Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 01:31:43 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question Hi Dawie That sounds hopeful. But wouldn't hammering along the edge thin the metal and expand it rather than compacting it? I'd thought of hammering in the middle to expand it, hopefully making the whole thing bulge out, but I didn't want to make the middle thinner, and weaker. Maybe if I started out with slightly thicker metal. And, indeed, heat it to light yellow. you shouldnt have to heat it. if you hammer in a spiral out from the center with a slightly convex hammer, and a flat dolly/anvil, you should get a dome after a time. you might have to make more than one pass to get the depth you want. bodywork takes forever, but if you keep at it, you can make some pretty cool stuff. That was my initial reaction at the time, so I went back and re-read. Indeed, one hammers onto a dolly on anvil where one wants the metal shrunk. Perhaps compacting the edge amounts to much the same thing as expanding the middle. I can't quite see it though. there are different hammer profiles for what you wish the metal to do. there are pick style hammers for fine detail, something that looks like an epically small meat tenderiser to shrink the metal, wedges for making corners, and various convex heads for expansion. there are almost as many dolly types to match. to buy them new in a kit isn't cheap, but if you look around maybe someone will sell an old set.. here's a tip sheet of how they work, and some types there are. http://www.metalshapers.org/tips/covell/ jason -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101105/33c57c2b/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Hi Jason Thanks, that's very instructive. It would certainly help if I had an anvil, but I don't. I couldn't get one in Hong Kong, and here in Japan I can't afford one, they're very expensive (nothing's cheap in Japan) (except junk), and I've never come across a 2nd-hand one. I suppose metal workshops in 3rd World rural towns do have anvils. I do have a good selection of hammers though, maybe a dozen or so different types. Instead of an anvil I use a 15-inch-long section of 12-inch rolled steel joist, not ideal, but it's useful, eg: http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/discblades.jpg - flattening rotovator blades to turn it into a small, powered, disc harrow (discovator?), which works very well. (I sharpened the blades and adjusted it so it only cuts 2-3 inches deep, chops everything up and mixes it in, without creating a clay pan.) Anyway, I think I might manage this without an anvil. Thanks again - all best Keith Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 01:31:43 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question Hi Dawie That sounds hopeful. But wouldn't hammering along the edge thin the metal and expand it rather than compacting it? I'd thought of hammering in the middle to expand it, hopefully making the whole thing bulge out, but I didn't want to make the middle thinner, and weaker. Maybe if I started out with slightly thicker metal. And, indeed, heat it to light yellow. you shouldnt have to heat it. if you hammer in a spiral out from the center with a slightly convex hammer, and a flat dolly/anvil, you should get a dome after a time. you might have to make more than one pass to get the depth you want. bodywork takes forever, but if you keep at it, you can make some pretty cool stuff. That was my initial reaction at the time, so I went back and re-read. Indeed, one hammers onto a dolly on anvil where one wants the metal shrunk. Perhaps compacting the edge amounts to much the same thing as expanding the middle. I can't quite see it though. there are different hammer profiles for what you wish the metal to do. there are pick style hammers for fine detail, something that looks like an epically small meat tenderiser to shrink the metal, wedges for making corners, and various convex heads for expansion. there are almost as many dolly types to match. to buy them new in a kit isn't cheap, but if you look around maybe someone will sell an old set.. here's a tip sheet of how they work, and some types there are. http://www.metalshapers.org/tips/covell/ jason ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The waterless toilet
I think these are the ones they have on Table Mountain in South Africa. This mountain is a environment friendly and every environment cause that can exist. The people of South Africa especially of Cape Town are very environment friendly and even protect the wild grass that grows on road sides. On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 1:28 AM, Bob Molloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The latest from South Africa where burgeoning squatter camps around the large cities have outgrown the municipal water supply;. www.enviro-loo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101103/64d281af/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Hi Keith, Can you make a depression in the end of a hardwood log and hammer the tin into shape with a ball hammer or a wooden shaper? Or if its to hard to make the dome could you use a long tin can or a length of tube with holes in it? mike. At 08:29 PM 3/11/2010, you wrote: Hi Dawie Keith It looks to me, unless I've misunderstood the failed attempt, that you want a worked sheetmetal piece rather than a casting or moulding. That's right. It's just thin metal, like