[biofuels-biz] Hydrogen Cars Remain Decades in the Future Under New Budget
Hydrogen Cars Remain Decades in the Future Under New Budget By DANNY HAKIM (NYT) The Bush administration plan to spur development of hydrogen cars does not envision mass production until 2020. ETROIT, Feb. 4 - The Bush administration plan to spur development of hydrogen cars does not envision mass production until 2020. The plan also says there will not be enough research and installations like fueling stations to decide whether the technology is commercially viable until 2015. Details of the initiatives were laid out in the 2004 budget, which was released yesterday and included $273 million for research into hydrogen fuel cells, as well as in material from the Energy Department. The proposals include research on whether nuclear and coal power could be used to create hydrogen, a strategy that environmental groups say would undermine the benefits of hydrogen cars. But more money would go to renewable energy. Fuel cells generate electricity through a chemical reaction of hydrogen and oxygen, and many automakers see the technology as an eventual replacement for the internal combustion engine. Cars that run on fuel cells would have water vapor as the sole tailpipe emission. The overall emissions would be dictated by how the hydrogen was produced. President Bush will offer further details of the plan on Thursday in a speech at the National Building Museum in Washington. Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham will give a speech here on Friday on the policy. The administration plans to spend $1.7 billion over five years on two projects, the FreedomCar, to explore making the technology work in cars, and FreedomFuel, which will study how to produce, store and deliver hydrogen. The military is also researching fuel cells. Among the goals would be a demonstration fleet of fuel cell vehicles. Last year, Toyota and Honda set up such fleets in California. Next year, $19.6 million would be spent on possibly using onboard re-formers to strip hydrogen from gasoline and $28 million would go to research cheaper and more efficient fuel cells. Money would be earmarked to research internal combustion engines fueled by hydrogen instead of gasoline, a technology that BMW and Ford have explored. The administration has tried to court environmental groups by briefing them about its initiatives, but the groups are increasingly skeptical. They need another zero on the end of their figures if they are serious about realizing the promise of fuel cell vehicles, said David Friedman, a senior expert at the Union of Concerned Scientists. The 2020 production target would send effects of the program far into the future, Mr. Friedman said. The average lifetime for a car is 15 years, he added. So that's 30 years before this program will significantly effect our oil dependence. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] how to make ehanol from wood with sulfuric acid
Steve Spence I read one of your topics on how to make ethanol from sawdust please contact me I need more details. - Original Message - From: Steve Spence To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Biodiesel - Egroups ; Biofuel - Egroups ; Alternate Power - Egroups ; 3rdworldenergy ; BFIC ; biofuels-biz ; bio-oil ; BiomassGroup ; EcoPages_Newswire ; future9 ; homeenergysolutions ; sustainablenrg ; vegoil-diesel ; wastewatts Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:40 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Hydrogen Cars Remain Decades in the Future Under New Budget Hydrogen Cars Remain Decades in the Future Under New Budget By DANNY HAKIM (NYT) The Bush administration plan to spur development of hydrogen cars does not envision mass production until 2020. ETROIT, Feb. 4 - The Bush administration plan to spur development of hydrogen cars does not envision mass production until 2020. The plan also says there will not be enough research and installations like fueling stations to decide whether the technology is commercially viable until 2015. Details of the initiatives were laid out in the 2004 budget, which was released yesterday and included $273 million for research into hydrogen fuel cells, as well as in material from the Energy Department. The proposals include research on whether nuclear and coal power could be used to create hydrogen, a strategy that environmental groups say would undermine the benefits of hydrogen cars. But more money would go to renewable energy. Fuel cells generate electricity through a chemical reaction of hydrogen and oxygen, and many automakers see the technology as an eventual replacement for the internal combustion engine. Cars that run on fuel cells would have water vapor as the sole tailpipe emission. The overall emissions would be dictated by how the hydrogen was produced. President Bush will offer further details of the plan on Thursday in a speech at the National Building Museum in Washington. Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham will give a speech here on Friday on the policy. The administration plans to spend $1.7 billion over five years on two projects, the FreedomCar, to explore making the technology work in cars, and FreedomFuel, which will study how to produce, store and deliver hydrogen. The military is also researching fuel cells. Among the goals would be a demonstration fleet of fuel cell vehicles. Last year, Toyota and Honda set up such fleets in California. Next year, $19.6 million would be spent on possibly using onboard re-formers to strip hydrogen from gasoline and $28 million would go to research cheaper and more efficient fuel cells. Money would be earmarked to research internal combustion engines fueled by hydrogen instead of gasoline, a technology that BMW and Ford have explored. The administration has tried to court environmental groups by briefing them about its initiatives, but the groups are increasingly skeptical. They need another zero on the end of their figures if they are serious about realizing the promise of fuel cell vehicles, said David Friedman, a senior expert at the Union of Concerned Scientists. The 2020 production target would send effects of the program far into the future, Mr. Friedman said. The average lifetime for a car is 15 years, he added. So that's 30 years before this program will significantly effect our oil dependence. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Hakan you cannot be serious.
