Re: [Biofuel] distilling fuel/reactant ethanol
Jason Katie wrote 1. exposing a substance to vacuum lowers the boiling point In some instances this is used to lower the temperature such as in the extraction of Tee Tree oils. This gives the oil derived by such means a higher re-sale value as it is not boiled off at high temperatures. 2. a substance under vacuum vaporizes more quickly than at atmospheric pressure This brings to me yet another question. A lot of old automotive sensors using capillary tubes used an alcohol base as the expansion medium. How does Ethanol compare to R134a as a refrigerant? From what I can glean the freezing temp is low and the boiling point low thus close to an ideal refrigerant? Doug -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Lao Telecom MailScanner with NOD32, and is believed to be clean. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Bees and democracy
Bees Form Better DemocracyBy Robin LloydSpecial to LiveScienceposted: 02 May 2006http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/060502_bee_decision.htmlTake it from bees. Intense competition is better than touchy-feely"win-win" negotiations when it comes to making big decisions.Ten years of painstaking research on how swarms of honeybees choose anew hive now shows their voting process for selecting new real estate isefficient and yields some losers while avoiding the folly of thecollective, or of trying to come to a consensus.The bees' approach might sound hardcore and less than democratic. But italmost always results in the choice of the best home among availableoptions, said Thomas Seeley of Cornell University.A better democracyIf humans were to take a page from honeybee home hunting, we too couldlearn to minimize bad decisions, he said."How the scout bees select candidate sites, deliberate among choices andreach a verdict is a process complicated enough to rival the dealings ofany corporate committee," Seeley wrote in a recent article in AmericanScientist magazine summarizing his research.Seeley and his colleague, Kirk Visscher of the University ofCalifornia-Riverside, tagged, observed, videotaped and experimented withswarms of up to 10,000 honeybees at Appledore Island in the Gulf ofMaine. The setting has few trees, which allows Seeley and Visscher toset up test homes (boxes) from which the bees can choose.Here is what they found: When bees outgrow their hives, a few hundredscouts selected by the queen search for the perfect, new location for aswarma south-facing knothole that is smaller than 4.7 square inches,perched several yards above the ground and leads to a hollow in the treethat is at least 5 gallons in volume.Scouts return to the waiting swarm and perform a waggle dance, vibratingtheir abdomens laterally while walking in figure eights, to report onwhat they found. The longer the waggle dance, the better the site. Thisprompts other scouts to visit the recommended site.CompetitionScouts compete to attract uncommitted scouts to visit their sites. Astime passes, coalitions form that prefer one site over another. Insteadof hashing it out endlessly, the group usually makes a decision with nomore than 16 hours of dancing debate. As soon as 15 or more bees are atany one site, the scouts signal to the waiting bees in the swarm to warmup their flight muscles. Soon, the swarm lifts off toward its new home."The bees' method, which is a product of disagreement and contest ratherthan consensus or compromise, consistently yields excellent collectivedecisions," Seeley said.An open forum for opinions and a decentralized, competitive "debate"that filters out extreme or inaccurate opinions are the key featuresthat make the bees' decision-making process effective, Seeley said.Americans value democracy, or at least a representative version of it.Honeybees have evolved to rely on this quorum or majority method tocollect independent opinions, something that differs from a one-man,one-vote democracy or an agonizing attempt to hammer out somethingeveryone agrees upon.It's a faster route to a swift and also smart decision, Seeley said.© 1999-2006 Imaginova Corp. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Yahoo! Mail goes everywhere you do. Get it on your phone.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Mike, Keith, I'd like to add my 2 cents. Hello Mike Weaver NOT TRUE! True. True is correct. Ken Lay had a bunch of goons flown down to storm the recount going on. The recounters were scared so badly, they stopped the counting. Gore had picked up 400 plus votes in a short time and was on his way to winning in Florida when the counting was halted through fear and intimidation. Those 400 something votes never were added into the official tally. The court gave him the first one. He stole the 2nd one ;-) The next one? Even I'm beginning to wonder. FWIW I think Reagan beat Carter w/o chicanery at the ballot box. Reagan had those people being held hostage to continue to be held until after the proper time. It made him look like someone who get things done. Carter was a good president overall, far better than Reagan. You miss the point. There's no need to cheat if the whole charade is a shell game anyway. Keith, you're right. We need to clean up the entire election process. Right now all we get are corporate wolves who say nice pleasant things, but do terrible things once in the Oval Office. I'm not arguing that we're lurching towards a coporatocracy - we are, but I'm not throwing in the towel yet. You're IN a corporatocracy. But that's no reason to throw in the towel either. Oh yeah, deep now and getting deeper every day. We are moving to a police state where we're all to be good orderly consumers but totally impotent as far as influencing the government in Wash DC. Congress now is acting like a deer in the headlights of an oncoming semi-trailer truck, totally frozen into inaction wrt removing the ogre in the Oval Office. It has three more years to wreak havoc on the world, a very dismal thought indeed. I think there is hope yet, but we'll see. Of course there's hope, perhaps more now than ever before. Look it in the face, no need to rose-tint it, you might find more hope there than you think. Hope is always present. BushCo would like to kill hope, since hopeful people tend to resist its