Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
Hi Ken ; First, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the varieties you speak of are patentable under existing laws. Second, nobody is prevented from developing anything they want by selective breeding. They should just not be able to patent it. And third, ask a farmer who has selectivly developed his own strain only to have it infected by a patented GMO (and necessarily destroyed) if there should be patent protection for life forms. BR Peter G. Thailand --- Ken Riznyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about people who develop new varieties the old fashioned way through selective breeding. Granted some advances are not to our liking such as tomatoes that have a longer shelf life and don't bruise easily but taste like cardboard and almonds that are bred to be smaller so they fit on the candy bars that keep on shrinking, but there are important advances too. Ken - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2006 10:22:18 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi All ; You know, you cannot patent a perpetual motion machine of any kind. Why couldn't we do the same for life forms? In other words, let's say the patent office announced that in 3 years, any and all life forms cannot be patented. There would be a rush to complete existing work, and then the GMO problem would be over. Very little effect on anyone. Existing patents expire in 17 years. Problem solved. If someone asks how they can protect their investment, the answer is then don't invest. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business (http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
Peter, Here's the quote from the US gov patent office website: Plant Patents The law also provides for the granting of a patent to anyone who has invented or discovered and asexually reproduced any distinct and new variety of plant, including cultivated sports, mutants, hybrids, and newly found seedlings, other than a tuber-propagated plant or a plant found in an uncultivated state. Asexually propagated plants are those that are reproduced by means other than from seeds, such as by the rooting of cuttings, by layering, budding, grafting, inarching, etc. - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 3:17:12 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi Ken ; First, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the varieties you speak of are patentable under existing laws. Second, nobody is prevented from developing anything they want by selective breeding. They should just not be able to patent it. And third, ask a farmer who has selectivly developed his own strain only to have it infected by a patented GMO (and necessarily destroyed) if there should be patent protection for life forms. BR Peter G. Thailand --- Ken Riznyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What about people who develop new varieties the old fashioned way through selective breeding. Granted some advances are not to our liking such as tomatoes that have a longer shelf life and don't bruise easily but taste like cardboard and almonds that are bred to be smaller so they fit on the candy bars that keep on shrinking, but there are important advances too. Ken - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2006 10:22:18 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi All ; You know, you cannot patent a perpetual motion machine of any kind. Why couldn't we do the same for life forms? In other words, let's say the patent office announced that in 3 years, any and all life forms cannot be patented. There would be a rush to complete existing work, and then the GMO problem would be over. Very little effect on anyone. Existing patents expire in 17 years. Problem solved. If someone asks how they can protect their investment, the answer is then don't invest. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business (http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
Hi Ken ; This is exactly what should be changed. This is what is creating the GMO problem. Patent protection for inventions, yes. They stay on your land or in your house and don't affect me if I don't want them. Patent protection for life forms which spread uncontrollably from your field to mine, thus requiring payment of patent licensing fees, no. Millions of people develope strains by selective breeding and never bother to apply for patents. I see no reason why these people would not continue to do so if the patent law was changed. There would be no shortage of improved plants. If we cannot agree on this list that GMO's are a problem and will cause the death of millions, how can the world ever agree? Also, you haven't addressed my second and third points. BR Peter G. --- Ken Riznyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, Here's the quote from the US gov patent office website: Plant Patents The law also provides for the granting of a patent to anyone who has invented or discovered and asexually reproduced any distinct and new variety of plant, including cultivated sports, mutants, hybrids, and newly found seedlings, other than a tuber-propagated plant or a plant found in an uncultivated state. Asexually propagated plants are those that are reproduced by means other than from seeds, such as by the rooting of cuttings, by layering, budding, grafting, inarching, etc. - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 3:17:12 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi Ken ; First, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the varieties you speak of are patentable under existing laws. Second, nobody is prevented from developing anything they want by selective breeding. They should just not be able to patent it. And third, ask a farmer who has selectivly developed his own strain only to have it infected by a patented GMO (and necessarily destroyed) if there should be patent protection for life forms. BR Peter G. Thailand Sponsored Link Try Netflix today! With plans starting at only $5.99 a month what are you waiting for? http://www.netflix.com/Signup?mqso=80010030 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] I need some advice
Hi Ken; The obvious answer is that if you make fuel you will be able to put it in the car to go buy the parts you need to finish the reactor! ;) Good luck Joe Ken Dunn wrote: I have stumbled on about 200 gallons of WVO in the ~5 gallon containers that it came in. That part is great! I'll be picking it up this weekend. Now, the tricky part - in the spring I broke my ankle while skateboarding. That put an immediate halt to my processor development. Its probably 80% completed but, I don't even really remember what I was working on last. Now the even trickier part - my wife is not likely to be too patient with me having 50 - 5 gallon containers in the garage for too long. Now, I have 2 empty 55 gallon drums that I could put about half of it in but, I'm not sure if I want to tie those up for that purpose. Ok, so the question here is, do I work on the reactor to process the oil or do I just get down to the knitty gritty and make biodiesel? I could use the 5 gallon containers that the oil is in and just use the simple bucket method to get the job done. I suppose I feel a bit more confident in the simple method (probably because I have less waste if something goes wrong). I guess that I should add that at this point, I've only ever done test batches. I haven't done anymore that a gallon at a time. What do you think? I hope everyone is doing well! Take care, Ken Lancaster County, PA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
I don't really want to get into an extended argument about something that is somewhat off-topic but I will say this: If someone developed a genetically modified plant that would grow well in marginal areas and produced high quality vegetable oil, that could be easily extracted, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Or for that matter, if someone developed a plant that grew well in marginal areas and contained high-quality protein, low glycemic carbohydrates, and many needed trace nutrients, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? I too have concerns about GMO's. As the process evolves and becomes easier, sooner or later, someone somewhere is going to make a serious mistake, but denying patent protection is an overly simplistic suggestion that will not solve the problem. Large companies can still make lots of money with GMO's even if they couldn't be patented, it would just cut into their profits, a little. The fact that some people have developed plant varieties and have not patented them is not an argument to do away with plant patents. Just as the fact that some people have developed traditional inventions (in fact some people on this list and JTF) and never bother to patent them is not an argument to do away with the patent office completely. I don't like the fact that large corporations use bullying tactics, the WTO or trade agreements to rape the little guy in their pursuit of the almighty dollar, so what else is new? FYI Monsanto lost its ridiculous case, when it sued a farmer when their genetically modified wheat spread uncontrollably to his fields. Ken - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 6:21:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi Ken ; This is exactly what should be changed. This is what is creating the GMO problem. Patent protection for inventions, yes. They stay on your land or in your house and don't affect me if I don't want them. Patent protection for life forms which spread uncontrollably from your field to mine, thus requiring payment of patent licensing fees, no. Millions of people develope strains by selective breeding and never bother to apply for patents. I see no reason why these people would not continue to do so if the patent law was changed. There would be no shortage of improved plants. If we cannot agree on this list that GMO's are a problem and will cause the death of millions, how can the world ever agree? Also, you haven't addressed my second and third points. BR Peter G. --- Ken Riznyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, Here's the quote from the US gov patent office website: Plant Patents The law also provides for the granting of a patent to anyone who has invented or discovered and asexually reproduced any distinct and new variety of plant, including cultivated sports, mutants, hybrids, and newly found seedlings, other than a tuber-propagated plant or a plant found in an uncultivated state. Asexually propagated plants are those that are reproduced by means other than from seeds, such as by the rooting of cuttings, by layering, budding, grafting, inarching, etc. - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 3:17:12 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi Ken ; First, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the varieties you speak of are patentable under existing laws. Second, nobody is prevented from developing anything they want by selective breeding. They should just not be able to patent it. And third, ask a farmer who has selectivly developed his own strain only to have it infected by a patented GMO (and necessarily destroyed) if there should be patent protection for life forms. BR Peter G. Thailand Sponsored Link Try Netflix today! With plans starting at only $5.99 a month what are you waiting for? http://www.netflix.com/Signup?mqso=80010030 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
