date:20051202

So make 5 gallon batches and then put it in your tank.

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

Hmmm.  Remind me never to come to your town, as my truck has an 18.5
gallon fuel tank filled with biodiesel/diesel.  If I parked in your
driveway, It'd be illegal.



On 12/1/05, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

Greg,

Do people heat with fuel oil where you are?  If so, that's not Biodiesel
being stored, it's fuel oil.  They have got to allow tanks of that.
(Assuming people heat with oil where you are.)

Chris K
Cayce, SC


- Original Message -
From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good
enoughprotection?




In an obscure way, I am all ready there.

A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever
suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or
another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ).

I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is
one
of those  No one should do it but the professionals  type of people, and
he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the
people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I
want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some
concern to him ).

It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by
what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5
gal
of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of
kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To
simplify
things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal.

I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm
just taking my time.

Greg H.


- Original Message -
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good
enoughprotection?


  

Hi Keith,

You're probably right.  I just have the fear that someone will
kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll
be seized on by the forces of darkness.  If training were available, or
we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel
Board) and
do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a
real service.  I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and
supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on
legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other
Goverments, and to lobby to counter
the anit-BD and biofuels people.  This group could also provide training
courses and certify trainers.  Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet
drivers.  I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend.

In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have
far more experience and standing than I do.  I guess I'm a Nervous
Nellie sometimes.
I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and
why.  Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from
there.

As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with.  I spent
years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when.
That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves?  Yup.  I
don't brew inside anymore, though.  I finally built a shed for that,
with good ventilation.

Your JTF pages are good.  I wouldn't add much.  I have a punch list I
give to people but you pretty much cover everything.

Thanks,

Mike



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Re: [Biofuel] Your tax dollars at work

2005-12-02 Thread Michael Redler

Wait a minute. If you take Christ out of Christmas, you have "Mas" which we all know means "more" in Spanish.Obviously, this meansMORE topless "elves", video sex toys andparades of naked X-mas characters.It's all clear to me now!MikeMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  See what I mean?Liberal! Liberal!The scary thing is that it works, though. Every time. Let's see...LIBERAL PLAN TO REMOVE THE "CHRIST" FROM CHRISTMAS AND MAKE IT "X-MAS".My fellow American, I have learned today that the Liberals in Congress are secretly plotting to take Jesus, the Christ, out of Christmas and change the holiday's name to X-mas. As we all know, X is simply shorthand for X-rated, and if these godless secular humanist
 liberals aren't stopped, soon the birthday of Christ willbecome a sex-drenched extragaganza. Your children will subjected to topless "elves", video sex toys and a parade of naked X-mas characters. ONLY YOU CAN STOP THIS ATTACK ON JESUS. YOU MUST DONATE TO THE "KEEP THE CHRIST IN CHRISTMAS PAC" SO WE CAN SPREAD THE WORD.EVEN MORE IMPORTANLY, YOU MUST SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL REPUBLICAN IN THE UPCOMING PRIMARIES.God bless,Karl Rove___
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Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming

2005-12-02 Thread Tom Irwin





Hello, Keith,

I suspected that diversity was necessary with the animals if it is necessary for plants and soil. Any particular rotations or combinations work best? Thanks for the benefit of your experience and knowledge. I also applaud your amazing dexerity. Milking compost worms is really difficult. :-

Tom



From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 13:59:13 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farmingQuick question. Can the animals just be earthworms or are rumanants required?Tom IrwinHello TomI spent 20 years trying to get earthworms to stand in for a cow, and failed. And I really hated the milk! Sorry, just kidding... (But I've eaten wormburger, very good!)Well, okay, it would probably take a lot longer than that to prove it, but by that time there wasn't much hope that it could work and a lot of indication that it wouldn't. Scant hope in the first place. I'm afraid earthworms are to be counted on the receiving side, along with all the soil micro-organisms, not among the ruminants, they do a different job. Or a different part of the same job.I don't think it's confined to ruminants though, I reckon grazing should be biodiverse, like the grasses are and the soil bugs. Maybe the more biodiverse it is the fewer ruminants you need in the mix. Also it involves composting as well, and if you're an artful composter it doesn't much matter what kind of manure you use. Lots of variables to juggle with. If you add earthworms at the composting stage, or rather manure worms, you can get a lot more options, but I think that's about as far back in the process as earthworms go.I wish I could find the reference, I've got it somewhere (on paper!), but it seems Europe's main grazing animal is the vole. Voles eat more grass than anything else does. They have to be playing an important overall role but they sure aren't ruminants. I never managed to get hold of any vole dung to experiment with and there's not a lot of literature on the role of the vole and how long the pasture will last yer.BestKeithsnip___
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Re: [Biofuel] Your tax dollars at work

2005-12-02 Thread Fred Finch

Too many 'Mike's' working at a better world!!

fredOn 12/2/05, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Wait a minute. If you take Christ out of Christmas, you have Mas which we all know means more in Spanish.Obviously, this meansMORE topless elves, video sex toys andparades of naked X-mas characters.
It's all clear to me now!MikeMike Weaver 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  See what I mean?
Liberal! Liberal!The scary thing is that it works, though. Every time. Let's see...LIBERAL PLAN TO REMOVE THE CHRIST FROM CHRISTMAS AND MAKE IT X-MAS.My fellow American, I have learned today that the Liberals in Congress 
are secretly plotting to take Jesus, the Christ, out of Christmas and change the holiday's name to X-mas. As we all know, X is simply shorthand for X-rated, and if these godless secular humanist
 liberals aren't stopped, soon the birthday of Christ willbecome a sex-drenched extragaganza. Your children will subjected to topless elves, video sex toys and a parade of naked X-mas characters. 
ONLY YOU CAN STOP THIS ATTACK ON JESUS. YOU MUST DONATE TO THE KEEP THE CHRIST IN CHRISTMAS PAC SO WE CAN SPREAD THE WORD.EVEN MORE IMPORTANLY, YOU MUST SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL REPUBLICAN IN THE 
UPCOMING PRIMARIES.God bless,Karl Rove
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Re: [Biofuel] Your tax dollars at work

The scary thing is, I bet I could clean this up and get people to 
believe it.