a tin can. I think anything much heavier might upset the balance, which is just right - as you walk the cans more or less empty themselves, you don't have to tip them much, if at all. And then the trouble would be to get the domed shape into it: I take it the shape is necessary for the proper functioning of the rose. Yes, it widens the spread, and some of the water goes up, which extends the reach. The first thing that springs to mind is to scour vehicle breaker's yards for bits of body panels that have a suitable dome. As you only need a small piece an otherwise irreparable panel might do. A circular domed part of a car? I can't think of one, but I'll certainly have a look. Otherwise one could start with flat sheetmetal and work in the dome using traditional bodywork techniques. That's probably my problem, I don't know much about bodywork techniques. The problem is that one would be working in ungalvanized metal, though one could cold galv it afterwards. Or use some linseed oil, or this: Anti-rust Paint from Fish-Scraps - A short guide to the technique by M. L. Allen, Prince of Songkla University, Thailand http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/FishPaintJTF.pdf To form the dome, heat a metal disc until a light yellow oxide bloom appears. Then hammer along the edge of the disc to compact the metal. You'll probably have to heat, hammer, and let cool a few times to achieve the desired domed shape. I haven't done this myself but have read somewhat on the subject. That sounds hopeful. But wouldn't hammering along the edge thin the metal and expand it rather than compacting it? I'd thought of hammering in the middle to expand it, hopefully making the whole thing bulge out, but I didn't want to make the middle thinner, and weaker. Maybe if I started out with slightly thicker metal. And, indeed, heat it to light yellow. The holes would be made afterwards with an awl and hammer on a suitable wood block. Assembling the dome onto the collar and cone involves the same sort of techniques as the can itself, folded seams and solder. Yes, that's the easy part. That seems to me an appropriately crafts-based way to do it. I hope this helps. It does, in several ways. Thanks very much Dawie. Regards Keith -Dawie --- On Tue, 2/11/10, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] A metalworking question To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Tuesday, 2 November, 2010, 20:30 Hello all If you don't mind my asking, I could use a little help with some info at the Journey to Forever website. It's about Chinese watering cans, at this page: Appropriate technology Chinese watering cans http://journeytoforever.org/at_can.html High-power rose -- tricky to make, it says. We haven't figured out how to make new roses yet, but we're working on it. We're trying twin male/female moulds using our friend Graeme Morris's recipe for a rock-hard putty made of glass-fibre resin and lime -- that way we should be able to get the holes right. See Watering can plans for details. http://journeytoforever.org/at_canplan.html It didn't work. I've made eight of these cans over the years, and when I leave I abandon the cans themselves and take the roses with me. The cans seem to be ubiquitous, they're what veg oil, methanol and so on come in. This pair is the current version: http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/wcans.jpg The cans in action: http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/k-wc.jpg They're very efficient - using both cans at once, two passes gives you 1 a litre per sq yd/sq metre coverage. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Mike Fleetwood Canberra Australia and Sidcup UK. Worldwide email address is: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
a litre per sq yd/sq metre coverage. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Mike Fleetwood Canberra Australia and Sidcup UK. Worldwide email address is: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101105/b9ca61eb/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Keith It would certainly help if I had an anvil, but I don't. I couldn't get one in Hong Kong, and here in Japan I can't afford one, they're very expensive (nothing's cheap in Japan) (except junk), and I've never come across a 2nd-hand one. I suppose metal workshops in 3rd World rural towns do have anvils. A short piece of railway rail works well. Japan does a lot with railways: perhaps someone has an odd offcut? -D From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 5 November, 2010 12:39:42 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question Hi Jason Thanks, that's very instructive. It would certainly help if I had an anvil, but I don't. I couldn't get one in Hong Kong, and here in Japan I can't afford one, they're very expensive (nothing's cheap in Japan) (except junk), and I've never come across a 2nd-hand one. I suppose metal workshops in 3rd World rural towns do have anvils. I do have a good selection of hammers though, maybe a dozen or so different types. Instead of an anvil I use a 15-inch-long section of 12-inch rolled steel joist, not ideal, but it's useful, eg: http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/discblades.jpg - flattening rotovator blades to turn it into a small, powered, disc harrow (discovator?), which works very well. (I sharpened the blades and adjusted it so it only cuts 2-3 inches deep, chops everything up and mixes it in, without creating a clay