Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Keith, Where is all this anger and aggression coming from? I think you let yourself down when you descend to comments like this: Hi Dermot That's all?? Umph. Hardly worth the effort. What other kind have there been Dermot? What kind of questions won't you try to respond to? And why don't you just respond to that, just as it is right there above? Your point is in tatters. Maybe you're eating too much red meat! From both, and others, and more recently various comments on your post on whether plants have emotions or not. There's been a lot of discussion, you can't just sidestep it. I haven't sidestepped anything. I've dealt with the research on plants having emotions and on the whole non-argument about not eating plants because they have feelings. Are you reading all the posts. See my replies to Andres and Marilyn on 27 Nov and 1 Dec. In the reply following this I will respond again to the points raised about plants and pain being a spurious argument against vegetarianism. For you to accuse someone of sidestepping issues is rich. When evidence of the sustainability of stockless farming is presented to you your reply is: Please don't ask me to criticise some of the Soil Association's more recent work, I can but I don't want to. When I pointed out some of the crude propaganda emanating from Sally Fallon's site you sidestepped it by commenting: You don't surprise me Dermot. Sorry we stop right there. You'll have to do better than that Keith. snip There is no way of proving that an agricultural system is sustainable. Yes there is. Sustainable means, by definition, that it can go on forever and it is obviously impossible to test that. It's not impossible. You can philosophise about what forever means, but it's demonstrable in practical terms. There is nothing philosophical about it. If you don't get the point that it is impossible to prove something is sustainable forever then there is little point discussing it. All we can say is that one system is more likely to be sustainable than another one. So I don't agree with your claim to have proved that animal farming systems are sustainable. I didn't claim to have proved it. What did you mean then when you said: It's not up to me to prove anything, already done that, it's up to you to disprove it, and I think you have some studying to do. snip I know you won't like this, but you're just not qualified to discuss this subject fully unless you've read the work of Weston A. Price. See: This is elitism in the extreme. You can't discuss anything unless you are qualified. Does this mean that one cannot take a position on nuclear power without being a nuclear engineer? Can you be anti-GMO without a PhD in Biochemistry? No, what you do is try to listen to the arguments from knowledgable people on both sides and then you make your decision. Sometimes if it is a very technical argument such as the nuclear power engineering then you may not understand the nuances of all the arguments so you have to base your view on somebody or some institution you trust. In the area of sustainable agriculture I place my trust in the SOIL ASSOCIATION and not in Sally Fallon or Weston. A. Price. As far as my arguments being in tatters goes, I think it is you who has the consistency problem in your line of reasoning. You assert that: It's unethical to kill ANYTHING for no good reason, unethical and not sustainable. Yet when you were asked if you would still eat animals if it were possible to have sustainable agriculture without them you replied, Yes. I think you need to do a lot more studying on the subject of ethics. Again I recommend PRACTICAL ETHICS by Peter Singer. snip Your view isn't wholistic, though you think it is. You're compartmenting living things into cubicles of your own devising. Life doesn't work like that. You are the one compartmenting living things into cubicles. You are saying that killing creatures who possess sentiency is ok once they don't happen to belong to YOUR species. How convenient. This type of thinking justified slavery in the past i.e. he doesn't belong to my race therefore it is ok to treat him as property. We call it racism now. She doesn't belong to my sex therefore it is ok to discriminate and opprerss her. We call it sexism now. Hopefully before long we will have more common use of the word speciesism. It is so pervasive in our society that it is almost invisible. Regards Dermot Donnelly ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Keith, Andres and Marilyn, I have tried to deal with the argument concerning plants and pain but I obviously haven't made myself clearly understood? Below please find a more comprehensive reply which comes from the book ANIMAL LIBERATION by Professor Peter Singer. SPECIESISM TODAY I have said that the difference between animals like deer - or pigs and chickens, for that matter - whom we ought not to think of harvesting, and crops like corn, which we may harvest, is that the animals are capable of feeling pleasure and pain, while the plants are not. At this point someone is bound to ask: How do we know that plants do not suffer? This objection may arise from a genuine concern for plants; but more often those raising it do not seriously contemplate extending consideration to plants if it should be shown that they suffer; instead they hope to show that if we were to act on the principle I have advocated we would have to stop eating plants as well as animals, and so would starve to death. The conclusion they draw is that if it is impossible to live without violating the principle of equal consideration, we need not bother about it at all, but may go on as we have always done, eating plants and animals. The objection is weak in both fact and logic. There is no reliable evidence that plants are capable of feeling pleasure or pain. Some years ago a popular book, The Secret Life of Plants, claimed that plants have all sorts of remarkable abilities, including the ability to read people's minds. The most striking experiments cited in the book were not carried out at serious research institutions, and attempts by researchers in major universities to repeat the experiments have failed to obtain any positive results. The book's claims have now been completely discredited. In the first chapter of this book I gave three distinct grounds for believing that nonhuman animals can feel pain: behavior, the nature of their nervous systems, and the evolutionary usefulness of pain. None of these gives us any reason to believe that plants feel pain. In the absence of scientifically credible experimental findings, there is no observable behavior that suggests pain; nothing resembling a central nervous system has been found in plants; and it is difficult to imagine why species that are incapable of moving away from a source of pain or using the perception of pain to avoid death in any other way should have evolved the capacity to feel pain. Therefore the belief that plants feel pain appears to be quite unjustified. So much for the factual basis of this objection. Now let us consider its logic. Assume that, improbable as it seems, researchers do turn up evidence suggesting that plants feel pain. It would still not follow that we may as well eat what we have always eaten. If we must inflict pain or starve, we would then have to choose the lesser evil. Presumably it would still be true that plants suffer less than animals, and therefore it would still be better to eat plants than to eat animals. Indeed this conclusion would follow even if plants were as sensitive as animals, since the inefficiency of meat production means that those who eat meat are responsible for the indirect destruction of at least ten times as many plants as are vegetarians! At this point, I admit, the argument becomes farcical, and I have pursued it this far only to show that those who raise this objection but fail to follow out its implications are really just looking for an excuse to go on eating meat. Regards Dermot Donnelly ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Keith, Thanks for the reply. I'm puzzled by: My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. You haven't really responded to what people have said about that. Your main concern seems to be with what's sentient and what's not. It's unethical to kill ANYTHING for no good reason, unethical and not sustainable. I'll try to respond to specific questions. Were they from you or from Andres? Regards Dermot ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Marilyn, The book you mention, The Secret Life of Plants by Peter Thomkins and Christopher Bird, was a bestseller over 20 years ago. It made all sorts of outlandish claims which were based on the scientific work of a Dr. Cleve Backster. It turns out that Backster was not in fact a scientist but a polygraph technician. Is that ironic or what? Unfortunately the scientific evidence didn't stand up to scrutiny as nobody else was able to replicate the results. Quite a few books were published debunking the original book but they were not bestsellers.The truth is pretty boring I'm afraid. Just google The Secret Life of Plants and debunk and you'll see what I mean. Regards Dermot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Hi Andres, You raised an interesting point below (on 3rd Oct, sorry for late reply)about my assertion that there is currently no reliable evidence to suggest that plants feel pain. snip I say wait a while, we'll find they do. Science advances slowly, with many stumbles along the road, and many dead ends as well. (Andres) snip I'm not saying the following is true, but someone told me about a book on the subject of plant pain called The Secret Life of Plants This book and other articles on plants tell of experiments that attached to laboratory plants a technology of the type used in lie detectors that is extremely sensitive to the tiniest movement. When a person burned the plant or harmed it in other ways it recoiled strongly. Later when that person would enter the room the plants would react the same way, but not to other people. Also, they attached these devices to people's plants in their homes and the people wrote down their feelings all day and noted the time. At the end of each day they compared the recorded feelings with the plant reactions recorded on the technology. They were amazed to see that plant movement aligned with certain emotions, even when the people were on a long trip. Google brings up over 87,000 sites on this topic if you want to hear from someone who knows something about this. I only know what I was told by a friend. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
