Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[Kirk McLoren]

http://www.mwt.net/~drbrewer/highpH.htm     Reprinted from Pharmacology Biochemistry & Behavior, v. 21, Suppl., 1, by A. Keith Brewer, Ph.D.," The High pH Therapy for Cancer, Tests on Mice and Humans," pp. 1-5, Copyright 1984, with permission from Elsevier Science. Single copies of the article can be downloaded and printed for the reader's personal research and study.      BREWER, A. K. The high pH therapy for cancer tests on mice and humans. PHARMACOL BIOCHEM BEHAV 21: Suppl. 1, 1-5. 1984.---Mass spectrographic and isotope studies have shown that potassium, rubidium, and especially cesium are most efficiently taken up by cancer cells. This uptake was enhanced by Vitamins A and C as well as salts of zinc and
 selenium. The quantity of cesium taken up was sufficient to raise the cell to the 8 pH range. Where cell mitosis ceases and the life of the cell is short. Tests on mice fed cesium and rubidium showed marked shrinkage in the tumor masses within 2 weeks. In addition, the mice showed none of the side effects of cancer. Tests have been carried out on over 30 humans. [Please note: these tests were not conducted by Dr. Brewer.] In each case the tumor masses disappeared. Also all pains and effects associated with cancer disappeared within 12 to 36 hr; the more chemotherapy and morphine the patient had taken, the longer the withdrawal period. Studies of the food intake in areas where the incidences of cancer are very low showed that it met the requirements for the high pH therapy.              As for the American Cancer Society page about cesium chloride it no longer states 150 grams as ld50
 for a human. It is now more technically written.http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Cesium_Chloride.asp?sitearea=ETO     ---  Homeopathy is a minor part of alternative medicine and not espoused by many alternative physicians. I think naturopathy is the actual medicine we had prior to Rockefeller - pharma corporations and pharma grants to pharma doctoring schools. So you are being glib at best.     Kirk        bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Kirk McLoren wrote:> No - the beta carotene is water soluble.want to bet? I guess you wouldn't trust me, but regardless, I worked with the stuff last
 spring, I had a student examine the UV spectra of beta carotene (dissolved in benzene) vs the spectrum of red palm oil. the are essentially identical. the point is I know that the stuff water insoluble. Just look at the chemical structure- its a hydrocarbon.BETA-CAROTENESOLUBILITY IN WATER, insoluble. pH. VAPOR DENSITY. REFRACTIVE INDEX ... One molecule of beta-carotene splits into two molecules of vitamin A and thus ...www.chemicalland21.com/lifescience/foco/BETA-CAROTENE.htm - 65k - Cached - Similar pagesnow you find me a citation where it says the stuff is water soluble.The premise is the body wont> make a toxic level of vitamin A from it.> As for quack watch they are a bunch of quacks. Good god Bob what do you > expect a bunch of allopaths to say about non allopathic medicine? ah yes, allopathy, otherwise known as
 science-based medicine vs homeopathy, otherwise known as nonsense.It> will be a cold day in hell when they give an unprejudiced report. Our > metasticised cancer cure rate is no better than before -- after 30 years > of "war on cancer" The only improvement the allopaths have is earlier > detection.do you have a reference for that statistic? Is it from the same source that informed you about the solubility of beta carotene? I do know that for most cancers both morbidity and mortality are both down over the last 30 yrs.see the rather extensive files available athttp://www.cancer.gov/statistics/And we are to bend our knee and kiss their ring? I think not.just you kirk, not me. ;->> > As for non Harvard data base modalities the cesium chloride mouse study > was interesting yet all we see is is the American Cancer Society warning > about
 toxicity.you lost me here, direct me to a reference to the CsCl studyThe master poisoners - and that is what chemotherapyum, this would be ad hominem by proxy attack?is> - discourage cesium because the ld50 is 160 grams or thereabouts.the simplest probe of toxicity is LD50 usually expressed as mass/unit body wt. You gave me a number that is undefined. From the literature one finds:Oral rat LD50: 2004 mg/kg. Oral mouse LD50: 2306 mg/kg. Investigated as a mutagen and reproductive effector.> I'm curious Bob what the ld50 for NaCl is. ORL-RAT LD50 3000 mg kg-1 this stuff is really easy to get kirk, I send my students to the literature every day for toxicological dataI think 160 grams of table> salt could be quite an ordeal.> So the ACS hype is just that perhaps. The university study claimed > remission in 97% of the mice if I recall
 correctly. So where is the > double blind study?> > LEF hosts the federal paper.Not their work - and the study was vitamin> A not beta carotene.> LEF is a goo

Re: [Biofuel] Science

[Kirk McLoren]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3582304&dopt=Citation  These findings suggest that rare earth metal fumes should be considered as cytotoxic to lung tissue and therefore potentially fibrogenic. .  It gets worse     http://www.potters.org/subject73406.htm  Cerium oxide is usually contaminated with minute amounts of thorium = oxide. Though cerium isn't the problem, it's found in the same minerals = as the thorium. Removing the last traces is nearly impossible. Thorium IS a radioactive element, it emits alpha particles.=20 Use good housekeeping when working the cerium oxide so it isn't inhaled = or ingested. That's where alpha particles do
 their harm. "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Joe,  At  http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=17367&ch=nanotech   they discuss using cerium oxide, not aluminum, in diesel fuel.  I do worry about nano sized particles getting out into the air we breathe. If cerium  or aluminum are catalysts that
 means they are not burnt and come out the exhaust, right?  Any comments.  Peace, D. Mindock- Original Message -   From: Joe Street   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 10:31 AM  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Science  I meant about colloidal
 fuels.JD. Mindock wrote:  Joe didn't let the cat out of the bag. It was already out:  http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=14105&ch=nanotech&sc=&pg=1  We have never needed peace more than now. Bush's dumb cowboy antics are making the US  a heckava lot unsafer.  Rep. Dennis Kucinich wants to establish a Dept of Peace. It is an idea that needs  to become a reality soon.  I say take 50% of the military budget and
 get the DoP going.  Peace, D. Mindock   P.S. >From what I've read, nano sized particles are dangerous of and in themselves. The body doesn't know what to do with them.- Original Message -   From: Joe Street   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:16 AM  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Science  Hey Robert;That's a fun message but aren't you using fiction to support your argument?  Uhhh fiction you wrote!  Kewl.  I didn't know one could do this.  I'll remember the technique next time we have our performance reviews or I get pulled over by the cops for speeding.  LOL.Meanwhile.in the REAL world..weapons work alarmingly well as tools of fear and control. ( Let me say I wish everyone was nice enough that it was uneccesary to resort to imposed controlmaybe one day we'll evolve to that level I hope) A weapon as a deterrent? Of
 course.  As I have said here before take a round table discussion, out of control with all the examples of bad behaviour. Now put a loaded .45 in the hands of EACH person at the table and see how quickly it gets quiet and downright civilized!Why do bullies seldom have to actually beat the crap out of someone?  Because one or two examples like that serve to underline the threat and it is the fear of that implied threat which does the bullies work.  Why does the US so desperately want to keep nukes out of the hands of all the countries that don't have them? ( even though the US has proven they aren't responsible enough to have them, having already anihilated so many human beings with the loathesome device) It is the bullies tool.  See how well it works.Getting back to the science thread, the US navy is currently working on bombs using nano aluminum as a high explosive which generate a shockwave similar to a nuke but without the radiation.
 A clean nuke so to speak.  Lovely eh?  (Don't ask me how I know this.) All the death and destruction without the poison.( "well we ASSUME so")  Kind of the opposite idea of the neutron bomb which leaves the structure and kills the life. DuhI guess they figured out a city that's too hot to enter isn't much of a prize.  But this way it's doublegood.  You level a city, wipe out your foes, and then you reap the profits of rebuilding everything. Or at least the elite members of your club do.(This is bitter sarcasm in case you didn't get that)  To me this is scarier than nukes because going back to the round table analogy, you might have some sick bastard who is twisted enough and thinks he is fast enough to grab his .45 and blow away everyone else at the table before anyone can get him.  With that type of weapon it is conceivable, and there is no blowback so to speak.  But to make the analogy work better as a model for nukes you have
 to replace the .45 with hand grenades. Now nobody gets out of the room alive. Nano bombs are very likely to be used for this reason they are like big sicko .45s.Oh while I'm on the subject of disclosing military nano science secrets, they are currently also experimenting with colloidal jet fuels.  Adding nano metals to jet fuel gives them something like an octane boost.  But they didn't ask anyone if we mind them seeding the atmosphere with nano particles.  We are all part of

Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[Kirk McLoren]

http://cancer.about.com/od/foodguide/f/cancerbetacaro.htm     Smokers had more cancer but non smokers did not exhibit same response.        http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag99/aug99-report1.html  Lipids, too, play a role in whether the carotenes are effective. The carotenes are lipid soluble-they must have fat to be absorbed. It has been consistently demonstrated that foods with fat in them deliver more lycopene into the body than lycopene can manage on its own-olive oil delivers the lycopene in a tomato-based spaghetti sauce, the cheese in pizza makes the lycopene in the sauce absorbable.     One of the largest and most important cancer/diet studies ever done shows the importance of the carotenes in digestive cancers. The study
 was begun in 1980 in Linxian, China. Linxian has one of the highest rates of esophageal and gastric cancer in the world. Its population also has subnormal levels of vitamins C, E, A, riboflavin and the carotenes. In an effort to see whether supplementation would cut the cancer rate, over twenty-nine thousand people were given four different nutrient combinations in the Linxian study. Four different combinations were tested: riboflavin, niacin; vitamin C, molybdenum; retinol, zinc; or beta-carotene, vitamin E, selenium. After five years, the results showed that the beta-carotene, E, selenium combination cut the cancer rate and overall mortality. The others did not. Reduction in risk began to occur one to two years after supplements were begun. It was also discovered that men who took the combination had a lower risk of stroke, and better immune response (this didn't
 occur in women for some reason).  Another cancer that may relate to lycopene is pancreatic. Researchers at Johns Hopkins tested the stored blood of twenty-two people with pancreatic cancer for levels of certain vitamins and selenium. (Blood was drawn before treatment). Lycopene and selenium levels were lower in patients than controls. While this is very preliminary, animal studies do show good effects against pancreatic cancer in animals treated with beta-carotene, selenium and vitamin C. In hamsters, palm carotene (which contains lycopene) inhibits pancreatic cancer.     http://www.positivehealth.com/PERMIT/ARTICLES/Cancer/good3.htmCarotenoids such as beta carotene, sometimes called pro-vitamin A, are water-soluble precursors which are made into Vitamin A by the body. While you can overdose on fat-soluble Vitamin A, large doses of
 water-soluble beta carotene, found in carrots, broccoli, spinach, cabbage, orange and yellow fruits, are non-toxic and constitute an extremely potent source of antioxidant activity.     Fat-soluble Vitamin A compounds include retinol, retinal and retinoic acid     And no Quack watch is quackwatch.com They are in court facing 1.3 million in damages.  Typical know it all allopaths being called on the carpet for their usual opinion represented as fact.  They peddle MD means real doctor and all others are frauds. Taint so McGee.     http://www.quackpotwatch.org/opinionpieces/quackbusters_barrett.htm  Stephen Barrett (quackwatch.com), and Bobbie Baratz (NCAHF.org), are finding out, it can, and will, be downright expensive...  Quackbusters like to bully
 people.  It's all they have.  It's the megalomaniac thing to do... Why?  Facts, logic, and social reality, are not on their side, arguing the issues surrounding North America's rush away from "conventional medicine" towards what has been called "Alternative Medicine."   Just north of Toronto, Ontario, Canada by two-and-a-half hours, is the little town of Bracebridge, Ontario. It's there that Stephen Barrett, and Robert S. Baratz, North America's two top VISIBLE quackbusters,  have been set down for civil trial - for their misbehavior. In essence, Barrett, and Baratz, are getting their noses bloodied again - in full view of the general public.  According to court documents recently filed in Canada, Barrett and Baratz's "bullying" was listed in 86 separate "claims," with 176 separate "allegations," 463 requests to admit, backed by a demand for
 authenticity of 47 documents.     Kirk     Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Kirk, Bob, Terry,      I enetered this discussion admtting "I don't know."  Now I still don't know and I'm confused. I always believed that Vitamin A is fat soluble  ... hence it is found in fish oil and can be stored (in the liver).       It seems
 that there is a class of compounds that are  referred to as Vitamin A      Vitamin A:  preformed or provitamin A caretenoids such as alpha and beta-carotene. Then there's retinol, retinal, retanoic acid.   ???      Kirk, you mention B-Carotene specifically, so I looked it up  Beta Carotene: Molecular Formula: C40H56   Insoluble in water.     "As for quack watch they are a bunch of quacks"  This, I take it is in reference to the New England Journal of Medicine Bob referred to     This, I believe, is an abstract of the study referred to:In the A

Re: [Biofuel] was..Bring loaded firearms aboard

Paul you need to get your facts straight or at least your 
myths 
 
It is imposable to open an Door or Emergency exit while the 
plane is pressurized.
The doors are larger than the openings they sit in. The air 
pressure keeps the closed. 
Ever noticed why the open inward then turned sideways, 
before it is pushed outside the aircraft. 
 
It is near impossible to take out a window in an jetliner. 
They between 3 and 5 layers thick and made from Polycarbonate, they will not 
blowout. 
A bullet will only punch a hole in them. 

 
Your statement the you will die if the plane depressurizes 
is also false. 
You will become unconscious after 5-10mins at altitude and 
will die in 20+min, but by that time the pilot will have lowered the aircraft to 
a breathable altitude (15k or less) 
Now if your pilots are unable to do the maneuver, I 
guess you are out of luck. 
 
The fresh air compressors on modern jetliner could 
probability keep up with 20-30 bullets holds without loosing enough pressure to 
make people pass out. 
 
If you realy want rapid decompression, try flying on a 
real old Hawian Air lines plane or a bomb.
 
Mark 

 



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul S 
CantrellSent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 1:19 PMTo: 
biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] was..Bring loaded 
firearms aboard
Not entirely...Mostly depends on how big the hole is.  The size 
of a finger gets you a loud whistling noise.  A larger hole will cause 
rapid decompression.  God forbid a gunshot caused a window to pop out, or 
an emergency door to pop open.
On 9/20/06, Chip 
Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
Paul 
  S Cantrell wrote:> Problem comes when you shoot a hole in that 'metal 
  tube' at 33,000 feet and> the plane depressurizes and EVERYONE on board 
  dies.naw,that's fiction.Entertaining though it may 
  have been, Goldfinger wasn't a documentary. 
  ___Biofuel mailing 
  listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel 
  at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch 
  the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a 
room just by flicking a switchThe genius of you Americans is that you 
never make clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us 
wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them which we are 
missing. - Gamal Abdel Nasser 
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[Biofuel] changes in titration values

[Golan Shmuel]

hi!
 
does any of you notice major difference in titration values in the same oil before and after 1-2 months in stalling tank?
 
i have anew 1000 liter black  staling tank outside in the sun (it get very hot here in the summer 38-45 c July Aug) 
same  oil that titrated 2.4 for few times before entering the tank titrated 0.9 after few weeks in the tank i titrated over and over again for 8 times i change for fresh indicator twice but i still got the same result 
0.9 i just made batch using 3.5+0.9 Noah and it pass the quality test (both methanol&washing) just fine
any idea how this magic works?
 
all the best 
Golan
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[Biofuel] qulity tests help please

[Golan Shmuel]

hi
 
any explanation for passing methanol tests perfectly 
but steal having third layer 3-4 mm in the wash tests
happened to me in 3 last batch's
 
thanks
Golan
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Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[Michael Friebel]

Here's a nice report on the subject:


9/11 Conspiracy Theories: The 9/11 Truth Movement in
Perspective
 
by Phil Molé 

At the Hyatt Regency O’Hare near Chicago, a crowd of
approximately 400 people has gathered on a pleasant
summer evening. Some are old and some are young; some
are dressed in colorful tie-died shirts while others
wear dress shirts and slacks, but most seem cheerful
and friendly. We are all waiting for the opening of
the main lecture hall for the evening’s event, the
first of many scheduled talks during a weekend-long
conference. We bide some time by looking at the items
for sale: DVD copies of Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit
9/11, the anti-Karl Rove documentary Bush’s Brain, and
the more recent Walmart: The High Cost of Low Price. 

There is nothing especially unusual here, since all of
these are available at the Borders or Best Buy near
you. But then as the doors to the main hall are about
to open, one anxious attendee tries to start a chant
of “9/11 was an Inside Job.” A few people join in
before another attendee tells him, quite emphatically,
“we already know!” The weekend conference is the
Chicago meeting for 911truth.org, one of the most
visible organizations within a larger coalition known
as the “9/11 Truth Movement,” and most of the crowd
believes that the United States government planned and
orchestrated the terrorist attacks of September 11,
2001. 

The statement “we already know!” well summarizes the
attitude of the conference attendees toward the
material presented during the lectures. Many at the
conference do not seem to be looking for new
information that might lead to more accurate
perspectives about the events of 9/11. A fellow
sitting near me admits, “We already know this stuff;
we’re here to reconfirm what we already know.” The
conference is a way for attendees to consolidate their
group identity, and try to bring their message to
those people at home and abroad who believe the
“official story” of 9/11. As someone who does not
share the views of the 9/11 Truth Movement, I have
another objective. I want to listen to their arguments
and view their evidence, and understand the reasons
why so many likable and otherwise intelligent people
are convinced that the United States government
planned the murder of nearly 3,000 of its own
citizens. 