pan.) Anyway, I think I might manage this without an anvil. Thanks again - all best Keith snip -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101105/667ec4fc/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Hello Ivan Since the ideas are getting more wild... ??? Somebody mention a car yank yard, from there you might be able to find an old hub cup. Not convex enough. How about cutting a circle out of a BIG PIPE, you would have half of the problem solve (one axes). That might help if it were thick metal, but it's not. If you must hammer (I think this is a manly project and you either like to hammer or just want to make it to perfection as a hobby) Think away then, you're welcome. I suppose some people have lots of time on their hands, but I'm not one of them, and no, I don't enjoy hammering, I don't have hobbies, and what's required is a practical solution, not perfection (which should be obvious). how about hammering against something semi hard so when you hammer it would gave it a little (the log idea or even thick leather) I don't see how that would help either. To tell you the truth I don't understand why does it have to be of a dome shape, I think it would work almost the same straight. I think the operative phrase there is I don't understand. Why don't you try it? You might get about a quarter of the coverage, which would mean four times as much work for the same result. Do you really think people are that dumb that they'd go to the considerable extra trouble of making domed roses if it had no effect? Unless they're just toys, ALL watering-can roses are convex and always have been, because it works much better that way. Happy tinkering, Looks like it needs some emphasis - it's not fun, it's not a game, it's work, it has a serious purpose. Keith Ivan -- From: Michael Fleetwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 6:39 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question Hi Keith, Can you make a depression in the end of a hardwood log and hammer the tin into shape with a ball hammer or a wooden shaper? Or if its to hard to make the dome could you use a long tin can or a length of tube with holes in it? mike. At 08:29 PM 3/11/2010, you wrote: Hi Dawie snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Hi Mike Hi Keith, Can you make a depression in the end of a hardwood log and hammer the tin into shape with a ball hammer or a wooden shaper? That's a good idea, I'll try it. Or if its to hard to make the dome could you use a long tin can or a length of tube with holes in it? Hm. Did you notice Geoffrey Herklots's description of the spout on the old wooden watering-cans? http://journeytoforever.org/at_can.html (40 catties of water is about 24 litres) That's clever. It would work well, next best thing to a good rose, I think. Hey, I'm really glad I asked, excellent responses. I'm sure I'll succeed now, probably with a combination of all the suggestions. Thanks very much! Regards Keith mike. At 08:29 PM 3/11/2010, you wrote: Hi Dawie Keith It looks to me, unless I've misunderstood the failed attempt, that you want a worked sheetmetal piece rather than a casting or moulding. That's right. It's just thin metal, like a tin can. I think anything much heavier might upset the balance, which is just right - as you walk the cans more or less empty themselves, you don't have to tip them much, if at all. And then the trouble would be to get the domed shape into it: I take it the shape is necessary for the proper functioning of the rose. Yes, it widens the spread, and some of the water goes up, which extends the reach. The first thing that springs to mind is to scour vehicle breaker's yards for bits of body panels that have a suitable dome. As you only need a small piece an otherwise irreparable panel might do. A circular domed part of a car? I can't think of one, but I'll certainly have a look. Otherwise one could start with flat sheetmetal and work in the dome using traditional bodywork techniques. That's probably my problem, I don't know much about bodywork techniques. The problem is that one would be working in ungalvanized metal, though one could cold galv it afterwards. Or use some linseed oil, or this: Anti-rust Paint from Fish-Scraps - A short guide to the technique by M. L. Allen, Prince of Songkla University, Thailand http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/FishPaintJTF.pdf To form the dome, heat a metal disc until a light yellow oxide bloom appears. Then hammer along the edge of the disc to compact the metal. You'll probably have to heat, hammer, and let cool a few times to achieve the desired domed shape. I haven't done this myself but have read somewhat on the subject. That sounds hopeful. But wouldn't hammering along the edge thin the metal and expand it rather than compacting it? I'd thought of hammering in the middle to expand it, hopefully making the whole thing bulge out, but I didn't want to make the middle thinner, and weaker. Maybe if I started out with slightly thicker metal. And, indeed, heat it to light yellow. The holes would be made afterwards with an awl and hammer on a suitable wood block. Assembling the dome onto the collar and cone involves the same sort of techniques as the can itself, folded seams and solder. Yes, that's the easy part. That seems to me an appropriately crafts-based way to do it. I hope this helps. It does, in several ways. Thanks very much Dawie. Regards Keith -Dawie --- On Tue, 