Dear Hakan Any real petrol head with reasonable long term international knowledge of automotive or motorcycle history can tell you your statement that ... The good thing is that the advanced vehicle technologies...are not based in US any longer. ...is not true. Apologies to those from the USA, but they never were based in the USA. Almost every advancement in vehicle, engine, suspension or braking design (car or motorcycle) came from Europe or England up until the 80's,and now it also comes from Japan. OK you might say that the US invented car mass production, but even that is arguable. Lets look at the cars produced... If you disagree Hakan, tell me one major advancement in vehicle design that originally came from the USA. I doubt you can tell me one, but for every one you can I can tell you 10 that came out of Japan, Italy, Germany, and the UK. In USA vehicle product terms just look at your supposed flagships. In car terms the Cadillac. In motorcycle terms Harley Davidson. Enough said? Its arguable that over the last 50 years the USA car and motorcycle industry has progressed less in creative design and innovation terms than any other major developed country anywhere in the world. Compare todays Cadillac to todays Lexus. Compare todays Harley to a MV Augusta or Honda. You are dreaming Hakan. Lets look at racing. (The supposed birthplace of creativity and advancement) Are USA based car designs doing well, (or have they ever done well), in world GP, world touring cars, or WRC? No, they are unheard of. The only place USA has notoriety in world car racing terms is drag racing. Big V8 engine, big deal! Are USA based motorcycle designs doing well in world MotoGP, Superbikes / SBK, MotoCross, Supercross or anything else. A big no, they are unheard of, and always have been. The only racing where US manufactured vehicles race successfully is on US soil, and thats because much of the US racing scene in the US is set up for locally produced stuff, and excludes outsider vehicles in the rules. This is because the corporations have the $. GM and Ford have pulled the same trick here in Australia. We have supercar racing here, yet only two kinds of cars are allowed to enter. One type of GM car, and one type of Ford car. With that kind of corporate auto-homophobia its no wonder the US car manufacturers find it difficult to be creative. US corporations have a lot of responsibility in this lack of creativity. But from their point of view, why be creative when you can just simply control the market and its progress? Experimental Cars As anyone reading the sites associted with this subject would know its all mainly happening in Europe and Japan. I suppose this is because they have environmental constraints, and fuel costs that would horrify US residents. Necessity is the mother of invention. By comparison US residents are still driving SUV's with tax breaks, enough said. Sorry Hakan, stop believing the US media juggernaut, its simply not true. Francis Williams in Australia - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 4 February 2003 4:48 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Is Big Energy Hijacking Hydrogen? Yes, they hijacked a technology that will work with fossil fuel and that does not lead to any sustainable future if you do not gamble on some revolutionary developments. This with technologies that have been researched for 80 years now, without such breakthroughs. The depletion problem remains for future generations to deal with and it is a steal by current generations. It does give an extension, but only with utilization of coal. Oil, gas and nuclear does not give more than a couple of decades of relief. They can already see that the NG bet is going wrong and depletion is rapidly catching up. The hydrogen route is especially interesting for US with its large reserves of coal. Utilization of the coal reserves will not be done without a continuation of pollution and we can now see why US have this fierce opposition to the Kyoto agreement. The pieces start to fall in place. For developing countries it give practically nothing and if they do not go the biofuel-solar-wind route, they will be forever in the poverty trap. I expect therefore that we will see a division here and the industrial countries might loose their bet. Especially since the energy industry do not want to give way on the current high consumption and put in place some logical measurements against unnecessary waste of energy. I do see a kind of desperation in this and it will be very difficult to maintain a global position for the developed countries with this solutions. Maybe we are seeing the beginning of the traditional fall of empires here. It will be very difficult to get EU, Brazil and others to go for one sided bets like this. Personally I do not mind if US are taking this route, as long as they do not try to export it by force. What
Re: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie
hello Rui, batch processes of all kinds work very very well. Unless you're about to jump right into massive scale commercial production, you don't need to worry about continuous process in order to efficiently make good biodiesel. there are hundreds of ways to build a biodiesel processor for that simple batch process, so you might find a lot of differing info about the equipment- but these are also hundreds of ways to do it efficiently- many, many people worldwide do it with a batch system with no complaints about inefficiency. Considering the economics of it, batch processes using extremely cheap (my last processor cost $50 to build) work fine (as to the economics= compared to buying petrodiesel- I'm spending about 50 cents a gallon on ingredients and power, and the labor time per gallon isn't bad either) I'm sure someone else will post more here about the supercritical methanol method- but those pressures are nothing to take lightly... as I'm sure you're aware. I've also seen lots of people make promises on the web about continuous process- but they do tend to be short on details. It seems like a good way for a successful inventor to patent and market a processor or plant design, so I feel like they're not so forthcoming and sharing with details as those of us whose process revolves around a free 55-gallon drum and a proven, simple batch process. I mean, no one's going to get a patent on the common 'barrel processor' so you might have alot more luck finding info on those designs. And they work fine for making your own fuel. there are of course lots of ways to make a backyard batch process more 'hands-off'- timers, thermostat, etc- and it's not very expensive to do and not all that complicated. Look at Dale Scroggins' touchless processor at the journeytoforever.org website- it's a great design yet not a complicated technology, given enough scavenging to find the components cheaply. Even without getting into using vacuum like he did, you can do a lot of automating with just some investment in timers. My advice is to spend some time learning your way around the process on a small scale, batch process, using the simplest safe equipment you can make, and to then decide on more complicated equipment and processors once you've had some time to get familiar with it all and have gone over the learning curve and have figured out the unique parameters of your site and your