insane policies. I agree the left (I prefer Progessives but then I still consider myself a musuem quality Liberal) has been hapless of late. But I don't think all is lost. If nothing else we are certainly energized as we haven't been since the 60's. Yeah, more and more are becoming disgusted with the Bush regime. Now only if we can get the zombie-like Congress to do something. One thing we need to learn is that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Bush is perfect. He never has made a mistake. Ask him. And he is the enemy of the good, all the way. So you are correct. Can you explain to me how that applies to domestic opposition to US torture. Some Americans do believe in torture, probably the 32% that like Bush. But most don't. It definitely isn't something any major religion would back. However, I think most people though don't really understand the idea that the ends do not justify the means and so they are ambivalent about the idea of torture. And this perhaps causes foggy thinking on the issue. I think that the Bush No Child Left Behind policy will cause further decline in critical thinking here in the USA. This is of course what the would-be dictators, like Bush, love. School here is all about learning enough to get a nice job. It is deplorable, but true. Myself, I think learning to use one's brain fluidly is important to live a high quality life in all of its potentialities. (Learning job skills comes in a distant second.) Bush's program causes a reduction in free thinking and teachers are concerned about the students doing well on the Bush imposed tests. Students are taught to be orderly and not be disruptive. They are being set up to be orderly consumers. Or how it applies to the shambles of Progressive opposition during the last 30 years. Liberals have not been effective. Reagan somehow made the word liberal into a put-down. True Progressives are people like Kucinich and Feingold and the late Paul Wellstone. Kerry is not progressive anything and not even a Liberal. It is really not a questions of labels though. The real thing is personal integrity and moral fortitude to go against what's popular and do the right action. Since politics is the art of compromise, politicians can easily slip up and compromise their own integrity. It happens with sickening regularity. It's a noble attempt to stick a band-aid over it. I said I wasn't belittling your efforts, and you know it's true. But please don't evade the issue and then chuck stuff like this at me. Stop trying to paint me as negative while you squirm to get off the hook. You say you've been out fighting all this time along with the huge number of Americans who are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can. Happily accepted, but what efforts have you put into campaigning against US torture? Personally, I have written my Congressional rep and Senators many times. They write back saying they
[Biofuel] Hope is the thing with feathers
Keith and D. Mindock and whoever else - I can't keep track of all the quotes below... Carter was a good president - heck, I have a signed picture from him. First president I voted for. I true to the second one - I think the first was a give away by the court, but I agree about the voter intimidation - I had friends there - certain groups were STRONGLY discouraged from voting- when I have time I'll post the tale. I agree Reagan had hanky-panky w/ the Iran hostage issue, but I don't think there was ballot stuffing The election process is broken and getting worse I fear you are right about the police state I don't think I'm prevaricating and I am certainly not trying to paint you as negative - my *main* point is that I see far more awakeniing and positive progress here in the US than since the 60's. I AM in agreement with you - Americans are complicit because they haven't moved strongly enough to STOP torture. But I think they tide is changing. Heck, I spent several hours sending email for Amnesty International on that very issue this week. Yes, Bushco is nuts. No argument there But now I have to go out of town and won't return until Monday, so don't think for a moment that I have given up arguing with you, Keith. Aside from baiting Redler, going back and forth with you on the list is one of my joys these days - I always enjoy someone who can think and give it right back. Besides, we're mostly on the same page - half the reason I like this list is the clipping service it provides. Mike pointy-headed liberal Weaver D. Mindock wrote: Mike, Keith, I'd like to add my 2 cents. Hello Mike Weaver NOT TRUE! True. True is correct. Ken Lay had a bunch of goons flown down to storm the recount going on. The recounters were scared so badly, they stopped the counting. Gore had picked up 400 plus votes in a short time and was on his way to winning in Florida when the counting was halted through fear and intimidation. Those 400 something votes never were added into the official tally. The court gave him the first one. He stole the 2nd one ;-) The next one? Even I'm beginning to wonder. FWIW I think Reagan beat Carter w/o chicanery at the ballot box. Reagan had those people being held hostage to continue to be held until after the proper time. It made him look like someone who get things done. Carter was a good president overall, far better than Reagan. You miss the point. There's no need to cheat if the whole charade is a shell game anyway. Keith, you're right. We need to clean up the entire election process. Right now all we get are corporate wolves who say nice pleasant things, but do terrible things once in the Oval Office. I'm not arguing that we're lurching towards a coporatocracy - we are, but I'm not throwing in the towel yet. You're IN a corporatocracy. But that's no reason to throw in the towel either. Oh yeah, deep now and getting deeper every day. We are moving to a police state where we're all to be good orderly consumers but totally impotent as far as influencing the government in Wash DC. Congress now is acting like a deer in the headlights of an oncoming semi-trailer truck, totally frozen into inaction wrt removing the ogre in the Oval Office. It has three more years to wreak havoc on the world, a very dismal thought indeed. I think there is hope yet, but we'll see. Of course there's