robert and benita rabello wrote: snipe We've found very serious, deleterious effects of depleted uranium munitions on soldiers who served in the Gulf War. That's a relatively small sample size when compared to the population of dental professionals in North America and Europe. So, if we can diagnose our veterans on the basis of exposure to depleted uranium in the Gulf War, why are we UNABLE to provide similar results in a much larger population exposed to dental amalgam? Fillings do not contain depleted uranium and DU when it vaporizes on impact and oxidizes into uranium trioxide is found to be a nano powder which is something like 100,000 to 1 meeelion times more toxic than DU is in a macro scale. Gulf war syndrom has nothing to do with mercury in fillings or vaccines. But didn't I read years ago that there is a very high suicide rate among dentists? And you are asking why we don't see wide spread health effects? But these people are saying that many wide spread problems ARE thought to be linked to mecury. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back on topic - Necessary temp for filtering
Guys if I could chime in on this convo; This is one of the advantages to doing everything in the reactor. I can make use of the latent heat from the process due to the insulated tank and do a hot wash. Also the reactor is clean and at a standardised condition every time I run a batch. Pump washing is as good as stir washing IMHO but don't try it if you are getting less than complete reactions as the pump impeller does really churn things up. lol. It's a good thing actually, my reactor does not allow me to fool myself with regartds to quality. Hot washes do rock however. Wash on dudes... Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Mike, I can't give a definitive answer, but can share some personal experience testimony. My well water is about 50F (10C). I stir wash. Raising the temp to upper 60s (20C) or better 70s cuts settling time by about 50%. Not surprisingly, warmer temps are especially helpful during the first wash. I don't think it's so much a question of the BD being thick or thin, but the effect heat has on emulsions. Do 2 wash tests on the same BD one at 50F and the other at 80F. Higher temps would give quicker separation, but it becomes an energy issue. In the summer I add an extra 100 feet to my garden hose, lay it out in the sun and have solar heated wash water. Now that I'm using DB to heat my domestic water, I'm thinking of tapping into a hot water line to feed my wash tank . use one of those things they use to feed ice makers in freezers blend it w. well water to get 75 - 80F (~ 25C) wash water. I know I've done this commercial before, but doesn't mist/bubble washing take a long time? Even if you cut settling time out altogether, don't you have to mist/bubble for like 6 - 8 hrs? (vs. Stir wash for 3 - 5 minutes) Best to you, Tom - Original Message - From: "Mike Weaver" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 8:35 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back on topic - Necessary temp for filtering Have been gearing up new 55 gallon drum processer - all well but filtering is acting odd. I'm using a mist wash system (I know, but it's so nicely done with steel bubbler and all, plus it work fine) I've noticed as the temp drops it's taking longer for the water to settle through and it's clear there is water in the DB though It does settle after a bit (few hours). I think the DB is thicker due to the cold. Last year I had an aquarium heater (broke it) and it worked better. Offhand does anyone know at which temp I need to heat? -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back on topic - Necessary temp for filtering
Joe, I've never done a wash in the reactor. I've always been afraid of any residual glycerine ... in the pump, in the reactor itself. I pump the product into a settling tank and use a different pump to pump it into my wash tank. I beat the bejeeba's out of it on the first wash w/o fear. My glycerinophobia has been reinforced by a friend, who, skipping the settling tank and using the same pump for processing and for pumping into his wash tank gets emulsions all too often, even though the BD eventually tests out OK. My only explanation is glycerine contamination. Hot wash probably eliminates emulsion from residual glycerine, No? My second concern is the water left in the processor from the wash. Oh yeah, I forgot I'm talkin' to "Vacuum Joe". You are able to pull the water out of the next batch of WVO w/o serious energy expenditure. I gotta get w. the program on that. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back on topic - Necessary temp for filtering Guys if I could chime in on this convo;This is one of the advantages to doing everything in the reactor. I can make use of the latent heat from the process due to the insulated tank and do a hot wash. Also the reactor is clean and at a standardised condition every time I run a batch. Pump washing is as good as stir washing IMHO but don't try it if you are getting less than complete reactions as the pump impeller does really churn things up. lol. It's a good thing actually, my reactor does not allow me to fool myself with regartds to quality. Hot washes do rock however.Wash on dudes...JoeThomas Kelly wrote: Mike, I can't give a definitive answer, but can share some personal experience testimony. My well water is about 50F (10C). I stir wash. Raising the temp to upper 60s (20C) or better 70s cuts settling time by about 50%. Not surprisingly, warmer temps are especially helpful during the first wash. I don't think it's so much a question of the BD being thick or thin, but the effect heat has on emulsions. Do 2 wash tests on the same BD one at 50F and the other at 80F. Higher temps would give quicker separation, but it becomes an energy issue. In the summer I add an extra 100 feet to my garden hose, lay it out in the sun and have solar heated wash water. Now that I'm using DB to heat my domestic water, I'm thinking of tapping into a hot water line to feed my wash tank . use one of those things they use to feed ice makers in freezers blend it w. well water to get 75 - 80F (~ 25C) wash water. I know I've done this commercial before, but doesn't mist/bubble washing take a long time? Even if you cut settling time out altogether, don't you have to mist/bubble for like 6 - 8 hrs? (vs. Stir wash for 3 - 5 minutes) Best to you, Tom - Original Message - From: "Mike Weaver" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 8:35 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Back on topic - Necessary temp for filtering Have been gearing up new 55 gallon drum processer - all well but filtering is acting odd. I'm using a mist wash system (I know, but it's so nicely done with steel bubbler and all, plus it work fine) I've noticed as the temp drops it's taking longer for the water to settle through and it's clear there is water in the DB though It does settle after a bit (few hours). I think the DB is thicker due to the cold. Last year I had an aquarium heater (broke it) and it worked better. Offhand does anyone know at which temp I need to heat? -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
Joe Street wrote: Fillings do not contain depleted uranium and DU when it vaporizes on impact and oxidizes into uranium trioxide is found to be a nano powder which is something like 100,000 to 1 meeelion times more toxic than DU is in a macro scale. Gulf war syndrom has nothing to do with mercury in fillings or vaccines. I understand that, but I don't think you're grasping my point. There is a VERY large percentage of the overall population walking around with dental amalgams, and a cohort of professionals that have been working with this material for decades. Yet there is no study that supports negative health impacts within that population that can be directly linked to mercury in dental fillings. But didn't I read years ago that there is a very high suicide rate among dentists? Can that impact be isolated to mercury exposure? And you are asking why we don't see wide spread health effects? But these people are saying that many wide spread problems ARE thought to be linked to mecury. The cause / effect linkage breaks down when examined across the population. Now, I TRY to be open minded about this . . . We once took our youngest son to an naturopath (who came highly recommended) because he'd developed a skin rash. The naturopath hooked him up to a machine that measured electrical resistance in his skin and diagnosed my son with mercury poisoning. I asked: Where did he get exposed to mercury? Eating shellfish, the doctor responded. But we don't EVER eat shellfish, and the only other fish we eat is salmon that we catch ourselves in the Fraser River. Well, then it's amalgam fillings. He doesn't HAVE any fillings, I protested. Does your wife? he asked. Yes, I replied. Then he was exposed in utero. Mind you, the boy was six years old when this rash appeared. Heavy metals are excreted in sweat, and like every other normal boy, my son plays hard enough to often work himself into a lather. So, I was supposed to believe that this skin rash he developed came from in utero exposure to mercury from my sweetheart's amalgam fillings, even though SIX YEARS had passed since his birth, and he'd sweat regularly enough to warrant at least one bath per day. My wife doesn't suffer from skin rashes and neither do I, yet both of us have had amalgam fillings in our teeth for many years. So my point in this, is that just because someone believes in a cause / effect relationship doesn't mean it actually exists. People used to burn or drown women as witches on unsubstantiated claims. When I hear complaints about mercury in dental fillings, these are normally accompanied by testimonials put forth as evidence for the veracity of the claim. But why are those testimonials more valid than my own experience? And why can't people who believe in this kind of thing answer the basic question of: Why do we not see widespread, consistent impacts across a population that has been exposed to mercury in dental amalgams for decades? Yes, we should be use the precautionary principle. Yes, we should try to limit our exposure to things we know are dangerous. But let's be careful about drawing unsubstantiated conclusions, too. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump
A couple of months ago a post suggested using a refrigerator compressor as a vacuum pump. I just accidentally destroyed the refrigerator that I had been using for my "kegs" of homebrewed beer. The compressor still works. Will it work as a vacuum pump on my processor? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
Hello Robert I'm a little nonplussed, what you're disagreeing with is not what I've said, and IMHO my position has been clear and consistent. Eg.: what you've described as allopathic medicine. (It's a term I've only read from you, and I admit that I had to go running to a dictionary because I wasn't confident of its meaning!) Treating the disease at the http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]q=allopathic allopathic - 44 matches Not all from me, I didn't even introduce it, not even in this discussion. It's only part of the definition I've used, I've generally termed it industrialised allopathic Western medicine, which is at least accurate. Simply put, allopathic medicine treats the symptom. You talk of amalgam, but I haven't discussed amalgam, why ask me? I've attacked bias and narrowness in Bob's criteria and questioning, and I believe I've shown it to be dogmatic and not even-handed. I have not rejected the demand for data to support claims made, as has been alleged - dammit, it's in the list rules, I'm the one who put it there, and did more than anyone to give the list as a whole its habit of rigorousness. The list rules say you should be prepared to substantiate what you say here, which is clear enough, but how exactly do you define data? A definition that excludes the basis of Chinese medicine as mere hearsay and unscientific testimonial, with any results written off to the placebo effect, and sneers similarly at Indian traditional medicine, herbalism, homeopathy and indeed everything but Western industrial medicine is just another form of cultural imperialism, or the dogma of a religious-style fundamentalism, and we can see just where those approaches have been leading us these days eh? It's worth noting that the WHO does not agree with Bob and gives considerable credit to traditional methods and healers. I haven't seen anybody advocating the wholesale abandonment of industrialised Western medicine, I haven't done so. I've called for informed choice and haven't excluded anything. As a last resort, Mike Weaver's just taken a course of antibiotics, which he normally avoids at all costs. He'd have been a mug not to eh? That's a far cry from a woman I knew who'd been taking antibiotics three times a day for 12 years on the continuing advice of her doctor as a preventive against teenage acne, or her mother, who'd been prescribed increasingly heavy doses of librium for more than 20 years (by a different GP) and was practically nuts as a result (such cases are not uncommon), or the behaviour of such as Bayer in putting us all at risk from antibiotic-resistant superbugs (now killing people) because Bayer makes such good money out of antibiotic-laced poultry feed - more than 30 years after the first high-level warnings of the dangers were published. But Bob doesn't question such practices - of course he doesn't defend them when confronted with them, but he seems to regard them as exceptions, rare flaws in the system rather than the all-too-common results of a system that is itself flawed, data or no. Informed choice (self-informed, by necessity) vs Trust us we're experts (and here's the data to prove it). So Mike just had his symptom treated, successfully, but, to use him as an example, I'd add that he might be asking himself why his immune system couldn't cope on its own and wondering what he can do to strengthen it. Western medicine won't help him there, and it'd be a rare GP who thought that way, or who didn't scoff if Mike thought that way and said so. Meanwhile those antibiotics won't have done his gut flora a whole lot of good, and if it's extra nutritional support his immune system needs he'll probably be in worse shape for getting it now than he was before he took the antibiotics, even though they stopped the bronchial infection. Lots of yoghurt and kefir will help restore the gut flora to normal, but a GP won't tell him that either. Please note that I still haven't said never take antibiotics or abandon Western medicine wholesale. Maybe I'm wrong. But I sense that the man simply BELIEVES in the veracity of the scientific method as a means of solving mysteries. You That's not what we've been seeing, which is a formulaic approach that attempts to disqualify and discredit anything that doesn't meet a set of criteria which the science establishment itself admits is flawed and which fails to prevent gross abuse that causes widespread suffering. Bob has offered nothing constructive, no solutions, no mysteries solved. Solutions are definitely required, what passes for healthcare today is a health disaster, even the data shows that. But what Bob would leave us with is a take-it-or-lump-it shrug because ALL the alternatives fail to meet his criteria for data, according to him. It's easy to tear things down - down goes Ayurvedic medicine for instance, with an ugly smear, because of belief in the veracity of the scientific
Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
Hi Ken, Peter I don't really want to get into an extended argument about something that is somewhat off-topic GMOs are not at all off-topic. Biofuels have to be grown, they're touted as sustainable fuels, but how can they be sustainable if the farming systems and indeed the crops themselves are not sustainable? but I will say this: If someone developed a genetically modified plant that would grow well in marginal areas and produced high quality vegetable oil, that could be easily extracted, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? If that were all there was to it, but it usually isn't. GMOs don't mind their own business, there's been a wide range of nasty side-effects. Or for that matter, if someone developed a plant that grew well in marginal areas and contained high-quality protein, low glycemic carbohydrates, and many needed trace nutrients, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? I too have concerns about GMO's. As the process evolves and becomes easier, sooner or later, someone somewhere is going to make a serious mistake, You're a little behind the times, there have already been serious mistakes of many kinds, from superweeds that pick up pesticide resistance, to pollution of the centres of diversity of major crops, to mass suicides among farmers whose livelihoods have been destroyed, to toxic non-approved GMO varieties that have polluted the food supply. Check the archives. Nor have GMO crops kept any of their promises - they're not higher yielding, they haven't led to less pesticide use as promised but to more pesticide use. And so on and on. So far there is no good thing about them. but denying patent protection is an overly simplistic suggestion that will not solve the problem. Large companies can still make lots of money with GMO's even if they couldn't be patented, it would just cut into their profits, a little. The fact that some people have developed plant varieties and have not patented them is not an argument to do away with plant patents. Just as the fact that some people have developed traditional inventions (in fact some people on this list and JTF) and never bother to patent them is not an argument to do away with the patent office completely. I don't like the fact that large corporations use bullying tactics, the WTO or trade agreements to rape the little guy in their pursuit of the almighty dollar, so what else is new? FYI Monsanto lost its ridiculous case, when it sued a farmer when their genetically modified wheat spread uncontrollably to his fields. Ken - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 6:21:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi Ken ; This is exactly what should be changed. This is what is creating the GMO problem. Patent protection for inventions, yes. They stay on your land or in your house and don't affect me if I don't want them. Patent protection for life forms which spread uncontrollably from your field to mine, thus requiring payment of patent licensing fees, no. Millions of people develope strains by selective breeding and never bother to apply for patents. I see no reason why these people would not continue to do so if the patent law was changed. There would be no shortage of improved plants. If we cannot agree on this list that GMO's are a problem and will cause the death of millions, how can the world ever agree? Also, you haven't addressed my second and third points. BR Peter G. --- Ken Riznyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, Here's the quote from the US gov patent office website: Plant Patents The law also provides for the granting of a patent to anyone who has invented or discovered and asexually reproduced any distinct and new variety of plant, including cultivated sports, mutants, hybrids, and newly found seedlings, other than a tuber-propagated plant or a plant found in an uncultivated state. Asexually propagated plants are those that are reproduced by means other than from seeds, such as by the rooting of cuttings, by layering, budding, grafting, inarching, etc. - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 3:17:12 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi Ken ; First, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the varieties you speak of are patentable under existing laws. Second, nobody is prevented from developing anything they want by selective breeding. They should just not be able to patent it. And third, ask a farmer who has selectivly developed his own strain only to have it infected by a patented GMO (and necessarily destroyed) if there should be patent protection for life forms. BR Peter G.