Michael Redler wrote:

 Wait a minute. If you take Christ out of Christmas, you have Mas 
 which we all know means more in Spanish.
  
 Obviously, this means MORE topless elves, video sex toys and parades 
 of naked X-mas characters.
  
 It's all clear to me now!
  
 Mike

 */Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 See what I mean?

 Liberal! Liberal!

 The scary thing is that it works, though. Every time. Let's see...

 LIBERAL PLAN TO REMOVE THE CHRIST FROM CHRISTMAS AND MAKE IT
 X-MAS.
 My fellow American, I have learned today that the Liberals in
 Congress
 are secretly plotting to take Jesus, the Christ, out of Christmas and
 change the holiday's name to X-mas. As we all know, X is simply
 shorthand for X-rated, and if these godless secular humanist liberals
 aren't stopped, soon the birthday of Christ will
 become a sex-drenched extragaganza. Your children will subjected to
 topless elves, video sex toys and a parade of naked X-mas
 characters.

 ONLY YOU CAN STOP THIS ATTACK ON JESUS. YOU MUST DONATE TO THE KEEP
 THE CHRIST IN CHRISTMAS PAC SO WE CAN SPREAD THE WORD.

 EVEN MORE IMPORTANLY, YOU MUST SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL REPUBLICAN IN THE
 UPCOMING PRIMARIES.

 God bless,
 Karl Rove



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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

At 50 mpg why bother?

David Miller wrote:

Joe Street wrote:

  

Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed. 
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using 
taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could 
be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?




I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel 
car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of 
trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I 
know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye) 
in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth 
saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the 
tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I 
have the reserve though.

Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money 
in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

--- David

  

Joe

David Miller wrote:



Joe Street wrote:

 

  

Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!
   



Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO, 
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of 
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] Your tax dollars at work

2005-12-02 Thread Fred Finch

I would be willing to bet that you don't need to clean it up for some people to believe it!

You ever watch Faux Snooze?On 12/2/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The scary thing is, I bet I could clean this up and get people tobelieve it.Michael Redler wrote: Wait a minute. If you take Christ out of Christmas, you have Mas which we all know means more in Spanish.
Obviously, this means MORE topless elves, video sex toys and parades of naked X-mas characters. It's all clear to me now! Mike */Mike Weaver
[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: See what I mean? Liberal! Liberal! The scary thing is that it works, though. Every time. Let's see...
LIBERAL PLAN TO REMOVE THE CHRIST FROM CHRISTMAS AND MAKE IT X-MAS. My fellow American, I have learned today that the Liberals in Congress
are secretly plotting to take Jesus, the Christ, out of Christmas and change the holiday's name to X-mas. As we all know, X is simply shorthand for X-rated, and if these godless secular humanist liberals
aren't stopped, soon the birthday of Christ will become a sex-drenched extragaganza. Your children will subjected to topless elves, video sex toys and a parade of naked X-mas
characters. ONLY YOU CAN STOP THIS ATTACK ON JESUS. YOU MUST DONATE TO THE KEEP THE CHRIST IN CHRISTMAS PAC SO WE CAN SPREAD THE WORD. EVEN MORE IMPORTANLY, YOU MUST SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL REPUBLICAN IN THE
UPCOMING PRIMARIES. God bless, Karl Rove___
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?

1.  Where do you live? In most places you can download county regs and 
read them.  *Do this.*
2.  Go to the code enforcement office, or county clerk or whatever.  
Make friends. Be charming.  Find out what the truth is.
3.  Find out who would actually deal with this situation.  Get to know 
him/her.  If he/she is reasonable, talk it over and see what happens.
4.  My neighbors call the county on me pretty much every week.  But, I 
read ALL the regs, I've made a point of knowing who is in charge and 
being very
polite and respectful, and I have the code and documentation right 
there.  So far no problem.5.
5.  I can't over-estimate the part about being polite and respectful. It 
makes the other person look like a crank.

-good luck,

Mike


Greg and April wrote:

In an obscure way, I am all ready there.

A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever
suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or
another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ).

I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is one
of those  No one should do it but the professionals  type of people, and
he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the
people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I
want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some
concern to him ).

It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by
what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5 gal
of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of
kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To simplify
things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal.

I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm
just taking my time.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good
enoughprotection?


  

Hi Keith,

You're probably right.  I just have the fear that someone will
kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll
be seized on by the forces of darkness.  If training were available, or
we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel
Board) and
do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a
real service.  I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and
supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on
legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other
Goverments, and to lobby to counter
the anit-BD and biofuels people.  This group could also provide training
courses and certify trainers.  Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet
drivers.  I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend.

In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have
far more experience and standing than I do.  I guess I'm a Nervous
Nellie sometimes.
I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and
why.  Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from
there.

As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with.  I spent
years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when.
That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves?  Yup.  I
don't brew inside anymore, though.  I finally built a shed for that,
with good ventilation.

Your JTF pages are good.  I wouldn't add much.  I have a punch list I
give to people but you pretty much cover everything.

