Re: [Biofuel] BD disinfo from SVO kit vendors
Hello Bruno et al. The viscosity and the high boiling point of SVO are just a consequence of the main molecule of SVO and its composition. The SVO consists from triglycerides together with some content of free acidity. Since we are mainly dealing with plant oils (or similar) we can expect the dominating fatty acid content to consist from oleic or linoic acid. These are C18:s which means that the triglyceride will have an approximate sum formula of C57H115O6 . This is a large molecule, which in itself is a reason for its combustion properties. Furthermore, the fatty acids are tied to a backbone of glycerine. This component can be extremely difficult to burn, since its urge to create polymeric compounds rather than vaporize is well known to anybody who have tried burning it. This property increases with the unsaturation of the oil. There are reports suggesting that highly saturated oils and fats are more easy to combust in diesel engines. So the sum is that biodiesel is more suitable than SVO. The additive we successfully tried was manufactured by Sybron Chemicals (SA) and consisted from phenolic compounds, which created soot which diluted the deposits. Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Bruno M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:01 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BD disinfo from SVO kit vendors Jan, SVO having a high boiling point doesn't mean it can't be used instead of dinodiesel in a diesel car, because, ... normal Diesel fuel is also completely evaporated before combustion. What you need is a fine mist, not evaporated fuel in a diesel motor. Dino diesel has a boiling point, rather a boiling-range, between 340 and 400°C, so even dino juice will not be much vaporized at the time of ignition. But it's possible that the higher the viscosity, boiling point, and vapor pressure is, the more difficult it is for your dieselcar's hardware to make the ultimate mist who gives the ideal burning of all fuel components. Thats why SVO conversion kits alway's have a fuel heather device in it to lower the viscosity so the pump - injector combo can produce a optimal ( or as close as possible ) mist. At 95°C sunflower oil has around the same viscosity then DD at 15°C. DOE and other governmental organizations still claim that SVO will shorten the live span of your motor and more cooking and reduced motoroil live span will appear. Mixing with dinojuice or an additive can also help but is not the best or preferred option if you want to go fossil free. What additive did you use or tested? Grts Bruno M. ~~ At 18:30 20/11/2007, Jan wrote: Hi all, I find it difficult to embrace any SVO technology. That is for many reasons, but the most outstanding is the high boiling point of SVO:s. Canola vaporizes completely at no less than 650-700oC, which is far too high for modern diesel engines which have a limit of acceptance at approx 350oC. This means that the SVO cannot combust completely in a diesel engine. This leads to deposits in the engine, some of them lethal to the engine, and lubricating oil contamination. This is a fact that no SVO kit can cure. I was into a SVO project during the 90:s and we found one additive that could keep the deposits at a certain level. But the composition of the additive was such, that the handling of the fuel became environmentally undesirable, also from the human health point of view. If somebody has an attractive technical/chemical solution for this I would be very interested to hear about it. Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:42 PM Subject: [Biofuel] BD disinfo from SVO kit vendors See: The SVO vs biodiesel argument: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svovsbd.html = -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.1/1141 - Release Date: 20/11/2007 11:34 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] BD disinfo from SVO kit vendors
See: The SVO vs biodiesel argument: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svovsbd.html SVO versus biodiesel is a pseudo argument that should not exist. It creates a false competitive situation between two good things and distracts from the real issues on how we can minimize the use of fossil fuels. - Hakan Falk So many SVO vendors take this approach. There's a growing market for SVO systems and for all ready-to-use biofuels solutions, why try to chisel off bits of the biodiesel market by spreading disinfo? I haven't seen Elsbett slagging biodiesel, for instance. But then (somehow it's no surprise) this is just yet another two-tank system, no optimised injector nozzles or anything a real system would have. We are market leader in converting diesel engines for straight vegetable oil in Germany, they said. :-) Now what was it Greasecar told me... Throughout the world we are recognized as the leading manufacturer, seller and producer of SVO conversion equipment. LOL! --- http://www.3egmbh.com/eng/technology.php Theoretically there are three ways of using vegetable oil as fuel: 1. Manufacturing an engine especially designed to run with vegetable oil: At this moment in time, this version is inefficient, as the attitude of the automobile and mineral oil companies only allows a small quantity of these engines at high prices. Our aim is to change this attitude, distribute the vegetable oil technology and to establish the vegetable oil engine. 