and Omega 6 fatty acids and during the course of this show a Cambridge University professor, not a vegan or vegetarian, who had been studying vegan diet for thirty years was of the opinion that it was a very healthy diet if followed properly. I'm afraid I'd have to agree with what Dr.*Guillermo Romero Ibarrola*,who has a Ph.D in Nutrition from Cornell University, thinks of Sally Fallon: // Ms Fallon is not a nutritioni///st, IMHO she has very little understanding / /of research methodology a//nd of the subject matter, beyond wh///atever dogma she adheres to from the / /theories of Pottenger and P//rice. Regardless of which, she is making reckless and out of context / /analyses and claims based on //third party scientific evidence interpreted by her paid co-author. Ms. / /Fallon probably has some //valid things to contribute, but she does not help anyone by making biased / /generalizations from seco//ndary analysis of relative information. I might be mistaken, but as far / /as I know there is no piec//e of original research published by Ms. Fallon and her collegues. / // /To me she is just one more author trying to sell yet another cookbook //fad; IMO her merit comes // from her interest in natural farming, not from her understanding of //nutrition evidence. // // ///I would personally therefore take everything that is said on this site with a grain of salt. / / / /Regards Dermot Donnelly / // / / / I am not a friend of Ms Fallon, I once met her in a conference and I / /can not say that I was imp / /ressed by her comprehension of the evidence and data she used to support / /her tedious reading sessio / /n (conference). Further on, I was troubled by the way she dismissed / /questions with some unsustain / /ed claims and a constant recommendation to buy her book as the only way / /for her audience to find an / / answer. IMHO not a very professional approach, but effective marketing / /anyway. / / / / I see from your bio. that you are on the Board of Ms Fallon's foundation / /(W. Price F.) so that I / /must assume you are partial to her approach. / / / / Let me clear a point here: the bantering was not between Dr. Campbell / /and Ms. Fallon, it was be / /tween Ms. Fallon (mediated by Allan Balliet from BD-Now) and myself. Dr. / /Campbell sent some commen / /ts to me re Vit B12 and vegetarianism (which I posted to Sanet and sent to / /Mr Balliet to be posted / /in BD-Now), but Dr. Campbell refrained himself from reacting to Ms / /Fallon's name calling discourteo / /us attitude. / / / / I have a BS, MS and studies at PhD level in Nutriology (MS and PhD / /studies from Cornell U) and / /I am also sympathetic to alternative health approaches, Anthroposophy, / /Ayur-ved and Mexican traditi / /onal therapies. I am a Biodynamic gardener as well and have an active / /participation in the promot / /ion of agroecology in my Country. IMHO I have the credentials to judge / /this sort of information on / / my own. I do not need interpreters; I can understand the sources, but / /again my thanks for bringin / /g the above web sites to my awareness / / / / About the China study: Following Ms Fallon suggestion, I went to see the / /info avail at the W.Pric / /e F web site. There the author (?) mentions that the China study is / /inconclusive, but then uses da / /ta from Okinawa (from a different study, and experimental framework) to / /support his/her views on th / /e basis of both studies coming from Asia. Is that a valid comparison to / /you ?, IMO such thing i / /s absurd and manipulative. / / / / Here is the (mis)quote from Ms. Fallon's web site: Before we throw up / /our hands and decide that / / no conclusions can be made about diet and health in China, let us turn / /our attention to the mixed / /peoples of Okinawa http://www.westonaprice.org/food_in_china.htm / / / / / / If you have questions about the China study, I encourage you to send / /those to Dr. Campbell himsel / /f. I am sure that he will be able to give you an honest answer about the / /validity of the research / /claims he is making. ([EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:%20Sally%20Fallon/Colin%20Campbell[EMAIL PROTECTED])/ Note 1.from: Spedding, C.R.W., Agriculture and the citizen, 1996 area of farmland required to feed one person: _diet_ _(ha)_ conventional 0.32 vegetarian 0.14 vegan 0.07 from: Pimentel Pimentel, Food, Energy and Society, 1979 fossil fuel energy needed to feed one person under 1979 U.S. conditions: _diet_ _(MJ)_ conventional 142 vegetarian 80 vegan 41 ……… Prof C.R.W. Spedding, England's most eminent agricultural scientist: . animal production nearly always appears much less efficient than crop production . energy and protein production are always much higher from crops than from animals . . where the main concern is the feeding of the maximum number of people . there will generally be more emphasis on crop production
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Ireland
Hi John, What are you paying for your raw materials? When I was making biodiesel in Ireland two years ago methanol was €114 per 200 litres. This worked out at roughly 11c per litre of biodiesel produced. The duty payable per litre was 33c. I forget exactly what I paid for the sodium hydroxide but it was fairly small. If you get your waste oil for free, which I did, then your costs including heating, should be roughly 50c per litre. Given that it is now €1.08 per litre for dino diesel at the pumps that leaves it a very economical proposition. If you want to do something about the duty payable on biodiesel then respond to this: *The Green Party has launched its Drop the Duty Postcard Campaign. Party Leader Trevor Sargent TD and Deputy Leader Cllr. Mary White are urging Minister Cowen to drop the excise duty levied on the biofuel industry in the forthcoming Budget. * *Postcards for our campaign are now available in the Green Party office. If you require some of the postcards to be sent to you please let us know asap. They can also be collected from the office during working hours.* *Please support this campaign. Regards Dermot * john owens wrote: Hi Keith, Do you by any chance know any thing about the bio diesel situation in Ireland. I want to make bio diesel but the government seam to be against it and want to charge a duty on it the same as mineral oil diesel. I worked out some of the costs and it all ads up to about 90c per liter with duty added. This is just for raw materials, I haven't taken into account capital costs, repair costs or %loss and I'm sure there would be other hidden costs and Licences etc etc. I am now afraid to pursue this any further because I am unsure of what way the government are going with it. Any advice. John ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Andres, You raised an interesting point below (on 3rd Oct, sorry for late reply) about my assertion that there is currently no reliable evidence to suggest that plants feel pain. snip I say wait a while, we'll find they do. Science advances slowly, with many stumbles along the road, and many dead ends as well. (Andres) snip This is a common argument put forward against vegetarianism. This argument says that if it is shown sometime in the future that plants feel pain then vegetarians will have to give up eating plants. The first conclusion drawn from this is that plants should have the same rights as animals. The second conclusion is that this is clearly impossible as it would result in the death of all vegetarians. The final, and false, conclusion is that since we cannot afford rights to plants then we shouldn't afford these rights to animals either! Even in the highly unlikely event that plants can experience pain it would presumably be much less severe than the pain animals experience so we would go for the lesser of two evils. I can't see how it follows that it would then be okay to inflict pain on animals AS WELL. Regards Dermot ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Andres Yver wrote: Hello Dermot, Thanks for the kind and thoughtful reply. I have been a bit flippant in my response to you, because i have judged too hastily, as i now see by your words. I shall endeavor to answer your questions as honestly as possible. snip Hi Andre, Thanks for the nice reply. I'll try to deal with some of the points you raised in a week or so when my workload lessens a little. Regards Dermot ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Keith Addison wrote: Hello Dermot snip Many very extensive studies have been done on various vegetarian groups such as Seven Day Adventists and some vegetarians claim that as these people are healthier than average that it must be due to their vegetarian diet. I don't subscribe to this view because these people don't smoke or drink either. What I do conclude from this however is that a vegetarian diet doesn't do these people any harm. This is the important point to realise. One of them, and there are exceptions. I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Of course one can cite studies to justify any case in the area of diet and health. We are still in the dark ages as far as the science of nutrition and diet is concerned. You can have two scientists who have received the same training who when presented with the same evidence will come to diametrically opposite conclusions. A bit like the dark art of economics! It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. Some people really hate it (and hate me) when I say these things, but there is no sustainable way of raising plants without animals. There is no traditional farming system that doesn't used animals, and never has been. It just doesn't work - soil fertility sooner or later fails, and then everything else fails too. Likewise in nature mixed farming is the rule, plants are always found with animals. God can't do it, and neither can we. Sustainable farms are mixed, integrated farms. Can't see any reason to hate somebody who expresses an opposing view. Everybody should be open to having their views challenged. Scepticism is something we can't have enough of! I'm glad you raised this objection to vegetarianism because it is the first time I have heard this particular view. I don't know a lot about the detail of sustainable agriculture but I am aware of at least one farm here in Ireland that is run on a stockless system that the owners claim is sustainable. Similarly there is a organisation in the UK called the Vegan Organic Trust that certifies farms as being vegan and sustainable. In America there is a guy called Will Bonsall who has run the Khadighar Farm near Farmington, Maine for the past 25 years, using veganic methods, i.e. no animal inputs, for the past 20 years. Just suppose for the sake of argument that it is possible to have sustainable agriculture without any animal input and further suppose that it is possible to lead a healthy life on a vegetarian diet, would you then consider it wrong to eat non-human animals? Mixed farming does NOT mean miles of monocrop grains on one side of the fence and an intensive pig/chicken/turkey/beef farm (factory) on the other, with its shit-lagoon. Farming with animals means one of two things: killing the inevitable excess or competing with them as they eat you out of house and home. Killing them and not eating them would not be sane, and criminally wasteful. I don't actually have a problem with animals being used in agriculture. If they get reasonable care they can have a pretty decent existence and they can contribute to soil fertility. It's a win-win situation for everybody. I do have a problem with cutting short a sentient creature's life if it is unnecessary. I can't see how there needs to be an excess of animals that have to be killed if we have the technology to limit their breeding. If for some reason culling is required, I don't think that there would not be any ethical dilemma in eating their flesh. Widespread vegetarianism would condemn more animals than mixed farming ever could, and could easily condemn us all to the consequences (the further consequences) of unbalanced farming systems. I would turn this argument on its head by saying that widespread meat eating would condemn us all to the consequences of unbalanced farming systems. Most people on this planet are vegetarian most of the time. If everybody was to eat a meat diet similar to the meat eating patterns in the West then everybody would starve. I know this is not what you advocate but it's worth bearing in mind all the same. Even your healthy vegetables will not be very good for you if they're not properly grown in fertile soils, which means that a proportion of the wastes recycled back to the soil goes through the gut of animals en route. Don't forget recycling food through our own guts. Human waste, with proper treatment should be used to fertilise soils instead of polluting the planet as at present. This would further cut down the need (if there is any) for animal manure. I think they are doing that very successfully in Shanghai at the moment. Food is fabricated soil fertility
