Re: [Biofuel] $1-billion worth of water pouring out of leaking lines - Niagara Falls Review - 2007.07.12
Approaching comparing apple to oranges here, so I have to agree with Kirk. The loss associated with the transportation of electrical power are known expected loss, loss that little can be done to prevent. The loss of water in the transportation of the water in this example is due to the deterioration of the transporting equipment. Again expected, but tolerated until the cost of loss nears the cost of repairs or replacement, just SOP. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. Kirk McLoren wrote: yes, but they represent reasonable engineering. The water mains are deferred maintenance. A different kind of engineering I suppose. */Paul S Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Funny thing, that's not funny is, about 50% of the energy contained in coal makes it to the power outlet. The rest is lost to heat loss, line losses and transformer losses. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] $1-billion worth of water pouring out of leaking lines - Niagara Falls Review - 2007.07.12
You're over-optimistic. A really good, modern coal fired power plant gives 40% thermal efficeicnecy at a high power rating. The line and transformer losses come after that. A combined-cycle natural gas fired plant (gas turbiine with a steam turbine working off the turbine exhaust gases ) will give a maximum of 58%. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario Paul S Cantrell wrote: Funny thing, that's not funny is, about 50% of the energy contained in coal makes it to the power outlet. The rest is lost to heat loss, line losses and transformer losses. [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] $1-billion worth of water pouring out of leaking lines - Niagara Falls Review - 2007.07.12
Hey Doug, Good point, the majority of coal plants are in the 40% ballpark, but I was being generous and including the combined cycle coal-fired plants. I've been to one in Columbia, SC that achieves 50% from coal. It also uses cool water from the bottom of the lake for cooling, so that increases efficiency, too. http://www.sceg.com/en/about-sceg/power-plants/fossil-fired/mcmeekin-station/McMeekin-Station.htm They burn 96 tons of coal per hour to generate 252 mWe. At 18 million BTU per ton, that works out to 50% at the power station bus. On 8/14/07, Doug Woodard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're over-optimistic. A really good, modern coal fired power plant gives 40% thermal efficeicnecy at a high power rating. The line and transformer losses come after that. A combined-cycle natural gas fired plant (gas turbiine with a steam turbine working off the turbine exhaust gases ) will give a maximum of 58%. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario Paul S Cantrell wrote: Funny thing, that's not funny is, about 50% of the energy contained in coal makes it to the power outlet. The rest is lost to heat loss, line losses and transformer losses. [snip] -- Thanks, PC He's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] $1-billion worth of water pouring out of leaking lines - Niagara Falls Review - 2007.07.12
$1-billion worth of water pouring out of leaking lines Thu 12 Jul 2007 Page: A6 Section: Local Byline: James Wallace Source: Osprey News Network; Review As much as $1 billion worth of drinking water disappears into the ground each year from rotting, leaky municipal water pipes, says the Ontario Sewer and Watermain Construction Association. Twenty to 40 per cent of all the water pumped through municipal water systems never reaches consumer taps. In Niagara Falls, this kind of loss accounts for about 16 per cent of the water the city buys from the region's treatment plants, city officials told The Review earlier this year. It means 84 per cent of the water the city buys actually makes it to the faucet. In Fort Erie, water losses are about 28 per cent, but they were as high as 35 per cent in the 1990s. What it means is we're paying for water we're not using and is not coming to our taps, Niagara Falls Mayor Ted Salci said. The watermain association recently estimated leaking lines cost $1 billion. I think it's something the public should be aware of, said watermain executive director Frank Zechner. It's a figure that would shock and outrage most consumers, said Conservative leader John Tory. If you told people that 20 per cent or more of the electricity they were paying for in their house was never putting on a light, was never running their TV, was just going off into the air, I mean they'd be outraged at that and demand it be fixed immediately. Water losses are a common problem in cities, said Niagara Falls community services director Ed Dujlovic. Over time, cracks will emerge. If you get it down to 10 per cent, you're doing really well, he said in February. Salci often talks about the need to spend public money on infrastructure like water mains. Niagara Falls has been spending record amounts on infrastructure in the last few years. But the city could use help from the federal or provincial government, he said. City officials are exploring the use of a new trenchless technology that would seal cracks by inserting a coating like a long balloon that hardens and fixes the crack, Salci said. NDP critic Peter Tabuns said the fact municipalities are wasting such enormous amounts of water through leaky pipes undermines the water conservation message they are delivering. Ontario officials said Wednesday the $1 billion estimate of waste calculated by the watermain association is not surprising. It does fit in with some of the anecdotal evidence we've been hearing, said Amy Tang, a spokesman for Public Infrastructure Renewal Minister David Caplan. The province has invested millions of dollars to upgrade water systems, particularly smaller ones, Tang said. The watermain association called on government to invest $34 billion in repairs over the next 15 years. James Wallace is Queen's Park bureau chief for Osprey News Network. Contact the writer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] (c) 2007 Osprey Media Group Inc. All rights reserved. -- Darryl McMahon It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (now in print and eBook) http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] $1-billion worth of water pouring out of leaking lines - Niagara Falls Review - 2007.07.12
Funny thing, that's not funny is, about 50% of the energy contained in coal makes it to the power outlet. The rest is lost to heat loss, line losses and transformer losses. On 8/13/07, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I think it's something the public should be aware of, said watermain executive director Frank Zechner. It's a figure that would shock and outrage most consumers, said Conservative leader John Tory. If you told people that 20 per cent or more of the electricity they were paying for in their house was never putting on a light, was never running their TV, was just going off into the air, I mean they'd be outraged at that and demand it be fixed immediately. snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] $1-billion worth of water pouring out of leaking lines - Niagara Falls Review - 2007.07.12
yes, but they represent reasonable engineering. The water mains are deferred maintenance. A different kind of engineering I suppose. Paul S Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Funny thing, that's not funny is, about 50% of the energy contained in coal makes it to the power outlet. The rest is lost to heat loss, line losses and transformer losses. On 8/13/07, Darryl McMahon wrote: I think it's something the public should be aware of, said watermain executive director Frank Zechner. It's a figure that would shock and outrage most consumers, said Conservative leader John Tory. If you told people that 20 per cent or more of the electricity they were paying for in their house was never putting on a light, was never running their TV, was just going off into the air, I mean they'd be outraged at that and demand it be fixed immediately. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