Re: [Biofuel] Back on topic - Necessary temp for filtering
Hi Tom; Glycerine can kill a wash and it doesn't take much. After the lions share of settling has happened ( half hour after the pump is turned off) I momentarily run the pump to rinse any glycerine out of the recirc line, or venturi. This isn't much because the pump inlet faces straight down and drains well. The venturi inlet is above the glycerin settling level on my system ( remember the venturi is on the pump INLET side not the outlet of the pump as you would normally use a venturi) and the suction port of my home made venturi also points straight down to the wash line which connects to the very bottom of the reactor. I close the wash valve during this to avoid sucking settled glycerin into the venturi suction port, and run the pump for a second or two. Any glycerine in the recirc tube then goes into the reaction vessel and settles out with the rest overnight. After the glycerin is drained and wash test sample is passed I add water to the hot reactor and let it sit for a few minutes and then drain some of the water from the bottom which rinses out any remaining glycerin traces. Washing is done with the wash valve fully open. The venturi sucks from the bottom of the tank untill the coulour in the wash line is the same as thre main recirc line indicating full homogenization. Yes any traces of water after the last wash are vacuum evaporated before the finished fuel is drained from the reactor so there is nothing but BD residue in the system when it is recharged with oil for the next batch. Even if there was some water it would be boiled off during the oil drying stage at the begining of the next process. My entire fuel making system sits in a 1m X 1m floor space and can make 25 litres of fuel every two days. I use approximately 3Kwh of energy in the process which costs (currently) 18 cents. I do require a bit of floor space for a couple of cubies which I drain the cocktail into to hold untill I do a methanol recovery run, again using the reactor for methanol recovery. After that process I put some hot water into the system and pump wash for a while to clean it out and I'm ready to go again. I don't have space for separate settling and wash tanks. Granted my fuel needs are low but my 90 litre size design can easily serve someone with similar space constraints who has to do a serious commute. Best regards Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Joe, I've never done a wash in the reactor. I've always been afraid of any residual glycerine ... in the pump, in the reactor itself. I pump the product into a settling tank and use a different pump to pump it into my wash tank. I beat the bejeeba's out of it on the first wash w/o fear. My glycerinophobia has been reinforced by a friend, who, skipping the settling tank and using the same pump for processing and for pumping into his wash tank gets emulsions all too often, even though the BD eventually tests out OK. My only explanation is glycerine contamination. Hot wash probably eliminates emulsion from residual glycerine, No? My second concern is the water left in the processor from the wash. Oh yeah, I forgot I'm talkin' to "Vacuum Joe". You are able to pull the water out of the next batch of WVO w/o serious energy expenditure. I gotta get w. the program on that. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back on topic - Necessary temp for filtering Guys if I could chime in on this convo; This is one of the advantages to doing everything in the reactor. I can make use of the latent heat from the process due to the insulated tank and do a hot wash. Also the reactor is clean and at a standardised condition every time I run a batch. Pump washing is as good as stir washing IMHO but don't try it if you are getting less than complete reactions as the pump impeller does really churn things up. lol. It's a good thing actually, my reactor does not allow me to fool myself with regartds to quality. Hot washes do rock however. Wash on dudes... Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Mike, I can't give a definitive answer, but can share some personal experience testimony. My well water is about 50F (10C). I stir wash. Raising the temp to upper 60s (20C) or better 70s cuts settling time by about 50%. Not surprisingly, warmer temps are especially helpful during the first wash. I don't think it's so much a question of the BD being thick or thin, but the effect heat has on emulsions. Do 2 wash tests on the same BD one at 50F and the other at 80F. Higher temps would give quicker separation, but it becomes an energy issue. In the summer I add an extra 100 feet to my garden hose, lay it out in the sun and have solar heated wash water. Now that I'm using DB to heat my domestic water, I'm thinking of tapping into a hot water line to feed my wash tank .
Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
Hi Robert; robert and benita rabello wrote: snip I understand that, but I don't think you're grasping my point. There is a VERY large percentage of the overall population walking around with dental amalgams, and a cohort of professionals that have been working with this material for decades. Yet there is no study that supports negative health impacts within that population that can be directly linked to mercury in dental fillings. Yeah I got your point. My point was that people are making claims ( please for the moment don't pull a 'show me the data' just for argument's sake allow me this for a moment) they are making claims that just maybe a large upswing in the occurrance of certain diseases may be related to long term effects of low level exposure to certain toxins, mercury being one of the suspects. Sure it's complicated by rising levels of all kinds of unhealthy things in trace concentrations in our environment, the air we breathe and the water we drink, the food supply. Maybe that's the big picture here. Check with fisheries on the guidelines for those fish you are pulling out of the Fraser for example. So maybe the body of evidence is massive and right there in front of us. Questionmark. Check out what this SFU paper has to say about mercury levels in the Fraser watershed and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) the ones that can slip into your DNA helix and have fun with your cellular reproduction. http://www.rem.sfu.ca/FRAP/aquae.pdf All of these things play a role I am certain but the real world is not a closed carefully controlled lab environment so what can be said in a scientific manner? I am reminded of post docs here in my lab who run plasma processes that have several variables that are wildly out of control and while they tweak one of those variables and they get one device on their wafer out of a hundred at the end which has a desireable characteristic they then assume it is due to their matrix of values for this one variable and not to some chance confluence of uncontrolled parameters. They realize it later ( after they have published) that they have the devils own time trying to reproduce it! ROFL. Are you going to put a bunch of humans in a cage and control everything they are exposed to over their lifetime? When you hear that something you have been eating, drinking, or smoking is potentially harmful do you stop consuming it, or do you wait to get sick so you have your own personal data? How fanatic do you need to be in your adherence to the dogma of the church of reason? But didn't I read years ago that there is a very high suicide rate among dentists? Can that impact be isolated to mercury exposure? ISOLATED? No, not beyond a reasonable doubt, not out here in the real, complicated world. Maybe in a 50 year lab experiment with real human subjects, or maybe with rats that have an 80 year life expectancy if they existed. But see my comments above. What is isolated in the real world? Read up on the mental health effects of exposure to mercury vapour. Is there a correlation? Perhaps? Ever heard the _expression_ "mad as a hatter"? Felt hats used to be made with mercury. Is contemplating suicide a form of madness? Sometimes I wonder. And there's probably a few db difference in the exposure level between me and a dentist! LOL Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump
Hi Tom; Not for long. Refrigeration compressors rely on lubricant in the refrigerant charge and anyways you will always get some moisture or in the case of vacuum methanol recovery, some methanol that gets past the liquid trap and condenses in your vacuum pump. This would kill a refrig type compressor in short order I would guess. But why not use the refrigeration system to cool your condenser? That way you use some electricity instead of water for cooling and the condenser efficiency would be much better. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: A couple of months ago a post suggested using a refrigerator compressor as a vacuum pump. I just accidentally destroyed the refrigerator that I had been using for my "kegs" of homebrewed beer. The compressor still works. Will it work as a vacuum pump on my processor? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Passive solar home
Hello Robert. Around here for some seldom used barbecues chimney set up is made simple with those ceramic rain tubes around 10 - 25 cm in diameter and 1 meter long made with a connecting bigger end, they are glued together with mortar even with red earth (Brazilian Parana State type) mixed with sugarcane syrup. They never corrode and if they are made form some good clay they do not crack after periods of frequents fire up and shut downs the only thing to take care is to start the fire slowly to give it time for thermal dilatation. I hope your building codes do not classify this as a forbidden type of ceramic chimney. It could be a cheaper solution to your problem. Best Regards. Juan -Original- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre de robert and benita rabello Sent: Sun, 10/01/2006 2:41 For: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Passive solar home Kirk McLoren wrote: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9152621504090937299 cost seven percent more than conventional to build but elimiated 90% of utility bills. It's impressive. We did a lot of similar things when we built our current house, but didn't have the money for triple glazed windows! Our utility bills for natural gas are roughly half those of a comparably sized home in our area, and our electric bills are about a third of what BC Hydro considers normal. Given that we encountered a lot of opposition from our building trades (and the bank!), we didn't really try very hard to make the house a true passive solar design. (And our insolation is LOUSY up here in the winter!) Last winter, we discovered that our 35 000 Btu boiler (the smallest one we could find) is actually too BIG for the heat load in our situation. The boiler comes on for about 4 minutes, two or three times every hour when it's cold. With this firing pattern, the chimney never gets very warm, and condensate from combustion (water vapor + carbon dioxide, in addition to the heat we pull out) is forming a mild acid in our chimney and corroding it from the inside. We had to raise the temperature inside the house and increase the temperature of the circulating water in order to save our boiler from corrosion damage. Isn't THAT ironic? I suppose the solution to this would be to get a big tank of water and plumb it into the system. The boiler would heat the water (and stay on longer), and we'd draw from that supply to heat the house during the day. If I can save my pennies for a wood gasification boiler, this will definately be the route I take. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Information from NOD32 This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System for Linux Mail Servers. http://www.eset.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