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Andres Yver wrote: Hi Dermot, On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: snip It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said (paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or clipping baby greens. Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? Hi Andre, Is your trouble with ethics confined to the ethical treatment of animals? Presumably you want to be treated ethically by others.Why then deny that right to another sentient creature just because they don't happen to belong to your species? I also believe that you don't mean what you say. You do, for instance, believe it is unethical to inflict unneccary pain on any being that is capable of experiencing it. SENTIENCE: Having the power of self perception, that feels or is capable of feeling.(Oxford English Dictionary) What I mean by sentient creatures is creatures that are self aware, they can relate to others, act independently, experience joy or pain, are capable of abstract thought, are capable of communication. Not all animals have the same degree of sentiency and therefore not all animals should be treated the same. But where they have the same degree of sentiency, for instance in the ability to feel pain, they should be treated the same. Plants do not exhibit any of the above features of sentiency and there is no serious research suggesting that they do. All claims to the contrary have been completely discredited. (Natural History, March 1974 cited in Animal Liberation by Peter Singer) So where do you draw the line? Different people draw the line in different places. I draw the line at having a central nervous system and possessing most of attributes of sentiency described above. Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? They have much the same rights. But if a rat interferes with my right to live by trying to give me bubonic plague I kill it as mercifully as possible. If the rat doesn't interfere with my rights I leave him alone. If a rabbit threathens my health by eating all my crops I kill him as well. But only if completely necessary and as humanely as possible. How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What about their rights? Animals eat other animals because they have to to survive. I maintain that humans do not need to. You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you could find to eat was an animal? I would eat the animals. If I was hungry enough I would also eat human animals no problem. But I would not do these things unless it were completely necessary, which thankfully it isn't. Is hunger what you would consider a good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? They have more rights than a bull calf because they possess more sentiency (most of the time anyway). They are capable of abstract thought , they can plan for the future, they can experience more joy and live a much fuller life than a bull calf. I hope what I have said above will answer the points you have raised here. You are attributing views to me here which I do not in fact hold. Of course a healthy human life is more important than the life of a cockroach. There is no inconsistency here. The more sentient the creature the more rights accruing to it. But where beings have the same degree of sentiency they should be treated equally. The decision of whose life is more valuable should not be based on membership of a particular species. So a severely brain damaged person incapable of any feeling or awareness would not have the same right to life as a higher animal such as a healthy chimpanzee. Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex than what you present. That is certainly an understatement. These are extremely complex issues and I would not attempt to address them all
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Keith Addison wrote: Hi Andres. Dermot Hi Dermot, On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: snip It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said (paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. I think so too. Plants do some downright weird things, you can explain it all away easily enough perhaps, but you're missing something if you do. I don't have any problems with people being vegetarians or whatever they want to be, but in my view what you call the holier than thou attitude that sometimes goes with it is baseless. The trouble is when people do it for their own emotional reasons, which is fair enough, but they try to pretend it's for logical reasons, and get very annoyed when the logic doesn't hold up. People shouldn't make important decisions based on emotions, I agree. The funny thing is when I make the case for vegetarianism based on logic with my meat eating friends they accuse me of being relentlessly logical when they begin to lose the argument. You just can't win. :-) My previous partner Christine Thery (who did many of the illustrations at the JtF website) once got us into a furious row with a couple of veggies, just as the logic was failing, by saying: In other words you eat vegetables because they don't scream and try to run away when you kill them. LOL! She had a point. I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or clipping baby greens. Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? So where do you draw the line? Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What about their rights? Inside a compost pile seems to me like a reasonable sort of place to end up when it's your turn to get eaten. You'll become billions of creatures, eventually just merging into the spirit of the local soil community. You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you could find to eat was an animal? Is hunger what you would consider a good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex than what you present. I very much agree. (As I may have said...) My friend Prema is a Tibetan nun, based at Daramsala in India with the Dalai Lama. I've quoted her before here: It's not often a person gets the chance to live a human life, it's quite rare, one shouldn't waste such an opportunity. Quite! She told me the Northern Buddhists are vegetarians but they don't make rigid rules about it. They try to live without killing other creatures, though they know it's impossible. She was very interested to hear that plants eat other creatures, they send out root hairs that capture and devour soil micro-organisms, even nematodes sometimes. Plants eat meat. It's possible (quite easy!) to live in a relationship of positive symbiosis with the rest of the creatures you're sharing your slice of the biosphere with, in full respect for the rights of everything else that's alive, while doing your share of necessary killing too. You can always be adding more than you're substracting. Best wishes Keith andres (who, having been vegetarian, has also felt holier than thou) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, I too kill my own animals, we put their names on the package of meat and remember them when we eat them, giving thanks for their life energies. Even the Dali Lama is only vegetarian half the time, as the stress of traveling weakens him too much on a strict vegetarian diet. Many of us get sick not eating meat. Now, I am not saying that I need a 16 ounce steak for dinner every night, and I do not eat factory farmed meat, cause that will make me sick, too. For some of us, we see the spiritual connection between the animal and ourselves, when we eat it, and treat the whole thing in a spiritual manner. I talk to my animals and thank them for their life energies before I kill them. I wish them a longer and happier life in their next incarnation, and they stay very calm, stand still and let me kill them. Chickens are the easiest animal to kill, rabbits the hardest, for me. Bright Blessings, Kim Hi Kim, I don't think you are being quite fair in citing the example of the Dalai Lama as an example of vegetarianism not working. In the mid 1960s the Dalai Lama was in Kerala, Southern India, where a high proportion of the local population have always been vegetarian. Their tradition, as with other parts of India, is of lacto-vegetarianism, using a modest amount of milk products (but not eggs). Whilst there the Dalai Lama decided to become vegetarian but then proceeded to live on a bizarre diet consisting entirely of milk and nuts. If this is true, and it seems to be well documented, it would have been an extremely high fat and very unhealthy diet by any standards. After 18 months he became very ill and his doctors, unsurprisingly, blamed it on the lack of meat rather than advising a better balanced vegetarian diet. He was persuaded to return to meat-eating and has done so ever since. (International Vegetarian Union) If somebody does something irresponsible like that it is unfair to blame it on vegetarianism. It's like saying making biodiesel is extremely injurious to your health because some nut job blows himself up heating methanol in an open barrel with a blow torch! I have been vegetarian for the last six years and my wife for the last ten. We are both thankfully very healthy. Do I attribute this solely to vegetarianism? No. We both lead a pretty healthy lifestyle and no longer smoke. I don't claim that eating modest amounts of meat will kill you as some overly enthusiastic vegetarians do. Neither do I accept that eating a sensible vegetarian diet is unhealthy. I belong to a Food Co-op of about 1200 members of whom about one third are vegetarian. In a large close knit group like that one would hear if there were problems with a vegetarian diet. Problems can arise when people take up vegetarianism but don't do their homework properly. You have to learn about the various foods and make sure that you are getting all the proper vitamins. I was in the army until recently and got a very strict medical every year which include blood tests of every description checking for vitamin deficiencies. This is very important especially for teenagers. There is also a fair bit of confusion about what a vegetarian is. It can mean different things to different people. The dictionary definition is someone who will not eat food which had resulted in the death of an animal. People sometimes confuse it with veganism which is a much more exclusive diet as it does not allow any food derived from animals. This diet needs an awful lot more care especially with regard to vitamin B12. Many very extensive studies have been done on various vegetarian groups such as Seven Day Adventists and some vegetarians claim that as these people are healthier than average that it must be due to their vegetarian diet. I don't subscribe to this view because these people don't smoke or drink either. What I do conclude from this however is that a vegetarian diet doesn't do these people any harm. This is the important point to realise. It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. Regards Dermot Donnelly ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] New York : DA Drops The Charges Against Carol Lang