2/11/10, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] A metalworking question To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Tuesday, 2 November, 2010, 20:30 Hello all If you don't mind my asking, I could use a little help with some info at the Journey to Forever website. It's about Chinese watering cans, at this page: Appropriate technology Chinese watering cans http://journeytoforever.org/at_can.html High-power rose -- tricky to make, it says. We haven't figured out how to make new roses yet, but we're working on it. We're trying twin male/female moulds using our friend Graeme Morris's recipe for a rock-hard putty made of glass-fibre resin and lime -- that way we should be able to get the holes right. See Watering can plans for details. http://journeytoforever.org/at_canplan.html It didn't work. I've made eight of these cans over the years, and when I leave I abandon the cans themselves and take the roses with me. The cans seem to be ubiquitous, they're what veg oil, methanol and so on come in. This pair is the current version: http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/wcans.jpg The cans in action: http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/k-wc.jpg They're very efficient - using both cans at once, two passes gives you 1 a litre per sq yd/sq metre coverage. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Hi Keith; If I had to make something like that I would look around for something that already had the shape and see if I could modify it to work. There are metal bowls for example. I have some stainless ones in my kitchen. There is a flat but I would guess that it is small enough and in the center it shouldn't make so much of a difference. This would require only a pattern of holes to be drilled and the bowl could be soldered or epoxied on to an appropriate sized funnel to adapt to the water can?? BTW if you used a yoke and two ropes the cans could be bigger meaning less trips or you could go with the rose/funnel on the end of two flex hoses and a back mounted tank. The handles on the funnels could be put to use then for directing the flow. I've seen barrel packs made for canoeing which were just 20 litre barrels with a harness made to fit them. Way less tiring to carry a load on your back than arms. A plastic bowl could be welded to a funnel with a heat gun and pliers to crimp the hot plastic and then you wouldn't have the glue/solder issue and it could be all made from recycled stuff. I'm just sayin'you did say to think outside of the box ( err...can) right? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Hi Joe Hi Keith; If I had to make something like that I would look around for something that already had the shape and see if I could modify it to work. I've been doing that for 28 years! There are metal bowls for example. I have some stainless ones in my kitchen. There is a flat but I would guess that it is small enough and in the center it shouldn't make so much of a difference. This would require only a pattern of holes to be drilled and the bowl could be soldered or epoxied on to an appropriate sized funnel to adapt to the water can?? The funnel is easy enough to make, the bit that fits over the end of the spout, and the bit that expands out to the rose is also easy. I have some stainless steel pet feed bowls we use for water for nesting ducks, which would almost do, but the flat is a bit too big, it would make a difference. My focus in this, and the focus of the Chinese watering-cans web page, isn't to make roses for myself, it's a guide for other people to make them, especially poor farmers in 3rd World rural communities. Not only them, but that's the bottom line. So what I can find around the place and adapt might not have much relevance to their situation. For instance, I've looked at the ball in ball-cock valves in flush toilets, but I don't think you find many flush toilets in such places. Or I hope not anyway. BTW if you used a yoke and two ropes the cans could be bigger meaning less trips or you could go with the rose/funnel on the end of two flex hoses and a back mounted tank. The handles on the funnels could be put to use then for directing the flow. I've seen barrel packs made for canoeing which were just 20 litre barrels with a harness made to fit them. Way less tiring to carry a load on your back than arms. A plastic bowl could be welded to a funnel with a heat gun and pliers to crimp the hot plastic and then you wouldn't have the glue/solder issue and it could be all made from recycled stuff. The Chinese farmers I worked with used yokes, but I could never get used to them. I've tried them here since, but I found just the two cans work better for me. You just grip the handles with your hands and let the cans hang at arm's length, you don't need to lift them. They're very well balanced, it's no effort to tip them forward. They more or less pour themselves. I'm not quite sure what you mean, whether it includes the cans too, or just the back-pack and two spouts with handles. Without the cans it wouldn't have anything like the same spread (it wouldn't throw the water), meaning more trips for refills. With the cans, I think you'd be carrying too much weight. If it were a toss-up between a heavier load and more walking back with empty cans, I'd go for more walking. When the cans are full, it's a 30-32 kg load, plus the weight of the cans, which don't weight much. Okay for a man, and okay for a woman too, but maybe only just. That's why I've been resisting ideas that mean any extra weight. The old wooden cans held 24 litres each, that's a 48 kg load plus the weight of the wood, too heavy, even with yokes to transfer much of the weight to your back. No wonder they abandoned them in favour of the metal cans. I'm just sayin'you did say to think outside of the box ( err...can) right? :-) Right. Thanks - best Keith Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