The Collapse of World Trade Center Buildings 1 & 2 

When most of us recall the events of 9/11, we think of
the image of those two seemingly indestructible World
Trade Center towers crumbling to the ground. Not
surprisingly, their collapse is also a central issue
for the 9/11 Truth Movement. An overwhelming amount of
the organization’s talks and publicity materials
address the fall of Buildings 1 and 2. But as these
materials show, 911truth.org does not believe the
official story that the primary damage to the WTC
occurred when two airplanes hijacked by terrorists
crashed into the towers. Rather, they maintain that
the towers fell due to a controlled demolition,
planned in advance by the United States government. 

Why do they think this? A primary reason seems to be
that the collapse of the towers looks like the result
of a controlled demolition. Since there is no
structural resistance to gravity in a controlled
demolition, the building collapses straight into its
own footprint, with each floor “pancaking” onto the
floors below at or near the speed of a free fall. Many
of the presenters at the Hyatt Conference compared
videos of the collapse of the towers with videos of
known controlled demolitions, noting the similarity in
both the appearance and speed of collapse.
911truth.org maintains that if actually hit by an
airplane, the steel structure of the WTC buildings
should have provided at least some resistance to the
weight of the floors above, causing the falling
structure to pitch over to one side rather than
pancake straight down. They further argue that fires
caused by burning jet fuel from the crashed planes
could not have caused the collapse, since jet fuel
burns at a temperature of no more than 1500°
Fahrenheit,1 while a temperature of approximately
2800° is needed to melt steel. David Heller makes the
point in a widely read article: 

The official story maintains that fires weakened the
buildings. Jet fuel supposedly burned so hot it began
to melt the steel columns supporting the towers. But
steel-framed skyscrapers have never collapsed from
fire, since they’re built from steel that doesn’t melt
below 2750° Fahrenheit. No fuel, not even jet fuel,
which is really just refined kerosene, will burn
hotter than 1500° Fahrenheit.2 

Since burning jet fuel is not hot enough by itself to
melt steel, reports that melted steel was observed at
Ground Zero suggest to conspiracy theorists that some
other incendiary substance must have been introduced. 

Finally, many of the leaders of the movement claim
that demolition “squibs” can be seen in videos of the
WTC collapse just before and during the time the
towers began to fall. In professional dem

Re: [Biofuel] was.. WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[AltEnergyNetwork]

Well, the video I saw looked a lot like a couple of real demols, that I've 
seen, thats all.
Maybe I got confused with another video. The whole affair is fishy though,
Thanks for the link. 

regards
tallex

>  ---Original Message---
>  From: Paul S Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] was.. WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
>  Sent: 21 Sep '06 21:00
>  
>  It most certainly did not fall like a controlled demolition.  It didn't
>  even completely fall flat into its footprint.  It fell towards the South
>  and nearly split in two as it fell.  The remains had to be demolished.  It
>  is illogical to point to demolition videos of concrete reinforced steel
>  buildings and compare to WTC7, as it was a steel tube in tube design over
>  an existing 5 story building.
>  
>  Pay special attention to Chapter 5:
>  [LINK: http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtcreport.htm]
>  http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtcreport.htm
>  
>  The damage to the southwest corner was as a result of WTC1 falling, but it
>  was ultimately caused as the HUGE diesel fuel fire that was not fought for
>  7 hours.  It fell from the inside, as you can see, the east penthouse fell
>  into the building, then the west penthouse fell into the building, then you
>  can see a stress point, or kink develop up the building and it starts to
>  fall inward to the ground.
>  
>  Here is a good website of debunking:
>  [LINK: http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm]
>  http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm
>  
>  People see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear...People
>  believe what they want to believe.
>  
>  
>  On 9/21/06, ALTENERGYNETWORK <[LINK:
>  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  I've been following this thread and there certainly seems to be many
>  things that don't add up.
>  Until recently I was under the impression that building seven came down as
>  a result of the falling towers.
>  Recently I saw a video of the building (7) coming down and it fell exactly
>  the way controlled demolition does.
>  I've seen a couple come down in real life and it struck me how precise it
>  all seemed, that I immediately thought "that's a controlled demolition"
>  Many, many  other inconsistencies as well. Very strange.
>  
>  
>  regards
>  tallex
>  
>  


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Re: [Biofuel] was.. WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[Paul S Cantrell]

It most certainly did not fall like a controlled demolition.  It didn't even completely fall flat into its footprint.  It fell towards the South and nearly split in two as it fell.  The remains had to be demolished.  It is illogical to point to demolition videos of concrete reinforced steel buildings and compare to WTC7, as it was a steel tube in tube design over an existing 5 story building.
Pay special attention to Chapter 5:http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtcreport.htm
The damage to the southwest corner was as a result of WTC1 falling, but it was ultimately caused as the HUGE diesel fuel fire that was not fought for 7 hours.  It fell from the inside, as you can see, the east penthouse fell into the building, then the west penthouse fell into the building, then you can see a stress point, or kink develop up the building and it starts to fall inward to the ground.
Here is a good website of debunking:http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htmPeople see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear...People believe what they want to believe.
On 9/21/06, AltEnergyNetwork <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I've been following this thread and there certainly seems to be many things that don't add up.
Until recently I was under the impression that building seven came down as a result of the falling towers.Recently I saw a video of the building (7) coming down and it fell exactly the way controlled demolition does.
I've seen a couple come down in real life and it struck me how precise it all seemed, that I immediately thought "that's a controlled demolition"Many, many  other inconsistencies as well. Very strange.
regardstallex-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switchThe genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves, only complicated stupid moves which make us wonder at the possibility that there may be something to them which we are missing. - Gamal Abdel Nasser
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Re: [Biofuel] Science

[D. Mindock]

Joe,
At
http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=17367&ch=nanotech
 they discuss using 
cerium oxide, not aluminum, in diesel fuel.
I do worry about nano sized 
particles getting out into the air we breathe. If cerium
or aluminum are catalysts that means they 
are not burnt and come out the exhaust, right?
Any comments.
Peace, D. 
Mindock

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 10:31 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Science
  I meant about colloidal fuels.JD. Mindock 
  wrote:
  


Joe didn't let the cat out of 
the bag. It was already out:
http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=14105&ch=nanotech&sc=&pg=1
We have never needed peace more 
than now. Bush's dumb cowboy antics are making the US
a heckava lot unsafer.  Rep. Dennis 
Kucinich wants to establish a Dept of Peace. It is an idea that 
needs
to become a reality soon.  I say 
take 50% of the military budget and get the DoP going.
Peace, D. 
Mindock   P.S. >From what I've read, nano sized particles are 
dangerous of and in themselves. The body doesn't know 
what to do with 
them.

  - 
  Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: 
  biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: 
  Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:16 AM
  Subject: 
  Re: [Biofuel] Science
  Hey Robert;That's a fun message but aren't you 
  using fiction to support your argument?  Uhhh fiction you 
  wrote!  Kewl.  I didn't know one could do this.  I'll 
  remember the technique next time we have our performance reviews or I get 
  pulled over by the cops for speeding.  LOL.Meanwhile.in 
  the REAL world..weapons work alarmingly well as tools of fear and 
  control. ( Let me say I wish everyone was nice enough that it was 
  uneccesary to resort to imposed controlmaybe one day we'll evolve to 
  that level I hope) A weapon as a deterrent? Of course.  As I have 
  said here before take a round table discussion, out of control with all 
  the examples of bad behaviour. Now put a loaded .45 in the hands of EACH 
  person at the table and see how quickly it gets quiet and downright 
  civilized!Why do bullies seldom have to actually beat the crap out 
  of someone?  Because one or two examples like that serve to underline 
  the threat and it is the fear of that implied threat which does the 
  bullies work.  Why does the US so desperately want to keep nukes out 
  of the hands of all the countries that don't have them? ( even though the 
  US has proven they aren't responsible enough to have them, having already 
  anihilated so many human beings with the loathesome device) It is the 
  bullies tool.  See how well it works.Getting back to the 
  science thread, the US navy is currently working on bombs using nano 
  aluminum as a high explosive which generate a shockwave similar to a nuke 
  but without the radiation. A clean nuke so to speak.  Lovely 
  eh?  (Don't ask me how I know this.) All the death and destruction 
  without the poison.( "well we ASSUME so")  Kind of the opposite idea 
  of the neutron bomb which leaves the structure and kills the life. 
  DuhI guess they figured out a city that's too hot to enter isn't much 
  of a prize.  But this way it's doublegood.  You level a city, 
  wipe out your foes, and then you reap the profits of rebuilding 
  everything. Or at least the elite members of your club do.(This is bitter 
  sarcasm in case you didn't get that)  To me this is scarier than 
  nukes because going back to the round table analogy, you might have some 
  sick bastard who is twisted enough and thinks he is fast enough to grab 
  his .45 and blow away everyone else at the table before anyone can get 
  him.  With that type of weapon it is conceivable, and there is no 
  blowback so to speak.  But to make the analogy work better as a model 
  for nukes you have to replace the .45 with hand grenades. Now nobody gets 
  out of the room alive. Nano bombs are very likely to be used for this 
  reason they are like big sicko .45s.Oh while I'm on the subject of 
  disclosing military nano science secrets, they are currently also 
  experimenting with colloidal jet fuels.  Adding nano metals to jet 
  fuel gives them something like an octane boost.  But they didn't ask 
  anyone if we mind them seeding the atmosphere with nano particles.  
  We are all part of the experiment now like it or not. Nice eh?  Oh 
  BTW can anyone out there help me?  I'm wondering what kind of filter 
  I would use to clean 20nm junk out of the environment.  Apparently 
  the scientists who hypothesized what a great fuel could be also assumed 
  the exhaust d

Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[dwoodard]

Well maybe, but I don't think that the stupidity lies where you seem to 
imply.