needs. Fortunately it's very cheap to get started in biodiesel before you decide on any other equipment to experiment with. mark At 10:16 PM 2/4/2003 -0800, you wrote: Hi, I am a gearhead first and foremost. A friend of mine has a VW Jetta diesel (TDI) and he introduced me to Biodiesel. I do not currently own a diesel vehicle but I am looking to convert my Toyota LandCruiser to diesel, plus I want to look at the potential of using a biofuel for heating oil. I found the idea of using WVO very attractive. It seems to me from what I am reading (please correct me if I am wrong) that the key for producing biodiesel is having an effective continuous process right? I have looked at all kinds of websites that talk about having developed some kind of continuous process, but I have not found any real info. Any suggestions? The only really interesting info that I found was at http://www.biodieselgear.com/documentation/http://www.biodieselgear.com/documentation/ where there is document (Methanol Super Critical Transesterification Method) where it is dicussed that under the right circumstances you can produce biodiesel without acid or base, and in 4 minutes. This type of process seems to be more inline with the requirements of a continuous process. The drawback is the required pressure of 35 MPa (~5600 psi) and temperature of 350C. At first it looked like this was out of reach of a garage project, but maybe with some careful planning... Has anyone looked at the pressures produced by direct injection fuel pumps? The Dodge/Cummins direct injection pump puts out 24000 psi... Hmmm By the way I live in the Boston area and would love to look at how Biodiesel is actually produced. Anyone live close by that has a running setup for processing biodiesel that would be willing to share/show how biodiesel is actualy produced.. Thanks, -Rui = - Rui Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston - USA - __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.comhttp://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Has anyone looked at the pressures produced by direct injection fuel pumps? The Dodge/Cummins direct injection pump puts out 24000 psi... Hmmm by the way , those kinds of pressures are very dangerous for reasons beyond just the capacity of the container/component design. I know someone who worked on ships- and had a story about a fuel system that had a fuel leak on the high-pressure end of the fuel system. They knew it was there but couldn't see the exact location of the leak, and they had the good sense to test for it by running a broom along the suspected area of the fuel lines- looking for the moment when the broom bristles would start to shear off from the pressure. Apparently it was well known that if you were to be careless in this situation, and would have stuck your hands or body in the path of the high-pressure leak, you'd have been likely to lose some fingers (or ears, or whatever) cut off by the high pressure stream of diesel coming from the pinprick hole in the system. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Hi Rui Hi, I am a gearhead first and foremost. A friend of mine has a VW Jetta diesel (TDI) and he introduced me to Biodiesel. I do not currently own a diesel vehicle but I am looking to convert my Toyota LandCruiser to diesel, plus I want to look at the potential of using a biofuel for heating oil. I found the idea of using WVO very attractive. It seems to me from what I am reading (please correct me if I am wrong) that the key for producing biodiesel is having an effective continuous process right? No, not right, as Mark has explained, and as thousands of people all over the place can confirm. I have looked at all kinds of websites that talk about having developed some kind of continuous process, but I have not found any real info. Any suggestions? The only really interesting info that I found was at http://www.biodieselgear.com/documentation/ where there is document (Methanol Super Critical Transesterification Method) where it is dicussed that under the right circumstances you can produce biodiesel without acid or base, and in 4 minutes. This type of process seems to be more inline with the requirements of a continuous process. The drawback is the required pressure of 35 MPa (~5600 psi) and temperature of 350C. At first it looked like this was out of reach of a garage project, but maybe with some careful planning... It's been discussed here a few times, it comes up every now and then. Hey, I might as well update the archives again... here you go: Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 01:38:59 +0900 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [biofuel] New BioD Method Hi Ken Keith writes: .Personally (actually not just me, rather wide reservations have been expressed) I'm not very keen on the idea of sodium methoxide at 350 deg C at a pressure of 30 MPa (296.077 atmo- spheres, 2.176 tons/square inch). Not exactly something for the kitchen. The ONE nice thing about this method is you don't need to use sodium methoxide (or any other catalyst). The unusual conditions at supercritical state cause the reaction to proceed quickly with just alcohol and oil (plus a solvent in some versions). Still need big excess of alcohol to drive the equilibrium -- even more than we do because the glycerine doesn't drop out. The safety thing is still a concern, certainly in ones garage, just because of the high T and P. Yes, that is a nice thing, but supercritical methanol is a nightmare. A while back I approached a contact for an expert opinion, after folks started messing with hydraulics gear and saying stuff like this: I hold no concern for a properly designed reaction vessel under the needed pressure which on review is around 345 atmospheres / 35MPa / 5080 PSI. at 350 to 400C. Hydraulic excavators, presses and such machinery often operate at twice these pressures and occasionally (but not by design) at these temperatures. There is little danger in this, and no problem obtaining off the shelf pumps etc to achieve these pressures at any volume. The person I asked for an opinion is a Chartered Engineer and a full Member of the Institution of Electrical Engineers, and a chemist. He worked for 24 years as a Royal Air Force engineer, including 12 years spent vetting modifications and designs to aviation equipment. He was also on five Boards of Enquiry into accidents. This was his reply: Saka seems to have done some very good, safe industrial research, but this is a quest for a simple, safe, kitchen-sink method of winning the annual Darwin Award. What they propose, and how they suggest it might be achieved, is bordering on fantasy in a home environment. Even a small amount exploding would result in horrendous damage, and supercritical fluids are notoriously fickle. This is a project that would be approached with extreme caution even in an industrial environment. My personal view is that debating such a process on an amateur forum is utterly irresponsible as it glosses over the very real dangers involved. Were they to be held accountable for all the accidents that would undoubtedly result from keen but ignorant amateurs being led to believe that it is a simple matter they can try at home, then perhaps we might see a little more caution. I just wish it were possible to take these people to an ordinance factory where controlled explosions are carried out under the control of experts so that they could see for themselves just how dangerous the whole exercise is. Those that have had no experience of explosions just have no notion of how incredibly fickle and unpredictable matter is when placed under such duress. Those who have had no experience in such matters invariably underestimate the protection required, and have no idea of how metals behave when subjected to supersonic shock. Instant crystallisation and shattering of even ductile metals is not uncommon. What you have just told me turns my blood cold. As a professional engineer I MUST
