[Biofuel] Bio diesel newbie q - How do I accurately measure 100+ litres of oil?

[Nigel Kelly]

I suspect this is a complete newbie question - but 
being a newbie - I feel entitled to ask.
 
ok - picture this - I've been out and done the 
decent thing - found myself a lot of Waste Veggie Oil that I want to convert to 
Bio Diesel.. I do the titration, and get the exact amount of NzOH to add to a 
litre... and now I need to multiply that by the amount of oil I 
have.
 
I expect to have approximately 100l... but how do I 
know... accurately? How accurate do I need to be in order to get a good 
result?
 
I have thought of setting up a simple balance beam, 
with a weight on one side the exactly equals 100l of oil, + the drum weight. I 
then add or tap off oil until I hit the exact 100l mark. There must be 
other/better/standard ways of doing it though?
 
Tips and answers very welcome!
Cheers
Nigel
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Re: [Biofuel] automating titration

[Nigel Kelly]

Cheers Joe,
 
I'm working small but I'm an automation guy. If it 
can be, I like to do it (with processes such as these anyway.
 
That being said - there's a common sense limit. No 
point in spending $5,000 on gear to automate it, if the task only takes 5 
minutes anyway...
 
NK

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 7:10 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] automating 
  titration
  Hi Nigel;Yes I meant keep it manual.  To what 
  advantage?  Well simplicity mostly. Automation IMHO does not offer much 
  advantage unless it is for commercial reasons.  If you are looking to do 
  large scale production then you have a different paradigm than me so we are 
  talking at odds anyway, but for small scale local production I would consider 
  automation to be more of a liability than an asset.  I have a fair bit of 
  experience with industrial automation of complex systems and in order for a 
  machine to carry out even modestly complex processes it takes a plethora of 
  feedback loops and interlocks for it all to work safely without screwing 
  up.  Just look at how much waste is often created by something as 
  'supposedly' simple as a network printer in realitynot a tree saver.  
  Just imagine the oopsies and wasted chemicals, and oil that will result from 
  trying to automate biodiesel production.  Even if it is only the 
  titration you want to automate, consider that more and more I am hearing about 
  people who take the titration kit to the field, to decide on site whether or 
  not to use oil as a feedstock rather than taking it home and finding out then 
  what you've got to deal with.  A completely automated titrator would be a 
  cool project to be sure but it would be more likely to constrain you to 
  bringing samples to the machine instead of the other way around.Just 
  my two cents.JoeNigel Kelly wrote:
  Sorry - I don't follow...

You mean do it manually? And if so - to what advantage?

- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] automating titration


  
I think you should 'manualize' the process.

Joe

Jason & Katie wrote:


  hi everyone, haven't been posting for a couple months (points to old ISP &
retches) but i was messing around in my head a few weeks ago and was
wondering if there was any simple formula that could be used to digitize 
and
automate a titration of oil as compared to lye for fry-grease diesel. i 
have
been trying to think of a way to do this so i can automate the entire
process, but have been coming up blank. any help would be appreciated.

thank you,
jason


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Re: [Biofuel] automating titration

[Nigel Kelly]

Sorry - I don't follow...

You mean do it manually? And if so - to what advantage?

- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] automating titration


>I think you should 'manualize' the process.
>
> Joe
>
> Jason & Katie wrote:
>
>>hi everyone, haven't been posting for a couple months (points to old ISP &
>>retches) but i was messing around in my head a few weeks ago and was
>>wondering if there was any simple formula that could be used to digitize 
>>and
>>automate a titration of oil as compared to lye for fry-grease diesel. i 
>>have
>>been trying to think of a way to do this so i can automate the entire
>>process, but have been coming up blank. any help would be appreciated.
>>
>>thank you,
>>jason
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] automating titration

[Nigel Kelly]

I'm similarly interested.