2. Adaptation of the vegetable oil to the existing engine technology: It is inefficient to change the vegetable oil into biodiesel using a lot of energy and chemical processes, which then destroy gaskets and tubes, decrease the engine's power and increases consumption when the natural fuel has already better features to offer. 3. Adaptation of existing engines to the natural vegetable oil: Our company has developed this from of technology. We install additional components in vehicles so a mode is selectable to use pure vegetable oil or diesel fuel without having to change the engine. Form and extent of the alteration depends on the technology of the diesel engine. 3E GmbH Pflanzenöltechnik From: Frank Wohlberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Your link list Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:34:23 +0100 Hi Keith, is it possible to put a link of our company to your link list? We are market leader in converting diesel engines for straight vegetable oil in Germany but I couldn`t find a link to us. Thank you very much! Regards Frank Wohlberg http://www.3egmbh.com/eng/index.php ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BD disinfo from SVO kit vendors
Hi all, I find it difficult to embrace any SVO technology. That is for many reasons, but the most outstanding is the high boiling point of SVO:s. Canola vaporizes completely at no less than 650-700oC, which is far too high for modern diesel engines which have a limit of acceptance at approx 350oC. This means that the SVO cannot combust completely in a diesel engine. This leads to deposits in the engine, some of them lethal to the engine, and lubricating oil contamination. This is a fact that no SVO kit can cure. I was into a SVO project during the 90:s and we found one additive that could keep the deposits at a certain level. But the composition of the additive was such, that the handling of the fuel became environmentally undesirable, also from the human health point of view. If somebody has an attractive technical/chemical solution for this I would be very interested to hear about it. Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:42 PM Subject: [Biofuel] BD disinfo from SVO kit vendors See: The SVO vs biodiesel argument: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svovsbd.html SVO versus biodiesel is a pseudo argument that should not exist. It creates a false competitive situation between two good things and distracts from the real issues on how we can minimize the use of fossil fuels. - Hakan Falk So many SVO vendors take this approach. There's a growing market for SVO systems and for all ready-to-use biofuels solutions, why try to chisel off bits of the biodiesel market by spreading disinfo? I haven't seen Elsbett slagging biodiesel, for instance. But then (somehow it's no surprise) this is just yet another two-tank system, no optimised injector nozzles or anything a real system would have. We are market leader in converting diesel engines for straight vegetable oil in Germany, they said. :-) Now what was it Greasecar told me... Throughout the world we are recognized as the leading manufacturer, seller and producer of SVO conversion equipment. LOL! --- http://www.3egmbh.com/eng/technology.php Theoretically there are three ways of using vegetable oil as fuel: 1. Manufacturing an engine especially designed to run with vegetable oil: At this moment in time, this version is inefficient, as the attitude of the automobile and mineral oil companies only allows a small quantity of these engines at high prices. Our aim is to change this attitude, distribute the vegetable oil technology and to establish the vegetable oil engine. 2. Adaptation of the vegetable oil to the existing engine technology: It is inefficient to change the vegetable oil into biodiesel using a lot of energy and chemical processes, which then destroy gaskets and tubes, decrease the engine's power and increases consumption when the natural fuel has already better features to offer. 3. Adaptation of existing engines to the natural vegetable oil: Our company has developed this from of technology. We install additional components in vehicles so a mode is selectable to use pure vegetable oil or diesel fuel without having to change the engine. Form and extent of the alteration depends on the technology of the diesel engine. 3E GmbH Pflanzenöltechnik From: Frank Wohlberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Your link list Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 14:34:23 +0100 Hi Keith, is it possible to put a link of our company to your link list? We are market leader in converting diesel engines for straight vegetable oil in Germany but I couldn`t find a link to us. Thank you very much! Regards Frank Wohlberg http://www.3egmbh.com/eng/index.php ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] BD disinfo from SVO kit vendors