Hi Ron, Not nearly enough said I'm afraid. I think you are perpetuating two myths: I think it was George Orwell who said that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it. Sadly, a whole generation has got its perceptions of the Second World War from Hollywood. Many in Europe and America don't even know of Russia's involvement in the war and assume that they were fighting against the allies! Myth No.1: The war in Europe was basically over in mid 1943, almost a year before the Normandy landings. The decisive battles were all fought in Russia (Stalingrad, siege of Moscow, siege of Leningrad, Battle of Kursk etc.). In the siege of Leningrad alone an estimated 700,000 people perished. The war culminated in the Battle of Kursk in July 1943. It was the biggest tank battle in history, yet is known about by few in the west. After this decisive battle the war was basically over in Europe, in the sense that the Germans were always on the defensive from then on, and the Russians could have won without the Americans or British. It would of course have taken longer. American equipment given to Russia under the Lend Lease program was an important factor early on in the war but was less so as Russian production of armaments moved east. Still, we owe a great debt to the American and British soldiers who died in this war. We often rightly acknowledge that debt. We seldom acknowledge the even greater debt we owe the Russian people!!! During the decisive battle on the western front, The Battle of the Bulge, the Germans had the majority of their troops in the Eastern Front, in Russia.. During the war the Russians lost an estimated 20 million people. This was almost 10% of their population. It tended to colour their perception of Europe from then on!! It is also important to remember that Russia had been invaded by Europe in 1914 and in 1919/20 also. Three times in 30 years!!! There was also still the folk memory of Napoleon's invasion in 1812. Myth No.2: At the end of the war Russia was determined that they wouldn't be invaded again. (Remember that this was thought to be a possibility; the US General, Patton, wanted to go on and attack Russia to finish the war.) The Russians therefore decided to form a buffer zone of satellite states around its borders just as Israel did with south Lebanon in the early 80's. This obviously led to tensions with the other super powers and you had the formation of NATO and the Warsaw Pact after that. This in turn led to the Cold War and an arms race which the Russians needed like a hole in the head. Their country was devastated and needed reconstruction urgently. The US emerged from the war practically unscathed and as the only remaining superpower with 50% of the world's wealth, but only 3% of its population. Russia realised early on that it could never compete successfully with the economic might of the US and therefore sought to end the Cold War as early as 1952. They proposed that Germany be re-united but remain neutral with no conditions attached to its economic policies and guaranteeing the rights of man and basic freedoms, including freedom of speech, press and the free activity of democratic parties. The US replied that a re-united Germany would have to be free to join NATO. This was a demand that the US knew Russia could not accept. The US needed the Cold War to keep its population scared. This helped to keep what Eisenhower described as the military industrial complex happy. It's also interesting to note that Eisenhower thought that fears of a Russian invasion of Europe were the product of paranoid imaginations. It has to be said that elements of the Russian regime also found the Cold War handy in keeping their population in line too. They of course had their own military industrial complex. The Russians made several more attempts to end the Cold War but were rebuffed time and again by the US, (see Noam Chomsky's DETERRING DEMOCRACY). The above may seem to be overly generous to the Russians. They were of course quite brutal in their occupation of their satellite states. All empires are brutal and their actions are mostly reprehensible in their colonies. It is interesting to compare the colonies of the US and the Russian colonies during the 1980's however. The Russian colonies were bleeding Russia dry whereas the US colonies in South America were hugely profitable for the US economy. The Soviet Union poured about 80 billion dollars into Eastern Europe during the 1970's. According to the New York Times transfers to the West from Latin America from 1982 to 1987 amounted to 150 billion dollars. Also, what would have happened to Vaclev Havel or Lech Walesa (PolishTrade Union leader), if they had advocated free elections and free trade unions in El Salvador or Guatemala during the 1980's? They would have ended up disembowelled somewhere on the outskirts of town! Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf
RE: [Biofuel] thank you ref liquid lye
Hi Tom, I e-mailed you off list a few days ago about the availability of lye and methanol in Ireland. Did you receive it? Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 May 2005 00:31 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] thank you ref liquid lye Thank you for your advise Bruno M. Methanol is available in N/Ireland from Chemical suppliers and they will sell it to me ok. they also have Lye and sulphuric acid. We have to pay Customs Excise 47p + 17.5% vat on every litre when im legal but I will go through the experimental stage first. I enjoy reading all the Emails on the list. Yes you are converting the £uk ok. Kindest regards, Tom JT Maguire... ___ Book yourself something to look forward to in 2005. Cheap flights - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/flights/ Bargain holidays - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/travel/holidays/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the full Biofuel list archives (46,000 messages): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Search the Biofuels-biz list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuels-biz/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the full Biofuel list archives (46,000 messages): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Search the Biofuels-biz list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuels-biz/
RE: [Biofuel] it looks like soapy milk facts
Hi, I had the same experience with pump washing. It just doesn't work. It appears to be too violent even if your reaction is perfect. The washing has to be gentle. It would seem to me that the initial wash has got to be quite gentle even with well made biodiesel and that subsequent washes can then be as violent as you like and you will still get good separation. Regards Dermot Here's my rather lengthy query to the group on this subject last summer. I would appreciate any suggestions or help from people who have experience with washing biodiesel by using a pump. I have tried unsuccessfully to do it and have ended up with about 50% mayonnaise. Here's what I did: I heated the used oil, which was over a year old, to 130 degrees centigrade for over an hour to make sure there was no water present. I then took a sample and allowed it to cool before titrating it. I got a titration reading of around 2.7. I did the titration three times and it was always around this figure. I added 4 grams to this figure and made a few one litre test batches mixing 6.7 grams of lye to the methanol. I used 22% methanol (220 ml) in order to ensure a complete reaction. I made sure that the lye mixed completely with the methanol. When I mixed the methoxide with the wvo I got a very good separation and everything seemed fine. I then siphoned off the top layer of biodiesel and added an equal amount of water to it. I shook it about 15 times and I got a good separation within seconds and after maybe an hour I had almost completely clean biodiesel on top and white coloured water underneath. There was no middle layer. After a few days I siphoned off the washed biodiesel and washed it a few more times. Same result, perfect separation after a few hours and it separated quite quickly initially. I will call this sample A. I then took another litre sample of the unwashed biodiesel and ran it through the whole process again to see if I had a complete reaction. I titrated it but it immediately turned purple so I used the figure of 4 grams of lye to mix with the 220 ml of methanol. I mixed the methoxide and biodiesel thoroughly and was pleased to see that I got no separation, indicating that there had been a complete reaction the first time. I washed it again and got good separation very quickly. So far so good. I felt confident enough now to do my first large batch in my processor. By large I mean 50 litres. My processor is an old discarded plastic tractor mounted spray tank. It is rectangular in shape but has a slight cone shaped bottom. I use a pump mixer to pump the contents from the bottom of the tank to the top where I have a three quarter inch pipe connected to a wand which has about 40 small holes drilled to enable good mixing. This wand is submerged near he bottom of the tank. The pump is a sliding vane type and is powered by a 2 horsepower motor running at 1750 rpm. I heated the wvo in a separate heater tank using a butane burner and brought it up to 65 degrees centigrade. I then transferred it by pump to the reaction vessel and turned on my pump. I then gradually added the methoxide mixture (at room temp) to the pump inlet and mixed away for about an hour to ensure good mixing. I have the reactor tank well insulated so the temperature didn't drop below 55 degrees centigrade during the reaction time of one hour. Next morning I saw that everything went very well. I had good separation and the glycerine had fallen to the bottom and was liquid, just as the trial batches had been, so it was easy to draw off the glycerine. I drew off a pint of biodiesel and did the wash test by shaking it vigorously for about ten shakes. I got good separation almost immediately and it cleared to lovely biodiesel and milky water in a few minutes. I drained off the water and let the biodiesel air dry for a few days when it turned the nice clear straw yellow. Call this sample B. I was happy that I had made good biodiesel so I decided to pump wash the biodiesel in the reaction vessel. I added to the approximately 50 litres of biodiesel about 30 litres of water and circulated it through the processor for about half an hour. The result was mayonnaise. I let it settle for a day and then drained off the milky white water. The only problem was that before long I realised that most of the mixture was at this stage mayonnaise so I stopped draining off the lower layer. What was left of the mixture(about 20 litres) I put into a plastic carboy and went on holidays for a week. When I came back I had three layers; the top 30 percent was biodiesel, a large middle layer of mayonnaise about 60 per cent and a bottom layer of slightly darker mayonnaise. I then went back to my two samples A and B which I was happy was good biodiesel and performed the wash test on them yet again but this time very vigorously and for about five minutes each. I was trying to simulate the mixing that occurred in the pump mixing. No matter how hard I shook I still got good separation
RE: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Process Agitation Question.