Re: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Rui, Continuous process is not all that proponents crack it up to be. You can make every bit as good a product and in some instances better with the batch system, ranging from gallon jugs to 3,000 gallon reactors. Or you could fire up your multi-million dollar hp reactor and keep an engineer and machinist on staff full time to minimize the possibility of catastrophic failure. Doubtful that your pocketbook or your consumption level would warrant that. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Rui Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:16 AM Subject: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie Hi, I am a gearhead first and foremost. A friend of mine has a VW Jetta diesel (TDI) and he introduced me to Biodiesel. I do not currently own a diesel vehicle but I am looking to convert my Toyota LandCruiser to diesel, plus I want to look at the potential of using a biofuel for heating oil. I found the idea of using WVO very attractive. It seems to me from what I am reading (please correct me if I am wrong) that the key for producing biodiesel is having an effective continuous process right? I have looked at all kinds of websites that talk about having developed some kind of continuous process, but I have not found any real info. Any suggestions? The only really interesting info that I found was at http://www.biodieselgear.com/documentation/ where there is document (Methanol Super Critical Transesterification Method) where it is dicussed that under the right circumstances you can produce biodiesel without acid or base, and in 4 minutes. This type of process seems to be more inline with the requirements of a continuous process. The drawback is the required pressure of 35 MPa (~5600 psi) and temperature of 350C. At first it looked like this was out of reach of a garage project, but maybe with some careful planning... Has anyone looked at the pressures produced by direct injection fuel pumps? The Dodge/Cummins direct injection pump puts out 24000 psi... Hmmm By the way I live in the Boston area and would love to look at how Biodiesel is actually produced. Anyone live close by that has a running setup for processing biodiesel that would be willing to share/show how biodiesel is actualy produced.. Thanks, -Rui = - Rui Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston - USA - __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Methanol CA?
Can anyone point me to a source for Methanol in sunny California??? Thanks, Ken Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie
There is an out of print book Novel Drilling Technoques that in the second edition talks about cutting sandstone at several meters per second with liquid pressures of that magnitude. Granite I think was 7cm per second if memory serves. Obscure technology. Anyway, you can lose a lot more than just soft tissue. Even a couple hundred psi can inject you like a hypodermic needle. Probably wouldn't be a good thing to happen. Kirk -Original Message- From: girl mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:00 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie Has anyone looked at the pressures produced by direct injection fuel pumps? The Dodge/Cummins direct injection pump puts out 24000 psi... Hmmm by the way , those kinds of pressures are very dangerous for reasons beyond just the capacity of the container/component design. I know someone who worked on ships- and had a story about a fuel system that had a fuel leak on the high-pressure end of the fuel system. They knew it was there but couldn't see the exact location of the leak, and they had the good sense to test for it by running a broom along the suspected area of the fuel lines- looking for the moment when the broom bristles would start to shear off from the pressure. Apparently it was well known that if you were to be careless in this situation, and would have stuck your hands or body in the path of the high-pressure leak, you'd have been likely to lose some fingers (or ears, or whatever) cut off by the high pressure stream of diesel coming from the pinprick hole in the system. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Hi Kirk There is an out of print book Novel Drilling Technoques that in the second edition talks about cutting sandstone at several meters per second with liquid pressures of that magnitude. Granite I think was 7cm per second if memory serves. Obscure technology. Anyway, you can lose a lot more than just soft tissue. Even a couple hundred psi can inject you like a hypodermic needle. Probably wouldn't be a good thing to happen. Probably not very good, no. Then add the not very friendly nature of supercritical methanol at 350 deg C (BP 65 deg C). NIMBY thankyou. I wonder why Philip Hill has put that thing on his website. He's aiming at small-scale folks after all, it's no use to them - well, it might be, but anyone capable of making something of it in a safe and responsible manner sure isn't going to be buying any plastic biod processors from Philip Hill. Whereas there's a good chance someone who isn't capable might be tempted to blow his head off. DIY biodiesel has been remarkably accident-free so far, I think it's maybe worth a bit of vigilance and foresight to help keep it that way, short of being a squeaky-kleen nanny. Biofuels has many powerful enemies, who'd no doubt be most delighted if we started killing ourselves (and others), they'd kick us with it for years to come. Best Keith Kirk -Original Message- From: girl mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:00 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie Has anyone looked at the pressures produced by direct injection fuel pumps? The Dodge/Cummins direct injection pump puts out 24000 psi... Hmmm by the way , those kinds of pressures are very dangerous for reasons beyond just the capacity of the container/component design. I know someone who worked on ships- and had a story about a fuel system that had a fuel leak on the high-pressure end of the fuel system. They knew it was there but couldn't see the exact location of the leak, and they had the good sense to test for it by running a broom along the suspected area of the fuel lines- looking for the moment when the broom bristles would start to shear off from the pressure. Apparently it was well known that if you were to be careless in this situation, and would have stuck your hands or body in the path of the high-pressure leak, you'd have been likely to lose some fingers (or ears, or whatever) cut off by the high pressure stream of diesel coming from the pinprick hole in the system. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Methanol CA?
