would be economically feasible to extract.) Despite environmental concerns, the basin is widely seen as a cornerstone of the Bush administration's energy policy. Meanwhile, the USGS estimated that it had exaggerated its 1995 estimate of oil in the Rocky Mountain West, another favored Bush energy source, by 844 million barrels. - Billings Gazette, 18 Dec 2002 http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1display=rednews/2002/12/ 18/build/wyoming/cbmestimates.inc CBM gas estimates increased by 14 times And that's in the US, not exactly an uncharted wilderness. Earl says ... there are possible large reserves in central Asian nations. They would seem to be massive enough to make a world of difference, quite literally, but it's all at sea when it comes to accurate figures, they keep changing. Nobody knows. You can't make accurate predictions of how long a resource will last if you don't know how much of it there is in the first place. Along with this I think we should be sceptical about just who the figures come from, not quite folks who might not have their own angle on it - the USGS is often accused of that, apparently with justification, governments have an angle, the energy companies have an angle. Some governments base their entire geopolitical strategy on it, and are not famous for telling the truth about it. This coal bed methane story above wouldn't have anything to do with the current administration's intentions towards it, now would it? Rather a hot potato. Those with the best figures on the reserves almost certainly lie to us. Second is that there are plenty of alternatives, and more will emerge. One alternative is coal - there's an enormous amount of coal in reserve, and low-grade coal that won't even burn can easily be turned into gasoline and diesel fuel via the Fischer-Tropsche process, as in South Africa for many decades, and now elsewhere. If you only look at Hubbert's Peak, solutions such as this might seem to be the answer, but they're not, there's a lot make to it than just Hubbert's Peak. Also, technology is not something that stands still - I get told that when I'm sceptical about the known reserves, but somehow it's not seen to apply to improvements in extraction, utilization and much besides. Josh Tickell said this here a while back: As of '97, we had extracted 807 billion barrels of oil and 995 billion barrels of extractable oil remained in the earth's crust. We're consuming 24 billion barrels a year with an annual consumption increase of 2%. Here's the key: there is another trillion barrels of oil buried under rock sediment and in other virtually inaccessible areas. The cost to extract it will equate in 2000 dollars to over $5 a gallon for gasoline at US pumps. The marginal utility of gasoline (the point at which the demand for gasoline begins to decline) is $3 a gallon. Who's going to extract oil they can't sell? The end of oil is not about geology, it's about profit margins. Perhaps, but most people in the world already pay about $5 at the pump, which doesn't seem to deter them very much. Americans probably also pay about that, but not at the pump, it's mostly hidden - and the rest of the world says US fuel is way too cheap anyway, which it is. The time is coming when Americans will pay the same as everyone else. Let it be soon, hopefully it will see a good deal less wastefulness - Americans use more than twice as much energy per capita as Europeans or Japanese (let alone Indians or Tanzanians). Anyway, what counts isn't so much what they pay per gallon as what they pay per mile - what becomes of the marginal utility of gasoline when you're driving an Insight or a Prius? If you're prepared to pay $3 a gallon to go 20 miles, won't you pay $12 a gallon to go 80 miles? And re all the stuff locked in the rocks, anyone want to bet on how long it'll
Re: [biofuel] Level Playing Fields Was: SUV, truck owners get a big tax break
On Sat, 21 Dec 2002 22:37:29 -0600, you wrote: Well, you gotta understand that leveling the playing field is something you grumble about only when the tables are tipped AWAY from you ... and the ball is rolling out of your reach. Maybe. But if you can get just one person to recognize this. And the friggin hypocrisy of it. And say something about it. And demand that the refs be brought in, demand that they cease their drunken stupor, and their bribe-taking, and get with the program. When the table's tipped toward me on EVs, and other alt fuels, and other a-e issues, I treat it on a case-by-case basis but am certainly guilty of a certain amount of reticence. There are too many ways in which the table is tipped against me for me to raise my voice too loudly when it seems temporarily slightly toward me. Moreover, an accurate description would be a much more complex table with a lot of warps and curves in it, not too mention its overall tilt which is fairly difficult to discern, what with all the warps and curves and dips and valleys and what-not. So, I make generally clear that I am in favor of a level playing field, free markets, individual freedoms, property rights, and I take what I think is a not hypocritical point of view that if someone wants to advocate some specific industry's free-ing up, such as for example drilling in ANWR, then they at least ought be more willing to do this consistently, and not just that particular instance of free-ing up of industry. I have a further comment on this issue that will have to wait till later, as it pertains to sort of an ongoing situation. Here again, I'd want to ask to make sure: are you aware that I posted this to three groups and you paired it down to one? I understand that you may not belong to evworld.com but I just want to make sure that this was deliberate on your part and not some oversight. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
MM wrote: In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Ah, but I thought no modifications were needed, according to what Keith and others have been saying. Whence this policy of a major government of the country that produces arguably the world's best auto technology? It's not a policy of a major government, it's part of a proposal by a study group. That's not quite what I've been saying. In fact I haven't said much about it, other than to quote what other people have said, and to ask, Where's the damage? - apart from an outboard motor that allegedly splutters. What this story from Japan says is rather different to what you seem to think - didn't you read the next paragraph? It's an emissions concern, that's all. It says safety tests, that means environmental safety, not engine-damage safety. You seem very keen to reach the conclusion that 10% ethanol damages motors, I don't understand why. This is what it says: The Environment Ministry in fiscal 2003 will conduct safety tests to establish whether the low-concentration blended gasoline can be used in existing vehicles. The ministry also plans to set up and subsidize low-concentration blended fuel pumps at gasoline stands in some regions. In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Enabling vehicles to handle the blended fuel would require automakers to change the catalytic control device, which removes nitrogen dioxides. The Environment Ministry plans to subsidize the cost of changing this device. Best Keith Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles Dec 16, 2002 The Asahi Shimbun http://www.asahi.com/english/national/K2002121600230.html An Environment Ministry study group will propose a policy of blending alcohol into gasoline to create a cleaner fuel for motor vehicles-a move that could radically change the auto industry. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Cars in 2010
Hi Hoagy, how've you been? Bit more below on this one: Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Cars in 2010 Dec 19, 2002 http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=newscat=4id=243380 Japan aims to introduce an ambitious program intended to recycle leftover food, livestock droppings and scrap wood as biomass energy to fuel cars, ships and power plants, starting in 2010, according to a report obtained Thursday. A final government draft of the Biomass Nippon (Japan) strategy, obtained by Kyodo News, says the government will designate some 500 communities as model areas for intensively implementing projects to utilize biomass energy. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20021220a7.htm The Japan Times Online Biomass recycling program planned for launch in 2010 Japan is targeting 2010 for the introduction of an ambitious program to recycle leftover food, livestock manure and scrap wood as biomass energy to fuel cars, ships and power plants, according to a report obtained Thursday. A final government draft of the Biomass Nippon strategy, obtained by Kyodo News, says the government will designate some 500 communities as model areas for intensively implementing projects to utilize biomass energy. Biomass fuel, made from animal, plant and other organic wastes, is expected to contribute to fighting global warming through cutting the use of fossil fuels and thereby reducing the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, according to the document. The United States and the European Union have both set targets of tripling the use of biomass energy by 2010. According to the final Biomass Nippon draft, the government will launch by March 31 a study to assess the quality of diesel fuel made from used rapeseed oil and other food waste, and test the fuel in cars and ships. The strategy also includes building biomass power plants to be fueled by scrap wood and methane gas originating from animal droppings, promoting usage of biomass products made from manure, and using ethanol abstracted from plants as automobile fuel. The projects are expected to generate 260 billion yen in the economy in 2010 if they are carried out as stipulated, officials said. The government hopes the biomass-related technology and products will develop into a new strategic industry, they said. The government is expected to unveil the Biomass Nippon strategy by the end of the year and start work on related legislation early next year, according to the officials. The Japan Times: Dec. 20, 2002 (C) All rights reserved Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