We know that years before the event PNAC wrote longingly of "a new
Pearl Harbor."

We know that for a long time Al Quaeda wanted to destroy the World
Trade Centre as the ultimate symbolic blow to its own Evil Empire.

Each of them knew what the other wanted. Two hearts beat with a single 
passionI doubt that many words were needed.

They may have disagreed about the ultimate consequences of an American 
seizure of Iraq. I'd say Osama was ahead on points there.

Remember Captain Ahab? "All my means are sane; my motives and objects 
mad."

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Thu, 21 Sep 2006, robert and benita rabello wrote:

> D. Mindock wrote:

[snip]
>
>Because the truth shows what a bunch of blithering idiots they
> really are!
>
[snip]
>
>It happened with government stupidity.

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[Biofuel] was.. WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[AltEnergyNetwork]

I've been following this thread and there certainly seems to be many things 
that don't add up.
Until recently I was under the impression that building seven came down as a 
result of the falling towers.
Recently I saw a video of the building (7) coming down and it fell exactly the 
way controlled demolition does.
I've seen a couple come down in real life and it struck me how precise it all 
seemed, that I immediately thought "that's a controlled demolition"
Many, many  other inconsistencies as well. Very strange. 


regards
tallex


>  ---Original Message---
>  From: D. Mindock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
>  Sent: 21 Sep '06 12:38
>  
>  Bldg 7 fell in the same controlled fashion even though of different
>  construction method.
>  It was hit by debris but not an airliner. Bldg 7 was not mentioned in the
>  9/11 commission
>  report. Why? It was a big building, 47 stories, loaded with FBI files on
>  Enron and other cases.
>  No steel framed building before or since 9/11 has ever fallen due to fire.
>  Some buildings
>  were ablaze for seventeen hours, still no failure.
>  If one looks at the totality of 9/11 and the numerous conflicts between the
>  official story
>  and the actual evidence, it is easily concluded that the government is lying
>  to the American
>  people. Remember too how fiercely the Bush regime fought the establishment
>  of the commission to
>  investigate 9/11. They do not want the truth to be told and much prefer
>  their own reality.
>  9/11 could not have happened without goverment complicity.
>  Peace, D. Mindock
>  
>  - Original Message -
>  From: "robert and benita rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  To: 
>  Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:38 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
>  
>  
>  > D. Mindock wrote:
>  >
>  >>Robert,
>  >>   The towers and bldg 7 are just part of a larger puzzle. You want to
>  >>believe the buildings all fell down the same exact way, go ahead.
>  >>
>  >
>  >They didn't fall in the exact same way, but the reasons they
>  > collapsed are similar.  I've explained this in another post.
>  >
>  >> But what of the numerous explosions throughout the buildings after they
>  >> were hit by the airliners and
>  >>before they fell?
>  >>
>  >Fire, ignited by the impact, spread rapidly through the building.
>  > Anything that could burn, did.  I've seen hillsides explode when ignited
>  > by fire.  I've seen fire move so fast that deer are engulfed in flames
>  > trying to flee.  Fire is unpredictable.  At the time, I was surprised
>  > the towers stayed up as long as they did.
>  >
>  >> What about the molten steel found in the basement?
>  >>
>  >
>  >There's a LOT of energy in the mass of material cascading 110 floors
>  > to the ground.  All of the friction, coupled with the heat of the fire
>  > itself, was insulated from dissipating and concentrated by the debris on
>  > top of it.  I've seen bits of charcoal still hot enough to glow buried
>  > in wood stove ash days after the last fire in the stove.  Molten steel
>  > in the basement of the WTC is not remarkable.
>  >
>  >> What about the puffs of smoke on the floor levels below the falling
>  >> floors above?
>  >>
>  >
>  >One of the buildings collapsed from the center first.  What you're
>  > observing in the photos is overpressure and debris escaping in a lateral
>  > direction from the force of overhead compression.
>  >
>  >> What about the very high temperatures recorded in the rubble, much higher
>  >> than jet fuel is
>  >>capable?
>  >>
>  >>
>  >
>  >Vigorously rub your hands together and you'll increase the
>  > temperature of your skin much higher than is normal, too.  The vast mass
>  > of material falling that distance will create tremendous friction.
>  >
>  >>Why did bldg 7 fall in the same manner as the towers even though its
>  >>construction was not the same as the towers?
>  >>
>  >
>  >The middle floors on building 7 were on fire for a long time.  Even
>  > the fire department realized they were going to lose that building and
>  > pulled their firefighters away.
>  >
>  >> Your Occam's Razor is being severely
>  >>overused.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >
>  >I don't think so.  The WTC collapse makes more sense to me than does
>  > the explanation for the Pentagon.
>  >
>  >>And the towers were a minor part of 9/11's strange occurances. What about
>  >>Able Danger? Why was this info ignored by the 9/11 Commission? Etc., etc.
>  >>You
>  >>need to look at the whole series of bizarre "dots" to get the whole
>  >>picture.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >
>  >There are MANY unanswered questions.  There are MANY pieces to the
>  > puzzle that don't fit.  I am unsatisfied with the "official" story of
>  > that day, but I don't have a problem understanding that fire from two
>  > fully loaded airliners brought down the WTC buildings.
>  >
>  > robert luis rabello
>  > "The Edge of Justice"
>  > 

[Biofuel] was...was.. Bring loaded firearms aboard

[AltEnergyNetwork]

I agree with Doug,
although many americans believe it is their inaliable right to carry a gun.
The u.s. murder rate is atrocious. You are something like 40 times more likely 
to be killed if you have a gun in your home, than if you didn't. That does not 
preclude the fact that law enforcement should have bigger more powerfull guns 
that the thugs. The problem these days is there are far too many young punks 
running around with guns.
Drive by shootings and gang killings hardly rate a mention in papers, yet in 
many countries like U.K, Canada, France and many others the death rate from 
firearm murders is a fraction of what it is in the U. S. Gun laws are much 
stricter and the result is much less slaughter.
There is simply no valid reason for somebody to be able to by a piece of 
equipment that can spray out 1500 rounds a second unless they want to rob a 
bank or do a drive by. I may get the NRA after me, but I don't give a damn. Gun 
violence in the U.S. got out of hand years ago, the statistics are there for 
all to see. What ever happened to a good fist and drag em out to settle an 
arguement.

When and if it comes to social collapse, or crime infested neighborhoods most 
know where to get access to one legally or otherwise, so if it was a matter of 
survival and protecting property it is completely legitamate but it has almost 
gotten to the point where, you better have one because everyone else does and 
that is a glaring clue to a sick society.

regards
tallex

>  ---Original Message---
>  From: Doug Foskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring loaded firearms aboard
>  Sent: 21 Sep '06 20:15
>  
>  I feel I really need to give the Australian Perspective on this:
>  I have to disagree with Chip.  I was raised around the premise that guns are
>  unnecessary.  I live in Australia where we have had gun removal legislation
>  for many years.  I have never felt the need to own a gun, & I do not know
>  anyone who actually does. Contrary to pro-gun propaganda, I
>  don't find myself roaming the streets looking for a confrontation. I have
>  prepared myself and never needed the tools to defend myself, my family and
>  others if need be.  I just hope that day will never come.  If it does, I
>  will be ready. I feel my family is much safer with neither our family, or any
>  of my neighbors owning firearms. (Some farmers own guns, but the guns are
>  usually small bore single shot, & must be stored in a lockable steel gun
>  case.)
>  I can honestly say I would be very worried that another passenger on a plane
>  (or really in any situation) was armed.
>  
>  regards Doug
>  PS: the Australian murder rate is a small fraction of the (percentage) rate 
> in
>  the US. It takes some guts to stab someone, or bash them. Anyone can pull a
>  trigger if they have access to a firearm.
>  
>  
>  
>  On Thursday 21 September 2006 5:11, Jason Schick wrote:
>  > I have to agree with Chip.  I was also raised around guns.  I live in
>  > Arizona where we have had concealed carry legislation for many years.  I
>  > have a permit and carry 95% of the time. Contrary to anti-gun propaganda, I
>  > don't find myself roaming the streets looking for a confrontation. I have
>  > prepared myself and given myself the tools to defend myself, my family and
>  > others if need be.  I just hope that day will never come.  If it does, I
>  > will be ready.
>  >
>  
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>  
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Re: [Biofuel] Bring loaded firearms aboard

[Doug Foskey]

I feel I really need to give the Australian Perspective on this:
 I have to disagree with Chip.  I was raised around the premise that guns are 
unnecessary.  I live in Australia where we have had gun removal legislation 
for many years.  I have never felt the need to own a gun, & I do not know 
anyone who actually does. Contrary to pro-gun propaganda, I
 don't find myself roaming the streets looking for a confrontation. I have
 prepared myself and never needed the tools to defend myself, my family and
 others if need be.  I just hope that day will never come.  If it does, I
 will be ready. I feel my family is much safer with neither our family, or any 
of my neighbors owning firearms. (Some farmers own guns, but the guns are 
usually small bore single shot, & must be stored in a lockable steel gun 
case.)
 I can honestly say I would be very worried that another passenger on a plane 
(or really in any situation) was armed.
 
regards Doug
PS: the Australian murder rate is a small fraction of the (percentage) rate in 
the US. It takes some guts to stab someone, or bash them. Anyone can pull a 
trigger if they have access to a firearm.