I have had thoughts about the way an electronic pH meter works (voltage 
developed on the probe - see "How a pH Meter Works" in 
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/chem.htm ) and somehow 
incorporating that into a stepped/delayd loop.

i.e. the initial pH Measure is very acid so add NaOH of measured quantity.. 
less a bit... and stir and stir... and wait...

resample - pH still a way out but amount has shifted, and the amount put in 
last time is known - the balance of NaOH can be calculated... put it in... 
less a bit... and stir... and sitr... and wait

Measure pH again - should be very close. Add last minute amount of Na OH and 
stir... and sit... etc

It'd be nice to work that into an automated process/mechanism...

- Original Message - 
From: "Jason & Katie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 3:53 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] automating titration


> hi everyone, haven't been posting for a couple months (points to old ISP &
> retches) but i was messing around in my head a few weeks ago and was
> wondering if there was any simple formula that could be used to digitize 
> and
> automate a titration of oil as compared to lye for fry-grease diesel. i 
> have
> been trying to think of a way to do this so i can automate the entire
> process, but have been coming up blank. any help would be appreciated.
>
> thank you,
> jason
>
>
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> messages):
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>
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] This is not a joke.

[Nigel Kelly]

Doug - I didn't mean it to offend - I HIGHLY 
commend what you're doing - I think it's brilliant. I'm just bringing a 
potential stumbling block to your awareness.
 
I'm wrapped to know there is someone passionate, 
with a global awareness, inside the US raising this issue. One of the challenges 
us "non Americans" have is to raise these very issues without being looked upon 
as complaining. So thank you.
 
I also note (and love) the Thomas Jefferson quote 
you put on one of your other messages.
 

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American 
revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of the lending 
insitutions and moneyed incorporations." 
-President Thomas Jefferson (a founder of America in 
condemnation of cartel power. 1743-1826)
 
Doug - I'm right behand the 
cause, the date still concerns me a little because of the confusion it could 
causeIf you can find people in the press to publicise what you're up to it'd be 
brilliant! Maybe some press coverage (if it's not already arranged) would help 
start some conversations across the country.
Good luck
Nigel

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Douglas 
  Smith 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 11:27 
  PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] This is not a 
  joke.
  
  
  On Mar 1, 2006, at 8:36 PM, Nigel Kelly wrote:
  
Let's face it - no-one's going to do anything like this... en masse 
on April 
1. I 
(for one) would expect it to be an April fools joke - I'm not 100% 
convinced that it's not right now.
  
  Take my word for it, it's not a joke.
  
  Snigger if you will, but who is doing anything else?
  
  This administration and what they have done to the world is not a joke 
  either.
  
  I'm mad as hell and I'm  not going to take it anymore with or 
  without Mr. Kelly.
  
  But I ask all others who have had enough to do it. What's to loose? 
  Oh..our country.
  
  April 1st. Be Counted. It's simple.
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Have you had enough? Cross-posted

[Nigel Kelly]

Let's face it - no-one's going to do anything like this... en masse on April 
1. I (for one) would expect it to be an April fools joke - I'm not 100% 
convinced that it's not right now.

Avoid that date, but give people time to get organised.


- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Have you had enough? Cross-posted


> Good on you Douglas, it shouldn't be out of place here, enough people
> have said similar things before now - after all, those on the list
> and on the planet who are not Americans had enough long ago and have
> been saying so rather loudly.
>
> But why wait to April 1? It looks as if you'll have nuked Iran by
> then, among other things. Don't just DO IT - do it NOW!
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
>>To those on this list who are Americans: When will he actually have
>>had enough.
>>
>>The Bush administration has been destroying our country at a very
>>rapid pace. Many of us have been asking ourselves from the first
>>stolen election in 2000 why we and the rest of this country are not
>>out in the streets screaming!! I'm tired of wondering. I feel as if
>>we're all waiting for someone else to do what we must.
>>
>>I read, and comment on the huffingtonpost. If you're not familiar
>>please visit
>>http://www.huffingtonpost.com and see
>>for yourself.
>>
>>I posted the following comments to the huffpost, and in keeping with
>>a promise contained in that post, and a request I make of others, I
>>am taking up the same subject here.
>>
>>Rather than recreate the thing, I will post the same here, including
>>the references to the huffpost. I know that the readers here are
>>bright enough to translate my statements and requests.
>>
>>In the spirit of the movie Network, and its "I'm mad as hell and I'm
>>not going to take it anymore." I give you this:
>>
>>Everyone keeps asking when the American people are going to have had
>>enough. When they are going to take to the streets, etc.
>>
>>Someone needs to say when. So I will:
>>
>>I'm requesting that ALL Americans who, like me, have had enough take
>>to the streets to be counted en masse!
>>
>>April 1st - yes, April Fools Day, will do. That Saturday afternoon
>>we must all go out with a sign to be counted...all of us...all
>>across the country! We need to have people outside everywhere anyone
>>looks. We don't need huge crowds in one place, we need people
>>everywhere!
>>
>>Wiill you join me? Will you e-mail everyone you have an e-mail
>>address for to join us? Will you put a sign in your window asking
>>others to join? Will you add this date and this action to all of
>>your HuffPost comments?
>>
>>I will be there to save my country. Will you?
>>
>>APRIL 1st! DO IT!
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Kiwi Biofuellers?