hope, perhaps more now than ever before. Look it in the face, no need to rose-tint it, you might find more hope there than you think. Hope is always present. BushCo would like to kill hope, since hopeful people tend to resist its insane policies. I agree the left (I prefer Progessives but then I still consider myself a musuem quality Liberal) has been hapless of late. But I don't think all is lost. If nothing else we are certainly energized as we haven't been since the 60's. Yeah, more and more are becoming disgusted with the Bush regime. Now only if we can get the zombie-like Congress to do something. One thing we need to learn is that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Bush is perfect. He never has made a mistake. Ask him. And he is the enemy of the good, all the way. So you are correct. Can you explain to me how that applies to domestic opposition to US torture. Some Americans do believe in torture, probably the 32% that like Bush. But most don't. It definitely isn't something any major religion would back. However, I think most people though don't really understand the idea that the ends do not justify the means and so they are ambivalent about the idea of torture. And this perhaps causes foggy thinking on the issue. I think that the Bush No Child Left Behind policy will cause further decline in critical thinking here in the USA. This is of course what the would-be dictators, like Bush, love. School here is all about learning enough to get a nice job.
Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
Hellow Chris I am in the UK too [Lancashire].Could you help me out as to where are the best places for putting a kit together [what is your semi-processor and where can you get methanol from? Much appreciated!! Regards Mark From: Chris Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 22:13:34 +0100 My semi-continuous processor should be operational in about 3-4 weeks. 18 litre capacity, estimated production of 3 litres per 5 minuites. In the UK the environment agency insist on expensive waste management licenses if you produce diesel in batches exceeding 100 litres, but have no regulations limiting the storage of WVO or biodiesel. I am trying to increase my production without falling out of this loophole. If all goes well I should be able to scale up 500% and produce 3 litres per minuite without being naughty in the E.Agencies eyes! Has anyone been using this sugar/acid catalyst thats all the talk at the moment on various forums? Just wondering how people are finding it. I am VERY interested in the sugar catalyst as it appears to produce zero soap. It esterifies as well as transesterify so yield/waste ratio should be significantly higher. A friend tried a small batch and it reacted much quicker than with lye and after seperation the catalyst fell out to be re-used (doesnt dissolve in the mix and is filtered out) and the diesel produced was bottled with water, shaken for several minuites and then after rapid seperation the water was clear. Sounds too good to be true but it seems to be! No more premix catalyst, no more titration, no more washing, no more soap! Hmm... I need to try some I think. It can also be home made! Also I can see advantages with regard the byproduct. Am I correct in saying that the soap is causing the problem with burning the byproduct as a heating fuel? If so then maybe using this method it can be preheated and fed through a waste oil heater, or a mother earth burner? I feel we need to all start doing some experiments with this catalyst and gain as much info as possible as I feel it could be a significant step forwards as long as there are no problems. Having a 2nd hand oven delivered tomorrow to start cooking some sugar to try. Chris Bennett.. I am not suffering from insanity, I am loving every minuite of it! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President
I vote for Redler and volunteer to be a bodyguard as long as I don't have to carry a gun. Keith Addison wrote: theres an idea. dont HIRE our presidents, CONSCRIPT them. then we have someone who just wants to get it over with and go home. then there will be very little actual politicking, just straight business. He/she'd be assassinated. If I were the president, I could stop terrorist attacks against the United States in a few days. Permanently. I would first apologize -- very publicly and very sincerely -- to all the widows and the orphans, the impoverished and the tortured, and all the many millions of other victims of American imperialism. I would then announce that America's global interventions -- including the awful bombings -- have come to an end. And I would inform Israel that it is no longer the 51st state of the union but -- oddly enough -- a foreign country. I would then reduce the military budget by at least 90% and use the savings to pay reparations to the victims and repair the damage from the many American bombings and invasions. There would be more than enough money. Do you know what one year of the US military budget is equal to? One year. It's equal to more than $20,000 per hour for every hour since Jesus Christ was born. That's what I'd do on my first three days in the White House. On the fourth day, I'd be assassinated. -- Bill Blum Keith - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Redler for President I am afraid I must refuse to serve, because I believe that wanting the job indicates that one is unfit for the post. I propose we draft Redler for Pres. He might have a shotgun, which will come in handy for the VP, who should be Street. I would serve as Secretary of Energy in the Redler Administration, though. Joe Street wrote: Mike Weaver for President!! Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun. J Mike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
"Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list."Thank you. Thank you. What an honor it is to be chosen for this great, great award. I'd like to thank the academy for it's wonderful work and support. ...and of course this wouldn't be possible without a great cast and crew...oh...and of course Mom and Dad for making it all possible (it runs in the family).:-)- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. "Regular" people bore me.Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person...Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list.-MikeJason Katie wrote:Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity.- Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Oops.It's not dejavu. You read that one already....sorry.If I keep repeating my nonsense, I might actually become a politician.Agh!!_"Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list."Thank you. Thank you. What an honor it is to be chosen for this great, great award. I'd like to thank the academy for it's wonderful work and support. ...and of course this wouldn't be possible without a great cast and crew...oh...and of course Mom and Dad for making it all possible (it runs in the family).:-)___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] distilling fuel/reactant ethanol
Jason Katie, You wrote: all the permit applications and tax references i have looked up, at least in the US, require fuel grade alcohol to be denatured at a minimum of at least 5% to qualify for the alcohol tax exemption(not sales or road taxes ). can castor oil be used as a denaturant? unless taken in large amounts it is generally not harmful to humans, it is biodegradeable, and as we discussed previously, it dissolves in alcohol. as an added bonus, drinking castor treated alcohol should in theory make a person violently ill with very few lasting side effects (i think the threat -even percieved- of violent diarrhea and vomiting would be a powerful deterrent to drinking the stuff anyway.) According to the Code of Federal Regulations Title 27 Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Sec. 19.1005 Authorized Materials. (a) General. The Director shalldetermine and authorize for use materials for rendering spiirts unfit for beverage use which will ot impair the quality of the spirits for fuel use. ... (b)List. The Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. . The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from the ATF distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153. (c) Authorized Material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following materials in quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more of -- (i) Gasoline ... (EPA may require unleaded if the fuel is to be used in engines that require unleaded gas). (ii) Kerosene (iii) Deodorized kerosene (iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent (v) Methyl isobutyl ketone (vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane (vii) Heptane, or (viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii): or (2) \1/8\ ounce of denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol. So if you were to use gasoline it would be ~ 2% gasoline and 98% ethanol. The regulations can be found at the following link to Part 19. The AFP regulations begin at subpart Y of Part 19. http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_05/27cfr19_05.html Page after page of fascinating reading. Best to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] distilling fuel/reactant ethanol i had another thought, (scary huh?) these are the presumptions this idea revolves around: 1. exposing a substance to vacuum lowers the boiling point 2. a substance under vacuum vaporizes more quickly than at atmospheric pressure 3. excess energy or energy byproduct (normally lost) tapped from another source to produce vacuum qualifies as a low cost, if not (net, at least) free expenditure. if one were to apply vacuum to a castor based alcohol refinery, the heat required would be considerably less, therefore the front-end energy requirements would be less. does it make sense to use this to speed the vaporization process, or am i just lost? AND all the permit applications and tax references i have looked up, at least in the US, require fuel grade alcohol to be denatured at a minimum of at least 5% to qualify for the alcohol tax exemption(not sales or road taxes ). can castor oil be used as a denaturant? unless taken in large amounts it is generally not harmful to humans, it is biodegradeable, and as we discussed previously, it dissolves in alcohol. as an added bonus, drinking castor treated alcohol should in theory make a person violently ill with very few lasting side effects (i think the threat -even percieved- of violent diarrhea and vomiting would be a powerful deterrent to drinking the stuff anyway.) I can feel the laser dots on my forehead already... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
Mark` Cookson wrote: Hellow Chris I am in the UK too [Lancashire].Could you help me out as to where are the best places for putting a kit together [what is your semi-processor and where can you get methanol from? Much appreciated!! Regards Mark I am in sunny Lancashire too, Wigan to be exact. I get my methanol from a guy in Burscough nr Ormskirk. Most of my current kit is either scrapyard or ebay in origin. The semi processor is stainless steel construction and I got the tubing etc form a company in Bradford. The controls etc are once again ebays finest. Its not up and running yet, it might not even work! Will keep u informed and if u want you can come over and have a look when it starts spitting fuel out! Chris.. If you want the guys number for the meth let me know. He charges about £80-90 for a 205l drum. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
Chris Thanks for getting back to me that is great I would love to come down to sunny wigan and have a look. Thanks again for the methanol link too !!! Will contact you again soon. Cheers mate speak soon. Mark From: Chris Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 13:41:54 +0100 Mark` Cookson wrote: Hellow Chris I am in the UK too [Lancashire].Could you help me out as to where are the best places for putting a kit together [what is your semi-processor and where can you get methanol from? Much appreciated!! Regards Mark I am in sunny Lancashire too, Wigan to be exact. I get my methanol from a guy in Burscough nr Ormskirk. Most of my current kit is either scrapyard or ebay in origin. The semi processor is stainless steel construction and I got the tubing etc form a company in Bradford. The controls etc are once again ebays finest. Its not up and running yet, it might not even work! Will keep u informed and if u want you can come over and have a look when it starts spitting fuel out! Chris.. If you want the guys number for the meth let me know. He charges about £80-90 for a 205l drum. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hope is the thing with feathers