Hi Luc, My experience with violent washing of biodiesel was disastrous. I used pump washing. I had a complete reaction and I still ended up with emulsion. The first wash especially has to be gentle. Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Legal Eagle Sent: 22 October 2004 00:20 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Process Agitation Question. Peter; It seems that it couldn't be any more violent than a drill and paint stirrer, and THAT I have done with good success. Washing it the same way also proved a good method. Once processed, test it using the quality test; http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality and if you habe good fuel (a complete reaction) then proceed with a vigorous wash and it will not hurt anything, although if you have not gottena complete reaqction you will get a whole whack of emulsion (not good). Luc - Original Message - From: Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 11:38 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel Process Agitation Question. Hello All ; I have an opportunity to buy 4-5 stainless steel agitators. They are about 1 meter long, and the impellors are about 6 in diameter and are designed to run at full speed (ie. no gear reduction). In other words, they really whip the mixture, not just agitate it. They have an outer shroud which guides the fluid past about 8 small curved blades. The blades are only about 1 in long. I understand that vigorous agitation during conversion reduces the needed process time. Are these a good idea?? Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Re: Jewish settlers atttack US christians
I think we can do no better than to heed the advice below from Noam Chomsky: The best thing to do is read widely and always sceptically. Remember that everyone, including me, has their opinions and their goals and you have to think them through for yourself. Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Appal Energy Sent: 05 October 2004 20:12 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: Jewish settlers atttack US christians Tim, Thank you for your qualifiers as to the unreliability of all or almost all news institutions. Your first post didn't give the same perspective. In the words of Ronald Reagan, trust, but verify is sound policy in almost every venue. As for agreeing to disagree relative to Aljazeera? They're certainly no more or less reliable than CBS and certainly no more slanted than Fox or any number of others. I think that if you were to treat all news agencies with the same criteria and candor that there would be far less cause to take exception to the perspective you print. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Tim Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 10:08 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Re: Jewish settlers atttack US christians Todd, I'm not saying that the beating did or did not take place. And it is not an opinion as to the credibility of the source but rather a fact. Your point would be better served and received citing several sources rather than one. Especially one that is for the most part State Run. It's not that I don't include Aljazeera in my daily diet of news sources because I do for just the reason you stated. Getting unreported stories or rather a different perspective of commonly reported stories. However, with the way the media tends to cover and spin stories to support their agendas I find it best to have some form of validation and not rely on any single source and accept what that source might state as truth. This helps to reduce the spin. And finally I hope that we can agree to disagree on the merit of Aljazeera's reporting. Tim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Appal Energy Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 11:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: Jewish settlers atttack US christians Tim, So you're saying that the beating didn't take place, simply because you don't care for the source? How many other times have such events not been reported by your choice media? And after thousands of failures of non-reporting you would care to imply that they're far more reliable and/or less biased than any other? Aljazeera is, whether you like it or not, a news agency - a far cry above and beyond the pale of a White House press secretary. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Tim Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 7:56 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Re: Jewish settlers atttack US christians I can't believe that someone would actually use Aljazeera as a news source. LOL. I know it's difficult to find news sources having any degree of intergrity in reporting, but really.Aljazeera? You might as well take the White House spokesman's word as the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Tim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of fox mulder Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 3:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] Re: Jewish settlers atttack US christians Jewish settlers attack US Christians By Khalid Amayreh in the West Bank Thursday 30 September 2004, 2:24 Makka Time, 23:24 GMT Palestinian children fear attacks from settlers Jewish settler immigrants from North America have attacked and severely beat American Christian peace volunteers near the village of Yatta south west of Hebron. Palestinian and Israeli sources said the attack occurred on Wednesday. According to the Hebron-based Christian Peace Making Team (CPT), five settlers carrying iron chains and baseball clubs, assaulted two male and female volunteers who were escorting Palestinian schoolchildren to their school at the village of Tuba near the settlement of Maon in the southern Hebron hills. The assailants reportedly beat the two volunteers and robbed them. The pair were evacuated by an Israeli ambulance to a hospital in the southern Israeli town of Be'ir Sheva were their condition is said to be moderate. The assailants also stole a bag belonging to a female volunteer named Kim Lamberty. The bag contained a passport, money and a cellular phone. It is not clear if the settlers had wanted to attack Palestinian schoolchildren who fled to their homes. Volunteers severly beaten CPT
RE: [Biofuel] China's Energy Crisis Blankets Hong Kong in Smog
The report on the viability of nuclear energy below may answer your question. http://www.oprit.rug.nl/deenen/ Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ken Provost Sent: 20 September 2004 00:09 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] China's Energy Crisis Blankets Hong Kong in Smog China faces a chronic energy shortage and making the switch from coal-fired plants to cleaner fuel is costly and disruptive. Electricity provider CLP Holdings, which steadily reduced its emission of pollutants in the 1990s, reversed progress last year by burning 50 percent more coal than in 2002 and cutting its use of gas, a cleaner fuel. Reserves in the South China Sea gas field on which it relied were overestimated, forcing it to burn more coal to meet rising demand here and in China but CLP said it would maintain a balanced fuel mix of coal, gas and nuclear in the long run. Fascinating to me, especially having just finished Richard Heinberg's new book Powerdown -- Options and Actions for a Post-Carbon World. A technical question about nuclear (I'm sure this group has SEVERAL people who know the answer -- pardon my ignorance :-)): Does a nuclear power plant need constant replacement of spent fuel rods, or do you just load it up once, and then it keeps going for 20-30 years with no additional inputs? The answer makes a big difference when conditions may be very different in 20-30 years -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [biofuel] Re: ready to go rquipment in the uk
Hi Mohamed, Could you tell me what EU legislation you are talking about or have you a reference to it? Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: mohamed hassan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 September 2004 11:10 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: ready to go rquipment in the uk hi Shaun Harwood i am in Loughborough UK am interested in bio diesel and would like to know if i can get involved in your plans with my technical know how ??? especially when EU legislation on biological fuels demanding a 2% market share of bio diesel fuels by 2005, and a share of 5.75% by 2010. Please get in touch and will try to help as much as possible Mohamed --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, shaun horwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you Know of any Individuals or companies who sells the equipment ready to make bio diesel in the Uk, I am in the South (Swindon) .I can get plenty of used cooking oil and wish to manufacture approx 5000lts per month for personal use. regards Shaun [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel
Hi, I just take the cap off the carboy and put the hose into the methoxide to suck it up. Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: Greg Harbican [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 September 2004 22:01 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel Do you have some way of letting air in?Other wise, would not the pump pull out the methoxide, leaving a vacuum? Greg H. - Original Message - From: dermot To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 14:18 Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel Hi Greg, On the inlet side of the pump I have a copper T-piece fitting. One part of the T-piece is connected directly to the pump inlet. Another part of the T-piece is connected to the bottom of the processor tank and has a ball valve in line. The third part of the T-piece is connected to the carboy with the methoxide and again has a ball valve in line which is normally closed. When I want to mix the methoxide with the wvo I just open the ball valve to the carboy a little bit and it sucks it up no problem. When all the methoxide is gone I just close the valve and mix away. Regards Dermot [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel
Hi Greg, On the inlet side of the pump I have a copper T-piece fitting. One part of the T-piece is connected directly to the pump inlet. Another part of the T-piece is connected to the bottom of the processor tank and has a ball valve in line. The third part of the T-piece is connected to the carboy with the methoxide and again has a ball valve in line which is normally closed. When I want to mix the methoxide with the wvo I just open the ball valve to the carboy a little bit and it sucks it up no problem. When all the methoxide is gone I just close the valve and mix away. Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: Greg Harbican [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02 September 2004 21:17 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel Do you have a diagram showing how the Methoxide is sucked from the carboy and the WVO is being pumped through the processor? I am imagining a venturi like device, that the WVO is going through, drawing the Methoxide in at a preset ( or adjustable ) rate. Greg H. - Original Message - From: dermot To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 12:09 Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel Thanks everybody for the replies. I mixed the methoxide with the wvo by gradually letting the pump suck it from a carboy as the wvo was being pumped through the processor. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel
Hi L, Thanks for the input. The reason I heated it to 130 degrees C was simply because I left it too long. I didn't realise how long it took to heat 50 litres of this stuff. I have a sealed processor so I don't think any methanol escaped. The scale I'm using is very accurate and I've checked it against a good electronic one. The wvo was heated to 65 degrees C and then transferred to the main tank and then mixed with the room temp sodium methoxide, so I'm pretty sure the temp of the mixture was below 65 degrees C and in any case I have a sealed reactor vessel. I think, as you rightly suggest, that my pump is too powerful and that the mixing is too violent. Thanks for you input. Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: bioveging [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 September 2004 02:46 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel OK, I am no pro at this but even I can see a couple of points. Why bring it up to 130C ? Did it need dewatering or was it just a precaution? A sample test in a saucepan brought up to temp would have confirmed it one way or the other. I have made BD using some really crappy WVO which titrated at 10gr/liter and washed it using a paint stirrer and it tunred out OK. The procesing temp is too high in your case.65C will boil off the methanol which goes vapour at about 64C. Your processing temp should not be over 55C (130F). Too high or too low will result in poor end product.( I know, I've done it) 2HP pump huh? Wow ! Bet that thing hums huh? Might be a bit too much for such a small amount though, although someone else will have to comment of that as I am not in the know on it. There has been talk of a 1/2 HP pump for 200gal (757liter) going for half an hour and oing the job. Are you using a good scale? How about PH measuring method? All potential variables that can cause trouble. I am thinking though that your biggest problem had to do with the processing temperature being too high causing a loss of methanol. Anyway, that is only mytake on it, maybe someone with more experience can be more helpful L. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, dermot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would appreciate any suggestions or help from people who have experience with washing biodiesel by using a pump. I have tried unsuccessfully to do it and have ended up with about 50% mayonnaise. Here's what I did: I heated the used oil, which was over a year old, to 130 degrees centigrade for over an hour to make sure there was no water present. I then took a sample and allowed it to cool before titrating it. I got a titration reading of around 2.7. I did the titration three times and it was always around this figure. I added 4 grams to this figure and made a few one litre test batches mixing 6.7 grams of lye to the methanol. I used 22% methanol (220 ml) in order to ensure a complete reaction. I made sure that the lye mixed completely with the methanol. When I mixed the methoxide with the wvo I got a very good separation and everything seemed fine. I then siphoned off the top layer of biodiesel and added an equal amount of water to it. I shook it about 15 times and I got a good separation within seconds and after maybe an hour I had almost completely clean biodiesel on top and white coloured water underneath. There was no middle layer. After a few days I siphoned off the washed biodiesel and washed it a few more times. Same result, perfect separation after a few hours and it separated quite quickly initially. I will call this sample A. I then took another litre sample of the unwashed biodiesel and ran it through the whole process again to see if I had a complete reaction. I titrated it but it immediately turned purple so I used the figure of 4 grams of lye to mix with the 220 ml of methanol. I mixed the methoxide and biodiesel thoroughly and was pleased to see that I got no separation, indicating that there had been a complete reaction the first time. I washed it again and got good separation very quickly. So far so good. I felt confident enough now to do my first large batch in my processor. By large I mean 50 litres. My processor is an old discarded plastic tractor mounted spray tank. It is rectangular in shape but has a slight cone shaped bottom. I use a pump mixer to pump the contents from the bottom of the tank to the top where I have a three quarter inch pipe connected to a wand which has about 40 small holes drilled to enable good mixing. This wand is submerged near he bottom of the tank. The pump is a sliding vane type and is powered by a 2 horsepower motor running at 1750 rpm. I heated the wvo in a separate heater tank using a butane burner and brought it up to 65 degrees centigrade. I then transferred it by pump to the reaction vessel and turned on my pump. I then gradually added the methoxide mixture (at room temp) to the pump inlet and mixed away for about an hour to ensure good mixing. I have the reactor tank well
[biofuel] Pump Washing of biodiesel
good advice you need as complete a picture of what I did as possible. Regards Dermot Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: washing biodiesel in large processor
Thanks very much for that advice Todd. Regards, Dermot -Original Message- From: appalenergy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 July 2004 03:44 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: washing biodiesel in large processor Dermot, What I intend to do is to use the pump from my reactor vessel to mix the biodiesel and water. Presumably this is ok? If the pump was sufficient to get you a completed reaction in short order, it should be sufficient for washing. Just one hitch though. You'll need to flush your system with biodiesel to get all the residual water out of the pump housing and lines prior to starting your next batch. It's a proverbial pita using the same system for both reacting and washing. The perceived benefits don't outweigh the costs in our opinion. Is there anything radically wrong with what I have proposed above? No. But be aware that methanol is solvent in biodiesel as well and the finished fuel can hold a healthy percentage of the excess. If you've got capability to recover the methanol, you would be well advised to do so from both the glyc cocktail and the biodiesel prior to its washing. Todd Swearingen --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Dermot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Todd, This mixing method you describe looks much easier than bubble washing or mist washing. What I intend to do is to use the pump from my reactor vessel to mix the biodiesel and water. Presumably this is ok? You emphasise that it is important that the reaction be fully complete. From what I have been reading on Journeytoforever it seems that the best way to ensure that is to use the correct amount of lye, i.e. 3.5 or 4 grams plus titration plus plenty of excess methanol. I intend doing my first large batch soon (50 litres). It titrates at 2.4 so I am going to use say 6.4 grams/litre of lye plus 25% methanol to ensure a complete reaction. I have read the journeytoforever advice on the different amounts of methanol to use for different oils but as I am going to recover the methanol I don't think it matters if I use too much. I presume most of the excess methanol will end up in the glycerine and not the biodiesel. I would appreciate your advice on this. Is there anything radically wrong with what I have proposed above? Regards, Dermot -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 09 July 2004 00:36 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor Ardis, You will find, after enough experimentation and out of pocket costs, that mechanical agitation in a wash tank is the least expensive, consumes the least energy, requires the least amount of time and leaves you with a finished product as good as or better than mist- or bubble-washing. Plain, pure and simple, mist- and bubble-washing have become institutionalized amongst home-brewers primarily due to the frequency of incomplete reactions that lend to washing problems. In short, they are both methods of treating incomplete reactions with little kid's gloves in the hopes that any resulting emulsion won't be too bad or too noticeable. The fact of the matter is that no wash method should be used on any batch unless it is known for certain that the reaction has completed. Unfortunately, many people fail to guarantee this for themselves, opting to just go ahead and wash it gently. The method of guarantee is extremely simple. Put one ounce of what is believed to be finished fuel in a baby food jar (or similar) with an equal amount of water. Seal the jar and shake violently for 15 seconds. Completed fuel should begin to separate instantly and there should be two distinct layers in less than ~30 seconds. If it takes longer than this or if an emulsion layer forms any thicker than the normal paper thin interface layer between oil and water, you've got a batch that has not completed. The degree of incompletion can vary. If the fuel/water separate slowly but are by-and-large complete in a matter of 1-2 minutes and there is no emulsion layer other than the interface, there's no great need to retreat the reaction if the fuel is intended for personal use. If you have an emulsion beyond the thin interface layer the batch needs to be retreated. No amount of light mist- or bubble-washing can change this - unless, of course, you don't care what grade of fuel you run through your engine. The wash test and mechanical washing (motor, prop and shaft) work well no matter what method you use - acid/base or straight base, single or double stage. Some concern has been expressed in the past over the use of air to dry fuel, the concern being fuel oxidation. It's beyond me why those who express such concern (and rightfully so) don't say word one about bubble washing doing the exact same thing. Others express concern with pump- or prop-washed fuel not clearing as quickly as mist- or bubble-washed. There's sound reason for this, all