Thanks,

Mike





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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

2005-12-02 Thread Joe Street





I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
winds of change blow cold on the home brew community? Suppose at some
point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
prevent you from making your own fuel. I know that collectively there
are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around the
planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account for a
huge influence in any particular country or region at this point. I'm
sure any of us who have invested the time, money and effort to be doing
what we are doing will be more than just disappointed if legislation is
enacted in favor of big energy suppliers to the detriment of our
sustainability and environmental ideals. But what can we do though? I
feel I am very fortunate because in my case, since I work at a
university which supports my research into alternative energy
solutions, I can claim I am driving a research vehicle which affords me
quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue is concerned. I am just
wondering if a possible solution to this potential problem might be for
people like myself to create some sort of registry so that I can claim
not only that I drive a research vehicle but that it is part of a
worldwide fleet of such vehicles thereby strengthening not only my case
but also that of everyone else registered on the site as well.
Comments?

Joe




David Miller wrote:

  Joe Street wrote:

  
  
Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed. 
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using 
taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could 
be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?

  
  

I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel 
car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of 
trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I 
know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye) 
in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth 
saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the 
tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I 
have the reserve though.

Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money 
in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

--- David

  
  
Joe

David Miller wrote:



  Joe Street wrote:

 

  
  
Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!
   


  
  
Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO, 
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of 
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming

2005-12-02 Thread Tom Irwin





Hello Dermot,

I suppose a fair test, not a good one, would be how long has the organic trust farms been operating and can they still grow most all crop types with normal yields. If your have farms operating 100 years or so and can still grow most crops with noirmal yields I say you were sustainable. If there are some things you could grow with normal yields and now cannot then something is missing.

Tom Irwin



From: dermot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:11:12 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farmingHi Keith,I'd like to address some of the points you raised in your reply to me on Oct 2nd.Before we start it may be useful to stress the views we probably have in common and hopefully that the rest of the list have in common as well.1. Modern intensive farming is unsustainable and is unnecessarily cruel to a wide variety of animals.2. To combat this cruelty we should boycott the produce of intensively farmed animals thereby forcing farmers to adopt more sustainable and cruelty free methods of farming.3. We should eat only free range meat or dairy produce.If this could be achieved I believe 90% of the suffering that is inflicted on animals would be eradicated.There are a number of points which I disagree with you on, the chief among them being that animal inputs are necessary for sustainable agriculture.I know you don't accept that there is such a thing as sustainable farming without animals but the Vegan Organic Trust in Britain is an organisation that is dedicated to the promotion of stockfree, organic, sustainable farming.They are not some crackpot type of organisation that have vague aspirations about veganism. Their certification process for declaring farms to be truly organic, stockfree and sustainable is carried out by the SOIL ASSOCIATION'S certifying body. As you are no doubt aware the SOIL ASSOCIATION has an international reputation second to none and I have faith in their integrity.There is no way of proving that an agricultural system is sustainable. Sustainable means, by definition, that it can go on forever and it is obviously impossible to test that. All we can say is that one system is more likely to be sustainable than another one. So I don't agree with your claim to have proved that animal farming systems are sustainable. On the other hand, it is possible to prove that a given agricultural system is unsustainable, if you can show that it uses up one or more of the earth's resources faster than they are being replaced. So your claim to have proved that stockless farming is unsustainable could in principle be true, but I trust an organisation such as the SOIL ASSOCIATION when they say it can be sustainable.It is true that mixed farming was the dominant form of agriculture for centuries, if not millennia, but this does not in itself prove that it is sustainable. A number of agricultural practices, such as ploughing, were carried on for a very long time but have now been shown to be unsustainable. It is also possible that a given system could be sustainable at a certain human population size and unsustainable at a greater population.In our last exchange you recommended Sally Fallon's site. www.westonaprice.orgI visited this site as you recommended and was immediately drawn to the "Myths and Truths About Vegetarianism" section.My reaction on reading this was that this site had no credibility. Here's why.A Dr Stephen Byrnes starts off the "myths" by telling us of a story where a woman visits her doctor following a miscarriage:"Upon questioning Tanya about her diet, I quickly saw the cause of her infections, as well as her miscarriage: she had virtually no fat in her diet and was also mostly a vegetarian. Because of the plentiful media rhetoric about the supposed dangers of animal product consumption, as opposed to the alleged health benefits of the vegetarian lifestyle, Tanya had deliberately removed such things as cream, butter, meats and fish from her diet. Although she liked liver, she avoided it due to worries over "toxins."Tanya and Bill left with a bottle of vitamin A, other supplements and a dietary prescription that included plentiful amounts of animal fats and meat. Just before leaving my office, Tanya looked at me and said ruefully: "I just don't know what to believe sometimes. Everywhere I look there is all this low-fat, vegetarian stuff recommended. I followed it, and look what happened." I assured her that if she and her husband changed their diets and allowed sufficient time for her weakened uterus to heal, they would be happy parents in due time. In November 2000, Bill and Tanya happily gave birth to their first child, a girl."So we have a scenario where someone takes up a "mostly" vegetarian diet with no knowledge of what constitutes a proper vegetarian diet and suffers ill health. She is then prescribed a meat diet and hey presto, everything is fine. The clear implication here is that

Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming



Greetings,
While I am not Keith, I have discovered that the rotation depends on what
I need to accomplish. for example: Did I make the mistake of
feeding hay in one place too long when it was wet? Then I need to
pound some rebar holes, fill them with corn and turn the pigs in for a
few days, followed by the chickens to level the ground and to clean up
the weed seeds, so I can replant.
Are parasites a problem? Grazing cows then sheep next on the same
pasture can help.
Micro climate plays a huge role in planning what goes when and
where. Think of it as a giant jig saw puzzle that Mother Nature
occasionally stirs up. You will never be bored.
Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 08:46 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
Hello, Keith,

I suspected that diversity was necessary with the animals if it is
necessary for plants and soil. Any particular rotations or combinations
work best? Thanks for the benefit of your experience and knowledge. I
also applaud your amazing dexerity. Milking compost worms is really
difficult. :-

Tom




From: Keith Addison
[
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 13:59:13 -0300

Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley
farming

Quick question. Can the animals just be earthworms or are
rumanants required?