Have a good trip Mike Weaver. I also think we're mostly on the same page, and I agree that you like arguing with me and baiting Mike Redler. :-) I definitely agree that there's far more awakening and positive progress now than since the sixties and that the tide is changing, but I think it's not just in the US, it's global. So was the sixties. Bon voyage Keith Keith and D. Mindock and whoever else - I can't keep track of all the quotes below... Carter was a good president - heck, I have a signed picture from him. First president I voted for. I true to the second one - I think the first was a give away by the court, but I agree about the voter intimidation - I had friends there - certain groups were STRONGLY discouraged from voting- when I have time I'll post the tale. I agree Reagan had hanky-panky w/ the Iran hostage issue, but I don't think there was ballot stuffing The election process is broken and getting worse I fear you are right about the police state I don't think I'm prevaricating and I am certainly not trying to paint you as negative - my *main* point is that I see far more awakeniing and positive progress here in the US than since the 60's. I AM in agreement with you - Americans are complicit because they haven't moved strongly enough to STOP torture. But I think they tide is changing. Heck, I spent several hours sending email for Amnesty International on that very issue this week. Yes, Bushco is nuts. No argument there But now I have to go out of town and won't return until Monday, so don't think for a moment that I have given up arguing with you, Keith. Aside from baiting Redler, going back and forth with you on the list is one of my joys these days - I always enjoy someone who can think and give it right back. Besides, we're mostly on the same page - half the reason I like this list is the clipping service it provides. Mike pointy-headed liberal Weaver D. Mindock wrote: Mike, Keith, I'd like to add my 2 cents. Hello Mike Weaver NOT TRUE! True. True is correct. Ken Lay had a bunch of goons flown down to storm the recount going on. The recounters were scared so badly, they stopped the counting. Gore had picked up 400 plus votes in a short time and was on his way to winning in Florida when the counting was halted through fear and intimidation. Those 400 something votes never were added into the official tally. The court gave him the first one. He stole the 2nd one ;-) The next one? Even I'm beginning to wonder. FWIW I think Reagan beat Carter w/o chicanery at the ballot box. Reagan had those people being held hostage to continue to be held until after the proper time. It made him look like someone who get things done. Carter was a good president overall, far better than Reagan. You miss the point. There's no need to cheat if the whole charade is a shell game anyway. Keith, you're right. We need to clean up the entire election process. Right now all we get are corporate wolves who say nice pleasant things, but do terrible things once in the Oval Office. I'm not arguing that we're lurching towards a coporatocracy - we are, but I'm not throwing in the towel yet. You're IN a corporatocracy. But that's no reason to throw in the towel either. Oh yeah, deep now and getting deeper every day. We are moving to a police state where we're all to be good orderly consumers but totally impotent as far as influencing the government in Wash DC. Congress now is acting like a deer in the headlights of an oncoming semi-trailer truck, totally frozen into inaction wrt removing the ogre in the Oval Office. It has three more years to wreak havoc on the world, a very dismal thought indeed. I think there is hope yet, but we'll see. Of course there's hope, perhaps more now than ever before. Look it in the face, no need to rose-tint it, you might find more hope there than you think. Hope is always present. BushCo would like to kill hope, since hopeful people tend to resist its insane policies. I agree the left (I prefer Progessives but then I still consider myself a musuem quality Liberal) has been hapless of late. But I don't think all is lost. If nothing else we are certainly energized as we haven't been since the 60's. Yeah, more and more are becoming disgusted with the Bush regime. Now only if we can get the zombie-like Congress to do something. One thing we need to learn is that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Bush is perfect. He never has made a mistake. Ask him. And he is the enemy of the good, all the way. So you are correct. Can you explain to me how that applies to domestic opposition to US torture. Some Americans do believe in torture, probably the 32% that like Bush. But most don't. It definitely isn't something any major religion would back. However, I think most people though don't really understand the idea that the
Re: [Biofuel] The Predator's Ball
But think of the fallout for the average working stiff with NO safety net The same argument is made against renewable energy, but there are far more jobs in renewable energy than in fossil fuels, and far more jobs in negawatts too. It could be the same with this if we got it right. - we need to keep the good and change the bad. Just because it's gotten MUCH worse under Bush doesn't mean we can't repair it. It needs the kind of heroic surgery that's an outstanding success only it kills the patient. http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg30628.html [biofuel] Mammoth corporations Look at Roosevelt's programs - that was a wholesale change without a total collapse and failure - sure the Depression spurred it, but the country as a whole did not fail. I don't think it's such an apt comparison, the relationship with today's corporateering is a bit flimsy. Anyway we're not talking about countries failing, societies are good at meeting change and challenge without total collapse and failure, even if the history books like all the wars better. On the other hand everything will fail if this isn't dealt with. But how far have you got with campaign finance reform so far, for instance? How