Re these two stories Hoagy posted, Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Cars in 2010 and Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles, it's very gratifying to see that the major focus is on waste, and on the community level. Most previous proposals have been high-tech stuff for big industry, so this really is a change. One of the movers behind these proposals is Associate Prof. Yuta Harago at Meiji-Gakuin University, who runs the Biomass Industrial Society Network. He previously did a lot of work with biomass in Brazil, working with Mercedes-Benz and local communities there, and in Mexico and elsewhere in Latin America, and more recently here. He spent time with us in Tokyo, and much time at our website, and he's been a Biofuel list member for a year now. His book on biomass energy for Japan was published here last month, and is proving very influential. The first chapter starts like this: Example one - Running a car on handmade energy, and continues with a Japanese translation of the following, which might sound familiar: We turned our kitchen into a sort of illicit still and made a hell of a mess in there brewing biodiesel fuel out of about 60 litres of yukky waste cooking oil we got from behind McDonald's one night (they were happy to give it to us once we told them we didn't want to eat it). We were sure it would work, but we had to make it ourselves first -- we're not chemists, and if we can make it anyone can. And it works! Amazing! Last night we put the stuff in Midori's old diesel Land Rover and it ran like a dream and smelt like a bunch of roses! Well, French fried roses anyway. Now it runs clean, on waste Big Mac residues we brewed up in a bucket in the kitchen, and we're very tickled! With the link: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html Biodiesel: Journey to Forever :-) Quite a lot of the information comes from our website. We're still in touch with Yuta, we get notified of the meetings and conferences and so on, but we don't go, especially since we're not in Tokyo now, but also, rather than the level where 500 communities get selected for trials, we prefer working in one community, from the ground up, and we'll be doing that in a rural community in Ichijima from next month. This will be the final phase of our project here in Japan before leaving on the rest of our journey. Best Keith Journey to Forever Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles Dec 16, 2002 The Asahi Shimbun http://www.asahi.com/english/national/K2002121600230.html An Environment Ministry study group will propose a policy of blending alcohol into gasoline to create a cleaner fuel for motor vehicles-a move that could radically change the auto industry. The initial goal is to help the nation achieve its greenhouse gas reduction target under the Kyoto Protocol. But the ultimate aim is to have the blended fuel, with a plant-derived ethanol content of 10 percent, completely replace regular gasoline, according to the group headed by Waseda University professor Katsuya Nagata. The group, which includes scientists and representatives of the auto industry, was set up to study technology to deal with global warming. For its part, the ministry will promote the spread of vehicles capable of using the blended fuel. The ministry intends to begin the switch as early as 2008. The Kyoto Protocol obliges Japan to reduce greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide by 6 percent from the 1990 level during the period from 2008 to 2012. The study group determined that motor vehicles belch out about 20 percent of greenhouse gas emissions in Japan. If regular gasoline is converted to the blended fuel, it would be possible to reduce emissions by 1 percent from the 1990 level, according to the study group. The Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry has already started to develop a system to promote the spread of low-concentration blended gasoline containing between 1 percent and 5 percent plant-derived ethanol. The Environment Ministry in fiscal 2003 will conduct safety tests to establish whether the low-concentration blended gasoline can be used in existing vehicles. The ministry also plans to set up and subsidize low-concentration blended fuel pumps at gasoline stands in some regions. In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Enabling vehicles to handle the blended fuel would require automakers to change the catalytic control device, which removes nitrogen dioxides. The Environment Ministry plans to subsidize the cost of changing this device. The cost of the ethanol-gasoline mix is currently about 30 percent higher than that of regular gasoline, mainly because ethanol must be refined after being imported. But the price will come down to the level of regular gasoline when the government lowers the tariff on ethanol and
Re: [biofuel] Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Carsin 2010
Keith wrote: Hi Hoagy, how've you been? Bit more below on this one: Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Cars in 2010 Dec 19, 2002 http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=newscat=4id=243380 http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20021220a7.htm The Japan Times Online Biomass recycling program planned for launch in 2010 Thanks Keith, MUCH appreciated. I've been reading bits pieces about the ethanol Australian connection. Reminds me of the USA ethanol, then called gasohol or some such, controversy. The only serious problem I recall when using a 10% ethanol/90% gasoline fuel blend was back in the mid 1980's when a large USA retail fuel distributor with hundreds of fuel service stations had tainted gasohol blends. They still have this tainted problem with gasoline only fuels, too. Not quite sure why they persist. I'll leave that to the speculators while I've moved on to more reliable sources. Although there was a transitional period in the 1980s when engines and fuel system parts such as gasket, seal, plastic, rubber and some metallic parts may have needed to be upgraded similar to biodiesel. My pre 1980's vehicles required a carburetor metallic float replacement at one time including my 1980 Honda Civic which spent half its life in Minnesota USA at times consuming gasohol. This car managed to accumulate about 230,000 miles (370,000 km) before the winter salted roads severally damaged the under body after 14 years of service and the engine only used about one quart of 10W-30 weight oil every 1800 miles which isn't bad considering a new car of this vintage after the initial break-in period requires about 1 quart every 2000 miles which still holds true today with my 1997 Geo Metro or as I call it my GeMe. Who wrote something about cleaning or changing fuel filters which should be listed in his or her vehicles owner or service manual according to time or distance traveled. This is not fuel specific to my knowledge but periodic preventative maintenance which seems understandable to me when considering the dust, dirt and metallic piping containment transference's fuels go through within their lifetime. Supposedly my GeMe and 88 Chevy Sprint are notorious for requiring fuel filter changes, or so I've heard, and yet I've not done so after an averaged fifty thousand miles each even though this past year ten percent ethanol blended gasoline is now locally available, thank goodness. Best wishes, Hoagy Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Japan: Country Eyes Bioenergy-fueled Plants, Carsin 2010
MH wrote: Although there was a transitional period in the 1980s when engines and fuel system parts such as gasket, seal, plastic, rubber and some metallic parts may have needed to be upgraded similar to biodiesel. My pre 1980's vehicles required a carburetor metallic float replacement at one time including my 1980 Honda Civic which spent half its life in Minnesota USA at times consuming gasohol. This car managed to accumulate about 230,000 miles (370,000 km) before the winter salted roads severally damaged the under body after 14 years of service and the engine only used about one quart of 10W-30 weight oil every 1800 miles which isn't bad considering a new car of this vintage after the initial break-in period requires about 1 quart every 2000 miles which still holds true today with my 1997 Geo Metro or as I call it my GeMe. I'm sorry but I've made a dreadful mistake. My 1980 Honda Civic provided nearly 16 years of service. So sorry for my confusion. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT - Nation's SUV Critics Are Gaining Traction
Reply Below --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some interesting ideas Earl. I'm going to take the liberty of passing them along to a few other discussion areas. MM Thanks for the post; it was a reasonable editorial. It really makes me angry to to hear counter-criticisms like denying freedom of choice to hundreds of thousands of sublimely happy SUV owners and Alliance against Fun. These people just don't get it (because of course our government and media won't tell them the truth). People shouldn't have have the right to drive irresponsible cars just to please themselves any more than they have the right to drive on the sidewalk for fun: they're both extremely dangerous. Indeed the former is in the long run going to cause a lot more death. So I would make the case a little more forcefully: What makes an SUV an irresponsible car? Irresponsible drivers make mistakes... they are not sports cars and should not be driven as one. OtherwiseExtremely Dangerous offroad? Are u nuts.. While there is a danger is is very small for the avg. offroaders and the danger is to the driver who chose to take the risk not bystanders. Obviously the danger goes higher for off road speed racing but again to the driver. It remains extremely low in the Rock Crawling competitions. ATV use is new relatively. The learning curve is kicking it. Their speeds are coming down and their good stewardship of land they use is on the rise. As an AVID offroader (Lightly published amateur journalist in offroad circles, and Moderator of a well know hardcore 4x4 web site [pirate4x4.com] I know of thousands of 4 wheelers that take pride in their good stewardship of mother earth. There are far less jerks and uneducated offroaders and it is they that cause problems. Unfortunately it is the Jerks and uneducated that are visible and what opinions are based on. The offroading world is working VERY hard to reach the uneducated offroaders and to curb the Jerks. I love my offroading adventures yet I see upcomming fuel problems. My decision to go with Bio-Diesel/ Veg oil use is largely based on wanting to do better for the economy and to further protect the land I love to explore, Yeah protect... as in wont have to dig a new wells for oil to provide my and other offroaders fuel needs. And the Veg oil use keeps the farmers working. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT - Nation's SUV Critics Are Gaining Traction