Ken, Anywhere in particular in CA? How much Methanol are you looking for? I'm in San Diego, I buy 5-35gal quantities from VP Racing fuels through local performance shops. I wish I had the room to work with larger amounts, I'd buy in bulk direct from VP in LA, it's much cheaper. There's a group in Northern CA (burnveggies, I think) that was trying to put together a bulk buy of ethanol, seemed like a really good deal. Let me know what you find. Thanks, Ed Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Methanol CA?
well that depends on where you are in california. look in the phone book under racing (or automotive-racing and performance, amazing how many people miss that one when they look at racetracks and only find the horse racing variety!). ask at your local hot rod shops or race engine builders. Look under (wholesale) gasoline or fuel or gas headings also. One brand of methanol we were finding was VP I believe, in sacramento somewhere. My current supplier in the SF area is ERC in San Lorenzo (510) 276 9334- it's a racing fuels distributor and you have the advantage of getting small amounts- noo need to own a drum of the stuff if you live near a place like this- you just bring them a gas can (5 gal minimum order I believe) and it costs about 2.40 a gallon (price goes down with 16 gallon and bigger quantities). If you are experimenting on a liter scale and have a hard time finding methanol in small quantities, one form of Drygas-style gasonline line antifreeze from an auto parts store is methanol- I think it's the Heet brand, and you have to check that whatever it is isn't isopropyl alcohol instead (like Iso-Heet or others)... good luck, mark At 08:46 AM 2/5/2003 -0800, you wrote: Can anyone point me to a source for Methanol in sunny California??? Thanks, Ken Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
ethical ethanol was RE: [biofuel] Methanol CA?
the ethanol bulk buy is Ken Provost's project (listmember here as well as at the Burnveggies list...). It's an interesting one but be aware that ethanol is not super useful for complete beginners- ethanol is much harder to work predictably with than methanol. I was able to get 100% ethanol from one of my race fuel places by special order, in an expensive small quantity, and it is good for experimenting with, without having a drum of ethanol that I won't regularly use sitting around either... anyway the point being that small quantities of ethanol aren't all that hard to come by when you want to experiment, usually denatured,sometimes with methanol, which is useful in this situation. the ethanol supplier that Ken Provost wanted to bulk-buy from is in your L.A. neck of the woods , though- they are a sort of recycler- they make fuel ethanol out of old distressed juice and out of date medicine and other industrial waste. Yeah! Ken (Ken Provost that is), do you wanna elaborate on that and give the name of the company (I've erased it)? It's certainly interesting stuff for any alcohol fuels spark-ignition engine people down there... mark At 10:33 AM 2/5/2003 -0800, you wrote: Ken, Anywhere in particular in CA? How much Methanol are you looking for? I'm in San Diego, I buy 5-35gal quantities from VP Racing fuels through local performance shops. I wish I had the room to work with larger amounts, I'd buy in bulk direct from VP in LA, it's much cheaper. There's a group in Northern CA (burnveggies, I think) that was trying to put together a bulk buy of ethanol, seemed like a really good deal. Let me know what you find. Thanks, Ed Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: ethical ethanol was RE: [biofuel] Methanol CA?