What I was picturing was a large tank carried on the back with two flexible hoses with the rose on the end of each. The head pressure from holding the water almost a meter above would result in a larger spray fan actually than you could get from a can. The handles for the roses could be designed like a kind of wand so that you could get the spray the right distance from the body if it turns out the fan is large enough to warrant that. I imagine it would. Joe Keith Addison wrote: SNIP I'm not quite sure what you mean, whether it includes the cans too, or just the back-pack and two spouts with handles. Without the cans it wouldn't have anything like the same spread (it wouldn't throw the water), meaning more trips for refills. With the cans, I think you'd be carrying too much weight. If it were a toss-up between a heavier load and more walking back with empty cans, I'd go for more walking. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Another idea that just popped up (pun intended) is what about adapting the ubiquitous PET pop bottle? I wonder with the right amount of heat if the end of one of those could be 'blown' in the way the glass blowers do to make a nice round end and then it could be easily adapted to fit on the can, hose or whatever. These things are everywhere and perhaps this could be done without a heat gun in third world conditions by more traditionl means? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Hello Joe I'm sceptical. First, it wouldn't be almost a meter as you say, it's barely even half a metre, unless you've figured a not-overcomplicated way of piping the water out of the top of the backpack tank instead of the bottom. Could be wrong, as ever, but even if it were a whole metre, I doubt it would come close to the throw from a Chinese-type watering can at its usual gentle tip angle, not even if you did clever things to optimise the flow-rate and pressure through the pipes to the roses. If you're still talking of a 20-litre tank, that would be the equivalent of two 10-litre watering cans, which is too small. That's the size of a gardener's can, great for watering the roses but not much use if you have a couple of hundred square metres to cover. The 15-16 litre size of a Chinese can is just right for that (but not much use for flowers). But I don't think a 32-litre tank would give a better throw either. I also don't think the handles for the roses would give any more control than you get with these well-balanced cans. Actually, I'd forgotten about it, but there was an old backpack sprayer here that I tried once. Pesticide sprays, yuk. There were a couple of them, one the usual kind with the motor and a wand with a nozzle, the other was older, no motor, gravity fed, quite light, with a 6-cm flexible hose ending in a sort of spray affair, which was a bit broken. I washed it all out carefully and got it to work, sort of, and tried it with compost tea, but the results weren't very happy. That was years ago. I haven't got it now or I'd take another look at it. I think we gave it to one of the recycling guys who do the rounds here, along with the other spray. and quite a lot of other stuff we didn't need. Well, it's an interesting idea, but I think it crosses the KISS barrier, and I reckon the Chinese cans would work better anyway. Thanks - all best Keith What I was picturing was a large tank carried on the back with two flexible hoses with the rose on the end of each. The head pressure from holding the water almost a meter above would result in a larger spray fan actually than you could get from a can. The handles for the roses could be designed like a kind of wand so that you could get the spray the right distance from the body if it turns out the fan is large enough to warrant that. I imagine it would. Joe Keith Addison wrote: SNIP I'm not quite sure what you mean, whether it includes the cans too, or just the back-pack and two spouts with handles. Without the cans it wouldn't have anything like the same spread (it wouldn't throw the water), meaning more trips for refills. With the cans, I think you'd be carrying too much weight. If it were a toss-up between a heavier load and more walking back with empty cans, I'd go for more walking. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Hi Dawie Keith It would certainly help if I had an anvil, but I don't. I couldn't get one in Hong Kong, and here in Japan I can't afford one, they're very expensive (nothing's cheap in Japan) (except junk), and I've never come across a 2nd-hand one. I suppose metal workshops in 3rd World rural towns do have anvils. A short piece of railway rail works well. Japan does a lot with railways: Indeed they do, very nice too. perhaps someone has an odd offcut?