GP Jessup III-coachgeo3, has it somehow slipped your mind that you've stated this case here before, and very much got the worst of it? Now you come back a few months later and say it all over again as if it never happened, using the arguments that got you such a drubbing last time. I'm sorry, but that's just boring - if you really have forgotten it all, then please go to the archives and look up the thread Open Season on Open Space, plus associated threads, and if you still want to be so bold then try to find an argument that didn't get blown away last time. You can start here if you like: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=15122list=BIOFUEL Fairly typical of the response you got: Harmon, The tire spikes and razor wire may be a little severe but, I can empathise with your disgust. I have personally left a couple of dickheads laying crumpled in the dust(one got a good left hook and the other a nice kick in the balls) for their blatant disregard for my right to keep my property free from earth abusers. I believe that there will come a time real soon where people who commit crimes against the earth will be prosecuted with equal fervor as those who commit crimes against people. kris --- harmonseaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], coachgeo3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am an avide offroader and we have seen PUBLIC land closed to the PUBLIC way to much. Yes... their are peope who abuse the land but lets punish that small percentage not the larger percentage of those who do not. All, and I mean *ALL*, motorized offroad use needs to be stopped ASAP. And that includes motorboats. There's just no excuse for polluting and using up precious resources for recreation. The noise factor alone is reason enough. If the gov't won't do it, I'll bet tire spikes in the trails and barbed wire neck high will. I have property in the north woods in a national forest -- the off-roaders laugh at no-tresspass signs. People in WI and MN have been threatened, assualted, and even run over when trying to stop off-roaders from trespassing on their property. Off-roaders are a pack of disgusting subhuman vermin the world could do without. Anybody too lazy to get off their fat ass and walk, ski, paddle, or sail shouldn't be allowed in the outofdoors. You say: [pirate4x4.com] I know of thousands of 4 wheelers that take pride in their good stewardship of mother earth. MM's cross-post was about future energy supplies, about America going to WAR - KILLING people - to commandeer oil supplies in other people's countries (property right? - who's talking about property right?), my response mentioned (as usual) that America WASTES half its (?) energy (at the very least), and you're talking about driving gas-guzzlers for FUN?? - and claiming that people who do it can in some miraculous manner be acting as good stewards of mother earth? Pardon me (or not) but that is BIZARRE. SPORTS Utility Vehicles - what the hell is that? Utility is not sport, nor sport utility, and vehicles, especially these greedy ones, are not TOYS. There's a war on, in case you didn't notice - no, not the next Iraqi war that hasn't quite yet happened, that's just another phase, it's been going on for some time, with no shortage of collateral victims - DEAD people. Hundreds of thousands of them, or more. During WWII in Britain the message was: Is your journey really necessary? Why don't you ask yourself that, and then come and tell us about SUVs and good stewardship. Good grief. I love my offroading adventures yet I see upcomming fuel problems. Get a burro. My decision to go with Bio-Diesel/ Veg oil use is largely based on wanting to do better for the economy and to further protect the land I love to explore, Yeah protect... as in wont have to dig a new wells for oil to provide my and other offroaders fuel needs. And the Veg oil use keeps the farmers working. Wasting energy is wasting energy, it doesn't matter what sort of energy you're wasting - simply substituting nice green biofuels for horrible dirty fossil fuels is no less irresponsible if you're wasting it. And you are. Unimog 404s were not built for fun. Keith Reply Below --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some interesting ideas Earl. I'm going to take the liberty of passing them along to a few other discussion areas. MM Thanks for the post; it was a reasonable editorial. It really makes me angry to to hear counter-criticisms like denying freedom of choice to hundreds of thousands of sublimely happy SUV owners and Alliance against Fun. These people just don't get it (because of course our government and media won't tell them the truth). People shouldn't have have the right to drive irresponsible cars just to please themselves any more than they have the right to drive on the sidewalk for fun: they're both extremely
[biofuel] Fwd: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com From: Sam Jai-In [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 16:29:41 + (GMT) Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles Thanks for this info as it brought me a big relieve that the Japanese are now thinking of Ethanol and Biodiesel! For the past three years that we have tried to launch biofuel program in Thailand where most carsmotorcycles are Japanese-made, those who have always come up with NEGATIVE views of biofuel are Japanese motor companies as well as some engineering associations. They would raise all sort of reasons such as emissions, material compatability, ozone formation, price etc etc. that seems endless. Now that their motherland is thinking about it, I surely hope that the critics will look at the issue under a different light. Perhaps, all other smaller countries can develop their biofuel programs and therefore, one day, they can hope to climb out of the poverty trap and the dependency on foreign aid packages! Samai Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:10:36 +0900, you wrote: MM wrote: In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Ah, but I thought no modifications were needed, according to what Keith and others have been saying. Whence this policy of a major government of the country that produces arguably the world's best auto technology? It's not a policy of a major government, it's part of a proposal by a study group. That's not quite what I've been saying. In fact I haven't said much about it, other than to quote what other people have said, and to ask, Where's the damage? - apart from an outboard motor that allegedly splutters. Yes, I mis-stated things and knew it as soon as I'd posted it, but figured it would come up further in whatever reply you made. What this story from Japan says is rather different to what you seem to think - didn't you read the next paragraph? It's an emissions concern, that's all. It says safety tests, that means environmental safety, not engine-damage safety. You seem very keen to reach the conclusion that 10% ethanol damages motors, I don't understand why. Actually, this nearly as much a mis-statement of my position as mine was of yours. My primary focus has been to nail down what are the effects (good or bad or indifferent) of *over* 10% mixtures. I've made that clear several times, and so have some of the interested parties in Australia, and so have some of the car manufacturers. That number (or 12 or 13%) was put on one of my own owner's manuals, a point which you just sort of dismissed out of hand as spin, (which meant I-have-no-idea-what). Furthermore, I've used 10% mixtures, once in a great while (on long trips) as have many other Americans, and so we can tell Australians truthfully, well, it's been in use for years now in parts of the U.S. and we seem to be doing fine with it, to my knowledge. I do think that some of the over-10% concerns have been answered, and I think that putting a 20% mixture, say, into my own vehicle is something I'd be *delighted* to do. But, I am putting myself in the position of motorists in Australia, Japan and elsewhere who know little or nothing of these debates and honestly want to know everything possible about what goes into their cars. The net result of anything like talking down to honest questioners from those countries will be a victory for the opposition. As to 10%, I'm sure that there are no untoward effects of introducing a 10% ethanol mixture where it hasn't been before, and this wasn't my main concern, although it does not hurt to go over a couple of points which I think have been glossed-over. -- Hoagy mentions some older parts had needed replacement, way back when he had his first foray into use of 10%. -- He also mentions the valuable point that some fuel providers have tainted goods no matter what. I'd add that if they can screw up gas, they're just as likely, if not more, to screw up a new more-complex mixture that their providers sort of want screwed up anyway. -- I have heard once or twice before something about fuel filters, so I have asked the questions honestly, because I had heard them. Specifically, I think I have read sometimes that since ethanol sometimes has a cleaning effect where it might loosen up deposits which might then clog the fuel filter, then this might be a one-time easily fixed effect, after which the car would theoretically run better, but during which things would be worse, and appear much worse to a driver unaware of all this. That, anyway, is my recollection of the scenario. The Environment Ministry in fiscal 2003 will conduct safety tests to establish whether the low-concentration blended gasoline can be used in existing vehicles. The ministry also plans to set up and subsidize low-concentration blended fuel pumps at gasoline stands in some regions. In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Enabling vehicles to handle the blended fuel would require automakers to change the catalytic control device, which removes nitrogen dioxides. The Environment Ministry plans to subsidize the cost of changing this device. I guess you're saying this implies their concern is not with changing parts affecting core mechanical operation so much as emissions, because they're talking about the catalytic converter. I did miss that. I didn't miss that the Environment Ministry appears to be a government body. Somewhat off emissions are not as great a concern to me as core vehicle function, because they're not going to be the first concern to Joe average driver when he asks himself if he's concerned about changes to fuel for sale down the block. Number one concern, for my money: long-term vehicle reliability. From what Hoagy says, that's extremely good in his experience of trying 10%, although when one digs deep there are some
Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip
zeta talk is an internet hoax! Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: William Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: William Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip LOL? my bud steve is getting progressively better images of the ol px! it is close enough that its moons are showing up including their induvidual movement over the 20 minutes of the exposure time. I blew this off over a year ago as an internet hoax - but analysing the file data on the images there is something showing up on the predicted coordinates by Orion's belt. Exactly where the sighting shaft on the pyramids use to point - given the presession since then of the eareths wobble. http://www.zetatalk.com/teams/tteam342.htm Look at the pictures - this with a rented backyard telescope. At the rate that the images r getting brighter we should be able to see what ever it is with a small scope like I have - 6, or by eye by 3/2003. Unlike all the pros vs debunkers arguing on the sci-astro yahoo site I am going to just watch the Astromony and see 4 myself - thanks! http://shift2003.kgmweb.com/modules.php?name=Contentpa=showpagepid=3 - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip oh, no, not the pole shift ;-) Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: William Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip China -- -- The vast reaches of mainland China will fare well during the coming pole shift for several reasons. Geographically, the land inland lies well above sea level and its moderate climate will in the main continue, but being closer to the new South Pole, India, than the previous North Pole, the climate will have shorter summers and longer, more bitter, winters. The primitive lifestyle of the majority of the people, who have learned to adapt stoically to harsh conditions both economic and political while living in what is essentially mud and straw houses or tents, will allow most to survive the pole shift and to adjust to difficult growing seasons afterwards. China will be ill prepared for the shift, due primarily to information suppression preventing new and Internet gossip from reaching the populace, and secondarily due to the sense in the governing elite that there is little they can do to protect or maintain the populace during such a catastrophe, and thus they wish to avoid any such discussions. China will be in the long night side of the Earth during the week of rotation stoppage. This situation tends to create huddling and talking activities, as the thought of being in perpetual darkness creates high anxiety, and thus the week passes. China's greatest worry comes from rain, the continuous deluges that will occur during the days that follow the pole shift. Denuded of forest during centuries of overpopulation, and having cultivated the wetlands so they no longer act as a sponge, inland China will find itself washed away into flooded and raging rivers. The water will spill over, creating vast moving bodies of water which will carry away all but stone structures, and cover those in wave after wave of muddy water. Few will survive these floods, leaving only those who have managed to cling to hill tops to survive not only these floods but also the high winds that occur during the shift itself. Starvation, already an problem China struggles with, will decimate survivors, but due to the tenacity of the Chinese people, those who survive these times will from communities that will participate in the transformation of the Earth into better times in the future. ZetaTalk T http://hometown.aol.com/poleshift/poleshft.htm www.zetatalk.com - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 11:10 AM Subject: [biofuel] OT: China Trip From an acquaintance. From: Pavlos Xorofas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: misc.survivalism Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 8:24 AM Subject: China Pavlos Xorofas Houston Texas Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read
Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip
I hope ur correct on that - however something is getting bigger very fast at the poistion that NASA discovered it at with the IRAS infared orbiting space telescope in 1983. So far an object THERE is moving too fast to be any known star in that part of the sky bringing with it several moons which are swirling enough to make circular blur during the short exposures times. http://www.zetatalk.com/teams/rogue/zeta6.htm - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip zeta talk is an internet hoax! Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: William Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: William Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip LOL? my bud steve is getting progressively better images of the ol px! it is close enough that its moons are showing up including their induvidual movement over the 20 minutes of the exposure time. I blew this off over a year ago as an internet hoax - but analysing the file data on the images there is something showing up on the predicted coordinates by Orion's belt. Exactly where the sighting shaft on the pyramids use to point - given the presession since then of the eareths wobble. http://www.zetatalk.com/teams/tteam342.htm Look at the pictures - this with a rented backyard telescope. At the rate that the images r getting brighter we should be able to see what ever it is with a small scope like I have - 6, or by eye by 3/2003. Unlike all the pros vs debunkers arguing on the sci-astro yahoo site I am going to just watch the Astromony and see 4 myself - thanks! http://shift2003.kgmweb.com/modules.php?name=Contentpa=showpagepid=3 - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip oh, no, not the pole shift ;-) Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: William Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip China -- -- The vast reaches of mainland China will fare well during the coming pole shift for several reasons. Geographically, the land inland lies well above sea level and its moderate climate will in the main continue, but being closer to the new South Pole, India, than the previous North Pole, the climate will have shorter summers and longer, more bitter, winters. The primitive lifestyle of the majority of the people, who have learned to adapt stoically to harsh conditions both economic and political while living in what is essentially mud and straw houses or tents, will allow most to survive the pole shift and to adjust to difficult growing seasons afterwards. China will be ill prepared for the shift, due primarily to information suppression preventing new and Internet gossip from reaching the populace, and secondarily due to the sense in the governing elite that there is little they can do to protect or maintain the populace during such a catastrophe, and thus they wish to avoid any such discussions. China will be in the long night side of the Earth during the week of rotation stoppage. This situation tends to create huddling and talking activities, as the thought of being in perpetual darkness creates high anxiety, and thus the week passes. China's greatest worry comes from rain, the continuous deluges that will occur during the days that follow the pole shift. Denuded of forest during centuries of overpopulation, and having cultivated the wetlands so they no longer act as a sponge, inland China will find itself washed away into flooded and raging rivers. The water will spill over, creating vast moving bodies of water which will carry away all but stone structures, and cover those in wave after wave of muddy water. Few will survive these floods, leaving only those who have managed to cling to hill tops to survive not only these floods but also the high winds that occur during the shift itself. Starvation, already an problem China struggles with, will decimate survivors, but due to the tenacity of the Chinese people, those who survive these times will
Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip
either the best master hoax in the history of the internet - or - at some point as px becomes visible without a scope they will just start to say that it is a comet and not to worry our pretty little heads about it. http://shift2003.kgmweb.com/ - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip zeta talk is an internet hoax! Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: William Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: William Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip LOL? my bud steve is getting progressively better images of the ol px! it is close enough that its moons are showing up including their induvidual movement over the 20 minutes of the exposure time. I blew this off over a year ago as an internet hoax - but analysing the file data on the images there is something showing up on the predicted coordinates by Orion's belt. Exactly where the sighting shaft on the pyramids use to point - given the presession since then of the eareths wobble. http://www.zetatalk.com/teams/tteam342.htm Look at the pictures - this with a rented backyard telescope. At the rate that the images r getting brighter we should be able to see what ever it is with a small scope like I have - 6, or by eye by 3/2003. Unlike all the pros vs debunkers arguing on the sci-astro yahoo site I am going to just watch the Astromony and see 4 myself - thanks! http://shift2003.kgmweb.com/modules.php?name=Contentpa=showpagepid=3 - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip oh, no, not the pole shift ;-) Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: William Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip China -- -- The vast reaches of mainland China will fare well during the coming pole shift for several reasons. Geographically, the land inland lies well above sea level and its moderate climate will in the main continue, but being closer to the new South Pole, India, than the previous North Pole, the climate will have shorter summers and longer, more bitter, winters. The primitive lifestyle of the majority of the people, who have learned to adapt stoically to harsh conditions both economic and political while living in what is essentially mud and straw houses or tents, will allow most to survive the pole shift and to adjust to difficult growing seasons afterwards. China will be ill prepared for the shift, due primarily to information suppression preventing new and Internet gossip from reaching the populace, and secondarily due to the sense in the governing elite that there is little they can do to protect or maintain the populace during such a catastrophe, and thus they wish to avoid any such discussions. China will be in the long night side of the Earth during the week of rotation stoppage. This situation tends to create huddling and talking activities, as the thought of being in perpetual darkness creates high anxiety, and thus the week passes. China's greatest worry comes from rain, the continuous deluges that will occur during the days that follow the pole shift. Denuded of forest during centuries of overpopulation, and having cultivated the wetlands so they no longer act as a sponge, inland China will find itself washed away into flooded and raging rivers. The water will spill over, creating vast moving bodies of water which will carry away all but stone structures, and cover those in wave after wave of muddy water. Few will survive these floods, leaving only those who have managed to cling to hill tops to survive not only these floods but also the high winds that occur during the shift itself. Starvation, already an problem China struggles with, will decimate survivors, but due to the tenacity of the Chinese people, those who survive these times will from communities that will participate in the transformation of the Earth into better times in the future. ZetaTalk T
Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip
It is many that claims that global warming and oil depletion is a hoax to, but between all the realities and hoaxes I prefer to deal with this. I is for me more likable to deal with something I might have a chance to effect, than wild useless information that are not possible to evaluate nor to do something about, if it is true. I do not have time for that, with my priorities, and I will not argue about this kind of things. I do not have energy enough for it and have to save on my energy resources, apart from that I belive that this, pole switch, zeta etc. is an energy wasting hoax. Hakan At 01:29 PM 12/22/2002 -1000, you wrote: either the best master hoax in the history of the internet - or - at some point as px becomes visible without a scope they will just start to say that it is a comet and not to worry our pretty little heads about it. http://shift2003.kgmweb.com/ - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip zeta talk is an internet hoax! Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: William Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: William Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip LOL? my bud steve is getting progressively better images of the ol px! it is close enough that its moons are showing up including their induvidual movement over the 20 minutes of the exposure time. I blew this off over a year ago as an internet hoax - but analysing the file data on the images there is something showing up on the predicted coordinates by Orion's belt. Exactly where the sighting shaft on the pyramids use to point - given the presession since then of the eareths wobble. http://www.zetatalk.com/teams/tteam342.htm Look at the pictures - this with a rented backyard telescope. At the rate that the images r getting brighter we should be able to see what ever it is with a small scope like I have - 6, or by eye by 3/2003. Unlike all the pros vs debunkers arguing on the sci-astro yahoo site I am going to just watch the Astromony and see 4 myself - thanks! http://shift2003.kgmweb.com/modules.php?name=Contentpa=showpagepid=3 - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip oh, no, not the pole shift ;-) Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: William Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip China -- -- The vast reaches of mainland China will fare well during the coming pole shift for several reasons. Geographically, the land inland lies well above sea level and its moderate climate will in the main continue, but being closer to the new South Pole, India, than the previous North Pole, the climate will have shorter summers and longer, more bitter, winters. The primitive lifestyle of the majority of the people, who have learned to adapt stoically to harsh conditions both economic and political while living in what is essentially mud and straw houses or tents, will allow most to survive the pole shift and to adjust to difficult growing seasons afterwards. China will be ill prepared for the shift, due primarily to information suppression preventing new and Internet gossip from reaching the populace, and secondarily due to the sense in the governing elite that there is little they can do to protect or maintain the populace during such a catastrophe, and thus they wish to avoid any such discussions. China will be in the long night side of the Earth during the week of rotation stoppage. This situation tends to create huddling and talking activities, as the thought of being in perpetual darkness creates high anxiety, and thus the week passes. China's greatest worry comes from rain, the continuous deluges that will occur during the days that follow the pole shift. Denuded of forest during centuries of overpopulation, and having cultivated the wetlands so they no longer act as a sponge, inland China will find itself washed
MODERATOR'S MESSAGE - was Re: [biofuel] OT: China Trip
No more Zeta Talk, Planet X, pole shift and/or etc. Thankyou. Keith Addison Moderator Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT - Nation's SUV Critics Are Gaining Traction
So I don't scare off to easy sorry that offends you. I have the right to voice my opinion as much as others. It's called standing up for what you believe in. Gee funny that when the supposedly earth friendly Green folk stand their ground over and over it is ok but when someone against their views does it... then it is evil. Shows right there the intolerance and narrow mindedness in the air. Sounds like those that once stood their ground bashing Negro's and Gay's. Tsk Tsk. Will some never learn. You will notice that none of my words every sited that I as on offroader resorted to violence and a few of the so called Good Samaritan Green folk responses did claim to or threaten too. So who is the good people here. In fact I have never heard of an offroader even speak, or write as evil of responses as I got previously much less resort to violence or threat of it toward persons and property. The sad thing is in this post you aired out your dirty laundry like a badge to wear. And if you really want to know, I got several emails off list by other offroaders who are members of this list in support of my comments last time and this. Many don't care to deal with the raging intolerance and narrow mindedness cause often these poor souls cause themselves harm all on their own with out much help. I, on the the other hand feel though some of them on the way to harming themselfs harm a few good people too so at times I speak out. Not often... maybe not often enough Sharing the earth responsibly GP Jessup III-coachgeo3 (notice I don't give a shiat if you put my name out there... its been there all along. BTW··. Was pointing out my name so quickly meant to be a subliminal threat? If so Im shaking in my boots. NAUGH --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GP Jessup III-coachgeo3, has it somehow slipped your mind that you've stated this case here before, and very much got the worst of it? Now you come back a few months later and say it all over again as if it never happened, using the arguments that got you such a drubbing last time. I'm sorry, but that's just boring - if you really have forgotten it all, then please go to the archives and look up the thread Open Season on Open Space, plus associated threads, and if you still want to be so bold then try to find an argument that didn't get blown away last time. You can start here if you like: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=15122list=BIOFUEL Fairly typical of the response you got: Harmon, The tire spikes and razor wire may be a little severe but, I can empathise with your disgust. I have personally left a couple of dickheads laying crumpled in the dust(one got a good left hook and the other a nice kick in the balls) for their blatant disregard for my right to keep my property free from earth abusers. I believe that there will come a time real soon where people who commit crimes against the earth will be prosecuted with equal fervor as those who commit crimes against people. kris --- harmonseaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], coachgeo3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am an avide offroader and we have seen PUBLIC land closed to the PUBLIC way to much. Yes... their are peope who abuse the land but lets punish that small percentage not the larger percentage of those who do not. All, and I mean *ALL*, motorized offroad use needs to be stopped ASAP. And that includes motorboats. There's just no excuse for polluting and using up precious resources for recreation. The noise factor alone is reason enough. If the gov't won't do it, I'll bet tire spikes in the trails and barbed wire neck high will. I have property in the north woods in a national forest -- the off-roaders laugh at no-tresspass signs. People in WI and MN have been threatened, assualted, and even run over when trying to stop off-roaders from trespassing on their property. Off-roaders are a pack of disgusting subhuman vermin the world could do without. Anybody too lazy to get off their fat ass and walk, ski, paddle, or sail shouldn't be allowed in the outofdoors. You say: [pirate4x4.com] I know of thousands of 4 wheelers that take pride in their good stewardship of mother earth. MM's cross-post was about future energy supplies, about America going to WAR - KILLING people - to commandeer oil supplies in other people's countries (property right? - who's talking about property right?), my response mentioned (as usual) that America WASTES half its (?) energy (at the very least), and you're talking about driving gas-guzzlers for FUN?? - and claiming that people who do it can in some miraculous manner be acting as good stewards of mother earth? Pardon me (or not) but that is BIZARRE. SPORTS Utility Vehicles - what the hell is
[biofuel] A DPV - Dog Powered Vehicle, (Fer Real)
This is from one of the frame builders off of my HPV group. I thought it was so creative that I just had to share it with all of you. fred Since the list is a bit slow lately, I thought I'd mention my latest commission. A DPV (Dog Powered Vehicle). http://www.stan3d.com/nudgecart/nudgecart.htm Nudge weighs 180 lbs and is 34 tall at the shoulders. He has cancer in one front leg. The wheels are 16 and 10. He is so Protective (ie. nasty) that they have to walk him late at night when there is no one around. They live 2 houses down from us and I've never seen the dog in person. The owner said that If I want to see the cart in action they would phone me the next time they go out. But I would have to stay across the street to avoid setting him off. Mark Stonich; BikeSmith Design Fabrication http://bikesmithdesign.com MNHPVA RECUMBENTS MINNESOTA Home Page: http://www.mnhpva.org Group Page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RecumbentsMN Post message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send a blank message to: recumbentsmn- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: A DPV - Dog Powered Vehicle, (Fer Real)
thats cool. Ive seen carts for paralyzed, damaged rear hips or rear legs of a dog but never the front. Not sure about a dog that is not safe to have around neighbors though. That is an accident waiting to happen unforutunately. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Fred Finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is from one of the frame builders off of my HPV group. I thought it was so creative that I just had to share it with all of you. fred Since the list is a bit slow lately, I thought I'd mention my latest commission. A DPV (Dog Powered Vehicle). http://www.stan3d.com/nudgecart/nudgecart.htm Nudge weighs 180 lbs and is 34 tall at the shoulders. He has cancer in one front leg. The wheels are 16 and 10. He is so Protective (ie. nasty) that they have to walk him late at night when there is no one around. They live 2 houses down from us and I've never seen the dog in person. The owner said that If I want to see the cart in action they would phone me the next time they go out. But I would have to stay across the street to avoid setting him off. Mark Stonich; BikeSmith Design Fabrication http://bikesmithdesign.com MNHPVA RECUMBENTS MINNESOTA Home Page: http://www.mnhpva.org Group Page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RecumbentsMN Post message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send a blank message to: recumbentsmn- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT - Nation's SUV Critics Are Gaining Traction
