Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel
Mike Weaver wrote: The short answer is no. Yes is just a little longer than no. Let me know if you have any other language questions. I do have three degrees in English and am always glad to help. chuckle Sir, I will take English lessons from you anytime. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel
I agree that B100 would probably burn well in a turbine. As pointed out in a previous post turbines will run on a wider range of fuels than almost any engine (except a steam locomotive??) But knowing something about the aviation industry I will hazard a guess that this will be the last place we will see eventually going over to biofuels. Hell long after the automotive industry went off tetraethyl lead you still had plenty of high compression aviation engines running it. Change comes about very slowly in the aviation circles. Maybe when the LIM cycle engine has been around for twenty years and general aviation pilots begin to hear about the guy who has one a few fields down the way we will begin to see some acceptance and trust of biofuels for aviation use. While airlines may benefit from fuel cost savings they will not risk running unproven fuel, heck they won't put fuel drained from tanks back in an aircraft. Engine manufacturers would have to run thousands of hours on the alt fuel before they would give approval to it's use for commercial aircraft use but they don't stand to gain anything from reduced emissions or airline X's reduced fuel costs so why would they do it? I'm not holding my breath on this one. Joe TarynToo wrote: Hi all, I wandered the web for a bit and found these as well many others: http://www.ueet.nasa.gov/Overview.html http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar99/922773845.Eg.r.html http://www.google.com/search? q=commercial+aircraft+fuel+efficiency++turboprop While these don't give specific answers, It seems like turboprops might be most efficient for delivering large loads, fairly quickly, with least fuel. Seems like one of the issues is pounds of fuel per hour vs speed. Does anyone know the fuel costs associated with delivering people at 800 kmph versus the 500 kmph? Should we be replacing our medium range jet fleets with turboprops? Taryn. http://ornae.com/ On Sep 4, 2005, at 2:43 AM, Alan Petrillo wrote: Greg and April wrote: The short answer is no. The short answer is _yes_. Baylor University did some testing with B20 in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine. The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but I can't find it just now. A Google search of the site produced this: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/ 19981001_gen-106.pdf Purdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the report is available here: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/ 19950601_gen-144.pdf Keep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines. As long as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what they're running on. You should see the list of alternate fuels for the OH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army! ... Jet travel is also one of the least efficient forms of transportation there is. That depends on how you look at it. If you consider it in terms of passenger seat miles per gallon then it comes out around 24mpg, IIRC, which beats most SUV's. I did have a link to an article which went into this much more in depth, but I have lost it. ... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel
Greg and April wrote: The short answer is no. The short answer is _yes_. Baylor University did some testing with B20 in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine. The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but I can't find it just now. A Google search of the site produced this: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19981001_gen-106.pdf Purdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the report is available here: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19950601_gen-144.pdf Keep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines. As long as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what they're running on. You should see the list of alternate fuels for the OH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army! The long answer is, BioDiesel does not have to BTU's of jet fuel No, it doesn't have the specific heat of jet fuel, but it's close enough that it makes little difference operationally. ( jet fuel is a highly refined cozen to jet fuel with allot of BTU's per gal ), Did you by any chance mean kerosene? Jet-A is high grade kerosene. Keep in mind, kerosene comes in many flavors, and jet fuel is only one of them. nor does it have the ability to take the low temperatures that jet fuel would encounter at altitude. This could be taken care of with a properly effective antigel agent. These things are workable, but, then you have to carry more fuel, and less cargo, and heated fuel tanks and fuel lines.This adds weight and costs to every aircraft, that is unacceptable. Many aircraft already have fuel heaters in their fuel lines to prevent fuel icing. The real problem is to prevent the fuel gelling in the tanks. Some heat already gets into the fuel tanks in many airliners because they use the fuel tanks as a heat sink for the airconditioning systems. I think only a good antigel agent would solve this completely, though. Jet travel is also one of the least efficient forms of transportation there is. That depends on how you look at it. If you consider it in terms of passenger seat miles per gallon then it comes out around 24mpg, IIRC, which beats most SUV's. I did have a link to an article which went into this much more in depth, but I have lost it. Don't forget, in the airline industry fuel efficiency means profits. Using biodiesel would only make it more inefficient. Maybe. But at least it would be using less petroleum. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel
Thanks for the info. I've read it, downloaded the study reports, read them, and passed them and your email on to the individual that was looking for this information. Good solid data. I think that with modification of the biodiesel transesterification process the TAN might be reduced, and as B20, looks like a potential reducer of dependence on petro products. Even at 20%, the total amount used by the airline industry would be reduced significantly. The CO(sub)2 numbers are impressive! Certainly worth further study and experimentation Thanks again! doug swanson Alan Petrillo wrote: Greg and April wrote: The short answer is no. The short answer is _yes_. Baylor University did some testing with B20 in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine. The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but I can't find it just now. A Google search of the site produced this: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19981001_gen-106.pdf Purdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the report is available here: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19950601_gen-144.pdf Keep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines. As long as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what they're running on. You should see the list of alternate fuels for the OH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army! -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel
Dear Alan,Greg and Petrillo Here in Brazil , the research that had been realized for military to replace Jet fuel using BioD in 1980 was done with positive results, but the details are not much known as less study were conducted at the time . By using low molecular fatty acids ester ,the BioD need to be engineered to be very good additive.Surely there are problems regard to viscosity.Small jet here are able to run with alcohol fuel and hence BioD will be also positive , may not be 100 percent. sd Pannirselvam Brazil On 9/4/05, Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg and April wrote:The short answer is no.The short answer is _yes_.Baylor University did some testing with B20in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine. The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but Ican't find it just now.A Google search of the site produced this: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19981001_gen-106.pdfPurdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the reportis available here: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19950601_gen-144.pdfKeep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines.Aslong as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what they're running on.You should see the list of alternate fuels for theOH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army!The long answer is, BioDiesel does not have to BTU's of jet fuelNo, it doesn't have the specific heat of jet fuel, but it's close enough that it makes little difference operationally.( jet fuelis a highly refined cozen to jet fuel with allot of BTU's per gal ),Did you by any chance mean kerosene?Jet-A is high grade kerosene.Keep in mind, kerosene comes in many flavors, and jet fuel is only one of them.nordoes it have the ability to take the low temperatures that jet fuel wouldencounter at altitude.This could be taken care of with a properly effective antigel agent. These things are workable, but, then you have to carry more fuel, and lesscargo, and heated fuel tanks and fuel lines.This adds weight and coststo every aircraft, that is unacceptable. Many aircraft already have fuel heaters in their fuel lines to preventfuel icing.The real problem is to prevent the fuel gelling in thetanks.Some heat already gets into the fuel tanks in many airliners because they use the fuel tanks as a heat sink for the airconditioningsystems.I think only a good antigel agent would solve this completely,though.Jet travel is also one of theleast efficient forms of transportation there is. That depends on how you look at it.If you consider it in terms ofpassenger seat miles per gallon then it comes out around 24mpg, IIRC,which beats most SUV's.I did have a link to an article which went into this much more in depth, but I have lost it.Don't forget, in the airline industry fuel efficiency means profits.Using biodiesel wouldonly make it more inefficient.Maybe.But at least it would be using less petroleum. AP___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Pagandai V PannirselvamUniversidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRNDepartamento de Engenharia Química - DEQCentro de Tecnologia - CTPrograma de Pós Graduação em Engenharia Química - PPGEQ Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPECAv. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus UniversitárioCEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - BrasilResidence :AvOdilon gome de lima, 2951, Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102 CapimMacioEP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - BrasilTelefone(fone ) ( 84 ) 3215-37690 Ramal21032171557Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 3215-3770 residencia 32171557 Cellular8488145083 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel
Hi all, I wandered the web for a bit and found these as well many others: http://www.ueet.nasa.gov/Overview.html http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar99/922773845.Eg.r.html http://www.google.com/search? q=commercial+aircraft+fuel+efficiency++turboprop While these don't give specific answers, It seems like turboprops might be most efficient for delivering large loads, fairly quickly, with least fuel. Seems like one of the issues is pounds of fuel per hour vs speed. Does anyone know the fuel costs associated with delivering people at 800 kmph versus the 500 kmph? Should we be replacing our medium range jet fleets with turboprops? Taryn. http://ornae.com/ On Sep 4, 2005, at 2:43 AM, Alan Petrillo wrote: Greg and April wrote: The short answer is no. The short answer is _yes_. Baylor University did some testing with B20 in their Beech King Air 90, and found that it did just fine. The report was available at the biodiesel.org website for a while, but I can't find it just now. A Google search of the site produced this: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/ 19981001_gen-106.pdf Purdue University also did some testing on aviation fuel, and the report is available here: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/ 19950601_gen-144.pdf Keep in mind, turbines are, almost by definition, multifuel engines. As long as it doesn't overheat their burn units turbines don't care what they're running on. You should see the list of alternate fuels for the OH-58 scout helicopters I flew in the Army! ... Jet travel is also one of the least efficient forms of transportation there is. That depends on how you look at it. If you consider it in terms of passenger seat miles per gallon then it comes out around 24mpg, IIRC, which beats most SUV's. I did have a link to an article which went into this much more in depth, but I have lost it. ... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel
A neighbor who recently retired from the airline industry has been asking me lately if there's a biofuel that can be substituted for jet fuel, and although I didn't know at the time, I've done some research since, and see that jet fuel is a variant of diesel. Any one out there know what kind of variant jet fuel is of diesel, (I seem to understand that it resembles kerosene) and can jet fuel be grown? doug swanson (in Ellijay, GA, not far from Atlanta GA, where gas prices spiked up to $6.00/gal. for a few hours yesterday) -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel
The short answer is no. The long answer is, BioDiesel does not have to BTU's of jet fuel ( jet fuel is a highly refined cozen to jet fuel with allot of BTU's per gal ), nor does it have the ability to take the low temperatures that jet fuel would encounter at altitude. These things are workable, but, then you have to carry more fuel, and less cargo, and heated fuel tanks and fuel lines.This adds weight and costs to every aircraft, that is unacceptable.Jet travel is also one of the least efficient forms of transportation there is.Using biodiesel would only make it more inefficient. Greg H. - Original Message - From: des [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel List Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 8:46 Subject: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel A neighbor who recently retired from the airline industry has been asking me lately if there's a biofuel that can be substituted for jet fuel, and although I didn't know at the time, I've done some research since, and see that jet fuel is a variant of diesel. Any one out there know what kind of variant jet fuel is of diesel, (I seem to understand that it resembles kerosene) and can jet fuel be grown? doug swanson (in Ellijay, GA, not far from Atlanta GA, where gas prices spiked up to $6.00/gal. for a few hours yesterday) -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel
I actually read something about this a couple days ago. YOu should be able to google it. There were problems using it with jets. Biggest concern was gelling at high altitudes. On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 14:46:13 +, des wrote A neighbor who recently retired from the airline industry has been asking me lately if there's a biofuel that can be substituted for jet fuel, and although I didn't know at the time, I've done some research since, and see that jet fuel is a variant of diesel. Any one out there know what kind of variant jet fuel is of diesel, (I seem to understand that it resembles kerosene) and can jet fuel be grown? doug swanson (in Ellijay, GA, not far from Atlanta GA, where gas prices spiked up to $6.00/gal. for a few hours yesterday) -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