RE: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor
Hi Todd, This mixing method you describe looks much easier than bubble washing or mist washing. What I intend to do is to use the pump from my reactor vessel to mix the biodiesel and water. Presumably this is ok? You emphasise that it is important that the reaction be fully complete. From what I have been reading on Journeytoforever it seems that the best way to ensure that is to use the correct amount of lye, i.e. 3.5 or 4 grams plus titration plus plenty of excess methanol. I intend doing my first large batch soon (50 litres). It titrates at 2.4 so I am going to use say 6.4 grams/litre of lye plus 25% methanol to ensure a complete reaction. I have read the journeytoforever advice on the different amounts of methanol to use for different oils but as I am going to recover the methanol I don't think it matters if I use too much. I presume most of the excess methanol will end up in the glycerine and not the biodiesel. I would appreciate your advice on this. Is there anything radically wrong with what I have proposed above? Regards, Dermot -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 09 July 2004 00:36 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor Ardis, You will find, after enough experimentation and out of pocket costs, that mechanical agitation in a wash tank is the least expensive, consumes the least energy, requires the least amount of time and leaves you with a finished product as good as or better than mist- or bubble-washing. Plain, pure and simple, mist- and bubble-washing have become institutionalized amongst home-brewers primarily due to the frequency of incomplete reactions that lend to washing problems. In short, they are both methods of treating incomplete reactions with little kid's gloves in the hopes that any resulting emulsion won't be too bad or too noticeable. The fact of the matter is that no wash method should be used on any batch unless it is known for certain that the reaction has completed. Unfortunately, many people fail to guarantee this for themselves, opting to just go ahead and wash it gently. The method of guarantee is extremely simple. Put one ounce of what is believed to be finished fuel in a baby food jar (or similar) with an equal amount of water. Seal the jar and shake violently for 15 seconds. Completed fuel should begin to separate instantly and there should be two distinct layers in less than ~30 seconds. If it takes longer than this or if an emulsion layer forms any thicker than the normal paper thin interface layer between oil and water, you've got a batch that has not completed. The degree of incompletion can vary. If the fuel/water separate slowly but are by-and-large complete in a matter of 1-2 minutes and there is no emulsion layer other than the interface, there's no great need to retreat the reaction if the fuel is intended for personal use. If you have an emulsion beyond the thin interface layer the batch needs to be retreated. No amount of light mist- or bubble-washing can change this - unless, of course, you don't care what grade of fuel you run through your engine. The wash test and mechanical washing (motor, prop and shaft) work well no matter what method you use - acid/base or straight base, single or double stage. Some concern has been expressed in the past over the use of air to dry fuel, the concern being fuel oxidation. It's beyond me why those who express such concern (and rightfully so) don't say word one about bubble washing doing the exact same thing. Others express concern with pump- or prop-washed fuel not clearing as quickly as mist- or bubble-washed. There's sound reason for this, all things being equal. Pumps and propellers have the ability of better mixing the fuel and water (atomizing it), bringing both in more frequent contact with each other. This means greater surface to surface contact between water molecules and all suspended/dissolved impurities. Fifteen minutes with a 1/2 hp motor and 4 - 6 prop in a 200 gallon wash tank or bigger will achieve the same thing or more as an all-day-affair with a mist- or bubble-washer. This allows for hours of washing time to be converted to settling time, in turn hastening the entire wash process. Anyway, when all is said and done and no matter what wash method you choose, you'll best serve your own interests if you make sure that your reaction is complete before attempting any type of wash. All bubble- and mist-washing tend to do is offer brewers the opportunity to wash an incompletely reacted batch with one eye closed and sometimes the other eye squinted. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: ardis streeter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 7:29 PM Subject: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor Hi,all ' I was wondering if anyone could tell me which way might be best for washing large batches of biodiesel??My
FW: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
See below Regards, Dermot -Original Message- From: Dermot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 June 2004 17:32 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 Pretty strong words there, partner. Can you back them up with examples of where Moore has lied or skewed facts? Mere assertion is not enough! Regards, Dermot -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 June 2004 14:18 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I hope no voters base their vote on anything that Michael Moore writes or films. All of his premises and arguements are based on skewed data and emotion. He really has a very poor arguement. Its very sad that people would take something, written by someone with severe political motivations and uses human emotions to get a reaction in stead of logic, as truth and fact. Do us all a favor, do your own research, otherwise, don't vote. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Waste oil
Hi , Maybe somebody can help me with this query. I am about to make my first batch of boidiesel from 50 litres of WVO. I have made a few small 1 litre batches from this oil already and everything worked fine. The WVO looked very clean as I took it from the top of the barrel. When I was decanting the whole 50 litres last night I noticed that about 80% of the WVO was really nice looking and looked practically unused, just like the WVO I used for the litre batches. About the last 20% was made up of what I presume to be the animal fats that were in the oil due to whatever was cooked in it. My question is: do I use this fatty oil as well and just mix it with the very good vegetable oil or do I scrap it as I'm sure it is fully of free fatty acids and hence hard to convert to biodiesel with the simple base stage which I want to use? Regards, Dermot -Original Message- From: Kim Garth Travis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 June 2004 13:08 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] solar panels was Re: Australia - home brewers have to pay excise I think your statement is reasonable, except that you have a very wrong reason for why many people do not use solar panels. What has happened in Houston, Texas and probably elsewhere is that the homeowners boards in most areas won't allow the panels as they are considered unsightly. I own the list for Houston Renewable Energy Group started by a couple of NASA Engineers and this is a real problem. My second problem with solar panels is the amount of pollution created and energy used in creating the panels. Trying to find numbers on this is not easy, but if someone is going to put for solar panels as a solution, then this information should be presented as part of the case, IMHO. Let us see the whole picture, please. You are correct, that AC should only be needed on extremely hot days, that is, if your place was designed for the climate, properly. After all it is summer, and suppose to be warm. The number of people that walk around with summer colds from over air conditioning is ridiculous. Me, I use a sprinkler on my roof and it does 50% of my cooling. Bright Blessings, Kim At 02:41 PM 6/17/2004, you wrote: Recycling is interesting from a variety of levels. You are likely correct that it may be there primarily to assuage guilt. But the interesting thing is governments are paying for it to happen. It was a first step and it proves that we are capable of moving further. Packaging legislation decreasing packaging in the first place is another example of how we have moved forward. The key is finding baby steps. The energy problem is of course huge and there are few solutions in site that look intelligent. Here is an interesting idea: Solar power is not commonly used on housing because the panels are cheap but the batteries are expensive and environmentally unfriendly. Stop using batteries. Instead of shingles I put panels over my entire roof. This produces enough power for my entire house including air conditioning when it is sunny. Any extra power I get I pump back into the grid. I don't really care what I get back for it. I just need to bleed it and hey that was less burned coal. If there is some deal where I get something for it all the better. When I need normal power I buy it from the electricity company. I may produce as much solar energy as I consume ending up net zero and cut my electric bills in half. And I may just be more comfortable for example my air conditioning is generally turned off at the moment. I only use it for rediculously hot days. Hot days are generally sunny so more power means more air conditioning. Possibly in the winter I use electric heat which only is fed from the solar panels to bleed energy. So does anyone think this is viable? - bfn - JAW -- Original Message -- From: Bruce Colley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:59:27 -0700 I still think there are ways to protect our future without projecting the ultimate doom of the planet. I look around at the recycling programs today and they astound me considering our lifestyle of 20 years ago. We need to find ways to change things for the better that are easily acceptable by all of the public like recycling. That is the battle for the here and now. Don't stop working the world is getting better. - bfn - JAW From a U.S. perspective, I see the present level of recycling as simply indicative of our huge level of consumption, and I think that at least a significant reason for its increasing popularity is that it serves to soothe the conscience of the over consumers. On my street, a huge, noisy truck, which deteriorates the road, comes by and unloads the recycle bins and then carts this off to a plant 20 miles away where it is sorted and then eventually reprocessed, all