Joe, thank you for your observations, specifically:"the real world is not a closed carefully controlled lab environment so what can be said in a scientific manner?"Maybe these are the words we have been needing. When you think about it, so many new (human-made) variables are impacting the environment that"science" itself must necessarily be impacted. No longer are we studying processes that have evolved for millions of years. We are studying processes that have never before occurred in the history of the planet.The questions become whether or not"science" changes too and if so, how? More and more, it seems to me, "science" must take into account asinclusive of a pictureas possible to be relevant. If so, it also seems to me, perhaps finally we are ready to learn just how significant tothe changes thattake place is what we imagine."In peace and light I journey through forever." Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra Hi Robert;robert and benita rabello wrote:snip I understand that, but I don't think you're grasping my point. There is a VERY large percentage of the overall population walking around with dental amalgams, and a cohort of professionals that have been working with this material for decades. Yet there is no study that supports negative health impacts within that population that can be directly linked to mercury in dental fillings. Yeah I got your point. My point was that people are making claims ( please for the moment don't pull a 'show me the data' just for argument's sake allow me this for a moment) they are making claims that just maybe a large upswing in the occurrance of certain diseases may be related to long term effects of low level exposure to certain toxins, mercury being one of the suspects. Sure it's complicated by rising levels of all kinds of unhealthy things in trace concentrations in our environment, the air we breathe and the water we drink, the food supply. Maybe that's the big picture here. Check with fisheries on the guidelines for those fish you are pulling out of the Fraser for example. So maybe the body of evidence is massive and right there in front of us. Questionmark.Check out what this SFU paper has to say about mercury levels in the Fraser watershed and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) the ones that can slip into your DNA helix and have fun with your cellular reproduction. http://www.rem.sfu.ca/FRAP/aquae.pdfAll of these things play a role I am certain but the real world is not a closed carefully controlled lab environment so what can be said in a scientific manner? I am reminded of post docs here in my lab who run plasma processes that have several variables that are wildly out of control and while they tweak one of those variables and they get one device on their wafer out of a hundred at the end which has a desireable characteristic they then assume it is due to their matrix of values for this one variable and not to some chance confluence of uncontrolled parameters. They realize it later ( after they have published) that they have the devils own time trying to reproduce it! ROFL. Are you going to put a bunch of humans in a cage and control everything they are exposed to over their lifetime? When you hear that something you have been eating, drinking, or smoking is potentially harmful do you stop consuming it, or do you wait to get sick so you have your own personal data? How fanatic do you need to be in your adherence to the dogma of the church of reason? But didn't I read years ago that there is a very high suicide rate among dentists? Can that impact be isolated to mercury exposure? ISOLATED? No, not beyond a reasonable doubt, not out here in the real, complicated world. Maybe in a 50 year lab experiment with real human subjects, or maybe with rats that have an 80 year life expectancy if they existed. But see my comments above. What is isolated in the real world? Read up on the mental health effects of exposure to mercury vapour. Is there a correlation? Perhaps? Ever heard the _expression_ "mad as a hatter"? Felt hats used to be made with mercury. Is contemplating suicide a form of madness? Sometimes I wonder. And there's probably a few db difference in the exposure level between me and a dentist! LOLJoe ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump
Hi Joe, Thanks for the explanation. I've been linking methanol recovery to the washing process. Running the hot water from the condenser into the wash tank. I like the idea of bringing more things home from the scrap metal pile than I bring there but since the only thing than works on the refrigerator is the compressor and the light bulb refrigerant is gone I think it's on its way out. I picked up a nice tank suitable for 60 L batches with a plumbed opening at about the 40L - 45Lmark. Good place to put the venturi? I'll have to re-visit your site and see what you've done. I think I've become a bit too content with how things are going would like to decrease energy consumed in the process. Good talking to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump Hi Tom;Not for long. Refrigeration compressors rely on lubricant in the refrigerant charge and anyways you will always get some moisture or in the case of vacuum methanol recovery, some methanol that gets past the liquid trap and condenses in your vacuum pump. This would kill a refrig type compressor in short order I would guess. But why not use the refrigeration system to cool your condenser? That way you use some electricity instead of water for cooling and the condenser efficiency would be much better.JoeThomas Kelly wrote: A couple of months ago a post suggested using a refrigerator compressor as a vacuum pump. I just accidentally destroyed the refrigerator that I had been using for my "kegs" of homebrewed beer. The compressor still works. Will it work as a vacuum pump on my processor? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
Keith Addison wrote: Hello Robert I'm a little nonplussed, what you're disagreeing with is not what I've said, and IMHO my position has been clear and consistent. In that case, I offer an apology to you. I certainly don't intend to put words into your mouth. (44 instances of allopathic medicine) Not all from me, I didn't even introduce it, not even in this discussion. It's only part of the definition I've used, I've generally termed it industrialised allopathic Western medicine, which is at least accurate. Simply put, allopathic medicine treats the symptom. Ok, I understand what you've written, but this is not the type of medicine with which I'm familiar. I think the peculiar circumstances of my background may be interfering here, as we may be discussing different things. In the limited world of my childhood, medicine was intimately linked to lifestyle and the spiritual condition of the patient. (The people I grew up with honestly believe it's a SIN to harm your body. They don't drink, they don't smoke, they don't consume anything with caffeine, many of them don't eat meat and dairy products, and they're constantly harping on diet, sleep, hydration and exercise!) You talk of amalgam, but I haven't discussed amalgam, why ask me? True, you have not. I've worded my response badly if I've given you the impression that my remarks were directed to you alone. It seems that MANY people in this forum have used dental amalgams as an example of industrialized medicine gone wrong, and I am using the amalgam discussion as an example of why epidemiology is useful in determining deleterious impacts on human health. I've attacked bias and narrowness in Bob's criteria and questioning, and I believe I've shown it to be dogmatic and not even-handed. I have not rejected the demand for data to support claims made, as has been alleged - dammit, it's in the list rules, I'm the one who put it there, and did more than anyone to give the list as a whole its habit of rigorousness. Then I'm reading something into Mr. Allen's remarks that either you aren't seeing, or simply isn't there. I agree that he has a bias toward the scientific method as a means of establishing the veracity of claims, but doesn't that bias provide a counterweight to some of the discussion? He asks for data, but most of what has been posted about this subject centers on anecdotal testimony. The list rules say you should be prepared to substantiate what you say here, which is clear enough, but how exactly do you define data? A definition that excludes the basis of Chinese medicine as mere hearsay and unscientific testimonial, with any results written off to the placebo effect, and sneers similarly at Indian traditional medicine, herbalism, homeopathy and indeed everything but Western industrial medicine is just another form of cultural imperialism, or the dogma of a religious-style fundamentalism, and we can see just where those approaches have been leading us these days eh? Indeed! As I've mentioned before, however, that cultural perspective is VERY hard to keep IN perspective. I'm trying, but it isn't easy! It's worth noting that the WHO does not agree with Bob and gives considerable credit to traditional methods and healers. Hence my remarks concerning missionary stories. We have a rather diverse cultural bias here in North America. I haven't seen anybody advocating the wholesale abandonment of industrialised Western medicine Hmm . . . Perhaps not in those terms, Keith. As I've read, I've come away with a sense that the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater--especially as the discussion has become more passionate. If I'm wrong in this, I'll concede your point. , I haven't done so. I've called for informed choice and haven't excluded anything. As a last resort, Mike Weaver's just taken a course of antibiotics, which he normally avoids at all costs. He'd have been a mug not to eh? That's a far cry from a woman I knew who'd been taking antibiotics three times a day for 12 years on the continuing advice of her doctor as a preventive against teenage acne, or her mother, who'd been prescribed increasingly heavy doses of librium for more than 20 years (by a different GP) and was practically nuts as a result (such cases are not uncommon), or the behaviour of such as Bayer in putting us all at risk from antibiotic-resistant superbugs (now killing people) because Bayer makes such good money out of antibiotic-laced poultry feed - more than 30 years after the first high-level warnings of the dangers were published. This is the kind of information that has to be brought into the discussion, but it seems strange to me because it hasn't been my experience that doctors prescribe so indiscriminately. Now, the behavior of corporations in developing and promoting their drugs has certainly led MANY problems in addition to
Re: [Biofuel] Pellet fuel options
Right... did some searches and found some pellet mills that may be purchased: http://www.alibaba.com/productsearch/Pellet_Mill.html Of course, these are just examples. A little more searching may turn up a manual or semi-automated process/design. You figure, rabbit feed is in the same form so that may also be an outlet for pellet producing. -dave ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