Jessup, If you are referring to Harmon as a Good Samaritain Green you are way off the mark. Harmon has advocated violence on many occasions. If you are going to bring up the point that you are a Good Off- roading Citizen, then you need to wear the colors of the jerk that insists on taking his vehicle through private property just for the fun of it. I was too a trail ridin' Tread Lightly off road runner. Many times I ended upside-down having the time of my life. It got too expensive for me and I decided that I would rather have tons of fun either riding my bicycle or see if I could build a moped that was capable of hauling my big butt around. I have done both and love it. If you choose to ride trails, be gentle and respectful. Also remember that you are going to be labeled with the fool that tries to do as much damage as possible with no regard to who may own the property. Just don't get into a pissing contest (sorry for the colorful language Keith) with everyone that disagrees with your views, it is not worth it. I needed to chime in on this one. fred --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, coachgeo3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I don't scare off to easy sorry that offends you. I have the right to voice my opinion as much as others. It's called standing up for what you believe in. Gee funny that when the supposedly earth friendly Green folk stand their ground over and over it is ok but when someone against their views does it... then it is evil. Shows right there the intolerance and narrow mindedness in the air. Sounds like those that once stood their ground bashing Negro's and Gay's. Tsk Tsk. Will some never learn. You will notice that none of my words every sited that I as on offroader resorted to violence and a few of the so called Good Samaritan Green folk responses did claim to or threaten too. So who is the good people here. In fact I have never heard of an offroader even speak, or write as evil of responses as I got previously much less resort to violence or threat of it toward persons and property. The sad thing is in this post you aired out your dirty laundry like a badge to wear. And if you really want to know, I got several emails off list by other offroaders who are members of this list in support of my comments last time and this. Many don't care to deal with the raging intolerance and narrow mindedness cause often these poor souls cause themselves harm all on their own with out much help. I, on the the other hand feel though some of them on the way to harming themselfs harm a few good people too so at times I speak out. Not often... maybe not often enough Sharing the earth responsibly GP Jessup III-coachgeo3 (notice I don't give a shiat if you put my name out there... its been there all along. BTW··. Was pointing out my name so quickly meant to be a subliminal threat? If so Im shaking in my boots. NAUGH --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GP Jessup III-coachgeo3, has it somehow slipped your mind that you've stated this case here before, and very much got the worst of it? Now you come back a few months later and say it all over again as if it never happened, using the arguments that got you such a drubbing last time. I'm sorry, but that's just boring - if you really have forgotten it all, then please go to the archives and look up the thread Open Season on Open Space, plus associated threads, and if you still want to be so bold then try to find an argument that didn't get blown away last time. You can start here if you like: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=15122list=BIOFUEL Fairly typical of the response you got: Harmon, The tire spikes and razor wire may be a little severe but, I can empathise with your disgust. I have personally left a couple of dickheads laying crumpled in the dust(one got a good left hook and the other a nice kick in the balls) for their blatant disregard for my right to keep my property free from earth abusers. I believe that there will come a time real soon where people who commit crimes against the earth will be prosecuted with equal fervor as those who commit crimes against people. kris --- harmonseaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], coachgeo3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am an avide offroader and we have seen PUBLIC land closed to the PUBLIC way to much. Yes... their are peope who abuse the land but lets punish that small percentage not the larger percentage of those who do not. All, and I mean *ALL*, motorized offroad use needs to be stopped ASAP. And that includes motorboats. There's just no excuse for polluting and using up precious resources for recreation. The noise factor alone is reason
Re: RE : [biofuel] Forest Fights
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:40:02 -, motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Motie, may I suggest the following? 1. It would be a nice idea to show some consideration to people (like me) with flaky Internet connections - like whetting the URL, whether the matter has already been discussed, if so what is the prevailing viewpoint, and what additional facets of the 'truth' that the article brings about. My apologies for not doing so. I am still highly pressed for time by matters beyond my control, and can't give the proper time to compose adequate responses. For now, I'll simply have to concede to the Sierra Club's perverted viewpoint, and let the matter drop. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT - Nation's SUV Critics Are Gaining Traction
Fred, Enjoy your new forms of recreation. I agree about private property. I have not wheeled on private property but once and it was unknowingly. I ventured down a trail that was not marked with No trespasing signs. It was late in the evening and I was picking a line to exit the trails thru the woods since I was alone. I rarely do that but was in need of getting away from it all. It was a very stressfull time in my life. Apparently at the top of this trail was once a gate. The gate had withered away and was completely unoticable. 20 minutes later I found that the only true path to exit the trail besides turning around was blocked by a gate. A paved road was on the otherside Back tracking on the trail alone at night was not a particularly sane thing to do. It was a very steep trail. Going down was marginaly difficult. Going up.. best to be done with an assistant to watch tire placement. The owner saw my headlights and walked thru the sage brush to confront me. He approaced me raging mad, I quickly appoligized, told him of the non existant gate above and asked if he would be kind enough to unlock the gate so I could leave respectfully. He chose to remame mad, and refused to unlock the exit gate. Instead he prefered I back track no matter that it was a safety issue. I retraced my path back but it was a very unsafe situation. Few days later I offered to help him solve the problem by offering thru a local offroading club to assist in rebuilding the gate that was withered away, so it would not happen again. He refused.. Ive moved since then. Last I heard a newbie ends up on that trail about once a year, and the whole things repeats. When someone gets injured he will be sued and loose the land. Why the guy shoots himself in the foot I have no idea. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Fred Finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jessup, If you are referring to Harmon as a Good Samaritain Green you are way off the mark. Harmon has advocated violence on many occasions. If you are going to bring up the point that you are a Good Off- roading Citizen, then you need to wear the colors of the jerk that insists on taking his vehicle through private property just for the fun of it. I was too a trail ridin' Tread Lightly off road runner. Many times I ended upside-down having the time of my life. It got too expensive for me and I decided that I would rather have tons of fun either riding my bicycle or see if I could build a moped that was capable of hauling my big butt around. I have done both and love it. If you choose to ride trails, be gentle and respectful. Also remember that you are going to be labeled with the fool that tries to do as much damage as possible with no regard to who may own the property. Just don't get into a pissing contest (sorry for the colorful language Keith) with everyone that disagrees with your views, it is not worth it. I needed to chime in on this one. fred --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, coachgeo3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I don't scare off to easy sorry that offends you. I have the right to voice my opinion as much as others. It's called standing up for what you believe in. Gee funny that when the supposedly earth friendly Green folk stand their ground over and over it is ok but when someone against their views does it... then it is evil. Shows right there the intolerance and narrow mindedness in the air. Sounds like those that once stood their ground bashing Negro's and Gay's. Tsk Tsk. Will some never learn. You will notice that none of my words every sited that I as on offroader resorted to violence and a few of the so called Good Samaritan Green folk responses did claim to or threaten too. So who is the good people here. In fact I have never heard of an offroader even speak, or write as evil of responses as I got previously much less resort to violence or threat of it toward persons and property. The sad thing is in this post you aired out your dirty laundry like a badge to wear. And if you really want to know, I got several emails off list by other offroaders who are members of this list in support of my comments last time and this. Many don't care to deal with the raging intolerance and narrow mindedness cause often these poor souls cause themselves harm all on their own with out much help. I, on the the other hand feel though some of them on the way to harming themselfs harm a few good people too so at times I speak out. Not often... maybe not often enough Sharing the earth responsibly GP Jessup III-coachgeo3 (notice I don't give a shiat if you put my name out there... its been there all along. BTW··. Was pointing out my name so quickly meant to be a subliminal threat? If so Im shaking in my boots.