can you reform it when the whole of Washington likes it just the way it is only more so? All the scandals are just bouncing off, scapegoats are going down but nobody kicked over the trough yet. What else can you hope to achieve when that's the situation in Washington? It's the same with corporate crime. The electoral process isn't working, the legislature isn't working, the regulatory process isn't working, the law isn't working, and the media isn't working. What is working? If I had a better alternative than democracy I would have posted it long ago. Ours could be vastly improved by adherence to the one man, one vote principle eviscerated by the Supreme Court in creating Supercitizens, corporations which in effect have fifty thousand to a million votes, depending on the amount of dollars they spend in lobbying, advertising and bribes to candidates and political parties. Commercial free speech for corporations is a Supreme Court artifice as is equating free speech with a torrent of dollars the small voice and wallet of individual voters cannot match. If the regularly violated Federal Constitution has any real meaning any more, it accords no voting rights to artificial persons---the concept was entirely foreign to those who wrote and ratified it. - Tvoivozhd Also: Small-scale capitalism works out fine, but as scale increases the departure from real capitalism becomes more pronounced---profits are privatized, but costs are socialized. The attendant repair and maintenance are left to succeeding generations if possible, if not, to present low and middle income taxpayers. - Tvoivozhd Small is beautiful. I've spent enough time in Africa to know societal collapse is not the answer... It's not the only other option, and societal collapse is not the only thing you find in Africa, I'm sure you'll admit. Jason Katie wrote: i say LET IT FAIL. let it fail like a drunk acrobat with no net. if anything we should try to accelerate the process. the faster we hit bottom, the faster we can re-establish something decent. there are very few ways to repair this mess without a total demolition and refurbishment. I must say I agree, sort of. Or you can keep making it hurt in the pocket, or persuading the shareholders to make it hurt, or mounting campaigns that make the accountants complain. It all happens, but at a snail's pace, and I think that's because we don't think to disarm them. You have to stop the spin. The trouble is it works so well most people aren't even aware of it, and if they are they think they're immune. The United States is not only number one in military power but also in the effectiveness of its propaganda system. -- Edward S. Herman So you could be right Jason. Nice turn of phrase, a drunk acrobat with no net. Shake the rope. Best Keith - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 2:17 AM Subject: [Biofuel] The Predator State = Enron, Tyco, WorldCom... and the U.S. government? http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12880.htm The Predator State Enron, Tyco, WorldCom... and the U.S. government? By James K. Galbraith 04/29/06 Mother Jones -- -- WHAT IS THE REAL NATURE of American capitalism today? Is it a grand national adventure, as politicians and textbooks aver, in which markets provide the framework for benign competition, from which emerges the greatest good for the greatest number? Or is it the domain of class struggle, even a global class war, as the title of Jeff Faux's new book would have it, in which the party of Davos outmaneuvers the remnants of the organized working class? The doctrines of the law and economics
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
I am probably missing something, but where would the water be coming from in the first place? Isn't the waste oil you start with not supposed to contain any water, and if it does, you need to boil it off? Then there's the methanol. It should not contain any water either. I don't believe the catalyst would contain any water either. It is the waste glycerin layer that contains most of the methanol, correct? I have been told that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. So I'm asking...where is the water coming from?Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return andrecycling of distillate product from the condenser back down thefractionatingcolumn which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying themethanol.This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packedfractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed withsmall glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanolproduction, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works forethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope.Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop.Michael GianMike McGinnessbob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite "molecular sieves" in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
You probably don't get all of the water out of the oil because when it mixes with the oil the boiling point is raised. It would probably take 230-240F with a vacuum to pull the water 100% out. Without the vacuum the water vapor will still condense slightely on the walls of your heating pot. During the reaction you also create water. The combination of these is still very small. It might be 1% water to recovered methanol for every batch, but the water is not being used in processingso the second batch will have 2% and it will add up. Logan Vilas From: Jonathan Schearer To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? I am probably missing something, but where would the water be coming from in the first place? Isn't the waste oil you start with not supposed to contain any water, and if it does, you need to boil it off? Then there's the methanol. It should not contain any water either. I don't believe the catalyst would contain any water either. It is the waste glycerin layer that contains most of the methanol, correct? I have been told that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. So I'm asking...where is the water coming from?Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return andrecycling of distillate product from the condenser back down thefractionatingcolumn which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying themethanol.This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packedfractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed withsmall glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanolproduction, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works forethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope.Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop.Michael GianMike McGinnessbob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can