But the farmer was forced to hire a lawyer etc. and when you ask restitution for costs they say that would discourage suits, it constitutes jeopardy instead of free access to the legal system.So they may know they will lose but they can lose more money than you in this war. So they make a situation where you pay 10,000 wrongfully because justice is 60,000. The system is broken.KirkKen Riznyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't really want to get into an extended argument about something that is somewhat off-topic but I will say this:If someone developed a genetically modified plant that would grow well in marginal areas and produced high quality vegetable oil, that could be easily extracted, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Or for that matter, if someone developed a plant that grew well in marginal areas and contained high-quality protein, low glycemic carbohydrates, and many needed trace nutrients, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? I too have concerns about GMO's. As the process evolves and becomes easier, sooner or later, someone somewhere is going to make a serious mistake, but denying patent protection is an overly simplistic suggestion that will not solve the problem. Large companies can still make lots of money with GMO's even if they couldn't be patented, it would just cut into their profits, a little.The fact that some people have developed plant varieties and have not patented them is not an argument to do away with plant patents. Just as the fact that some people have developed traditional inventions (in fact some people on this list and JTF) and never bother to patent them is not an argument to do away with the patent office completely. I don't like the fact that large corporations use bullying tactics, the WTO or trade agreements to rape the little guy in their pursuit of the almighty dollar, so what else is new?FYI Monsanto lost its ridiculous case, when it sued a farmer when their genetically modified wheat spread uncontrollably to his fields.Ken - Original Message From: Guag Meister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Monday, November 6, 2006 6:21:47 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.Hi Ken ;This is exactly what should be changed. This is whatis creating the GMO problem. Patent protection forinventions, yes. They stay on your land or in yourhouse and don't affect me if I don't want them. Patent protection for life forms which spreaduncontrollably from your field to mine, thus requiringpayment of patent licensing fees, no.Millions of people develope strains by selectivebreeding and never bother to apply for patents. I seeno reason why these people would not continue to do soif the patent law was changed. There would be noshortage of improved plants.If we cannot agree on this list that GMO's are aproblem and will cause the death of millions, how canthe world ever agree?Also, you haven't addressed my second and thirdpoints.BRPeter G.--- Ken Riznyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Peter, Here's the quote from the US gov patent office website: Plant Patents The law also provides for the granting of a patent to anyone who has invented or discovered and asexually reproduced any distinct and new variety of plant, including cultivated sports, mutants, hybrids, and newly found seedlings, other than a tuber-propagated plant or a plant found in an uncultivated state. Asexually propagated plants are those that are reproduced by means other than from seeds, such as by the rooting of cuttings, by layering, budding, grafting, inarching, etc. - Original Message From: Guag Meister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 3:17:12 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi Ken ; First, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the varieties you speak of are patentable under existing laws. Second, nobody is prevented from developing anything they want by selective breeding. They should just not be able to patent it. And third, ask a farmer who has selectivly developed his own strain only to have it infected by a patented GMO (and necessarily destroyed) if there should be patent protection for life forms. BR Peter G. Thailand Sponsored LinkTry Netflix today! With plans starting at only $5.99 a month what are you waiting for?http://www.netflix.com/Signup?mqso=80010030___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing
Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
Hi Mike; You don't need to tell me about the power of the mind, - subconscious or as some like to call it the superconscious. You'd be preaching to the converted. The thing is I find myself on niether side of the debate (it happens often) I could actually argue for both sides many times. This doesn't mean I am riding the fence which is something I detest, but rather that I often see the two sides of an issue as two sides of the same single coin. Too often we can get the blinders on and insist that our view of the coin is THE one, and we lose sight of the fact that it is a coin. The forest and the trees. Science has it's place and so does mysticism. One day when our species comes of age people will look back and laugh that we even saw something to argue about. It's the same with religious debates, political debates and on and on. Ultimately it is all one integral energy with some fascinating swirls that we currently like to obsess over. What more can one say? The more one says, the farther he gets from the truth. I'm feeling particularly mystical today, sorry if I dripped any on your monitor! LOL Peace. Joe MK DuPree wrote: Joe, thank you for your observations, specifically:"the real world is not a closed carefully controlled lab environment so what can be said in a scientific manner?"Maybe these are the words we have been needing. When you think about it, so many new (human-made) variables are impacting the environment that"science" itself must necessarily be impacted. No longer are we studying processes that have evolved for millions of years. We are studying processes that have never before occurred in the history of the planet.The questions become whether or not"science" changes too and if so, how? More and more, it seems to me, "science" must take into account asinclusive of a pictureas possible to be relevant. If so, it also seems to me, perhaps finally we are ready to learn just how significant tothe changes thattake place is what we imagine."In peace and light I journey through forever." Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra Hi Robert; robert and benita rabello wrote: snip I understand that, but I don't think you're grasping my point. There is a VERY large percentage of the overall population walking around with dental amalgams, and a cohort of professionals that have been working with this material for decades. Yet there is no study that supports negative health impacts within that population that can be directly linked to mercury in dental fillings. Yeah I got your point. My point was that people are making claims ( please for the moment don't pull a 'show me the data' just for argument's sake allow me this for a moment) they are making claims that just maybe a large upswing in the occurrance of certain diseases may be related to long term effects of low level exposure to certain toxins, mercury being one of the suspects. Sure it's complicated by rising levels of all kinds of unhealthy things in trace concentrations in our environment, the air we breathe and the water we drink, the food supply. Maybe that's the big picture here. Check with fisheries on the guidelines for those fish you are pulling out of the Fraser for example. So maybe the body of evidence is massive and right there in front of us. Questionmark. Check out what this SFU paper has to say about mercury levels in the Fraser watershed and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) the ones that can slip into your DNA helix and have fun with your cellular reproduction. http://www.rem.sfu.ca/FRAP/aquae.pdf All of these things play a role I am certain but the real world is not a closed carefully controlled lab environment so what can be said in a scientific manner? I am reminded of post docs here in my lab who run plasma processes that have several variables that are wildly out of control and while they tweak one of those variables and they get one device on their wafer out of a hundred at the end which has a desireable characteristic they then assume it is due to their matrix of values for this one variable and not to some chance confluence of uncontrolled parameters. They realize it later ( after they have published) that they have the devils own time trying to reproduce it! ROFL. Are you going to put a bunch of humans in a cage and control everything they are exposed to over their lifetime? When you hear that something you have been eating, drinking, or smoking is potentially harmful do you stop consuming it, or do you wait to get sick so you have your own personal data? How fanatic do you need to be in your adherence to the dogma of the church of reason? But didn't I read years ago that there is a very high suicide rate
Re: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump
It is a single stage vacuum pump. As for methanol in the oil it will evaporate if you run it till it is warm. Dont breathe methanol vapors. Pipe them outdoors KirkThomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Joe, Thanks for the explanation. I've been linking methanol recovery to the washing process. Running the hot water from the condenser into the wash tank. I like the idea of bringing more things home from the scrap metal pile than I bring there but since the only thing than works on the refrigerator is the compressor and the light bulb refrigerant is gone I think it's on its way out.I picked up a nice tank suitable for 60 L batches with a plumbed opening at about the 40L - 45Lmark. Good place to put the venturi? I'll have to re-visit your site and see what you've done. I think I've become a bit too content with how things are going would like to decrease energy consumed in the process. Good talking to you, Tom- Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump Hi Tom;Not for long. Refrigeration compressors rely on lubricant in the refrigerant charge and anyways you will always get some moisture or in the case of vacuum methanol recovery, some methanol that gets past the liquid trap and condenses in your vacuum pump. This would kill a refrig type compressor in short order I would guess. But why not use the refrigeration system to cool your condenser? That way you use some electricity instead of water for cooling and the condenser efficiency would be much better.JoeThomas Kelly wrote: A couple of months ago a post suggested using a refrigerator compressor as a vacuum pump. I just accidentally destroyed the refrigerator that I had been using for my "kegs" of homebrewed beer. The compressor still works. Will it work as a vacuum pump on my processor? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Sponsored Link Free Uniden 5.8GHz Phone System with Packet8 Internet Phone Service___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump
Hi Tom; Hang on to the compressor pump. It will do for intermittent use if you need to do some vacuum forming with a sheet of acrylic and a heat gun or laminating etc. Just not suitable for long term use. The venturi should optimally go low in the tank on the side just above the glycerin level. I took down the page with the old prototype photos but I can send you some if you like. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Joe, Thanks for the explanation. I've been linking methanol recovery to the washing process. Running the hot water from the condenser into the wash tank. I like the idea of bringing more things home from the scrap metal pile than I bring there but since the only thing than works on the refrigerator is the compressor and the light bulb refrigerant is gone I think it's on its way out. I picked up a nice tank suitable for 60 L batches with a plumbed opening at about the 40L - 45Lmark. Good place to put the venturi? I'll have to re-visit your site and see what you've done. I think I've become a bit too content with how things are going would like to decrease energy consumed in the process. Good talking to you, Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump Hi Tom; Not for long. Refrigeration compressors rely on lubricant in the refrigerant charge and anyways you will always get some moisture or in the case of vacuum methanol recovery, some methanol that gets past the liquid trap and condenses in your vacuum pump. This would kill a refrig type compressor in short order I would guess. But why not use the refrigeration system to cool your condenser? That way you use some electricity instead of water for cooling and the condenser efficiency would be much better. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: A couple of months ago a post suggested using a refrigerator compressor as a vacuum pump. I just accidentally destroyed the refrigerator that I had been using for my "kegs" of homebrewed beer. The compressor still works. Will it work as a vacuum pump on my processor? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