On Thursday 21 September 2006 5:11, Jason Schick wrote:
> I have to agree with Chip.  I was also raised around guns.  I live in
> Arizona where we have had concealed carry legislation for many years.  I
> have a permit and carry 95% of the time. Contrary to anti-gun propaganda, I
> don't find myself roaming the streets looking for a confrontation. I have
> prepared myself and given myself the tools to defend myself, my family and
> others if need be.  I just hope that day will never come.  If it does, I
> will be ready.
>

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Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[Joe Street]

Very good explanation and it makes good logical sense.  Thank you!

Joe

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Quoting Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

  
  
That's a very good point Kirk.  I wonder how do the civil engineers
deal with that bit?

  
  
 Impact happened, jet fuel went everywhere, igniting everything in  
its path. The jet fuel would have probably played no part in the  
heating after a few minutes, it would have been all burnt as it would  
have been vapourised, or very nearly, by the initial impact thus  
burning very quickly. The heat would have come from the office  
interiors.

 The design of the WTC towers is that the curtain wall, the  
outside wall, is not a major part of the load bearing structure. The  
majority of the compressive force was carried by the central, steel,  
core which would have had its fire protection shattered off it by the  
initial impact. This exposed steel, in conjunction with the office  
fire, which would have by now, 45 - 50 minutes after impact, spread  
right around the floor resulted in the failure of the core.

 Now we come to the curtain wall. The curtain walls job, besides  
holding the windows was to provide lateral and torsional stability.  
Basically the curtain wall was a big tube. Unlike the core around the  
impact point, the curtain wall was in contact with both the fire and  
the outside air hence would have had good heat flow thus not being  
anywhere near as hot as the core. This would mean that it lost nowhere  
near as much of its strength and in fact as you progressed away from  
the impact floors, its strength would have basically been unaffected.  
Due to this what the curtain wall did was basically provide a pipe  
that a big slug, the floors above, was forced down, rupturing the pipe  
as it went. Whilst the curtain wall could not provide enough strength  
to support the floors above, it could provide enough strength to  
provide a "righting" action to keep the floors above level.

 If memory serves me correctly, as the towers began to fall, they  
were "not level" but as they moved down they "leveled out". This is  
due to the interaction of the lower level core, floor trusses and  
curtain wall. providing a degree of resistance.

 This is how one Structural Engineer, me, would explain it. I  
think you would find that I'm not alone thinking like that as well.

 Regards,
 Andrew



  
  
Andrew?

Joe

Kirk McLoren wrote:



  To fall straight down means the failures supposedly caused by heat   
all happened at the same time. In the real world they lean  to the   
failed side and then forces cause more failures. It is a very   
tricky business making them fall straight down.
Kirk

*/Andrew Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
  

snip



 .
   I studied Civil Engineering with a major in Structures and
   Analysis not
   Medicine with a major in Psychiatry so I'll leave the reader to make
   their own judgements on the rest of this.

   Regards,
   Andrew Lowe B.Eng(Civil)


  

  
  



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Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[Joe Street]

Interesting! Polar bears have black skin.

J

Thomas Kelly wrote:

  Bob,
 I think you are right re: Vit A being toxic. It is definitely 
considered to be teratogenic.
 I thought it was Vitamin D in polar bear and walrus liver that was 
toxic.
 One explanation of the evolution of light skin color was based on the 
idea that sunlight converts precursors (ergosterol?) into Vit D 
(calciferol). Primitive diets were low in Vitamin D. The explanation 
suggests that as humans migrated, increasing latitudes > more skin 
covering + less direct sunlight. Those with lighter skin    greater 
absorption of appropriate wavelengths, and Vit D production. The exceptions 
to the northern environment and light skin story are those whose diet 
included the livers of polar bears and walruses  ...  rich in Vit D.
  I heard that you should not eat polar bear or walrus liver more than 
once a month. Personally, I'm trying to give it up entirely.
   Tom

P.S.  I meant no disrespect re:  "Howdy". I think it is more personal than 
"Hello". I wish it flowed as naturally from my mouth as it does from my 
keyboard.
   Howdy seems to be short for "How do you do?"
What does "Hello" mean?


- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt


  
  
D. Mindock wrote:


  There have been a considerable number of studies on herbs. It is a myth 
that
herbs haven't
been studied. BTW, an herb is any plant that has
special properties. A carrot might be called an herb since it helps the
eyes.
  


your example is proving one of my points.  you cant necessarily trust
traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is
vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic
at higher concentrations.  There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear
liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen
you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as
halibut.

http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/carrots.asp

Claim:   Eating carrots results in improved vision.

Status:   False.


your example is proving one of my points.  you cant necessarily trust
traditional wisdom. Further confounding things is that not only is
vitamin A essential in small amounts, it is both toxic and teratogenic
at higher concentrations.  There is enough Vit. A in a polar bear
liver to kill a person, and there are documented cases of fishermen
you became violently ill from consuming certain fish livers such as
halibut.

If thing were so simple as natural is safe and good and synthetic is
bad...

 Strawberries slow


  down cancer.
  

I.E., they have medicinal properties. Big Pharma will study an


  herb to pick out those chemicals that have the properties they're looking
for. E.g., Cat's Claw (graviola is another) is believed to have 
anti-cancer
properties. So a drug company will look for what they believe is the
"active" ingredient and find the chemical analogue.
  

I am not well versed in chemical patent law but I think you are
oversimplifying here.  Generally the reason companies look for analogs
is to find better efficacy, lowered side effects,  simpler structures
which lend themselves to production, or any combination thereof.


 Merely extracting the


  active ingredient will not allow the patenting of it. But the man-made
analogue of it will. So they test the analogue and then submit it to the 
FDA
for its test. 200 million dollars is the figure
I have heard that this test costs. So, the ability to get a patent on a
synthetic analogue is what gives Big Pharma
the leverage to make billions on just one new drug. The markup on a drug 
is
sometimes as high as
50,000%, making drug manufacturing obscenely lucrative. The ones that 
bomb,
like Vioxx, are just the
cost of doing business. With the huge markups and huge profits comes
political power, unfortunately for us
all.
  

no argument there



  Peace, D. Mindock


- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt


  
  
Hey Bob;

Again, follow the money.  Where is the funding going to come from to
test the efficacy of something anyone can grow and pick themselves.
Drug companies are loathe to spend a dime on any testing unless they are
forced to do so by the regulating bodies. They sure as hell aren't going
to waste that dime on something they can't control or sell.

Joe

bob allen wrote:

snip



  The
problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to no
proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I not saying they
don't work, I am just saying that scientific evidence for efficacy is
lacking.


  
  

Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[Thomas Kelly]

Kirk, Bob, Terry,
 
 I enetered this discussion admtting "I don't 
know."
Now I still don't 
know and I'm confused. I always believed that Vitamin A is fat soluble  ... 
hence it is found in fish oil and can be stored (in the liver). 
    It seems that there is a class of compounds that 
are  referred to as Vitamin A
    Vitamin A: 
 preformed or provitamin A caretenoids such as alpha and beta-carotene. 
Then there's retinol, retinal, retanoic acid.   ???
 
 Kirk, you 
mention B-Carotene specifically, so I looked it up
Beta Carotene: Molecular Formula: 
C40H56 
Insoluble in water.
 