Tom Irwin

Hello Tom

I spent 20 years trying to get earthworms to stand in for a cow, and


failed. And I really hated the milk! Sorry, just kidding... (But I've


eaten wormburger, very good!)

Well, okay, it would probably take a lot longer than that to prove


it, but by that time there wasn't much hope that it could work and a


lot of indication that it wouldn't. Scant hope in the first place.


I'm afraid earthworms are to be counted on the receiving side, along


with all the soil micro-organisms, not among the ruminants, they do a


different job. Or a different part of the same job.

I don't think it's confined to ruminants though, I reckon grazing


should be biodiverse, like the grasses are and the soil bugs. Maybe


the more biodiverse it is the fewer ruminants you need in the mix.


Also it involves composting as well, and if you're an artful 

composter it doesn't much matter what kind of manure you use. Lots of


variables to juggle with. If you add earthworms at the composting


stage, or rather manure worms, you can get a lot more options, but I


think that's about as far back in the process as earthworms
go.

I wish I could find the reference, I've got it somewhere (on paper!),


but it seems Europe's main grazing animal is the vole. Voles eat more


grass than anything else does. They have to be playing an important


overall role but they sure aren't ruminants. I never managed to get


hold of any vole dung to experiment with and there's not a lot of


literature on the role of the vole and how long the pasture will last


yer.

Best

Keith

snip

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol suppliers

2005-12-02 Thread Chris May

Ah thank you very much, google didnt give me any
results in the past. Ordered me catalogue so hopefully
should get that soon! (dont worry too much about
prices though, over here it would have been £6/gal!)

Looks like im gonna have to start work on that ethanol
distillery sooner rather then later though! 

Cheers again

Chris


--- Robert Carr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Chris,
 what sort of quantities are you looking for? For 25L
 plus, try Performance
 chemicals Ltd. Prices are good but carriage charges
 are very high. For less
 than 25L, you can have some of mine at cost if you
 can collect from
 Peterborough.
 Hope this helps
 Rgds Bob
 - Original Message -
 From: Chris May [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:54 PM
 Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol suppliers
 
 
  Hi everyone, Ive just started attempting to make
 BD
  but after getting some methanol from a local model
  airplane shop, he told me that his supplier has
 told
  him he can no longer get him the stuff since
  apparently the british government have outlawed
  methanol being sold a seperate item so 95% or
 better
  stuff will become impossible to find!
 
  I was just wondering if there is any truth in that
 and
  if any homebrewers local to the east London/Essex
 area
  can let me know any places where I can purchase
 some
  methanol (I am way too novice to start using
 ethenol
  lol)
 
  Cheers for any information!
 
  Chris
 
 
 
 

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

Nah,

when it comes it'll be from two directions:

The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start 
feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that 
declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will 
require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer 
can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get 
the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big 
Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.

Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and 
trumpet it all over the place.

The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and 
set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of 
it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we 
could stand, divided we'll fall.

When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel

Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver

Joe Street wrote:

 I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the 
 winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some 
 point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or 
 prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there 
 are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around 
 the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account 
 for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this 
 point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and 
 effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just 
 disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy 
 suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental 
 ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because 
 in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research 
 into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research 
 vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue 
 is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this 
 potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort 
 of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research 
 vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles 
 thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else 
 registered on the site as well.
 Comments?

 Joe




 David Miller wrote:

Joe Street wrote:

  

Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed. 
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using 
taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could 
be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?




I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel 
car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of 
trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I 
know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye) 
in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth 
saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the 
tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I 
have the reserve though.

Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money 
in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

--- David

  

Joe

David Miller wrote:



Joe Street wrote:

 

  

Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!
   



Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO, 
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of 
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

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[Biofuel] Anatomy of a Political Debate in the US