Re: [Biofuel] distilling fuel/reactant ethanol
On May 4, 2006, at 8:21 PM, Jason Katie wrote: if one were to apply vacuum to a castor based alcohol refinery, the heat required would be considerably less, therefore the front-end energy requirements would be less. does it make sense to use this to speed the vaporization process? Absolutely, if you can produce the required vacuum for less energy than the heat you'll save. AND all the permit applications and tax references i have looked up, at least in the US, require fuel grade alcohol to be denatured at a minimum of at least 5% to qualify for the alcohol tax exemption(not sales or road taxes ). can castor oil be used as a denaturant? I don't believe so, but you can study the various types of denatured ethanol at the Pharmco-Aaper site here: http://www.pharmco-prod.com/pages/ethanoldenatured.html There is one formula for a CDA (completely denatured alcohol) that only requires 2% denaturant -- namely, gasoline. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
The reaction produces some water Jonathan Schearer wrote: I am probably missing something, but where would the water be coming from in the first place? Isn't the waste oil you start with not supposed to contain any water, and if it does, you need to boil it off? Then there's the methanol. It should not contain any water either. I don't believe the catalyst would contain any water either. It is the waste glycerin layer that contains most of the methanol, correct? I have been told that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. So I'm asking...where is the water coming from? Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return and recycling of distillate product from the condenser back down the fractionating column which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying the methanol. This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packed fractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed with small glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanol production, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works for ethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope. Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop. Michael Gian Mike McGinness bob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite "molecular sieves" in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
Logan Vilaswrote: "During the reaction you also create water." I think thatwater wouldform during the reaction that produces Potassium (or Sodium) Methoxide: CH3OH + KOH --- CH3OK + H2O or CH3OH+ NaOH ---CH3ONa + H2O Water might also be produced as FFAs are converted to soaps as the K+/Na+ replaces an H on the FFA and OH releases from KOH (or NaOH) --- H2O. I would expect water to be formed when the phosphoric acid neutralizes the KOH (or NaOH) during the splitting of the glycerine co-product prior to methanol recovery. (Acid + Base --- mineral salt + water). The oil I used for the batches that I recovered the methanol from was very good/dry. I preheated to remove what water was there, but as Logan pointed out, some water is inevitable. Remember that I was recovering methanol from crude glycerine split from the co-product formed from about 1200 L of processed oil; 13 - 14 91L batches. I should have known that water would come over when temp rose to 180F and above. I was simply too greedy. Tom - Original Message - From: logan vilas To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? You probably don't get all of the water out of the oil because when it mixes with the oil the boiling point is raised. It would probably take 230-240F with a vacuum to pull the water 100% out. Without the vacuum the water vapor will still condense slightely on the walls of your heating pot. During the reaction you also create water. The combination of these is still very small. It might be 1% water to recovered methanol for every batch, but the water is not being used in processingso the second batch will have 2% and it will add up. Logan Vilas From: Jonathan Schearer To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol? I am probably missing something, but where would the water be coming from in the first place? Isn't the waste oil you start with not supposed to contain any water, and if it does, you need to boil it off? Then there's the methanol. It should not contain any water either. I don't believe the catalyst would contain any water either. It is the waste glycerin layer that contains most of the methanol, correct? I have been told that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. So I'm asking...where is the water coming from?Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return andrecycling of distillate product from the condenser back down thefractionatingcolumn which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying themethanol.This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packedfractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed withsmall glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanolproduction, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works forethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope.Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop.Michael GianMike McGinnessbob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol
[Biofuel] B100 and synthetic seals
B100 is known to have a solvent effect against natural rubber parts of the engine, mostly seals like fuel pump seal so we might need to change those parts into synthetic rubber seal. But synthetic rubber is a product of petroleum. How is this work out to be sustainable? Is there a truely 100% renewable engines and fuel? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Water in recovered methanol?