"As for quack watch they are a bunch of 
quacks"
This, I take it is in reference to the 
New England Journal of Medicine Bob referred to
 
This, I 
believe, is an abstract of the study referred to:


  
  

  


  
 In the Alpha-Tocopherol 
Beta-Carotene (ATBC) 
Cancer Prevention Study, more 
than 29,000 men who 
regularly smoked cigarettes 
were randomized to receive
 20 mg beta-carotene 
alone, 50 mg alpha-tocopherol 
alone, supplements of both, 
or a placebo for 5 to 8 
years. Incidence of lung 
cancer was 18% higher among 
men who took the 
beta-carotene supplement. Eight 
percent more men in this 
group died, as compared 
to those receiving other 
treatments or placebo 
Albanes D, Heinonen OP, 
Taylor PR, Virtamo J, 
Edwards BK, Rautalahti M, 
Hartman AM, 
Palmgren J, Freedman LS, 
Haapakoski J, 
Barrett MJ, Pietinen P, 
Malila N, Tala E, 
Lippo K, Salomaa ER, Tangrea 
JA, Teppo L, 
Askin FB, Taskinen E, Erozan 
Y, Greenwald P, 
Huttunen JK. Alpha-tocopherol 
and beta-carotene 
supplement and lung cancer 
incidence in the 
alpha-tocopherol, 
beta-carotene cancer prevention 
study: Effects of base-line 
characteristics and study 
compliance. J Natl Cancer 
Inst 1996;88:1560-70..
 
 Similar results were 
seen in the Carotene and 
Retinol Efficacy Trial 
(CARET), a lung cancer 
chemoprevention study that 
provided subjects 
with supplements of 30 mg 
beta-carotene and 
25,000 IU retinyl palmitate 
(a form of vitamin A) 
or a placebo. This study was 
stopped after 
researchers discovered that 
subjects receiving
 beta-carotene had a 46% 
higher risk of dying
 from lung cancer.
Redlich CA, Blaner WS, Van 
Bennekum AM, 
Chung JS, Clever SL, Holm CT, 
Cullen MR.
 Effect of 
supplementation with beta-carotene and 
vitamin A on lung nutrient 
levels. 
Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers 
Prev 1998;7:211-14. 
 
"Quacks"?  If you say so.
 
It 
doesn't surprise me that high doses of a 
nutrient that promotes cell division would not be 
something we would want to give to cancer patients.
 
    I have a friend who told me: "Food is 
good, especially 
when 
you're hungry. It comes in different colors and flavors
too."  Maybe it's the precautionary principle that has 
me 
going 
with good food (maybe before long I'll add an herb 
or 
two?) over supplements, and (hopefully) 
pharmaceuticals.
 
  
Good Health to you all,
  
Tom


 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kirk 
  McLoren 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:58 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan 
  salt
  
  No - the beta carotene is water soluble. The premise is the body wont 
  make a toxic level of vitamin A from it.
  As for quack watch they are a bunch of quacks. Good god Bob what do you 
  expect a bunch of allopaths to say about non allopathic medicine? It will be a 
  cold day in hell when they give an unprejudiced report. Our metasticised 
  cancer cure rate is no better than before -- after 30 years of "war on cancer" 
  The only improvement the allopaths have is earlier  detection. And 
  we are to bend our knee and kiss their ring? I think not.
   
  As for non Harvard data base modalities the cesium chloride mouse study 
  was in

Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[robert and benita rabello]

D. Mindock wrote:

>Bldg 7 fell in the same controlled fashion even though of different 
>construction method.
>  
>

You're going to believe what you wish to believe, despite the 
physical evidence.

>It was hit by debris but not an airliner. Bldg 7 was not mentioned in the 
>9/11 commission
>report. Why? It was a big building, 47 stories, loaded with FBI files on 
>Enron and other cases.
>  
>

So?  You're implying that the Bush administration officials had that 
building wired for demolition to coincide with the collapse of the WTC 
towers.  That suggests a degree of control from a bunch of incompetents 
that we've never actually witnessed.

>No steel framed building before or since 9/11 has ever fallen due to fire. 
>  
>

And no other buildings have been deliberately rammed with airliners 
filled with jet fuel, either.  This is a non-point.

>Some buildings
>were ablaze for seventeen hours, still no failure.
>  
>

But not rammed at high speed by jet liners full of fuel.

>If one looks at the totality of 9/11 and the numerous conflicts between the 
>official story
>and the actual evidence, it is easily concluded that the government is lying 
>to the American
>people.
>

Oh, I agree.  They're lying about the warning signals.  They're 
lying about the actions they DIDN'T take to protect the country, and 
they've used the attack as a pretext to promote an evil, political agenda.

> Remember too how fiercely the Bush regime fought the establishment 
>of the commission to
>investigate 9/11. They do not want the truth to be told and much prefer 
>their own reality.
>  
>

Because the truth shows what a bunch of blithering idiots they 
really are!

>9/11 could not have happened without goverment complicity.
>  
>

It happened with government stupidity.

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/


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Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[M&K DuPree]

Hi Bob and List..."What we are searching 
with...we are searching for."  I don't know who said this or what the heck 
the sayer had in mind...but somehow it seems appropriate to this thread.  
Mike DuPree
- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:54 
AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan 
salt
> Terry Dyck wrote:>> Hi 
Bob,>> >> You are streching to find extreme examples from 
very diferent cultures.  I >> never consider animal parts to be a 
herb.  Don't herbs have to be part of >> the botanical family? It 
is true that some parts of a few plants are >> poisiness.  The 
leaves of rhubard for an example.  The red stems of rhubard, >> 
however, are very nutritious.  Herbs are basically plant foods and they are 
>> very healthy. Herbs have been used for thousands of years.  
Many people over >> those years have many testamonies of good results 
with using herbs.  Is this >> not good science?>> 
> > > >  no it is not.> > 
> >> Terry Dyck>> >> >>> From: 
bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan 
salt>>> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:26:56 
-0500>> Joe Street wrote: Hey 
Bob; Again, follow the money.  
Where is the funding going to come from to test the efficacy 
of something anyone can grow and pick themselves. Drug 
companies are loathe to spend a dime on any testing unless they 
are forced to do so by the regulating bodies. They sure as 
hell aren't going to waste that dime on something they can't 
control or sell.>> I totally agree, Joe.  But 
that still doesn't answer the question>>> about the true efficacy 
of numerous agents.   For instance, there has>>> been 
a  rash of poaching black bears in the Ozarks.  The carcases 
are>>> found sans gal bladders.  Why, because many, many years 
of tradition>>> in some cultures tells them that consuming the bear 
gal bladder makes>>> you a more manly 
man.>> That same argument is used for efficacy of 
tiger's penises and>>> numerous herbs.  How do you tell what 
is real and what is not?  it is>>> a very simple question with 
no simple answers.>> 
Joe bob allen 
wrote: 
snip> The> 
problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to 
no> proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I 
not saying they> don't work, I am just saying that 
scientific evidence for efficacy is> 
lacking.>> 
snip 
___ Biofuel 
mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to 
Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the 
combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>> 
messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>> 
-->>> 
-->>> 
Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob>>> 
-->>> 
->>> 
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest 
exercises>>> in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a 
superior moral>>> justification for selfishness  
JKG>>> 
> 
___>>> Biofuel mailing 
list>>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>> Biofuel at Journey to 
Forever:>>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>> Search the combined 
Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>> 
messages):>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> >> >> 
>> ___>> Biofuel 
mailing list>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>> >> Biofuel at Journey to 
Forever:>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>> >> Search the combined Biofuel 
and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>> >> >> >> 
> > > -- > 
--> Bob 
Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob> 
--> 
-> The 
modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises> in moral 
philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral> justification for 
selfishness  JKG> 
 > 
> > ___> 
Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@su

Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> You are streching to find extreme examples from very diferent cultures.  I 
> never consider animal parts to be a herb.  Don't herbs have to be part of 
> the botanical family? It is true that some parts of a few plants are 
> poisiness.  The leaves of rhubard for an example.  The red stems of rhubard, 
> however, are very nutritious.  Herbs are basically plant foods and they are 
> very healthy. Herbs have been used for thousands of years.  Many people over 
> those years have many testamonies of good results with using herbs.  Is this 
> not good science?
> 



  no it is not.



> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt
>> Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:26:56 -0500
>>
>> Joe Street wrote:
>>> Hey Bob;
>>>
>>> Again, follow the money.  Where is the funding going to come from to
>>> test the efficacy of something anyone can grow and pick themselves.
>>> Drug companies are loathe to spend a dime on any testing unless they are
>>> forced to do so by the regulating bodies. They sure as hell aren't going
>>> to waste that dime on something they can't control or sell.
>>
>> I totally agree, Joe.  But that still doesn't answer the question
>> about the true efficacy of numerous agents.   For instance, there has
>> been a  rash of poaching black bears in the Ozarks.  The carcases are
>> found sans gal bladders.  Why, because many, many years of tradition
>> in some cultures tells them that consuming the bear gal bladder makes
>> you a more manly man.
>>
>> That same argument is used for efficacy of tiger's penises and
>> numerous herbs.  How do you tell what is real and what is not?  it is
>> a very simple question with no simple answers.
>>
>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> bob allen wrote:
>>>
>>> snip
>>>
 The
 problem with herbs is, as I have said before, there is little to no
 proof of efficacy for the vast majority of them. I not saying they
 don't work, I am just saying that scientific evidence for efficacy is
 lacking.