[Nigel Kelly]

Hi Charles,
 
I'm facing similar and just cracked it (for me 
anyway) - got in touch with a couple of guys racing stock cars etc - they buy 
Methanol in bulk and seem happy to sell it on. Anbout $1.70/litre is what I've 
been told... yet to get some, but then I have a few things to do re building a 
processor anyway.
 
Still sourcing things - but getting 
there!
NK

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Charles 
  List 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:43 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kiwi 
  Biofuellers?
  Hi Nigel
  
  I'm in Alexandra in South Island and I'm struggling with getting 
  methanol delivered- I seem to need a class 3 certification for the chemical 
  companies to deliver any to me and no-one seems to know how I go about getting 
  one!
  
  
  Any thoughts?
  
  Charles
  
  
  On 22/02/2006, at 2:28 PM, Nigel Kelly wrote:
  
Hi - newbie here, absolutely smitten with the ideas of 
Biofuel, and taking baby steps towards actually making some (lots of 
reading... and slow gathering of cheap parts for first biodiesel 
rig)
 
I'm in Auckland and would love to meet anyone doing 
this already, compare notes and thoughts etc.
 
Thanks
Nigel
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[Biofuel] Kiwi Biofuellers?

[Nigel Kelly]

Hi - newbie here, absolutely smitten with the ideas of 
Biofuel, and taking baby steps towards actually making some (lots of reading... 
and slow gathering of cheap parts for first biodiesel rig)
 
I'm in Auckland and would love to meet anyone doing this 
already, compare notes and thoughts etc.
 
Thanks
Nigel
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Re: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves

[Nigel Kelly]

As funny as that is - I see merit in it.

I'm new here, so some comments may be of "ignorance" - excuse them if they 
are ... but...

Is there a standard we can specify that meets and exceeds the various 
aspects of current certification testing? Take the most stringent of each 
apsect to be tested - viscosity, pH etc - and have a single, HIGHER standard 
which would mean anything meeting that standard automatically meets all the 
others.

This gives the biodieselers the "high ground". We can demonstrate we're 
happy to step up to the mark - in fact we're interested in exceeding it (we 
are... right?) Striving for perfection is an admirable thing - I also 
realise it's not a real worl thing... but as a guiding principle it's good.

Nigel


- Original Message - 
From: "Kenji James Fuse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:04 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Let's accredit ourselves


> Would any of you be willing to dub me a "lord of biodiesel' or something?
>
> Seriously, I think it would be a good idea if this list put together a
> dumb-ass 'certification' test so we could hang it on our walls and point
> to it should some
> regulatory agent come snooping around our setups threatening to shut us
> down.
>
> Because we are from all over the world, it would have the kind of
> untouchability of Amnesty, and good luck to a regulator trying to actually
> find out about the 'certificate'!
>
> I can feel you all already getting your feathers ruffled at this proposal.
> I think I'm
> going to try to put something together for the local co-op, so I would
> greatly appreciate all your critical feedback (but go easy on the
> insults).
>
> Kenji Fuse
>
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