Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze
Doug, I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter dumpster divers. You're probably right. I thought it might at least be more difficult to remove the barrel/WVO than just picking up the 18L containers. Of course it also makes it more difficult for me too. ... by claiming ownership, you would be making yourself liable. Hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the reply, Tom - Original Message - From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter dumpster divers. The only down sides I could imagine are; that by claiming ownership, you would be making yourself liable. For example if the oil would happen to leak into the environment for any reason, you may be held responsible for the costs of cleanup. A cost that could get very high if the WVO ever got onto water. As it is now the restaurants' liability insurance should cover it, but I'm sure a smile will come across the insurance adjustor's face the moment they see a property of label of someone other than their insured party. Rural or not the label may make responsible for any regulations your state may have regarding WVO storage, collection,disposal. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello, Is there any down side to placing a small barrel (15 or 30 gal/ ~ 55 or 115L) at restaurants for them to put their WVO in? I ask because I am finding increased hijacking of my WVO. This despite owners assuring me that they tell anyone who asks for the WVO: No. We already have someone picking it up (me). The restaurants I collect from have a nice, friendly, but informal relationship. They put plastic containers (cubies) out for me. I pick them up once a week. I noticed a plastic WVO barrel beside an veg oil dumpster that I used to pump oil from when I ran short. The chef said they put it in the barrel for a local guy. The WVO in the barrel seems to be left untouched. It doesn't have a label. I thought a label like Property of T Kelly might discourage hijackers . or does it just alert the powers that be to come bust my chops? I live in rural New York (USA). Comments appreciated, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Good use for glycerine
Chris, I have a small, experimental processor that would probably fit the bill for mixing the WVO and glycerine, but I'm going to use it to try the two stage acid - base process first. Two stage acid - base would allow me to use any WVO w/o treating it. Since the FFAs are converted to BD rather than to soap, there should be a higher yield and less soap in the wash. There should also be less soap settling out in the glycerine. I compost my glycerine and have the very distinct impression that glycerine that has been split from the FFAs (soap gone) composts better than glycerine that contains the soaps. This, even if the glycerine cocktail is neutralized before composting. Thanks for the info . Best to You, Tom - Original Message - From: Chris Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:02 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Good use for glycerine Hi Tom, We use an ordinary 1/2 hp clear water pump with two inlet pipes to suck in glycerine and wvo. I just adjust the inlet openings to regulate the mixing. We let it settle in a dedicated separate tank for about the same time as you would settle glycerine from BD but I reckon longer is better because of the viscosity of wvo. Thank you for the kind words. Best, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:27 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Good use for glycerine Chris, I'm glad to hear from you. Sorry it took me so long to respond to your original post. Your post caught my interest. I did my tests and tried to respond, but I have been having problems with my ISP and little time to resolve them. I have plenty of glycerine cocktail. My interest was not only in de-watering my WVO and neutralizing FFAs, but in lowering the pH of my glycerine, which I compost. A few questions: - How do you mix the WVO and glycerin? - Is the settling time similar to that of glycerin from BD? - Do you have a settling tank specifically for settling the glycerin from the WVO? Nice website. http://www.freewebs.com/easybiodiesel/ Keep up the good work! Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze
On Dec 16, 2007 7:22 AM, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug, I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter dumpster divers. Depends on what the label said... if it made it clear that another homebrewer was collecting the oil, it might be respected, but if it appeared that some large corporation was collecting the oil, probably not. The food stores here have actually locked their dumpsters at times, and it has not significantly deterred people from getting fresh veggies from them, but it did increase incidents of vandalism of the dumpsters, and I know quite a few people who used to go shopping both inside the store and in the dumpster, and now they refuse to shop inside the store. You're probably right. I thought it might at least be more difficult to