2005-12-02 Thread Michael Redler

Anatomy of a Political Debate in the USFrom my experience, there are two kinds of of people in the US when it comes to political debate.First, there are (what I like to call) the "conformists", who have fallen victimto (what Ralph Nader calls) a duopoly, preserving an illusion that only two political positions exist and you have to
pick one or declare yourself non-political or otherwise unimportant.The "conformists", consisting of old-school "liberals" and "conservatives", are extremely proud of their labels (because it's all they have) and squawk at each other as if they are debating their favorite baseball team. Most importantly,under no circumstances are you to deviate from the party's position or concede to a good idea from "the other side" even if its the same one.Now here is where it gets interesting. The second kind of person declares no loyalty toany party (of a broken, two party system) and finds him or herself incompatible with anyone but their own kind. So, one consequently sees three kinds of debates1.) "Conformists vs Conformists": Both participants label each other (i.e. "You liberal!","You Neocon!") which in the grand scheme of things, doesn't mean anything to anyone. They also avoid the issues and concentrate on aspects of the person or persons with whomthey are debating (i.e. "you're un-American" or "Have you ever served in the military?").2.) "Conformists vs. Non-conformists":You(an "NC") take a position based on common sense (i.e. "torture is bad") and you are eitherresponded to with a list of qualifications, as if there are prerequisites to having an opinion other than common sense. Perhaps you are then pressured into exempting certain politicians based on their party affiliation or your are presented with the record of another president from "the other
side" with a seemingly worse record (as if you were alluding to a particular presidentbecause of what "side" he's on).3.) "Non-Conformist vs. Non-Conformist"A debate where both opponentsexpress (usually) informed opinions about a particular issue without applying preconceived notions of liberalism, conservatism or any other kind of "ism". They have often AGREED on one or more aspects and (this is really wild!) actually concede that they have the weaker argument due to information learned during the exchange. They've even changed their minds on some stuff!!About two weeks ago, I sent an email to afriend in response to a political comment he made. He had someone else's email address in his"To" box and I included
it in my reply.In my reply, I mentioned some of my concerns about some US government policies, including:1.) Why there are worldwide mass protests against the US gov't. 2.) Why no WMD's were found inIraq and the CIA knew
it. 3.) How the US governmenthas the largest stockpile ofWMD's in the world. 4.) How the US government created ahoaxcalled the"coalition of the willing". 5.) How the US government treats every country as an un-equal. 6.) How Israel isexempt fromNuc.Weap. proliferation treaties due to the threat of a US Veto. 7.) How it reallytook the president five days to get to N.O. after the flood 8.) How there is anepidemic of nepotism in the executive branch (FEMA, Supreme Court, etc.). 9.) How the
US governmentis aclose ally withthe Saudi monarchy- one of the biggest human rights offenders in the world and the homeland of all but one of the 9/11 terrorists. 10.) The US governmenthas a program of proxy torturecalled "extraordinary rendition".The strangerrespondedby LABELing me an idealist
(as if anyone but an idealist has been responsible for change in government) and asked me my qualifications for having such a position. For example:He asked me ifI ever served in the military, as if the military will enhance my objectivity and allow me toform a moreeducated opinion.I'm not against the military. I justdon't know how it will help metake a better position on issues like torture or other, more obvious human rights violations (for example). He asked me a number of other questions about my participation in town councils, if my name shows up in any successful legislative statutes,
if I've built any schools or churches (which would be funny if I were an atheist), etc, etc. As it turns out, I volunteer my time regularly but, what especially came to mind in this exchangewas how many (non-elected) activists inspired change in the US and if he knows about them.Because the debate began losing its value (in my opinion),I decidedto delay my response. Please don't misunderstand me. I admire anyone who has done any of the things he mentioned (running for office, volunteering, etc.). However, I don't see the relevance in this particular situation.I
feelstrongly about looking at ones opinion for what it is, irrespective of that persons credentials and especially if it involves civil discourse in a democratic society.The next time

Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel as a wood stain

Greetings,
The only wood preservative I have found to be worth the trouble is raw 
linseed oil, applied by the old rule of: once a day for a week, once a week 
for a month, once a month for a year, once a year for life.  With this, 
wood will stand up to Texas, sun, termites and all.  If biodiesel can do a 
better job with less applications, I would be a very happy camper.

May I suggest coating a piece of wood and setting it on a termite pile?  To 
me, that would be a good test of it.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 07:53 PM 12/1/2005, you wrote:
Hello all,

I just did some testing of biodiesel as a wood stain.  I used oak as the
base wood and applied a coat of Bio.  The color was as pretty as can be
if you like natural wood with out shadowing enhancements deep in the
pore structure.  It is a deep penetrator as compared to other stains.
The best part is it was dry in equal time and it was coatable with a
high grade polyurethane topcoat.  I think one could add pigments if you
wanted enhanced colors and the solvent based stain pigments will mix
readily with the BD.  Be sure to go to the trouble of washing it out
close to neutral Ph before use as a wood stain.

I do wonder if you were to use ths as a preservative if it wouldn't be
better to actualy leave it as basic as possible?  any thoughts?

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Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming

2005-12-02 Thread Ken Dunn

On 11/30/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Greetings Ken

 That was a real pleasure to read, thankyou.

You're quite welcome.

 Your food shed, that's great! Footprints and food sheds.

I wish I had coined the term but, my best buddy uses the phrase
regularly and I'm pretty sure that he stole it from one or another
writer.

A few months back I stumbled across the article below in the archives.
 Looks like Doug Woodward first posted it.  I found it to be very
interesting and figure that it might be a good time for it to get
another look.  Based solely on this article I really don't see
anything that precludes animal free organic farming from being
sustainable.  It appears to point to both organic farming with and
without animals as being sustainable.  In my opinion, it clearly shows
advantages of organic farming both with or without animals.  But you
all can be the judge of that.

The Institute of Science in Society: Science Society
Sustainability
http://www.i-sis.org.uk

General Enquiries  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Website/Mailing List  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ISIS Director  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

This article can be found on the I-SIS website at
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/OBCA.php



ISIS Press Release 12/09/05

Organic Agriculture Enters Mainstream
**

Organic Yields on Par with Conventional and Ahead During
Drought Years

But by far the greatest gains are due to savings on damages
to public health and the environment estimated at more than
US$59 billion a year Dr. Mae-Wan Ho puts the nail on the
coffin on industrial agriculture

A fully referenced version of this article is posted on ISIS
members' website http://www.i-sis.org.uk/full/OBCAFull.php.
Details here http://www.i-sis.org.uk/membership.php

Myths die hard

Scientists who should know better - if only they had kept up
with the literature - continue to tell the world that
organic agriculture invariably means lower yields,
especially compared to industrial high input agriculture,
even when this has long been proven false (see for example,
Organic agriculture fights back SiS 16 [1];
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis16.php
Organic production works, SiS 25 [2]).
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis25.php




Researchers led by David Pimenthal, ecologist and
agricultural scientist at Cornell University, New York, have
now reviewed data from long-term field investigations and
confirmed that organic yields are no different from
conventional under normal growing conditions, but that they
are far ahead during drought years [3]. The reasons are well
known: organic soils have greater capacity to retain water
as well as nutrients such as nitrogen.