On Wednesday, February 5, 2003, at 11:19 AM, girl mark wrote: the ethanol bulk buy is Ken Provost's project (listmember here as well as at the Burnveggies list...). It's an interesting one but be aware that ethanol is not super useful for complete beginners- ethanol is much harder to work predictably with than methanol. the ethanol supplier that Ken Provost wanted to bulk-buy from is in your L.A. neck of the woods , though- they are a sort of recycler- they make fuel ethanol out of old distressed juice and out of date medicine and other industrial waste. Yeah! Ken (Ken Provost that is), do you wanna elaborate on that and give the name of the company (I've erased it)? Arrggghh! I think everyone else must've also -- I guess I'll just have to go down there by myself (but I'll only be able to bring back one or two drums, and I WON'T SHARE! :-) Anyway, it's Parallel Products in Rancho Cucamonga -- great folks, but I've started worrying about that one gallon of gasoline in every 50 gal. of ethanol (that's their denaturant -- it's called fuel-grade ethanol, and it's what everyone else uses too for that grade). Especially if I sewer or compost my glycerine before recovering alcohol -- I know a goodly portion of the gasoline stays with the ethanol.. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Biofuels has many powerful enemies, who'd no doubt be most delighted if we started killing ourselves (and others), they'd kick us with it for years to come. ++ If biofuel becomes a big enough threat I am sure they will arrange some demonstrations to encourage laws to outlaw home production. They use the law to control competition. Kirk -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:01 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie Hi Kirk There is an out of print book Novel Drilling Technoques that in the second edition talks about cutting sandstone at several meters per second with liquid pressures of that magnitude. Granite I think was 7cm per second if memory serves. Obscure technology. Anyway, you can lose a lot more than just soft tissue. Even a couple hundred psi can inject you like a hypodermic needle. Probably wouldn't be a good thing to happen. Probably not very good, no. Then add the not very friendly nature of supercritical methanol at 350 deg C (BP 65 deg C). NIMBY thankyou. I wonder why Philip Hill has put that thing on his website. He's aiming at small-scale folks after all, it's no use to them - well, it might be, but anyone capable of making something of it in a safe and responsible manner sure isn't going to be buying any plastic biod processors from Philip Hill. Whereas there's a good chance someone who isn't capable might be tempted to blow his head off. DIY biodiesel has been remarkably accident-free so far, I think it's maybe worth a bit of vigilance and foresight to help keep it that way, short of being a squeaky-kleen nanny. Biofuels has many powerful enemies, who'd no doubt be most delighted if we started killing ourselves (and others), they'd kick us with it for years to come. Best Keith Kirk -Original Message- From: girl mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:00 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie Has anyone looked at the pressures produced by direct injection fuel pumps? The Dodge/Cummins direct injection pump puts out 24000 psi... Hmmm by the way , those kinds of pressures are very dangerous for reasons beyond just the capacity of the container/component design. I know someone who worked on ships- and had a story about a fuel system that had a fuel leak on the high-pressure end of the fuel system. They knew it was there but couldn't see the exact location of the leak, and they had the good sense to test for it by running a broom along the suspected area of the fuel lines- looking for the moment when the broom bristles would start to shear off from the pressure. Apparently it was well known that if you were to be careless in this situation, and would have stuck your hands or body in the path of the high-pressure leak, you'd have been likely to lose some fingers (or ears, or whatever) cut off by the high pressure stream of diesel coming from the pinprick hole in the system. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 1/27/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] OT: Columbia Space Shuttle Lost
A NASA spokesperson was asked about that in an interview, and said that since Columbia was not on a mission to dock with the Space Station, it had been launched without the hardware necessary to make such a connection. He also openly speculated that that would not happen again! Lisa Message: 10 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 22:22:54 +0300 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: OT: Columbia Space Shuttle Lost If they had determined in space that the Shuttle was not safe to return to earth the move would have been to send them to the Intl. Space Station where they could have docked and just sat it out until we could send a different shuttle to get most of them and if there were still two left up there in the Intl. Space Station they could be brought back in one of the Russian ships as they have three seats and can be flown by one person. They may also have been able to stay until the second shuttle arrival if that was determined to be the better solution. Keeping in mind that if the Columbia had been determined to be unsafe in space we may not have felt that it was required to ground the fleet until we have clear answers as to what the cause is and we would know the problem and cause from the information that was developed to determine that they should not try the reentry in it. Best regards, Vern Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Newbie - thanks for feedback
Hi, Thanks, for the feedback. My goal in getting into working with biodiesel is to produce enough for myself as well as potentially selling it on a small scale. Continous processing looked very attractive because I would not have to store all that much product at any one time. I am not quite ready to give up on the idea yet, I was just wondering if there are any other serious papers or info on the web regarding the processing of wvo into biodiesel using methods other than the acid/based methanol... Please do not in anyway take this to mean that I am being arrogant and assuming that I can do better than anyone here, I just like to have as much information as possible. I will probably end up making the same decision as others in this list have made, but it would not be like me to just accept the generaly accepted practice. If that was the case I would not be looking at biodiesel or any alternative energy for that matter.. I agree that supercritical methanol is dangerous, but I think we should be clear that the 24000+ psi injector pump on every volkswagen TDI or any direct injection engine is not a dangeours thing. If a fuel line on a diesel brakes/leaks you do not get the type of high pressure stream like the ones used for cutting stone. Just because you have pressure does not mean that you have flow and without flow even pressures in the area of 100 KPsi are not dangerous when we are talking about uncompressable fluids. The problems would arise from the supercritical methanol, when exposed to the atmosphere at such a high temp it would expand very rapidly and potentially explode. Thanks, -Rui PS: Water cutting is not considered an obscure technology as it is widely used in precision cutting of hard materials. --- kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Biofuels has many powerful enemies, who'd no doubt be most delighted if we started killing ourselves (and others), they'd kick us