RE: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Hi Ryan, Where do you get your news/views from? Fox News! I don't know where to start in correcting the inaccuracies in your statements, nor do I have the time. I think the best thing you could do would be to read almost any book by Noam Chomsky (What Uncle Sam Really Wants or Deterring Democracy)about the way America runs the world. Did you never hear of the American overthrow of democratically elected governments in Chile and Guatemala and Iran? Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: Ryan Morgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 14 May 2004 09:22 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war Hey Todd et al, let's not make this personal, did you perhaps not see my :)?. I was merely saying that we have all benefited in the long run from the genocide that happened in North America in the past. One cannot judge history by modern standards, that's History 101! America is single-handedly the most innovative populace the world has ever known period. Look around you, the technology our democracy and free markets have produced and continue to produce have saved countless more lives, and provided for even more than were lost in the settling of this land. We are all benefiting from this, our life expectancy is much higher than even two generations ago, and our quality of life is unimaginable to those in the past. Do you like your medicine? Your efficient, convenient way of life? Your entertainment, refrigerator, how about your computer, it's software and the Internet? Have you ever used a phone, or turned on a light, or read a newspaper, or wondered about the mysteries of Space? This country has developed more technology than any other past or present, that we are all benefiting from. Furthermore, who does the world look to for justice in the world? Were it not the Americans who emerged victorious in WWI and WWII saving the world from tyranny and genocide? Did anyone else contribute more to the plight of the South Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Kuwaitis and Saudis, or to the people of Yugoslavia? Who stopped the communists from taking over the world? Has anyone else offered to bail out countless corrupt government after corrupt government, saving people from poverty, without even asking to be re-paid? Do I condone genocide? Of course not. But we, in this day and age, have all benefited from it. That is all I am saying. As for my comments on the need to reduce incentive for stability in the Middle East, I apologize for painting anyone on this list (who did not want to be painted) as working toward reducing dependency on foreign oil, specifically oil from the Middle East. What I meant to say, is that I am working to reduce our dependency on foreign oil so that we as a nation have less of a reason (incentive) to meddle in the affairs of the Middle East. As far as I can tell (and I have never been there) the region is fraught with religious strife, brutality, ignorance, and hatred. In short, most of the countries there seem almost laughably behind the times given their resources, corrupt, and no place to be if you were born with fallopian tubes and a uterus. Islamic law fosters fear, slows progress, and is easily abused by those in power. We are fighting the evil, backward, minority in Iraq for many reasons, oil, hope, and liberation among them. We have attempted to provide them with hope for a brighter future, teach them about democracy and free trade, so that we may watch them prosper, and no one can seem to get past centuries old grudges and hatred toward one another and us. It got so bad, one man ordered the hijacking and crashing of our own planes (once again our inventions) into our own skyscrapers (dido) because we had established a base in The Holy Land to promote stability in the region, and he couldn't handle we Infidels on his turf. Where were the Muslims after 9/11? I sure didn't hear cries of outrage and condemnation from their community, did you? In fact the silence, at least state-side, was deafening. We are infidels, and every good Muslim must rid the world of infidels according to the Koran, am I right? So I say, Fine, you want me dead? I'll fight you back by not buying your oil and watching you figure out the world doesn't work that way anymore and changing. I buy and promote biodiesel to give the people of the Middle East incentive to find another line of work and move forward. As for the non-American majority on this list, stop and consider, for a moment where you would be without us. Ryan -Original Message- From: appalenergy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 8:50 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war Crikey Ryan! Did you read what you wrote? Do you even understand what it is that you communicated? How distored a perspective can you have when you say that much more good has come from our use of the land for the good
RE: [biofuel] Phenolphthalein
Thanks Rodolpho, Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: Larosa Rodolfo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 April 2004 08:26 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Phenolphthalein Hello Dermont, Yes, is right !! Rodolfo - Original Message - From: Dermot [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 11:57 PM Subject: [biofuel] Phenolphthalein I've managed at last to get some phenolphthalein to perform titrations but unfortunately it's in powder form. I think it needs to be mixed with ethanol in a 1% w/v solution. Can anyone confirm this? Can I mix it with isopropyl alcohol instead? Thanks Dermot Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Phenolphthalein
Thanks for the help Paul, Now I can't get ethanol except in 45 gallon drums! Is vodka close enough to ethanol and could I mix the phenolphthalein with it? Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: gobie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 06 April 2004 10:27 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Phenolphthalein - Original Message - From: Dermot Subject: [biofuel] Phenolphthalein I've managed at last to get some phenolphthalein to perform titrations but unfortunately it's in powder form. I think it needs to be mixed with ethanol in a 1% w/v solution. Can anyone confirm this? Dissolve the phenolphthalein in 2/3 of the final volume of ethanol. When it has all dissolved add with stirring half as much distilled water. Add dilute sodium hydroxide solution ( the solution you use to titrate will do) until the phenolphthalein solution just shows a slight pinkish tinge. Store in an airtight bottle out of light.and away from sources of ignition. Can I mix it with isopropyl alcohol instead? I'm not sure what the solubility of phenolphthalein is in isopropyl alcohol. Could be worth a try. Regards Paul Gobert. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Copper reactor vessel
x-charset ISO-8859-1Thanks for the helpful advice. Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: girl_mark_fire [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 February 2004 09:17 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject:[biofuel] Re: Copper reactor vessel the materials in galvanizing (ie zinc) are also a catalyst for oxidation just like copper, so stay away from it if possible. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Copper is a catalyst for oxidation of biodiesel, causing a green oxidation of the metal and an oxidation of the fuel. snip In a message dated 2/7/04 12:43:12 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi, snip Is it possible to have the copper vessel galvanised and if so would the galvanised vessel be subject to rapid corrosion also? I knew I'd regret dropping out of chemistry class!!! Dermot - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
RE: [biofuel] Copper reactor vessel
x-charset ISO-8859-1Thanks for the helpful advice. Regards Dermot -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 February 2004 23:08 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject:Re: [biofuel] Copper reactor vessel Copper is a catalyst for oxidation of biodiesel, causing a green oxidation of the metal and an oxidation of the fuel. Probably not your best bet. Mild steel is safer, stainless is good. In a message dated 2/7/04 12:43:12 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi, I'm building my own biodiesel processor and I want to use a copper immersion heater vessel to mix the used oil and methoxide. I'm going to use Aleks Kac's two stage method. The vessel is already cone shaped and has the heater already installed so it seems perfect for the job. My worry is that it may corrode very quickly. Has anybody any experience of using copper vessels for the reactor? Is it possible to have the copper vessel galvanised and if so would the galvanised vessel be subject to rapid corrosion also? I knew I'd regret dropping out of chemistry class!!! Dermot - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
[biofuel] Copper reactor vessel
Hi, I'm building my own biodiesel processor and I want to use a copper immersion heater vessel to mix the used oil and methoxide. I'm going to use Aleks Kac's two stage method. The vessel is already cone shaped and has the heater already installed so it seems perfect for the job. My worry is that it may corrode very quickly. Has anybody any experience of using copper vessels for the reactor? Is it possible to have the copper vessel galvanised and if so would the galvanised vessel be subject to rapid corrosion also? I knew I'd regret dropping out of chemistry class!!! Dermot [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