Organic soils are also more efficient carbon sinks, and
organic management saves on fossil fuel, both of which are
important for mitigating global warming.

But by far the greatest gains are in savings on externalised
costs associated with conventional industrial farming, which
are estimated to exceed 25 percent of the total market value
of United States' agricultural output.

Long-term field trials at Rodale Institute

From 1981 through 2002, field investigations were conducted
at Rodale Institute in Kutztown, Pennsylvania on 6.1 ha.
Three different cropping systems: conventional, animal
manure and legume-based organic, and legume-based organic.
Plots (18 x 92 m) were split into three (6 x 92 m) subplots,
which are large enough for farm-scale equipment to be used
for operations and harvesting. The main plots were separated
with a 1.5 m grass strip to minimize cross movement of soil,
fertilizers, and pesticides. Each of the three cropping
systems was replicated eight times.

The conventional system based on synthetic fertilizer and
herbicide use, represented a typical cash-grain 5-year crop
rotation (corn, corn, soybeans, corn, soybeans) that
reflects commercial conventional operations in the region
and throughout the Midwest. According to USDA 2003 data,
there are more than 40 million ha in this production system
in North America. Crop residues were left on the surface of
the land to conserve soil and water; but no cover crops were
used during the non-growing season.

The organic animal-based cropping represented a typical
livestock operation in which grain crops were grown for
animal feed, not cash sale. This rotation was more complex:
corn, soybeans, corn silage, wheat, and red clover-alfalfa
hay, as well as a rye cover crop before corn silage and
soybeans. Aged cattle manure served as the nitrogen source
and applied at 5.6 tonnes per ha (dry), 2 years out of every
5 immediately before ploughing the soil for corn. Additional
nitrogen was supplied by the plough-down of legume-hay
crops. The total nitrogen applied per ha was about 40
kilograms per year or 198 kg per ha for any given year with
a corn crop. Weed control relied on mechanical cultivation,
weed-suppressing crop rotations, and relay cropping, in
which one crop acted as living

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

2005-12-02 Thread Doug Turner

Hi Mike,

Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's bound
to be a cult classic.

Doug

- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

 Nah,

 when it comes it'll be from two directions:

 The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
 feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
 declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
 require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer
 can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
 the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big
 Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.

 Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and
 trumpet it all over the place.

 The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and
 set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
 it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
 could stand, divided we'll fall.

 When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel

 Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver

 Joe Street wrote:

  I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
  winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
  point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
  prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
  are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
  the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
  for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
  point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
  effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
  disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
  suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
  ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
  in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
  into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
  vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
  is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
  potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
  of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
  vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
  thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else
  registered on the site as well.
  Comments?

  Joe

  David Miller wrote:

 Joe Street wrote:

 Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed.
 So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
 taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could
 be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?

 I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel
 car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of
 trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I
 know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye)
 in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth
 saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the
 tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I
 have the reserve though.

 Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money
 in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

 --- David

 Joe

 David Miller wrote:

 Joe Street wrote:

 Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!

 Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO,
 K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of
 saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.

 --- David

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Re: [Biofuel] Your tax dollars at work

2005-12-02 Thread MH

 The end is near,  NO more sex!! 

 Now I lie me down to sleep,
 I pray the Lord my soul to keep,
 If I die before I wake,
 God bless mommy and daddy
 and the rest of our family. 

 Why do the GOP want to sink the ship, because
 some are wanton followers  full of sheep-dip! 

 I know its baaad but its so saaad
 having seen them slide down the hump into a slump. 
 What some may need is to dole out more viagra
 to help build themselves back up. 
 Lets not forget - some like to
 bob around the old maypole
 but thats different. 

 What am I reading, Fox mews ? 


  LIBERAL PLAN TO REMOVE THE CHRIST FROM CHRISTMAS AND MAKE IT X-MAS.
  My fellow American, I have learned today that the Liberals in Congress
  are secretly plotting to take Jesus, the Christ, out of Christmas and
  change the holiday's name to X-mas. As we all know, X is simply
  shorthand for X-rated, and if these godless secular humanist liberals
  aren't stopped, soon the birthday of Christ will
  become a sex-drenched extragaganza. Your children will subjected to
  topless elves, video sex toys and a parade of naked X-mas
  characters.
 
  ONLY YOU CAN STOP THIS ATTACK ON JESUS. YOU MUST DONATE TO THE KEEP
  THE CHRIST IN CHRISTMAS PAC SO WE CAN SPREAD THE WORD.
 
  EVEN MORE IMPORTANLY, YOU MUST SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL REPUBLICAN IN THE
  UPCOMING PRIMARIES.
 
  God bless,
  Karl Rove

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an 
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?

-Mike

Doug Turner wrote:

Hi Mike,

Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's bound
to be a cult classic.

Doug

- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


  

Nah,

when it comes it'll be from two directions:

The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer
can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big
Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.

Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and
trumpet it all over the place.

The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and
set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
could stand, divided we'll fall.

When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel

Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver

Joe Street wrote:



I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else
registered on the site as well.
Comments?

Joe




David Miller wrote:

  

Joe Street wrote:





Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed.
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could
be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?


  

I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel
car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of
trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I
know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye)
in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth
saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the
tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I
have the reserve though.

Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money
in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

--- David





Joe

David Miller wrote:



  

Joe Street wrote:







Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!