with it for years to come. ++ If biofuel becomes a big enough threat I am sure they will arrange some demonstrations to encourage laws to outlaw home production. They use the law to control competition. Kirk -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:01 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Introduction and some questions - Newbie Hi Kirk There is an out of print book Novel Drilling Technoques that in the second edition talks about cutting sandstone at several meters per second with liquid pressures of that magnitude. Granite I think was 7cm per second if memory serves. Obscure technology. Anyway, you can lose a lot more than just soft tissue. Even a couple hundred psi can inject you like a hypodermic needle. Probably wouldn't be a good thing to happen. Probably not very good, no. Then add the not very friendly nature of supercritical methanol at 350 deg C (BP 65 deg C). NIMBY thankyou. I wonder why Philip Hill has put that thing on his website. He's aiming at small-scale folks after all, it's no use to them - well, it might be, but anyone capable of making something of it in a safe and responsible manner sure isn't going to be buying any plastic biod processors from Philip Hill. Whereas there's a good chance someone who isn't capable might be tempted to blow his head off. DIY biodiesel has been remarkably accident-free so far, I think it's maybe worth a bit of vigilance and foresight to help keep it that way, short of being a squeaky-kleen nanny. Biofuels has many powerful enemies, who'd no doubt be most delighted if we started killing ourselves (and others), they'd kick us with it for years to come. Best Keith = - Rui Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston - USA - __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] palm source
Speaking of this is there a ranking on the easiness of collecting the crop? jatropha sounds nice for arid areas, and looks highly productive, but can you get to the oil source easily? I don't want to spend 10 times as much time collecting the 'fruit of the labor' Atleast coconuts are easy to locate..heh How about actually extracting the oil. I assume that some have to be better than others? And the cake left over, some would have useful by products that others would not have. ie: $$ from your waste. Even if you can give it away, atleast you aren't paying to throw it away, or worse, polluting by dumping it somewhere. biodegradable has its limits..dump enough apple juice in a creek and you will have harmful effects. Message: 7 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:52:10 -0800 From: Myles Twete [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: palm source David- And the numbers in such tables can be widely disparate. For example, Euphorbia Lathyris, in Tickell (see http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/biodiesel.html ) is rated as the 2nd highest non-tree plant source of oil at 1119kg-oil/hectare, while at journeytoforever it is only rated at 440kg-oil/hectare (below pumpkinseed) and in fact 11% higher yield than rapeseed. Meanwhile, Oil Palm at 5000kg oil/hectare is rated in both places as the highest yielding tree. So for trees, the answer's clear: oil palm. For bushes, castor bean. For smaller plants, it's hard to tell---I contend it's euphorbia lathyris (gopher plant), but that may still be a matter of disputemeanwhile it grows better than anything else in our yard and nearly all year round here in Portland, Oregon---very wild, free and productiveI just don't know a cheap easy way to get oil from it safely (elements of the plant are considered toxic or cancerous). -Myles Twete, Portland Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Methanol CA?
Thanks for the help! I live in the foothills Nevada City to be exact. Hope to get my Ford F250 runnin on bio-diesel soon. Ken - Original Message - From: girl mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Methanol CA? well that depends on where you are in california. look in the phone book under racing (or automotive-racing and performance, amazing how many people miss that one when they look at racetracks and only find the horse racing variety!). ask at your local hot rod shops or race engine builders. Look under (wholesale) gasoline or fuel or gas headings also. One brand of methanol we were finding was VP I believe, in sacramento somewhere. My current supplier in the SF area is ERC in San Lorenzo (510) 276 9334- it's a racing fuels distributor and you have the advantage of getting small amounts- noo need to own a drum of the stuff if you live near a place like this- you just bring them a gas can (5 gal minimum order I believe) and it costs about 2.40 a gallon (price goes down with 16 gallon and bigger quantities). If you are experimenting on a liter scale and have a hard time finding methanol in small quantities, one form of Drygas-style gasonline line antifreeze from an auto parts store is methanol- I think it's the Heet brand, and you have to check that whatever it is isn't isopropyl alcohol instead (like Iso-Heet or others)... good luck, mark At 08:46 AM 2/5/2003 -0800, you wrote: Can anyone point me to a source for Methanol in sunny California??? Thanks, Ken Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofu el.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel]OT: Columbia Space Shuttle Lost
I believe that they dont take a bunch of extra fuel around just in case they need to get to any object in the earths orbit. Its not like they can just fill up at a station along the way. although this is interesting, they could leave refueling items at various places in orbit, should this need to happen. I don't know about how long items can stay there like that, or if that is really safe though.. a bunch of things waiting to go off like that They are at different altitudes and different locations. If they arent going to take a jet pack for emergencies because of the extra fuel involved, I don't think they will bring along a large amount of extra fuel, just in case. Also, they had already been up there quite a while. They take along X amount of Air also.bringing alot of extra costs a lot. just my two cents.. but then again,, I am no rocket scientist. And even then.. this is assuming that they knew there was a real issue. if they *did* i am certain they would have had 'last messages' etc.. just in case they didnt make it. and I dont beleive they can just flop another shuttle up there on a days notice, even if one was not currently being inspected for things, being upgraded..etc. Message: 10 Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 22:22:54 +0300 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: OT: Columbia Space Shuttle Lost If they had determined in space that the Shuttle was not safe to return to earth the move would have been to send them to the Intl. Space Station where they could have docked and just sat it out until we could send a different shuttle to get most of them and if there were still two left up there in the Intl. Space Station they could be brought back in one of the Russian ships as they have three seats and can be flown by one person. They may also have been able to stay until the second shuttle arrival if that was determined to be the better solution. Keeping in mind that if the Columbia had been determined to be unsafe in space we may not have felt that it was required to ground the fleet until we have clear answers as to what the cause is and we would know the problem and cause from the information that was developed to determine that they should not try the reentry in it. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Democracy--Nazi Germany was Democratic!???