-D Yes - I do. :-/ I forgot about that. Hm. I obviously haven't been spending enough time in my workshop. That'll change soon. The bit of railway line is the other half of my half-assed RSJ wannabe anvil. I was very pleased when I found it. I've often used it. Last time I saw an anvil for sale was in a big toolshop in Kyoto, and beside it was a bit of railway line just like mine. I don't remember the price, but I remember saying Wow! Nothing's cheap in Japan. I just went to the workshop to check the rail line (it's there, good), and found something I didn't even know was there that would make a good rose for a Chinese watering can. It's a small wok, about 18 cm across. A bit too thick, but it would work, and it probably wouldn't be too difficult to beat it thinner, since it's already the right shape. I suppose metal workshops in rural towns in SE Asia could make woks as well as can roses. Me though, I couldn't have made a wok either. Maybe now I could. Um, it wasn't sloppy of me not to have noticed it before, by the way. You haven't seen my workshop. It's in an old shed at the back, with three rooms and two lofts containing a 100-year accumulation by thrifty village folk of anything that looked as if it might be useful some day. Many layers, full of hidden secrets. (But no anvil.) Thanks! Keith From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 5 November, 2010 12:39:42 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question Hi Jason Thanks, that's very instructive. It would certainly help if I had an anvil, but I don't. I couldn't get one in Hong Kong, and here in Japan I can't afford one, they're very expensive (nothing's cheap in Japan) (except junk), and I've never come across a 2nd-hand one. I suppose metal workshops in 3rd World rural towns do have anvils. I do have a good selection of hammers though, maybe a dozen or so different types. Instead of an anvil I use a 15-inch-long section of 12-inch rolled steel joist, not ideal, but it's useful, eg: http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/discblades.jpg - flattening rotovator blades to turn it into a small, powered, disc harrow (discovator?), which works very well. (I sharpened the blades and adjusted it so it only cuts 2-3 inches deep, chops everything up and mixes it in, without creating a clay pan.) Anyway, I think I might manage this without an anvil. Thanks again - all best Keith snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Dawie If you want to dome a disc shape put it over a soft material, and hammer the inside of the disc. In metalworking a soft base is usually a shot bag, but even a block of wood with a hollowed dish shape carved into it will work, or even on the end grain of a softwood that is flat. By hammering on the dolly you will stretch the material and not get what you want, and you do not even need heat. By hammering the inside will not make it weaker or even much thinner if you hammer off dolly. The largest amount of thinning is caused by on dolly work. Hope this helps Brian -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101105/54237484/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question
Hi Keith, Then the original solution I think is ingenious and simple, it might take a little try with the angle of the curvature of the small piece of metal but I if you have a welding machine would not be too difficult thru trial and error, and a lot less time consuming than making a rose. If you go with the rose, a pipe like a gutter would do and it is thin enough to be easily malleable. Regards, Ivan -- From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 8:56 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question Hello Ivan Since the ideas are getting more wild... ??? Somebody mention a car yank yard, from there you might be able to find an old hub cup. Not convex enough. How about cutting a circle out of a BIG PIPE, you would have half of the problem solve (one axes). That might help if it were thick metal, but it's not. If you must hammer (I think this is a manly project and you either like to hammer or just want to make it to perfection as a hobby) Think away then, you're welcome. I suppose some people have lots of time on their hands, but I'm not one of them, and no, I don't enjoy hammering, I don't have hobbies, and what's required is a practical solution, not perfection (which should be obvious). how about hammering against something semi hard so when you hammer it would gave it a little (the log idea or even thick leather) I don't see how that would help either. To tell you the truth I don't understand why does it have to be of a dome shape, I think it would work almost the same straight. I think the operative phrase there is I don't understand. Why don't you try it? You might get about a quarter of the coverage, which would mean four times as much work for the same result. Do you really think people are that dumb that they'd go to the considerable extra trouble of making domed roses if it had no effect? Unless they're just toys, ALL watering-can roses are convex and always have been, because it works much better that way. Happy tinkering, Looks like it needs some emphasis - it's not fun, it's not a game, it's work, it has a serious purpose. Keith Ivan -- From: Michael Fleetwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 6:39 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A metalworking question Hi Keith, Can you make a depression in the end of a hardwood log and hammer the tin into shape with a ball hammer or a wooden shaper? Or if its to hard to make the dome could you use a long tin can or a length of tube with holes in it? mike. At 08:29 PM 3/11/2010, you wrote: Hi Dawie snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