  

Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO,
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


--- David

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

2005-12-02 Thread Joe Street





Well after all I've invested into this endeavour the car, the
processor, the time, effort, my domain name, not to mention the pain I
have endured ( every time I read one of Mike's messages it seems my
eyeballs roll further and further back into my head - it hurts) it
seems a forgone conclusion that I would join an advocacy group.

Joe

Mike Weaver wrote:

  All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an 
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?

-Mike

Doug Turner wrote:

  
  
Hi Mike,

   Just waiting for the movie, "Attack of the Grease People."  It's bound
to be a cult classic.

   Doug

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 



  Nah,

when it comes it'll be from two directions:

The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer
can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big
Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.

Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and
trumpet it all over the place.

The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and
set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
could stand, divided we'll fall.

"When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel"

Mike "been living in Washington DC for too long" Weaver

Joe Street wrote:

   

  
  
I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else
registered on the site as well.
Comments?

Joe




David Miller wrote:

 



  Joe Street wrote:



   

  
  
Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed.
So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could
be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?


 


  
  I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel
car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of
trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I
know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye)
in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth
saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the
tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I
have the reserve though.

Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money
in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.

--- David



   

  
  
Joe

David Miller wrote:



 



  Joe Street wrote:





   

  
  
Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!




 


  
  Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO,
K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of
saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.


---

Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

2005-12-02 Thread Thomas Kelly

Mike,
 Are you offering to play a role in organizing such an advocacy group? I 
think there would be great interest.
I would pay to be a member.
 Tom
- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?


 All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
 advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
 would anyone pay to be a member?

 -Mike




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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

2005-12-02 Thread Kurt Nolte

On 12/2/05, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of anadvocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantlywould anyone pay to be a member?

I'd pay. If only to stick it to the man who's trying to pull the strings of the world, IE corporations. 

-Kurt

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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

2005-12-02 Thread David Miller

Mike Weaver wrote:

All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an 
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?
  


I would pay something just to support the cause.  Probably in the 
$50-100 range. 

--- David

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[Biofuel] democracy now: chavez to give the us cheap oil to poor folks

2005-12-02 Thread Kenji James Fuse

Did you all hear today's Democracy Now? Looks like the US is letting
Chavez sell heating oil at a 40% reduction to poor-er folk in Brooklyn and
Boston.

I imagine the petro boys and the corporate world are squirming right now:
this is the first time a major corporation (Citgo?) has VOLUNTARILY taken
a profit cut! This is, in my view, a major accomplishment and may signal
the beginning of the end for corporate-America...

I really hope Chavez is around next year.

KF


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

I'm very serious.  I would be willing to start it - my real business is 
to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I know 
how Capital Hill works.
The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe.
I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, 
what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local 
governments on behalf of BD. users.
I also think classes and training would be a good idea.
Names?  More ideas?

-Mike




Kurt Nolte wrote:

 On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
 advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
 would anyone pay to be a member?



 I'd pay. If only to stick it to the man who's trying to pull the 
 strings of the world, IE corporations.

 -Kurt




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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection?

I'm a residence not a restraunt/business, so the exemtions for 'Other Oils'
don't apply.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 19:38
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves
goodenoughprotection?


 it's only biodiesel if you call it biodiesel. i would call it a
biodegradable degreaser, cooking oil,cleaning fluid ,or  yellow stuff.




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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood enoughprotection?

No.

Near as I can tell, everything is NG with some electric and a few solar.

Greg H

- Original Message - 
From: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 18:59
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood
enoughprotection?

 Greg,

 Do people heat with fuel oil where you are?  If so, that's not Biodiesel
 being stored, it's fuel oil.  They have got to allow tanks of that.
 (Assuming people heat with oil where you are.)

 Chris K
 Cayce, SC

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection?

Furnace is Natural Gas.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 23:43
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves
goodenoughprotection?


 Hey Greg,

 Can't you put your biodiesel in a furnace tank and call it home heating
 oil? That should get around that arcane law.

 Too bad about your neighbour, tho'...

 Kenji Fuse


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

Greetings,
I am trying to understand why you feel the need to have people pay to be a 
member of an advocacy group.  I am a member of several and the membership 
is asked to pay for the postcards we bombard Washington with.  Something as 
simple as a yahoo group that only the management can post messages on, will 
work.  Any time there is a problem, the membership gets out the postage and 
starts to mail the appropriate postcard to the proper people.  What is the 
money for?
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:15 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote:
All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an
advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly
would anyone pay to be a member?

-Mike

Doug Turner wrote:

 Hi Mike,
 
 Just waiting for the movie, Attack of the Grease People.  It's bound
 to be a cult classic.
 
 Doug
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:48 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?
 
 
 
 
 Nah,
 
 when it comes it'll be from two directions:
 
 The trap grease people will get together as soon as they really start
 feeling the bite from home-brewers, and get legislation passed that
 declares WVO dangerous and in need of special handling.  This will
 require fairly expensive equipment and insurance the average home-brewer
 can't afford.  There will be a few high profile lawsuits and we'll get
 the message and give up.  This will probably be aided and abetted by Big
 Oil, who will get in bed with or just buy out the grease people.
 
 Oh, they'll find someone somewhere who has injured himself making BD and
 trumpet it all over the place.
 
 The logical thing to do would be for the homebrewers to organize now and
 set up an organization to counter this.  Everyone will be in favor of
 it, but no one will be willing to part with 50.00 for dues.  United we
 could stand, divided we'll fall.
 