consider why the hatter was Mad. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra robert and benita rabello wrote: snipe We've found very serious, deleterious effects of depleted uranium munitions on soldiers who served in the Gulf War. That's a relatively small sample size when compared to the population of dental professionals in North America and Europe. So, if we can diagnose our veterans on the basis of exposure to depleted uranium in the Gulf War, why are we UNABLE to provide similar results in a much larger population exposed to dental amalgam? Fillings do not contain depleted uranium and DU when it vaporizes on impact and oxidizes into uranium trioxide is found to be a nano powder which is something like 100,000 to 1 meeelion times more toxic than DU is in a macro scale. Gulf war syndrom has nothing to do with mercury in fillings or vaccines. But didn't I read years ago that there is a very high suicide rate among dentists? And you are asking why we don't see wide spread health effects? But these people are saying that many wide spread problems ARE thought to be linked to mecury. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.28/518 - Release Date: 11/4/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.28/518 - Release Date: 11/4/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
Hi Ken ; If someone developed a genetically modified plant that would grow well in marginal areas and produced high quality vegetable oil, that could be easily extracted, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Or for that matter, if someone developed a plant that grew well in marginal areas and contained high-quality protein, low glycemic carbohydrates, and many needed trace nutrients, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? This is the cruel hoax and seduction. Taken in isolation of course it is a good thing, but the problem is it is never in isolation. How many tests and failures were needed to make this one success? What was the total cost to the earth? How many crops needed to be destroyed? How many small farmers put out of business or committed suicide? How many other life forms (birds, animals, fish, people, viruses, bacteria, etc) were affected or decimated (or made more dangerous)? And your case is only hypothetical wishful thinking for the future. The failures are here already. I too have concerns about GMO's. As the process evolves and becomes easier, sooner or later, someone somewhere is going to make a serious mistake, Please don't speak in the future tense. The serious mistakes have already been made. It is the disaster that is coming that really worries me. but denying patent protection is an overly simplistic suggestion that will not solve the problem. Large companies can still make lots of money with GMO's even if they couldn't be patented, it would just cut into their profits, a little. So why don't they? What is will do is deny the corporations the right to get patent fees from anyone who has been contaminated, which soon will be everyone, including you and me. The fact that some people have developed plant varieties and have not patented them is not an argument to do away with plant patents. Just as the fact that some people have developed traditional inventions (in fact some people on this list and JTF) and never bother to patent them is not an argument to do away with the patent office completely. But I wasn't using this as an argument to do away with patent protection for plants. I was using it to show that there would be no shortage of improved plants. I don't like the fact that large corporations use bullying tactics, the WTO or trade agreements to rape the little guy in their pursuit of the almighty dollar, so what else is new? What's new is the raping is spread by wind and grows exponentially with its own energy and a life force. That is certainly new. This is not some widget. FYI Monsanto lost its ridiculous case, when it sued a farmer when their genetically modified wheat spread uncontrollably to his fields. That's it? You think this will stop them? And at what cost to the farmer in stress, money, time, and lower quality wheat? What is the cost to the planet? What is the future cost to the planet when we continue to move in this direction? Ken BR Peter G. - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 6:21:47 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed. Hi Ken ; This is exactly what should be changed. This is what is creating the GMO problem. Patent protection for inventions, yes. They stay on your land or in your house and don't affect me if I don't want them. Patent protection for life forms which spread uncontrollably from your field to mine, thus requiring payment of patent licensing fees, no. Millions of people develope strains by selective breeding and never bother to apply for patents. I see no reason why these people would not continue to do so if the patent law was changed. There would be no shortage of improved plants. If we cannot agree on this list that GMO's are a problem and will cause the death of millions, how can the world ever agree? Also, you haven't addressed my second and third points. BR Peter G. --- Ken Riznyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter, Here's the quote from the US gov patent office website: Plant Patents The law also provides for the granting of a patent to anyone who has invented or discovered and asexually reproduced any distinct and new variety of plant, including cultivated sports, mutants, hybrids, and newly found seedlings, other than a tuber-propagated plant or a plant found in an uncultivated state. Asexually propagated plants are those that are reproduced by means other than from seeds, such as by the rooting of cuttings, by layering, budding, grafting, inarching, etc. - Original Message From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 6, 2006 3:17:12 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be
Re: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump
Yes it will. Just make sure that your vacuum tank can take it. I made one a month ago and I crumpled a 12gal guage16 stainless steel tank=) But it was a lot of fun doing it. Best, Chris From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 8:45 AM To: biofuel Subject: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump A couple of months ago a post suggested using a refrigerator compressor as a vacuum pump. I just accidentally destroyed the refrigerator that I had been using for my kegs of homebrewed beer. The compressor still works. Will it work as a vacuum pump on my processor? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump
I have been using a fridge compressor for quite a while now and yes, I roasted one, but that was due more to bungling and inexperience than any fault of the compressor... I find it to work superbly for vacuum drying of water fromWVO... In fact, for anyone planning to use one, I would highly recommend it... As for any use involving methanol extraction, I would shy far away from that - there are much safer and better methods previously discussed... A big bonus is that they are usually free for the asking from appliance repair outfits, trash disposal companies etc. Just *be sure* that the refrigerant has been recovered. (Done by a refrigeration company)Any loss of that (the refrigerant) to the atmosphere will absolutely negate any of the good things we are trying to accomplish here... My 0.02ยข Cdn, Al - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump Hi Tom;Not for long. Refrigeration compressors rely on lubricant in the refrigerant charge and anyways you will always get some moisture or in the case of vacuum methanol recovery, some methanol that gets past the liquid trap and condenses in your vacuum pump. This would kill a refrig type compressor in short order I would guess. But why not use the refrigeration system to cool your condenser? That way you use some electricity instead of water for cooling and the condenser efficiency would be much better.JoeThomas Kelly wrote: A couple of months ago a post suggested using a refrigerator compressor as a vacuum pump. I just accidentally destroyed the refrigerator that I had been using for my "kegs" of homebrewed beer. The compressor still works. Will it work as a vacuum pump on my processor? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
Robert, Thank you for your very logical, succinct, insightful, and thoughtful assertions. Very refreshing. Dave Buck - Original Message - From: robert and benita rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra Joe Street wrote: Fillings do not contain depleted uranium and DU when it vaporizes on impact and oxidizes into uranium trioxide is found to be a nano powder which is something like 100,000 to 1 meeelion times more toxic than DU is in a macro scale. Gulf war syndrom has nothing to do with mercury in fillings or vaccines. I understand that, but I don't think you're grasping my point. There is a VERY large percentage of the overall population walking around with dental amalgams, and a cohort of professionals that have been working with this material for decades. Yet there is no study that supports negative health impacts within that population that can be directly linked to mercury in dental fillings. But didn't I read years ago that there is a very high suicide rate among dentists? Can that impact be isolated to mercury exposure? And you are asking why we don't see wide spread health effects? But these people are saying that many wide spread problems ARE thought to be linked to mecury. The cause / effect linkage breaks down when examined across the population. Now, I TRY to be open minded about this . . . We once took our youngest son to an naturopath (who came highly recommended) because he'd developed a skin rash. The naturopath hooked him up to a machine that measured electrical resistance in his skin and diagnosed my son with mercury poisoning. I asked: Where did he get exposed to mercury? Eating shellfish, the doctor responded. But we don't EVER eat shellfish, and the only other fish we eat is salmon that we catch ourselves in the Fraser River. Well, then it's amalgam fillings. He doesn't HAVE any fillings, I protested. Does your wife? he asked. Yes, I replied. Then he was exposed in utero. Mind you, the boy was six years old when this rash appeared. Heavy metals are excreted in sweat, and like every other normal boy, my son plays hard enough to often work himself into a lather. So, I was supposed to believe that this skin rash he developed came from in utero exposure to mercury from my sweetheart's amalgam fillings, even though SIX YEARS had passed since his birth, and he'd sweat regularly enough to warrant at least one bath per day. My wife doesn't suffer from skin rashes and neither do I, yet both of us have had amalgam fillings in our teeth for many years. So my point in this, is that just because someone believes in a cause / effect relationship doesn't mean it actually exists. People used to burn or drown women as witches on unsubstantiated claims. When I hear complaints about mercury in dental fillings, these are normally accompanied by testimonials put forth as evidence for the veracity of the claim. But why are those testimonials more valid than my own experience? And why can't people who believe in this kind of thing answer the basic question of: Why do we not see widespread, consistent impacts across a population that has been exposed to mercury in dental amalgams for decades? Yes, we should be use the precautionary principle. Yes, we should try to limit our exposure to things we know are dangerous. But let's be careful about drawing unsubstantiated conclusions, too. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] mercury was Imaginal Cells by Deepak Chopra