>>> snip
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
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>>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>>
>>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>> messages):
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
>> --
>> -
>> The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
>> in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
>> justification for selfishness  JKG
>> 
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
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>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
--
Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
--
-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness  JKG
 


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Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[D. Mindock]

Bldg 7 fell in the same controlled fashion even though of different 
construction method.
It was hit by debris but not an airliner. Bldg 7 was not mentioned in the 
9/11 commission
report. Why? It was a big building, 47 stories, loaded with FBI files on 
Enron and other cases.
No steel framed building before or since 9/11 has ever fallen due to fire. 
Some buildings
were ablaze for seventeen hours, still no failure.
If one looks at the totality of 9/11 and the numerous conflicts between the 
official story
and the actual evidence, it is easily concluded that the government is lying 
to the American
people. Remember too how fiercely the Bush regime fought the establishment 
of the commission to
investigate 9/11. They do not want the truth to be told and much prefer 
their own reality.
9/11 could not have happened without goverment complicity.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: "robert and benita rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11


> D. Mindock wrote:
>
>>Robert,
>>   The towers and bldg 7 are just part of a larger puzzle. You want to
>>believe the buildings all fell down the same exact way, go ahead.
>>
>
>They didn't fall in the exact same way, but the reasons they
> collapsed are similar.  I've explained this in another post.
>
>> But what of the numerous explosions throughout the buildings after they 
>> were hit by the airliners and
>>before they fell?
>>
>Fire, ignited by the impact, spread rapidly through the building.
> Anything that could burn, did.  I've seen hillsides explode when ignited
> by fire.  I've seen fire move so fast that deer are engulfed in flames
> trying to flee.  Fire is unpredictable.  At the time, I was surprised
> the towers stayed up as long as they did.
>
>> What about the molten steel found in the basement?
>>
>
>There's a LOT of energy in the mass of material cascading 110 floors
> to the ground.  All of the friction, coupled with the heat of the fire
> itself, was insulated from dissipating and concentrated by the debris on
> top of it.  I've seen bits of charcoal still hot enough to glow buried
> in wood stove ash days after the last fire in the stove.  Molten steel
> in the basement of the WTC is not remarkable.
>
>> What about the puffs of smoke on the floor levels below the falling 
>> floors above?
>>
>
>One of the buildings collapsed from the center first.  What you're
> observing in the photos is overpressure and debris escaping in a lateral
> direction from the force of overhead compression.
>
>> What about the very high temperatures recorded in the rubble, much higher 
>> than jet fuel is
>>capable?
>>
>>
>
>Vigorously rub your hands together and you'll increase the
> temperature of your skin much higher than is normal, too.  The vast mass
> of material falling that distance will create tremendous friction.
>
>>Why did bldg 7 fall in the same manner as the towers even though its
>>construction was not the same as the towers?
>>
>
>The middle floors on building 7 were on fire for a long time.  Even
> the fire department realized they were going to lose that building and
> pulled their firefighters away.
>
>> Your Occam's Razor is being severely
>>overused.
>>
>>
>
>I don't think so.  The WTC collapse makes more sense to me than does
> the explanation for the Pentagon.
>
>>And the towers were a minor part of 9/11's strange occurances. What about
>>Able Danger? Why was this info ignored by the 9/11 Commission? Etc., etc. 
>>You
>>need to look at the whole series of bizarre "dots" to get the whole 
>>picture.
>>
>>
>
>There are MANY unanswered questions.  There are MANY pieces to the
> puzzle that don't fit.  I am unsatisfied with the "official" story of
> that day, but I don't have a problem understanding that fire from two
> fully loaded airliners brought down the WTC buildings.
>
> robert luis rabello
> "The Edge of Justice"
> Adventure for Your Mind
> http://www.newadventure.ca
>
> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>
>
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>
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>
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> messages):
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>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[bob allen]

Kirk McLoren wrote:
> No - the beta carotene is water soluble.

want to bet?  I guess you wouldn't trust me, but regardless, I worked 
with the stuff last spring, I had a student examine the UV spectra of 
beta carotene (dissolved in benzene) vs the spectrum of red palm oil. 
the are essentially identical.  the point is I know that the stuff 
water insoluble.  Just look at the chemical structure- its a 
hydrocarbon.

  BETA-CAROTENE
SOLUBILITY IN WATER, insoluble. pH. VAPOR DENSITY. REFRACTIVE INDEX 
... One molecule of beta-carotene splits into two molecules of vitamin 
A and thus ...
www.chemicalland21.com/lifescience/foco/BETA-CAROTENE.htm - 65k - 
Cached - Similar pages


now you find me a citation where it says the stuff is water soluble.



  The premise is the body wont
> make a toxic level of vitamin A from it.
> As for quack watch they are a bunch of quacks. Good god Bob what do you 
> expect a bunch of allopaths to say about non allopathic medicine? 

ah yes, allopathy, otherwise known as science-based medicine vs 
homeopathy, otherwise known as nonsense.


It
> will be a cold day in hell when they give an unprejudiced report. Our 
> metasticised cancer cure rate is no better than before -- after 30 years 
> of "war on cancer" The only improvement the allopaths have is earlier 
>  detection.

do you have a reference for that statistic?  Is it from the same 
source that informed you about the solubility of beta carotene? I do 
know that for most cancers both morbidity and mortality are both down 
over the last 30 yrs.

see the rather extensive files available at

http://www.cancer.gov/statistics/

  And we are to bend our knee and kiss their ring? I think not.

just you kirk, not me. ;->

>  
> As for non Harvard data base modalities the cesium chloride mouse study 
> was interesting yet all we see is is the American Cancer Society warning 
> about toxicity.

  you lost me here, direct me to a reference to the CsCl study



The master poisoners - and that is what chemotherapy

um, this would be ad hominem by proxy attack?
is
> - discourage cesium because the ld50 is 160 grams or thereabouts.

the simplest probe of toxicity is LD50 usually expressed as mass/unit 
body wt.  You gave me a number that is undefined. From the literature 
one finds:

Oral rat LD50: 2004 mg/kg. Oral mouse LD50: 2306 mg/kg. Investigated 
as a mutagen and reproductive effector.



> I'm curious Bob what the ld50 for NaCl is. 

  ORL-RAT LD50 3000 mg kg-1 this stuff is really easy to get kirk, I 
send my students to the literature every day for toxicological data



I think 160 grams of table
> salt could be quite an ordeal.
> So the ACS hype is just that perhaps. The university study claimed 
> remission in 97% of the mice if I recall correctly. So where is the 
> double blind study?
>  
> LEF hosts the federal paper.



  Not their work - and the study was vitamin
> A not beta carotene.
> LEF is a good resource. They have a lot of interesting papers.
>  
> Kirk
> 
> */bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> 
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>  > Actually the carrot contains beta carotene
> 
> yes of course, and it is what makes "red palm oil" red.
> 
> 
> which is used in the body to
>  > make vitamin A. It is water soluble
> 
> no kirk, not that it matters here but it is one of the fat soluble
> vitamins. It is stored in the liver of many animals.
> 
> 
> and Lorraine Day MD took enough to
>  > turn herself orange. She believed it helped her overcome breast
> cancer.
> 
> actually there is no evidence that it was cancer. from quackwatch.com
> 
> Lorraine Day, M.D., would like you to believe that she has discovered
> the answer to cancer and that her experience as a patient qualifies
> her to give advice about cancer. She warns against trusting the
> medical profession and claims that all drugs can cause cancer. Her
> videotapes state (falsely) that standard cancer treatment has never
> cured anyone and that nobody should undergo chemotherapy and radiation
> for any cancer. She speaks eloquently and from the heart, but her
> tapes are filled with factual errors and far-fetched claims. I believe
> that her advice is untrustworthy and dangerous to the extent that it
> steers people away from effective treatment.
> 
> The centerpiece of Day's story is that she cured herself of a
> grapefruit-sized lump that she says was a recurrence of her breast
> cancer. But she has refused to disclose any medical records that would
> confirm that the mass was cancer (rather than a cyst)
> 
> 
>  > The use of 100,000 units of A a day recovered 30% of lost lung
> function
>  > in a Federal study (patients had emphysema)
> 
>  > see lef.org for a copy of the paper.
> 
> lef.org better update their files before they hurt someone. One study
> employing beta carotene(20 

Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[Logan vilas]

Hey Terry, 

The first thing I said is there is a ton of very suspicious
unanswered questions, but I was just saying I can understand how the
building would have gotten hot enough to have molten steel. A lot of shit
happened that day that no one wants to be let out. Right down to the people
who were in the tower steeling money from their businesses and disappearing
forever. The money was thought to be incinerated or lost in the rubble, and
the same for the people. 


Logan Vilas

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Dyck
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 1:08 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

Hi Logan,

What about the building that was not hit by a jet, the building that housed 
all of the investigative people who were close to exposing a stock market 
cover up, it fell to the ground just like the twin towers?