 When Biodiesel is outlawed, only outlaws will make Biodiesel
 
 Mike been living in Washington DC for too long Weaver
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 I'm just wondering what people on this list think they will do if the
 winds of change blow cold on the home brew community?  Suppose at some
 point your government decides to take strong action to discourage or
 prevent you from making your own fuel.  I know that collectively there
 are a lot of us but we are spread pretty thin here and there around
 the planet. Solidarity amongst home brewers I'm sure doesn't account
 for a huge influence in any particular country or region at this
 point.  I'm sure any of us who have invested the time, money and
 effort to be doing what we are doing will be more than just
 disappointed if legislation is enacted in favor of big energy
 suppliers to the detriment of our sustainability and environmental
 ideals. But what can we do though?  I feel I am very fortunate because
 in my case, since I work at a university which supports my research
 into alternative energy solutions, I can claim I am driving a research
 vehicle which affords me quite a bit of latitude as far as this issue
 is concerned.  I am just wondering if a possible solution to this
 potential problem might be for people like myself to create some sort
 of registry so that I can claim not only that I drive a research
 vehicle but that it is part of a worldwide fleet of such vehicles
 thereby strengthening not only my case but also that of everyone else
 registered on the site as well.
 Comments?
 
 Joe
 
 
 
 
 David Miller wrote:
 
 
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 Oh I thought from the previous post it meant that taxed fuel is dyed.
 So then on a spot inspection how is anyone to know if you are using
 taxed fuel or home brew anyways?  (assuming it is not B100 which could
 be identified by smell alone) Why worry about it then?
 
 
 
 
 I doubt if many (bio)diesel car owners worry about it at all.  Diesel
 car owners are such small pickins next to a company running a fleet of
 trucks that I've never seen or even heard of someone being tested.  I
 know a number of them who regularly use heating oil or K1 (with the dye)
 in their cars without concern.   I don't do it because to it's not worth
 saving thirty cents a gallon if it means having to drain it out of the
 tank in 5 gallon buckets and pour it into the car.  It's nice to know I
 have the reserve though.
 
 Biodiesel is attractive for other reasons; I wouldn't save enough money
 in a long time to make it worthwhile financially.
 
 --- David
 
 
 
 
 
 Joe
 
 David Miller wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Why not just add some of the dye yourself ..doh!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Because here in the states they put the dye in the untaxed fuel (HHO,
 K1), not in the stuff that's taxed.  So adding dye would be a way of
 saying that you didn't pay taxes on fuel that you actually had.
 
 
 --- David
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection?

It's one thing if it is a vehicle fuel tank, something else if it is not.


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 22:02
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves
goodenoughprotection?


 Hmmm.  Remind me never to come to your town, as my truck has an 18.5
 gallon fuel tank filled with biodiesel/diesel.  If I parked in your
 driveway, It'd be illegal.





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[Biofuel] off topic

Greetings,
An unusual day, something positive on my email with out a price tag.  Fun 
to look at if nothing else.
Bright Blessings,
Kim
http://www.gogratitude.com/masterkey/



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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enough protection?

2005-12-02 Thread Kenji James Fuse

Thanks to all for the thorough responses to my queries about methanol and
gloves! Y'all rule...

What's your views on my addition of 0.5-2% addition of gasoline to my
veggie oil prior to biodiesel production during cold/damp weather?

It seems to take care of the moisture factor which had me occasionally
making glop soup during damp times. It seems like a small amount to feel
guilty about, and it seems to work consistently.

Kenji Fuse


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?

2005-12-02 Thread Walker Bennett

I would be more than willing to pay and be a member of a group like this. It's not going to be long before the government or Exxon tries to get in on the act and we need to be prepared.Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I'm very serious. I would be willing to start it - my real business is to provide consulting to non-profits - I know how they work and I know how Capital Hill works.The primarly goal is to keep biodiesel-brewing legal and safe.I envision a DC-based non-profit that would keep tabs on legal issues, what big oil and big bd are up to, and lobby federal, state and local governments on behalf of BD. users.I also think classes and training would be a good idea.Names? More ideas?-MikeKurt Nolte wrote: On 12/2/05, *Mike Weaver* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: All kidding aside, do the members of this list think the idea of an advocacy group to defend BD has merit, and more importantly would anyone pay to be a member? I'd pay. If only to "stick it to the man" who's trying to pull the  strings of the world, IE corporations. -Kurt___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Walker  (Ben W. Gardner)___
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood enoughprotection?

2005-12-02 Thread doug

Greg and April wrote:

No.

Near as I can tell, everything is NG with some electric and a few solar.

Greg H
  


I guess you could consider biodiesel as a storage system for solar energy...

doug swanson

- Original Message - 
From: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 18:59
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood
enoughprotection?


  

Greg,

Do people heat with fuel oil where you are?  If so, that's not Biodiesel
being stored, it's fuel oil.  They have got to allow tanks of that.
(Assuming people heat with oil where you are.)

Chris K
Cayce, SC






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Re: [Biofuel] democracy now: chavez to give the us cheap oil to poorfolks

2005-12-02 Thread radema

The top 5 petro boys (3 are HQ'd in USA, he other two are BP amd RD Shell) 
own 50 % or more of refining, discovery and gas station (distribution) 
operations.  They own it all and aren't worried about a little thing like 
Congress.


Rad


-- Original Message --
From: Kenji James Fuse [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Date:  Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:31:11 -0800 (PST)

Did you all hear today's Democracy Now? Looks like the US is letting
Chavez sell heating oil at a 40% reduction to poor-er folk in Brooklyn and
Boston.

I imagine the petro boys and the corporate world are squirming right now:
this is the first time a major corporation (Citgo?) has VOLUNTARILY taken
a profit cut! This is, in my view, a major accomplishment and may signal
the beginning of the end for corporate-America...

I really hope Chavez is around next year.

KF


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Re: [Biofuel] US Guvmint to tax alternate fuel vehicles?