remove the barrel/WVO than just picking up the 18L containers. Of course it also makes it more difficult for me too. ... by claiming ownership, you would be making yourself liable. Hadn't thought of that. Thanks for the reply, Tom - Original Message - From: Doug Younker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WVO squeeze I would really doubt a label on the barrel would deter dumpster divers. The only down sides I could imagine are; that by claiming ownership, you would be making yourself liable. For example if the oil would happen to leak into the environment for any reason, you may be held responsible for the costs of cleanup. A cost that could get very high if the WVO ever got onto water. As it is now the restaurants' liability insurance should cover it, but I'm sure a smile will come across the insurance adjustor's face the moment they see a property of label of someone other than their insured party. Rural or not the label may make responsible for any regulations your state may have regarding WVO storage, collection,disposal. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. Thomas Kelly wrote: Hello, Is there any down side to placing a small barrel (15 or 30 gal/ ~ 55 or 115L) at restaurants for them to put their WVO in? I ask because I am finding increased hijacking of my WVO. This despite owners assuring me that they tell anyone who asks for the WVO: No. We already have someone picking it up (me). The restaurants I collect from have a nice, friendly, but informal relationship. They put plastic containers (cubies) out for me. I pick them up once a week. I noticed a plastic WVO barrel beside an veg oil dumpster that I used to pump oil from when I ran short. The chef said they put it in the barrel for a local guy. The WVO in the barrel seems to be left untouched. It doesn't have a label. I thought a label like Property of T Kelly might discourage hijackers . or does it just alert the powers that be to come bust my chops? I live in rural New York (USA). Comments appreciated, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] David Blume debunks Pimentel
From David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas - Fueling an Ethanol Revolution for the 21st Century http://permaculture.com/ -- Chapter 2 Busting the myths Myth #1: It Takes More Energy to Produce Alcohol than You Get from It! If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers. -- Thomas Pynchon Most research done on ethanol over the past 25 years has been on the topic of energy returned on energy invested (EROEI), or energy balance. In Appendix A, we detail how public discussion of this issue has been dominated by the American Petroleum Institute's aggressive distribution of the work of Cornell professor David Pimentel and his numerous studies. We cite his distortion of key calculations, his unfamiliarity with farming in general, his ignoring of studies from Brazil that disagree with him, and his poor understanding of the value of co-products and their contribution to an accurate portrayal of energy accounting in the ethanol manufacturing process. In fact, he stands virtually alone in portraying alcohol as having an EROEI that is negative -- producing less energy than is used in its production (see Appendix A, Figure A-2). In fact, it's oil that has a negative EROEI. Because oil is both the raw material and the energy source for production of gasoline, it comes out to about 20% negative. That's just common sense; some of the oil is itself used up in the process of refining and delivering it (from the Persian Gulf, a distance of 11,000 miles in tanker travel). As Dr. Barry Commoner of the Center for the Biology of Natural Systems once said, It's always possible to do a good thing stupidly, [1] and some existing scenarios for making alcohol on a grand scale prove just that. However, the most exhaustive (and least-cited) study on the energy balance, by Isaias de Carvalho Macedo of Brazil, shows an alcohol energy return of more than eight units of output for every unit of input -- and this study accounts for everything right down to smelting the ore to make the steel for tractors. [2] But perhaps there's a more important measurement to consider than EROEI. What is the energy return for fossil fuel energy input? Using this criterion, the energy returned from alcohol plants per fossil energy input is much higher. Since the Brazilian system supplies almost all of its energy from biomass, the ratio of return could be positive by hundreds to one. [3] Endnotes 1. The Plow Boy Interview, Mother Earth News, March/April 1990 (www.motherearthnews.com/Nature_and_Environment/1990_March_April/The_Plowboy_Interview). 2. Isaias de Carvalho Macedo, Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Energy Balances in Bio-Ethanol Production and Utilization in Brazil, Biomass and Bioenergy 14:1 (1998), 77-81. 