Joe Street wrote: Hi Robert; Yeah I got your point. My point was that people are making claims ( please for the moment don't pull a 'show me the data' just for argument's sake allow me this for a moment) they are making claims that just maybe a large upswing in the occurrance of certain diseases may be related to long term effects of low level exposure to certain toxins, mercury being one of the suspects. Sure it's complicated by rising levels of all kinds of unhealthy things in trace concentrations in our environment, the air we breathe and the water we drink, the food supply. The overall impact of environmental insults is very difficult to determine. As Keith pointed out, the SYNERGY of these chemicals may be related to a host of human ills, and our methods for identifying cause / effect relationships remains weak in many cases. But saying a negative correlation exists simply because I THINK it exists smacks of superstition. I grew up in Los Angeles during the 1960's, and I remember how TERRIBLE the air was back then. It burned my eyes and made me short of breath. It killed the trees in the Angeles National Forest and caused serious trouble for kids and elderly folk with asthma. Yet the auto makers refused to accept the correlation between car exhaust and smog. There were scientific studies and public hearings, court cases and a flurry of media attention before the state finally FORCED auto makers to address the issue. Without evidence, however, nothing would have changed. The same type of problem exists on your end of the continent with respect to pollution from factories and refineries. We have a huge backlog of investigating to do with respect to the garbage we're putting into our air, water, food and environment. But labeling a whole host of health problems on dental fillings serves no purpose but to make concerns over environmental problems sound like the rantings of Inquisitors hunting witches. Maybe that's the big picture here. Check with fisheries on the guidelines for those fish you are pulling out of the Fraser for example. So maybe the body of evidence is massive and right there in front of us. Questionmark. Check out what this SFU paper has to say about mercury levels in the Fraser watershed and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) the ones that can slip into your DNA helix and have fun with your cellular reproduction. http://www.rem.sfu.ca/FRAP/aquae.pdf Ugh! Now I'm not going to be able sleep tonight! (insert sarcastic tone) Thanks a lot, Joe . . . : - ) Adult salmon don't eat on their way back to spawn, but their offspring are certainly exposed to toxins in the water as they grow and move out to the sea. Moreover, the problem of biomagnification ensures that whatever it is we're dumping into the air and water will come back to haunt us in our food. All of these things play a role I am certain but the real world is not a closed carefully controlled lab environment so what can be said in a scientific manner? Indeed, it's not. That's one reason to avoid putting unnatural substances into the environment, or increasing the concentrations of substances known to cause us harm. I am reminded of post docs here in my lab who run plasma processes that have several variables that are wildly out of control and while they tweak one of those variables and they get one device on their wafer out of a hundred at the end which has a desireable characteristic they then assume it is due to their matrix of values for this one variable and not to some chance confluence of uncontrolled parameters. They realize it later ( after they have published) that they have the devils own time trying to reproduce it! ROFL. Are you going to put a bunch of humans in a cage and control everything they are exposed to over their lifetime? When you hear that something you have been eating, drinking, or smoking is potentially harmful do you stop consuming it, or do you wait to get sick so you have your own personal data? How fanatic do you need to be in your adherence to the dogma of the church of reason? Ah, but I've been attending that church for so long, it's habitual now! It's very hard to escape the influence of education and environment. (impact of mercury exposure) ISOLATED? No, not beyond a reasonable doubt, not out here in the real, complicated world. Maybe in a 50 year lab experiment with real human subjects, or maybe with rats that have an 80 year life expectancy if they existed. We've got several generations of human beings exposed to mercury amalgams now. It's a HUGE population sample. If there was a direct, causal relationship between amalgams and health problems, it should be showing up by this point. I simply don't buy the conspiracy theory that the dental associations are trying to cover up some heinous truth and suppress data concerning amalgam fillings. There are other materials used to fill holes in teeth, including porcelain and gold, which are inert,
Re: [Biofuel] I need some advice
On 11/6/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The obvious answer is that if you make fuel you will be able to put it in the car to go buy the parts you need to finish the reactor! ;) Yeah, I think I'll just start into making some fuel. I'm going to use these initials trial to heat the house but, that's just as important as finishing the reactor. I probably don't have much of choice either though - some of the containers have been banged around a bit and have developed leaks. I think the oil might have been too hot when place info the containers. Most of the oil looks pretty good, though. Some of it doesn't even look used. A couple of local-ish folks have responded. If any of you have a good resource for methanol, I seem to have misplaced mine. Thanks to all that have responded,Take care,KenLancaster County, PA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump
Chris Tan wrote: Yes it will. Just make sure that your vacuum tank can take it. I made one a month ago and I crumpled a 12gal guage16 stainless steel tank=) But it was a lot of fun doing it. Best, Chris _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 8:45 AM To: biofuel Subject: [Biofuel] Refrig. Compressor as a Vacuum Pump A couple of months ago a post suggested using a refrigerator compressor as a vacuum pump. I just accidentally destroyed the refrigerator that I had been using for my kegs of homebrewed beer. The compressor still works. Will it work as a vacuum pump on my processor? Tom [snip] Whilst we're talking about refrig compressors, I scored a air conditioner, the type that hang out of the window, the other morning whilst out walking the dog. My initial thought was to use the heat exchanger, the thing with all the fins, in the methanol recovery as my condenser and then I thought about the compressor - I would assume that the compressor in an air con would be basically the same as a refrigerator? Then I also thought that there is also a fan in there which is driven by an electric motor - this could become my stirrer for the methoxide. Anyone see any problems with this train of thought? The other thing that I noticed recently is the 10-20l drums/tanks/canisters that are used to hold the soft-drink syrup that bars use, we call it post mix in Australia, which is then mixed and dispensed via taps or a hose arrangement. From my memories back when I used to do cellars in pubs, these canisters have an inlet for CO2, terminating just inside the top, an outlet for the syrup which goes right to the bottom of the canister and also a small access port on the top that can be opened. I have a feeling this would make a perfect methoxide mixer, in conjunction with a pump and also a methanol trap, a separate canister that is, for the methanol recovery stage. Anyone had a look at these or any thoughts? Regards, Andrew ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Passive solar home
Juan Boveda wrote: Hello Robert. Hola, Juan! Around here for some seldom used barbecues chimney set up is made simple with those ceramic rain tubes around 10 - 25 cm in diameter and 1 meter long made with a connecting bigger end, they are glued together with mortar even with red earth (Brazilian Parana State type) mixed with sugarcane syrup. Parana is where my father was born! They never corrode and if they are made form some good clay they do not crack after periods of frequents fire up and shut downs the only thing to take care is to start the fire slowly to give it time for thermal dilatation. That sounds like an inexpensive option. I hope your building codes do not classify this as a forbidden type of ceramic chimney. It could be a cheaper solution to your problem. Everything up here has to be CSA approved, and I don't think that kind of chimney would qualify. Fire insurance would be the real sticking point in this case. Another factor to consider, is that our boiler's corrosion problem was also eating at the heat exchanger and boiler itself. I need to keep checking on it every once in awhile just to make sure everything is working properly. But yours is an idea worth investigating. Thanks for the advice! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Patenting Life Forms should be outlawed.
Hi Ken ; If someone developed a genetically modified plant that would grow well in marginal areas and produced high quality vegetable oil, that could be easily extracted, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Or for that matter, if someone developed a plant that grew well in marginal areas and contained high-quality protein, low glycemic carbohydrates, and many needed trace nutrients, would that be a good thing or a bad thing? This is the cruel hoax and seduction. Taken in isolation of course it is a good thing, but the problem is it is never in isolation. How many tests and failures were needed to make this one success? What was the total cost to the earth? How many crops needed to be destroyed? How many small farmers put out of business or committed suicide? How many other life forms (birds, animals, fish, people, viruses, bacteria, etc) were affected or decimated (or made more dangerous)? And your case is only hypothetical wishful thinking for the future. The failures are here already. I should have added the failures and suicides are already here. Furthermore, the question is not whether this is a good thing or not, the question is whether it should receive patent protection or not. What if I add to this fantastic oil and protein plant the fact that is has very small seeds which can be carried everywhere by wind, water, train, ship, and combine. Then we add that it is a strong growing plant which tends to overgrow the existing vegetation. Then the developers of this plant ride around the country and spread seeds everywhere. Seed is spread worldwide even against the wishes of many nations. Private household farm crops are overtaken by this plant and destroyed worldwide. Commercial farm crops are overgrown by this plant and on top of that need to pay patent licensing fees (as well as lawyer and court costs if they choose to fight). Then we add that the developers of this plant expect very high patent fees, and the courts agree (in other words farms are forced to pay or close). Still think it should have patent protection? BR Peter G. Thailand Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