[biofuel] (fwd) Further comments on Oil and U.S. Foreign Policy
Some further interesting comments on the case that Oil is affecting U.S. foreign policy in untoward ways. I don't subscribe to all these views, but I am passing them on for comment or consideration. Earl you forgot to mention the wild card in the bunch -- China, the dragon is waking up and will be hungry. Right. I figured it was a bit long as it was, and also I don't know as much about that part of the story. Here's a little that I do know. China is tenth on the list of countries with oil reserves (about 24 billion barrels), with less then one tenth of Saudi Arabia. (And much of this is in non-Chinese territories China invaded and annexed after the revolution: Xinjiang and Tibet. They're building a pipeline to move this oil to their east coast.) With more than a billion people, and its role as industrial production for the U.S., its potential appetite for oil is obvious. It used to be an oil exporter until 1993, and then became an importer instead. By 2020 over 50 percent of its petroleum is expected to be imported. There's another proposed pipeline to bring oil from Kazakhstan to China. [http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200103/23/eng20010323_65800.html] [http://www.cornellcaspian.com/pub/19_0108Kazakh-China.htm] By the way, a critical part of the whole Afghanistan story has the persistent dream of the oil companies and the U.S. government to get still another pipeline through Turkmenistan (which borders the Caspian Sea, along with Iran, Russia, Kazakhstan, and Azerbaijan), Afghanistan, and Pakistan to extract Caspian sea oil while avoiding OPEC countries. This could be used to feed any part of the world, including China, via the Indian Ocean. (Iran wanted the pipeline to go through their country, and so provided aid to the Northern Alliance to keep the Taliban from taking complete control of Afghanistan thereby keeping the pipeline on hold.) Unocal of Texas was a primary player in the pipeline effort as part of the CentGas consortium (e.g. Taliban representatives traveled to Sugarland Texas to negotiate with Unocal). Since the consortium and the U.S. were negotiating with the Taliban during the late 1990s, actions against Al-Qaeda were probably restrained, until the embassy attacks in 1998, at which point Clinton started again trying to hit bin Laden with cruise missles (after this point he ordered 3 strikes, but each time the CIA concluded their information wasn't accurate enough to go ahead). It wasn't until 7/4/1999 that Clinton issued an executive order prohibiting commercial transactions with the Taliban, definitely signaling his administration was giving up on the pipeline. Then it was reborn: Despite Al-Qaeda's attack on the U.S.S. Cole, one of the first acts of the Bush administration was to re-open negotiations with the Taliban over the pipeline, again putting action on Al-Qaeda on the back burner over oil (the War on Terrorism is only a marketing ploy). Is it any wonder that Cheney refuses to hand over all of his energy task force minutes? Interestingly, threats to invade Afghanistan over the pipeline issue were made before 9/11; they were told they could choose between carpets of bombs or carpets of gold. After we installed a new government in Afghanistan, the pipeline is finally moving ahead; Afghanistan's Hamid Karzai, Turkmenistan's President Niyazov, and Pakistani President Musharraf signed a MOU on it on 5/30/2002. [http://www.centralasiatravel.com/central_asia_map.html] [http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/completetimeline/index.htm] By the way, there are now U.S. troops in almost every one of the central Asian countries mentioned here. One quote to ponder to close this post: If one looks at the map of the big American bases created for the war, one is struck by the fact that they are completely identical to the route of the projected oil pipeline to the Indian Ocean. Uri Averny, in a Feb. 14 column in the daily Ma'ariv in Israel, as reported March 18, 2002 in the Chicago Tribune (Pipeline Politics Taint US War). [http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0318-02.htm] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT - Nation's SUV Critics Are Gaining Traction
I also feel the need to say something here, since it is not really are the true off-roading that is the major energy problem. It may or may not be a problem of where it is done, but as in so many cases there are irresponsible individuals that probably does not represent the majority. I learned to drive-off road first as a teenager with tractors in the field and forest, very little on-road use for farmers/foresters and if so, definitely not for pleasure on road transportation. I enhanced my of off-road education in the military, where I learned up to large 6-8 wheeler vehicles with trailers. I must say that I liked the off road experiences, especially in the small jeeps, and it probably added somewhat to my driving education. The problem with SUV is that probably nearly all of them never see an off road environment, it is cool to have them and there is where the stupidity starts. Many have some sort of complex that I do not want to mention, because then the flames will start to show for this email. They feel a power of some sort, in driving on-road with a SUV. It is however some that are using SUVs for towing trailers etc. and in this you can make a case for it. If you are a true responsible off-roader and only drive on-road to and from your off road environment, then you are probably using less fuel for your pleasure than the pleasure boater. So an expansion of the critics of off road driving and single this activity out, is not really productive. If the pleasure boater have the same instinct as most of the SUV owners, we can only be happy that they can't take their boats on-road. Just think about how the highways would look in rush hour, if they could go to and from work in their boats. I know that they often refer to cities as a Jungle, but I do not really think that you can motivate it as off-road environment where you need a SUV. For me you can take your SUV for off-road driving fun, but keep it exclusively for that and do not destroy/trespass without permission from landowners. Keep your SUV for your pleasure and have a fuel efficient car (preferably diesel) for your exclusive on road transportation. If you do not do that, you are irresponsible, without any doubts. Hakan At 02:22 AM 12/23/2002 +, you wrote: Jessup, If you are referring to Harmon as a Good Samaritain Green you are way off the mark. Harmon has advocated violence on many occasions. If you are going to bring up the point that you are a Good Off- roading Citizen, then you need to wear the colors of the jerk that insists on taking his vehicle through private property just for the fun of it. I was too a trail ridin' Tread Lightly off road runner. Many times I ended upside-down having the time of my life. It got too expensive for me and I decided that I would rather have tons of fun either riding my bicycle or see if I could build a moped that was capable of hauling my big butt around. I have done both and love it. If you choose to ride trails, be gentle and respectful. Also remember that you are going to be labeled with the fool that tries to do as much damage as possible with no regard to who may own the property. Just don't get into a pissing contest (sorry for the colorful language Keith) with everyone that disagrees with your views, it is not worth it. I needed to chime in on this one. fred --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, coachgeo3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I don't scare off to easy sorry that offends you. I have the right to voice my opinion as much as others. It's called standing up for what you believe in. Gee funny that when the supposedly earth friendly Green folk stand their ground over and over it is ok but when someone against their views does it... then it is evil. Shows right there the intolerance and narrow mindedness in the air. Sounds like those that once stood their ground bashing Negro's and Gay's. Tsk Tsk. Will some never learn. You will notice that none of my words every sited that I as on offroader resorted to violence and a few of the so called Good Samaritan Green folk responses did claim to or threaten too. So who is the good people here. In fact I have never heard of an offroader even speak, or write as evil of responses as I got previously much less resort to violence or threat of it toward persons and property. The sad thing is in this post you aired out your dirty laundry like a badge to wear. And if you really want to know, I got several emails off list by other offroaders who are members of this list in support of my comments last time and this. Many don't care to deal with the raging intolerance and narrow mindedness cause often these poor souls cause themselves harm all on their own with out much help. I, on the the other hand feel though some of them on the way to harming themselfs harm a few good people too so at times I speak out. Not often... maybe not often
[biofuel] Re: OT - Nation's SUV Critics Are Gaining Traction
Actually lots of offroaders would not be caught dead in the Mom's SUV's unless it is used as a tow rig. I agree, for a daily driver the big ones are a waste. I also agree that untrained folk storming around in them is not safe. Many dealers try to educate the new SUV owners and the manufactures state plainly in the owner's manuals that the driving style in such vehicles is different than the avg. vehicle. They also explain the differences. Well at least Jeep does this. Dont forget though.. the SUV's didn't not really get much bigger it is the Avg. car got smaller and less crash worthy. So who is to blame? I think there is fault in many areas myself. I myself have a Jeep TJ. It is my daily driver and a hardcore offroad vehicle. When I got it I could not afford a daily driver an a dedicated offroad rig.. It is for sale by the way. I now have an old dieselized Unimog that is a ruff Expedition camper. I will eventually get a small Suzikie Samurai and put a diesel VW in it. That will be my small offroad vehicle to use once I get to the campsite in the Unimog. I may even go smaller like a Diesel Powered ATV rig with Samurai axles. Anyway both will be run on Veg oil. I bought a Datsun Maxima diesel that will also be converted to veg oil to replace the jeep. I have not read the book you speak of but have heard of it and have heard there is an good amount of miss quotes and twisted data. In fact one of those misquoted is looking into suing the author. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What makes an SUV an irresponsible car? Irresponsible drivers make mistakes... they are not sports cars and should not be driven as one. OtherwiseExtremely Dangerous offroad? Are u nuts.. While there is a danger is is very small for the avg. offroaders and the danger is to the driver who chose to take the risk not bystanders. I don't know of any argument I've ever mustered against offroaders endangering themselves offroad. I'm not sure all offroaders are informed about the dangers, and as a consumer of insurance I'd like to see actuaries charge them rates which reflect real dangers, but whatever. The main problem, obviously, is that, by and large, the vehicles are not used for offroading but for driving on city streets and other streets with regular vehicles, and pose an unnecessary risk to other drivers. In effect drivers who choose to drive larger SUVs on regular roads when they don't have real reason for doing so are saying (knowingly or otherwise) up yours to the massive percentage increase in danger to occupants of other cars while, depending on whom you ask, they may be slightly improving the safety, or the perception of safety, of their own occupants. Drive all you want offroad, endanger your life, use all the gas you want. That's not the main thrust of the safety argument against SUVs. You're not addressing the main safety issue here. A recent book has brought these points out. Here is part of a review that deals more specifically with the danger to other drivers issue, than with the personal endangermenet from rollover or claimed offroad use: http://www.evworld.com/databases/printit.cfm?storyid=448 MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: RE : [biofuel] Forest Fights