Terry Dyck


>From: "Logan vilas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
>Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 08:27:47 -0500
>
>
>D. Mindock,
>
>   I agree with you for the most part there are a ton of very
>suspicious unanswered questions. There are 2 things you say that I can
>understand and contradict. I don't know how hot the temps were recorded in
>the rubble. So you might prove me wrong, but with decent airflow and enough
>fuel anything can create very hot temps. I do metal casting I've been doing
>it for about 3 years now in my backyard. Look up the Dave gingery book
>series or even Lindsey books. When I started I used 1" thick fence boards
>cut into 4-6" x6" sections. 3 at a time in my firepot, with a blow drier
>feeding it air and that was enough heat to melt steel reliably. It took
>about 1/2 hour and 9-12 pieces of wood to melt 12LB's of steel to a
>reasonable casting tempeture. 2700F or better.
>
>   The towers would have had huge ventilation shafts running up and
>down, it also had 8 elevator shafts if I remember right. A plane holds
>thousands of gallons of fuel, then the building it crashed into was at 
>least
>half burnable material between desks, paper, and all the other stuff 
>inside.
>That stuff is spread out with a large room for airflow around it causing it
>to burn fast and extremely hot. Heat rises up those shafts and it sucks air
>into the bottom of the fire and in the side that the plane entered. The 
>best
>places to give the fire fuel. Those temps could have easily been 3000F or
>higher. Then even if the temps were not that high. Look at house fires. The
>temp of wood on fire is about 300f. But once it has that heat input for 
>long
>enough the room will reach temps of 1200f making the room flash over and
>everything in it burns. The World Trade Center towers would have kept that
>temp in as the fires sucked in air. The floors above the fire would have
>gradually taken in BTU's with out anything to cool them off until the metal
>melted.
>
>   In the end with a big pile of rubble you can speculate what
>happened, but you just won't know unless you were there and saw it happen
>yourself. You also have to ask. If you don't believe what they're telling
>you about how it fell, or secondary explosions, then why do you even 
>believe
>them when they say there's molten metal in the rubble or when they tell you
>how high the rubble temps were. For that matter Why do you believe that
>planes hit them at all.
>
>Logan Vilas
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Mindock
>Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 3:27 AM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
>
>Robert,
>The towers and bldg 7 are just part of a larger puzzle. You want to
>believe the
>buildings all fell down the same exact way, go ahead. But what of the
>numerous
>explosions throughout the buildings after they were hit by the airliners 
>and
>
>before
>they fell? What about the molten steel found in the basement? What about 
>the
>puffs of smoke on the floor levels below the falling floors above? What
>about the
>very high temperatures recorded in the rubble, much higher than jet fuel is
>capable?
>Why did bldg 7 fall in the same manner as the towers even though its
>construction
>was not the same as the towers? Your Occam's Razor is being severely
>overused.
>And the towers were a minor part of 9/11's strange occurances. What about
>Able
>Danger? Why was this info ignored by the 9/11 Commission? Etc., etc. You
>need
>to look at the whole series of bizarre "dots" to get the whole picture.
>Peace, D. Mindock
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "robert and benita rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 7:43 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
>
>
> > Kirk McLoren wrote:
> >
> >> To fall straight down means the failures supposedly caused by heat all
> 

Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[Logan vilas]

I know nothing about buildings like that, most of my work involved things
going down into the water, not up. But thanks for the heads up.

Logan Vilas

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 7:06 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

Quoting Logan vilas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> It's amazing that the Weight of the airplane alone was enough to not cause
> the building to collapse in my opinion.

Without going into the nity grity of structural design, dead load,  
live load, second order effect, dynamics, load factoring, material  
capacity reduction etc etc, take my word for it, if the fire hadn't  
happened, the building would have hardly noticed the impact. Repairs  
would have taken 6 months and then you would probably not even know  
the impact had happened.

 Andrew

>
> Logan Vilas
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of robert and
benita
> rabello
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 3:35 PM
> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11
>
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>
[snip]


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[Biofuel] meanwhile, in the US

[Mike Weaver]

"Willie Nelson and the boys were on the road, and they stopped them and 
found a pound and a half of marijuana. bin Laden is still loose, but we 
got Willie Nelson." --David Letterman

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Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[Andrew Lowe]

Tom Irwin wrote:
> Hi Joe and All,
> 
> I really don´t want to believe this. That´s part of the problem. But
> the buildings fell unusually fast, from film and stopwatch just about
> at freefall speeds. I would have thought if most of the structural
> steel was okay, except for the areas where the fires were, wouldn´t
> they have slowed the descent? _
> 
[snip]

A valid point. I don't have any footage of the actual collapses so 
can't time it but you would have to bear in mind that, using very very 
rough, off the top of my head calculations, each floors concrete along, 
excluding services, floor trusses, fittings, and the central core weighs 
in at at least 1500 tonnes. Can't remember what floors the impacts were 
on but allow 20 floors to be above the impact point. Lets add 500t for 
the fittings etc, so we have 2000t/floor and 20 floors, say 40,000t. To 
put that into context think of a medium sized ship, 1000 semi trailer 
trucks, etc etc. Even with a slight movement, ie a small velocity, that 
sort of mass would become incredibly hard to stop and I would wager 
anything that no building could be built that could stop that hence as 
it dropped it picked up more and more speed until it was going quite fast.

Regards,
Andrew

p.s. This thread has been going on for a bit, is it time yet to invoke 
Goodwins law? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law   ;)



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Re: [Biofuel] Bring loaded firearms aboard

[Keith Addison]

Hello Jason

>I have to agree with Chip.

But Chip says this:

>Suffice to say, I am a whole lot /less/ ignorant of this
>very very large scale issue. I haven't yet been able to draw any
>defined conclusions from this. I do however, believe that informed
>rationality precludes either polar position on this issue.

And you say this:

>I was also raised around guns.  I live in
>Arizona where we have had concealed carry legislation for many years.  I
>have a permit and carry 95% of the time. Contrary to anti-gun propaganda, I
>don't find myself roaming the streets looking for a confrontation. I have
>prepared myself and given myself the tools to defend myself, my family and
>others if need be.  I just hope that day will never come.  If it does, I
>will be ready.

How can adopting a polar position (pro-guns) be agreeing with him?

The subject of guns in America has been thrashed out here several 
times before, there is quite a lot of material in the archives about 
it, I suggest you spend a little time there checking it out. It does 
not support polar positions. All "Contrary to anti-gun propaganda" 
really means is: "Here's a bit of pro-gun propaganda instead", IMHO. 
No, not saying you're lying, propaganda is not lies (though it can 
be), but facts or not it's coming from a polarised position.

Best

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner

 
 

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chip Mefford
>Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 10:38 AM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring loaded firearms aboard
>
>Perhaps it's because over my near-on 50 years, I've been around
>liguor and guns my whole life, and see no threat.
>
>Like many folks of my background and upbringing, I am a member of the
>so-called 'gun culture'. Perhaps I could be button-holed as a reticent
>gun nut. But I'm just not that much of a nut.
>
>In my short time in this life, I have done a lot of things. Amongst
>these things are having served active military duty and served as a
>law enforcement officer. I have had a *lot* of firearms training in
>my day, but even the military and law enforcement training hardly
>taught me anything I hadn't already known since the age of about 12
>thanks in great part to the civilian marksmanship program.
>
>All that said, for most of my life, I've heard background noise about
>the 'problem of small arms' and paid it little heed. I've seen ignorance
>in action (and I really don't mean that in a pejorative sense, but
>rather in a literal sense) and the ignorance that surrounds the issues
>inherent in the use of arms is too huge to measure. To this end, I
>decided there was a lot about the 'problem of small arms' that I just
>didn't get, that played deeply into my ignorance. So I got to work
>studying it on the heels of the paper put out by the WHO a number of
>years back. Suffice to say, I am a whole lot /less/ ignorant of this
>very very large scale issue. I haven't yet been able to draw any
>defined conclusions from this. I do however, believe that informed
>rationality precludes either polar position on this issue.


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Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Joe and All,
 
I really don´t want to believe this. That´s part of the problem. But the buildings fell unusually fast, from film and stopwatch just about at freefall speeds. I would have thought if most of the structural steel was okay, except for the areas where the fires were, wouldn´t they have slowed the descent? 


From: Joe Street [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 10:08:53 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WHAT REALLY HAPPENED ON SEPT 11That's a very good point Kirk.  I wonder how do the civil engineers deal with that bit?Andrew?JoeKirk McLoren wrote:

To fall straight down means the failures supposedly caused by heat all happened at the same time. In the real world they lean  to the failed side and then forces cause more failures. It is a very tricky business making them fall straight down.
KirkAndrew Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:snip

.I studied Civil Engineering with a major in Structures and Analysis not Medicine with a major in Psychiatry so I'll leave the reader to make their own judgements on the rest of this.Regards,Andrew Lowe B.Eng(Civil)  


 
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