If using the Acid process you will generate some water. Also remember the oil is dry but there are trace amounts of water in the best grease but I dont think this causes a problem. JIM Jonathan Schearer wrote: I am probably missing something, but where would the water be coming from in the first place? Isn't the waste oil you start with not supposed to contain any water, and if it does, you need to boil it off? Then there's the methanol. It should not contain any water either. I don't believe the catalyst would contain any water either. It is the waste glycerin layer that contains most of the methanol, correct? I have been told that the only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. So I'm asking...where is the water coming from? */Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: In additon, a fractionating column requires a reflux, the partial return and recycling of distillate product from the condenser back down the fractionating column which increases the energy tax (energy costs) of purifying the methanol. This is true for tray towers. A more elegant setup is a packed fractionating column, aka reflux column. Years ago we made one packed with small glass beads for jewelry, picked up cheap at a garage sale. Ethanol production, in this case not intended to fuel machinery. What works for ethanol will work for methanol, probably better, given no water azeotrope. Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch11 has the poop. Michael Gian Mike McGinness bob allen wrote: without getting into excessive detail, the boiling point of a mixture is the weighted average of the stuff present. At first you have pure methanol coming off. as the temperature rose, increasing amounts of water contaminated the alcohol. You need a fractionating column to obtain pure methanol. Joe Street wrote: 3A sieves will work but are normally used for getting tiny amounts of water out of solvents to bring them into the low ppm range. They will work of course but you might saturate them and have to do a second stage. There is a significant energy input into regenerating the seives as well. You have to bake them at well over 100 degrees C more like 200, but you can get by with lower temps if you bake them out with vacuum. Try putting a thermometer in your condenser and monitor vapour temperature to get a better endpoint and you will have an easier time. You have answered some of my own questions. I have recovered some methanol but not tried to use it yet. Sounds like if straight distillation is carefully done the methanol is dry enough to use without further drying. Great news and thanks for the post! :) I have some excellent references on solvent drying I can mail you if you want. No soft copy sorry but I might be able to scan them. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Good day to all, After splitting the glycerine coproduct from roughly 1200L of processed WVO, I distilled approximately 100L of the glycerine/methanol component. The first drops of methanol began to fall from the condenser at 145F. As the temp rose to 150F there was a steady flow of clear liquid from the condenser. Throughout the day I turned the heat off when the flow was steady and back on when it slowed. I filled a 4.5 gal (17.7L) cubie with clear liquid and started a second one. At this point the temp was over 160F. I let the still run up to 200F. At this point the second cubie had 4 gallons of clear liquid (and it was now 1AM) giving a total of 8.5 gal. I was thrilled with the result (and tired). I used the first 4.5 gal (17.7L) to run one batch, and while that was settling ran a second batch using the second 4 gal of recovered methanol. The first batch washed OK, but was a little slow to separate. It failed the methanol quality test. The second batch did not even pass the wash test. I have been making consistenly high quality BD for several months ... thank you JtF and list members. I don't think I made mistakes in measurement or titration. My question: As my distillation temps rose towards 200F (93C) could I have been including water in my distillate? (The methanol recovered at lower temps performed better than the methanol recovered at higher temps.) If so, can I use Zeolite molecular sieves in the future to remove it? Thanks, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing
Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
Mark` Cookson wrote: Chris Thanks for getting back to me that is great I would love to come down to sunny wigan and have a look. Thanks again for the methanol link too !!! Will contact you again soon. Cheers mate speak soon. Mark My mate got 3 drums from him today, he has put his prices up to £93 a drum. Not sure if he will just sell to anyone but if you get stuck let me know and I can always get a drum for you. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sweet catalyst continuous processes
Jason Katie wrote: they a discussing the sugar catalyst in detail at http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/9771067631/p/1 if i am reading these people's experiences right, the catalyst is made by partially breaking down a sugar molecule by heating it, and then introducing an acid (H2SO4). this creates a nanobot of sorts by attatching the acidic molecules to the pyrolized sugar near a basic branch, giving us the acid/base process on an infinitely small scale repeated trillions of times per second, and barely depleting the catalyst (theyre still debating useful lifespans of the material). i cannot vouch for any of these statements as true or false, but with all the research going on around the subject, and the fact that these people have attempted it, then it may have an extreme value if not interest. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ I have just got a small sample of the catalyst. I plan to make 2x 0.5 litre batches on my hotplate stirrer. 1 with lye as normal 1 with sugar. I will boil off the excess methanol and measure the quantities of byproduct produced to compare the lack of soap claims. I will do some wash tests to see how clean the diesel is. looks like instant coffee granules, it would be quite easy to enclose a quantity in a mesh cylinder and place inside one of the reactor pipes after the pump. Or even have a short length of pipe with a strainer at the downstream end filled with the stuff, just pump the mix over it repeatedly. Just unscrew the length of pipe and 'top up' when required. Maybe a piece of translucent hose could be incorporated to give a visual indication of you catalyst levels. As long as it could be removed to top it up, or have an access point upstream of the strainer to pour more in it should work fine. Chris.. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