I think it would be safe for all of us to agree that it was not Nazi Germany was Democratic but that Nazi Germany came into being in a democratic system? I think you and Thor both have some valid points. I don't, however, agree with you on your comparison to Today's Us president and the fiasco in Florida. Like it or not, it is a republic and thats the way it works. People can cry all they want about how it isn't fair that their guy won by a slim margin, but the rules ...are the rules ...are the rules. It is designed so a knowing few could better make desisions for the whole they represent than a mob of people, many of whom could be easily led and influenced. Its not even fair to say that it was a greater number anyway, since in the margin of 'victory' of the popular vote was even less than required in districts to require a recount. Using a popular number isn't really accurate anyway, as persons from one state where there is a lock for their choice may not even show up to vote. Ie: if their candidate has a 75-25% victory.. some just won't go, since it won't matter. another reason not to report results early A better comparison will be to compare a current state where you are told that if you vote for the opposing party, harm will come to you, or better yet, if you run against the current party, you'd better have your affairs in order. kind of dismantling the opposition. I think we can all think of a few good candidates. ..and last time i checked.. no one was threatened with their lives to vote or not vote in Florida,.. besides.. Bush wasn't even the incumbent. Speaking of history.. I personally think the French haven't learned from theirs... and are about to try to negotiate negotiate negotiate it away. .. but thats just my opinion. I hope you don't think I am attacking any view in any way. thanks Message: 16 Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2003 04:02:13 +0100 From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: Re: Democracy--Nazi Germany was Democratic!??? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] VW to offer 2.0-liter, four-cylinder diesel in Passat this year
VW to offer 2.0-liter, four-cylinder diesel in Passat this year By RALPH KISIEL | Automotive News Volkswagen of America Inc. will offer a diesel engine in its Passat sedan this year. The automaker offers a diesel engine in the Jetta, Golf and New Beetle. VW sold 31,220 diesel-equipped cars in the United States in 2002 - 14.6 percent of the 213,199 combined sales of those three models. The Passat sedan is VW's second best seller in the states, behind the Jetta. Sales of VW's 90-hp diesel engine surged in the first half of 2001 as consumers bought all the diesel-powered Jettas, New Beetles and Golfs in the face of soaring gasoline prices. Sales of VW's turbocharged direct injection (TDI) engine peaked in May 2001, the same month the average price for a gallon of regular gasoline soared to $1.71 in the United States. Dealers said they could have sold twice as many diesel vehicles had they been available. The Passat will be equipped with a 2.0-liter, four-cylinder engine using the latest version of the TDI, generating 134 hp. Jens Neumann, chairman of VW's North American region, said the Passat TDI should be in dealerships late this year. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hydrogen Cars Remain Decades in the Future Under New Budget
Hydrogen Cars Remain Decades in the Future Under New Budget By DANNY HAKIM (NYT) The Bush administration plan to spur development of hydrogen cars does not envision mass production until 2020. ETROIT, Feb. 4 - The Bush administration plan to spur development of hydrogen cars does not envision mass production until 2020. The plan also says there will not be enough research and installations like fueling stations to decide whether the technology is commercially viable until 2015. Details of the initiatives were laid out in the 2004 budget, which was released yesterday and included $273 million for research into hydrogen fuel cells, as well as in material from the Energy Department. The proposals include research on whether nuclear and coal power could be used to create hydrogen, a strategy that environmental groups say would undermine the benefits of hydrogen cars. But more money would go to renewable energy. Fuel cells generate electricity through a chemical reaction of hydrogen and oxygen, and many automakers see the technology as an eventual replacement for the internal combustion engine. Cars that run on fuel cells would have water vapor as the sole tailpipe emission. The overall emissions would be dictated by how the hydrogen was produced. President Bush will offer further details of the plan on Thursday in a speech at the National Building Museum in Washington. Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham will give a speech here on Friday on the policy. The administration plans to spend $1.7 billion over five years on two projects, the FreedomCar, to explore making the technology work in cars, and FreedomFuel, which will study how to produce, store and deliver hydrogen. The military is also researching fuel cells. Among the goals would be a demonstration fleet of fuel cell vehicles. Last year, Toyota and Honda set up such fleets in California. Next year, $19.6 million would be spent on possibly using onboard re-formers to strip hydrogen from gasoline and $28 million would go to research cheaper and more efficient fuel cells. Money would be earmarked to research internal combustion engines fueled by hydrogen instead of gasoline, a technology that BMW and Ford have explored. The administration has tried to court environmental groups by briefing them about its initiatives, but the groups are increasingly skeptical. They need another zero on the end of their figures if they are serious about realizing the promise of fuel cell vehicles, said David Friedman, a senior expert at the Union of Concerned Scientists. The 2020 production target would send effects of the program far into the future, Mr. Friedman said. The average lifetime for a car is 15 years, he added. So that's 30 years before this program will significantly effect our oil dependence. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is an out of print book Novel Drilling Technoques that in the second edition talks about cutting sandstone at several meters per second with liquid pressures of that magnitude. Granite I think was 7cm per second if memory serves. Obscure technology. Anyway, you can lose a lot more than just soft tissue. Even a couple hundred psi can inject you like a hypodermic needle. Probably wouldn't be a good thing to happen. Kirk I did some experimentation last winter for a technology development company, using high pressure water to cut wood. At a lower pressure, the water can be used to easily and cleanly remove the bark,(which contains contaminants) then turn the pressure up to thinly slice the wood, removing water soluble extracts. Non-disclosure agreements won't allow further details. Sorry. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