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:40:02 -, motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Motie, may I suggest the following? 1. It would be a nice idea to show some consideration to people (like me) with flaky Internet connections - like whetting the URL, whether the matter has already been discussed, if so what is the prevailing viewpoint, and what additional facets of the 'truth' that the article brings about. My apologies for not doing so. I am still highly pressed for time by matters beyond my control, and can't give the proper time to compose adequate responses. For now, I'll simply have to concede to the Sierra Club's perverted viewpoint, and let the matter drop. Motie The views of Ronald Bailey and Reason Magazine, et al, are far more perverted and dishonest than anything the Sierra Club does. And, please, I'm very much on record here and elsewhere as NOT liking or defending the Sierra Club. Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
One thing I've read but don't recall experiencing is gum or varnish gasoline fuel system deposits which is what's bothering some concerned with fuel filters I take it. But then prior to local ethyl alcohol blended petrol I did fill the tank every third or fourth time with E-10 which might explain why my cars fuel filters haven't plugged. Come to think about it my older vehicles in near or sub freezing temperatures did get treated to some form of alcohol in a 8 or 12 ounce bottle per tank to alleviate condensation or frozen fuel lines. Not sure why my 19 yo mower of 11 yo chainsaw aren't troubled by gasoline only gum or varnish deposits. It's VERY possible I missed those messages that addressed those experiences and how they dealt with them. I can't help but think a engine fuel system that can tolerate methanol could easily tolerate ethanol. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: OT - Nation's SUV Critics Are Gaining Traction
GP Jessup III I notice you've simply ignored the points I raised in favour of a slanging match, not unexpected. They're these: [pirate4x4.com] I know of thousands of 4 wheelers that take pride in their good stewardship of mother earth. MM's cross-post was about future energy supplies, about America going to WAR - KILLING people - to commandeer oil supplies in other people's countries (property right? - who's talking about property right?), my response mentioned (as usual) that America WASTES half its (?) energy (at the very least), and you're talking about driving gas-guzzlers for FUN?? - and claiming that people who do it can in some miraculous manner be acting as good stewards of mother earth? Pardon me (or not) but that is BIZARRE. SPORTS Utility Vehicles - what the hell is that? Utility is not sport, nor sport utility, and vehicles, especially these greedy ones, are not TOYS. There's a war on, in case you didn't notice - no, not the next Iraqi war that hasn't quite yet happened, that's just another phase, it's been going on for some time, with no shortage of collateral victims - DEAD people. Hundreds of thousands of them, or more. During WWII in Britain the message was: Is your journey really necessary? Why don't you ask yourself that, and then come and tell us about SUVs and good stewardship. Good grief. I love my offroading adventures yet I see upcomming fuel problems. Get a burro. My decision to go with Bio-Diesel/ Veg oil use is largely based on wanting to do better for the economy and to further protect the land I love to explore, Yeah protect... as in wont have to dig a new wells for oil to provide my and other offroaders fuel needs. And the Veg oil use keeps the farmers working. Wasting energy is wasting energy, it doesn't matter what sort of energy you're wasting - simply substituting nice green biofuels for horrible dirty fossil fuels is no less irresponsible if you're wasting it. And you are. Unimog 404s were not built for fun. Try again. Or rather, try. So I don't scare off to easy sorry that offends you. I said it was boring, and it is. I have the right to voice my opinion as much as others. It's called standing up for what you believe in. You can dress it up in that fancy clothing if you like, like the emperor, but in fact waiting for six months before resuming an argument that you lost, and then describing the counter-arguments in the terms you've used isn't voicing your opinion or standing up for what you believe in, it's just self-delusion and sleazy behaviour. Gee funny that when the supposedly earth friendly Green folk stand their ground over and over it is ok but when someone against their views does it... then it is evil. Shows right there the intolerance and narrow mindedness in the air. Sounds like those that once stood their ground bashing Negro's and Gay's. Tsk Tsk. Will some never learn. Please indicate in the paragraphs copied above from my message yesterday exactly where and how it equates with intolerance and narrow mindedness, and with Negro and Gay bashing. If you can't do that then withdraw these comments and apologise. You will notice What you haven't noticed, among very many other things, is that I took very little part in the argument six months ago. It was more or less confined to criticisms you made of an article I posted, this one: http://www.motherjones.com/magazine/JA02/openspaces.html Open Season on Open Space Your criticisms were poorly based, poorly reasoned, mistaken, and prejudiced, and I said so. Here, with your response: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?keywords=GP+Jessup+IIIlist=biofuel This was how it ended: Well Kieth. guess I'll be man enough to call it a truce here or this will go on for ever hahah.. we agree to disagree. I let you get away with that, but it wasn't a truce, it was a rout. that none of my words every sited that I as on offroader resorted to violence and a few of the so called Good Samaritan Green folk responses did claim to or threaten too. So who is the good people here. In fact I have never heard of an offroader even speak, or write as evil of responses as I got previously much less resort to violence or threat of it toward persons and property. The sad thing is in this post you aired out your dirty laundry like a badge to wear. My dirty laundry? See above - prove it or withdraw it and apologise. I did however air out some rather pertinent arguments which you've ignored, but the ostrich technique is not a good one, they won't go away. And if you really want to know, I got several emails off list by other offroaders who are members of this list in support of my comments last time and this. Many don't care to deal with the raging intolerance and narrow mindedness Harmon is intolerant, the rest of the arguments, for example, those from Todd and others, were simply too much for you, and for them, so you have a little confab off-list where you can prop
[biofuel] Australian ethanol - was Re: Japan: Environment Ministry High on Alcohol-Fueled Vehicles
Hi MM On Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:10:36 +0900, you wrote: MM wrote: In addition, it will urge the auto industry to produce 2003 models capable of using gas containing 10 percent ethanol. Ah, but I thought no modifications were needed, according to what Keith and others have been saying. Whence this policy of a major government of the country that produces arguably the world's best auto technology? It's not a policy of a major government, it's part of a proposal by a study group. That's not quite what I've been saying. In fact I haven't said much about it, other than to quote what other people have said, and to ask, Where's the damage? - apart from an outboard motor that allegedly splutters. Yes, I mis-stated things and knew it as soon as I'd posted it, but figured it would come up further in whatever reply you made. What this story from Japan says is rather different to what you seem to think - didn't you read the next paragraph? It's an emissions concern, that's all. It says safety tests, that means environmental safety, not engine-damage safety. You seem very keen to reach the conclusion that 10% ethanol damages motors, I don't understand why. Actually, this nearly as much a mis-statement of my position as mine was of yours. My primary focus has been to nail down what are the effects (good or bad or indifferent) of *over* 10% mixtures. I've made that clear several times, and so have some of the interested parties in Australia, and so have some of the car manufacturers. You've talked of over, at, and below 10%. I've given you a lot of info on it and links to more, yet you've still said your question is unanswered, and then you posted this comment on the Japanese proposal of 10% with apparent glee, and got it wrong, since it has nothing to do with engine damage, and hence my puzzlement. You have been quite specific that your concerns are about engine damage. That number (or 12 or 13%) was put on one of my own owner's manuals, a point which you just sort of dismissed out of hand as spin, (which meant I-have-no-idea-what). Furthermore, I've used 10% mixtures, once in a great while (on long trips) as have many other Americans, and so we can tell Australians truthfully, well, it's been in use for years now in parts of the U.S. and we seem to be doing fine with it, to my knowledge. I do think that some of the over-10% concerns have been answered, and I think that putting a 20% mixture, say, into my own vehicle is something I'd be *delighted* to do. But, I am putting myself in the position of motorists in Australia, Japan and elsewhere who know little or nothing of these debates and honestly want to know everything possible about what goes into their cars. The net result of anything like talking down to honest questioners from those countries will be a victory for the opposition. Why do you think anyone's been talking down? At least among those promoting ethanol use? You somehow had the impression of an overly aggressive or technologically irresponsible campaign to introduce ethanol there, but that doesn't seem to have been the case. I gave you information on that too, it seems to have been sensible and orderly, until this disinformation campaign by the oil interests and their friends. As to 10%, I'm sure that there are no untoward effects of introducing a 10% ethanol mixture where it hasn't been before, and this wasn't my main concern, although it does not hurt to go over a couple of points which I think have been glossed-over. -- Hoagy mentions some older parts had needed replacement, way back when he had his first foray into use of 10%. The Environment Australia report I referenced talked of that too. Several reports have stated that this is no longer an issue, neither for 10% nor for higher blends. It isn't a concern in Japan either. Why do you say it's been glossed over? You said earlier: While I am not likely to become an expert on ethanol by going to some of the pages you suggest, I would like to nail down the basic question here of whether somewhat higher percentages can bring about somewhat different issues for motorists. You also said you hadn't looked at some reports before responding. You didn't look at this Japanese one very well before responding. You don't seem to have checked the archives on the history of the ethanol initiative in Australia as suggested, and thus still seem to think it's been over-hasty. Is it perhaps the case that you're not following up on information provided in answer to your questions and then saying your questions haven't been answered? If you haven't had the time, well, nobody has any time to spare, maybe it might be better to wait until you have had the time? -- He also mentions the valuable point that some fuel providers have tainted goods no matter what. That point was also made in the letter I posted from the ABA via Mike Jureidini. The gas was polluted, but not by ethanol, but ethanol was