3. Larry Rohter, With Big Boost from Sugar Cane, Brazil Is Satisfying Its Fuel Needs, New York Times, April 10, 2006, Sec. Al. -- APPENDIX A ETHANOL AND EROEI: HOW THE DEBATE HAS BEEN DOMINATED BY ONE VIEW FOR 25 YEARS, DAVID PIMENTEL AND, IN RECENT YEARS, TAD PATZEK HAVE BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACADEMIC BASIS FOR MOST OF THE ANTI-ETHANOL SENSIBILITIES IN THE MAINSTREAM PRESS. - Fig. A-1 Dr. Pimentel's tractor. This enormous 7000 series John Deere is a close match to the seven-ton tractor in Dr. Pimentel's 2005 study. It can pull a 12-row corn planter that could plant the entire farm in under four hours (in air-conditioned comfort). Tractors of this size are used on farms up to 25 times the size of the farm described in Dr. Pimentel's study. - For 25 years, David Pimentel, Ph.D. at Cornell University, and, in recent years, Tad Patzek, Ph.D. at the University of California, Berkeley, have been responsible for the academic basis for most of the anti-ethanol sensibilities in the mainstream press, managing perceptions that have even leaked into Hollywood television (a 2005 episode of The West Wing was an example). Although dismissed by academics in the field, their studies continue to receive extensive coverage in both business and environmental circles. Political realities today cannot reverse the damage done. Pimentel, now approaching 80 years of age, is a darling of the Peak Oil movement. He and Dr. Patzek have been essentially alone in publishing studies alleging that production of alcohol fuel, among other things: - Has a negative energy balance; - Is an unethical use of food; - Pollutes the air; - Costs the consumer money via subsidies; - Takes 61% more fuel to go the same number of miles; - Produces 13 gallons of sewage for every gallon of alcohol produced. Dr. Pimentel is an entomologist, a studier of bugs, and Dr. Patzek is a physicist and engineer. Neither of them is trained in ecology. So they are straying far afield. This was amply borne out in their recent study [l] when both co-authors failed to catch their misuse of net primary productivity, a very basic concept in describing world photosynthesis. [2] In doing so, both also understate the photosynthetic
[Biofuel] Did David Pimentel win?
Hello all It seems obvious that organic farms should be producing their own renewable fuel and energy rather than using fossil fuels, but I think very few of them do so, at least in the industrialised countries. It's only a matter of time before locavore-style green consumers who buy their produce start asking embarrassing questions about that, if they aren't asking already - that's the way the dots connect. Here at the Biofuel list we made the connection between biofuels and organic farming seven years ago, they're part of the same picture. But the Biofuel list an exception. Elsewhere, biofuels have become separated from sustainability issues, and shoved aside, especially in sustainable farming, largely because of all the bad press in the last couple of years over the food vs fuels fracas and the confusion of biofuels with Agrofuels. Typically, even before all the fuss over food vs fuel started, one of the sustainable agriculture leading lights announced at a sust-ag list that he'd done a lot of research on biofuels issues and had put it all on a web page as a convenient resource for sust-ag people. He started off by quoting Professor David Pimentel on ethanol, and it didn't get any better after that. Yet any researcher can easily establish that Pimentel's data is wrong. Pimentel knows it's wrong, yet he keeps on and on using it. More here: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? And here: http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=Pimentel[EMAIL PROTECTED] Pimentel But people believe him anyway. For some reason they want to believe him. This organic disconnect needs fixing, though I'm not sure how. We often get emails at Journey to Forever from farmers, I got one today, I get quite a few like this: Been studing the website and gathering up parts to make my first test batch. Also finding parts to build a 5 gallon mini-processor once I am satisfied with the test batches... Went to town today and bought 5 gallons of new vegetable oil to start experimenting with, hopefully things work out. The fuel prices here in North Dakota are out of control, for a couple days this fall during harvest I couldn't get fuel to finish with the corn harvest. So its time to start being self-reliant. Thanks for the website, its amazing how much good information is here. I don't think he's an organic farmer, it sounded more like the usual chemicalised GMO monocrop for ADM or Cargill. Maybe not though. Anyway now he's on the road to making biodiesel. Since it's allegedly a sustainable and renewable fuel, it might set him to thinking about a few other things, as it often tends to do. He might stumble on some of the other good information at the Journey to Forever website and discover sustainable farming there too. There aren't too many web resources that cover both subjects. Most biofuels sites ignore sustainable farming, though if the crops aren't sustainably grown it won't be sustainable fuel, as they usually claim. And at sustainable farming sites they hate biofuels. One result of the split: ... We don't have much sympathy for the Americans griping about their gas prices, I'm afraid, says Ruth Bridger with the British Automobile Association. The prices here are so high, farmer Todd Cameron-Clarke is worried. He logs 600 miles a week, taking his organic meat to market. It's horrific, he says. You're finding now we're having to increase our prices to try and maintain the same margins we had last week. -- From Think you overpay for gas in the U.S.? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12598777/ How much fossil-fuel does Todd Cameron-Clarke use to run his organic farm, one wonders. Shouldn't it be none at all? This is what Jonathan Dimbleby, the president of the Soil Association, the original organic farming association and Britain's largest organic certifiers, told Reuters about biofuels: Dimbleby also expressed reservations about biofuels, particularly the rapid expansion of the use of maize in the United States for ethanol production. I think it is quite disturbing in the US that a huge proportion of the land is given out to biofuels. I think it is an avoidance of the problem (caused by diminishing oil supplies), he said. Dimbleby said biofuels might have a role to play in some parts of the world, adding: I just don't think we should be carried away. -- From INTERVIEW - Organic Farming Seen Here to Stay http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/40019/story.htm He hasn't figured out the difference yet between Agrofuels and biofuels. Again, Agrofuels are the same as all agribusiness crops, industrialised monocrops that guzzle fossil-fuels, spew out greenhouse gases, wreck the environment and are unsustainable in every way. Biofuels are essentially local, small and beautiful. Like organic farms. You'd think Mr Dimbleby should know that by now. But he's far from the only one who should know it but doesn't. Meanwhile Misha Gale-Sinex was complaining about it last week at
[Biofuel] Sustainable Subsoiler and Other Questions
Keith, I've recently bought 10 acres in France and am trying to plan an integrated farm (as well as get my largely irrelevant French farming qualifications required to be a farmer here). Anyway, one of my problems is that I have very compacted clay and need to use a subsoiler. I don't want to invest in a tractor. I saw that you used one on the farm in Japan. Was it a tractor-pulled one or using some other form of energy? Do non-tractor driven subsoilers even exist? I haven't been able to find any information on them, I was considering driving posts into the ground and pulling a subsoiler to the post using an engine fixed to the post and a very strong cord of some sort (it seems potentially dangerous). Has anybody looked into such alternative arrangements? Another question. I've been wondering what alternatives exist for feeding chickens. I think you were wondering about whether potatoes and their peelings could do the job. How did this go? I've planted fifteen chestnut trees at 10-metre spacing, as these seem to have the right protein-carbohydrate balance for poultry. Before I go and plant any more, I would like to verify their suitability as a food source for poultry. Anyone? If not, I guess we could eat them ourselves. I may use wood pyrolysis for running an old tractor if I actually do end up needing a tractor. Has anyone here actually managed it? Is the power really only 1/3 of what the engine would produce using petrol (or alcohol)? Does anyone here have any real-world experience of using this expedient technology? Thanks for the inspiring work (and answering the questions that I'm only just starting to ask myself), David _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sustainable Subsoiler and Other Questions
Just go down the road to one of your neighbors and ask if they have a ripper plow. Then ask to see if a bio diesel blend fuel is commercially available. It takes a large tractor to pull a ripper. The neighbor will either have the equipment or know of somebody locally that does. When you go approach that equipment owner it will be your opportunity to suggest an alternate fuel to burn when he does the work. I can guarantee that he will not be open to any fuel that will alter the validity of his equipment warranty. Considering weather, and ambient temperatures, He is going to want to use a winter blended diesel fuel if the work is going to be done this close to winter. If the ground isn't already frozen to a depth of 3 feet (one meter) like it is here, you may have to wait until spring to have the work done. It is easier (and safer) to hire it done than to attempt to do something makeshift like the rope and pulley system suggested. How will you manage to get along if a farm accident delivers a life changing broken bone or paralysis event to you or your helper? I can remember going to elementary school in the 60's and always see that one farm boy in every class that was missing fingers or something worse. Farm Safety is a huge concern. After you get the 10 acres soil prepped, you can land steward your property as you see fit. It is going to take less than 3 hours to rip 10 acres when using modern equipment. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