Hi Jan I agree with you. The ACREVO study found that veg-oil must be heated to 150 deg C (302 deg F) to achieve the same viscosity and fuel performance as petro-diesel: Atomisation tests showed that at 150 deg C the performance of the rapeseed oil is comparable with that of the diesel oil. http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm That's double the temperature the two-tank SVO systems use. At only 70-80 deg C. veg-oil is still much more viscous than petro-diesel - six times more viscous in the case of rapeseed oil (canola). And I don't believe it combusts properly. Anyway, Elsbett optimises the injector nozzle spray pattern for SVO, and it certainly helps. The Elsbett system has good long-term performance. I think the same applies to the other German single-tank SVO systems (more expensive). We got an Elsbett system mainly to solve the problem of using biodiesel in winter. Our WVO biodiesel is okay to about -5 deg C, but it gets to -12 C or lower here. We were using an additive, but with the same reservations as yours, it's toxic stuff. With the Elsbett system we've used biodiesel through two winters without additives and without any problems. For two years we used SVO during the summer and biodiesel in winter - the SVO was no use at below -5 deg C, it gelled in the tank, and the Elsbett system doesn't come with tank heating. But we stopped using SVO this year. Even with the Elsbett system, though it works, I don't think SVO is good fuel. We only use biodiesel now, all year round, and the Elsbett kit fills its original purpose of solving the winter problem with biodiesel. I'm glad we've dumped SVO. It doesn't compare with biodiesel, IMHO. Such statements are likely to cause furious protests from the SVO crowd, but facts are facts, and you pinned them down: coking, and lubrication oil contamination. Another point: when we have biodiesel seminars here or give demos, part of it is to start up the TownAce and everyone goes to the rear to experience for themselves how non-irritating biodiesel exhaust fumes are. I usually end up asking if I can get them some chairs and a cup of tea - they stand there behind the car chatting away about this and that, completely forgetting that they're wreathed in exhaust fumes. LOL! You sure wouldn't do that if it was burning petro-diesel, and not with SVO either, SVO fumes stink. Maybe not as bad as petro-diesel, but people never just stand there chatting when it's running SVO like they do with biodiesel. Trust your nose! Actually this study found SVO emissions are worse than petro-diesel in some ways: http://130.132.94.20/images/StudResearchInfo/ME_ELLIS_GEIST_WIZNIA.PDF Here's the full report: http://www.yale.edu/yedt/biofuel.pdf Still, to each his own. I think we'll probably only have really good solutions for SVO fuel when there's enough demand to persuade the car-makers to design true multi-fuel engines, and that will only happen (maybe) once a large number of people are using the existing SVO systems, for all their shortcomings. I just wish they'd stop all the BS about biodiesel, it doesn't help. Regards Keith Hi all, I find it difficult to embrace any SVO technology. That is for many reasons, but the most outstanding is the high boiling point of SVO:s. Canola vaporizes completely at no less than 650-700oC, which is far too high for modern diesel engines which have a limit of acceptance at approx 350oC. This means that the SVO cannot combust completely in a diesel engine. This leads to deposits in the engine, some of them lethal to the engine, and lubricating oil contamination. This is a fact that no SVO kit can cure. I was into a SVO project during the 90:s and we found one additive that could keep the deposits at a certain level. But the composition of the additive was such, that the handling of the fuel became environmentally undesirable, also from the human health point of view. If somebody has an attractive technical/chemical solution for this I would be very interested to hear about it. Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:42 PM Subject: [Biofuel] BD disinfo from SVO kit vendors See: The SVO vs biodiesel argument: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svovsbd.html SVO versus biodiesel is a pseudo argument that should not exist. It creates a false competitive situation between two good things and distracts from the real issues on how we can minimize the use of fossil fuels. - Hakan Falk So many SVO vendors take this approach. There's a growing market for SVO systems and for all ready-to-use biofuels solutions, why try to chisel off bits of the biodiesel market by spreading disinfo? I haven't seen Elsbett slagging biodiesel, for instance. But then (somehow it's no surprise) this is just yet another two-tank system, no optimised injector nozzles or anything a real system would have. We are market leader in converting diesel engines
Re: [Biofuel] BD disinfo from SVO kit vendors
Jan, SVO having a high boiling point doesn't mean it can't be used instead of dinodiesel in a diesel car, because, ... normal Diesel fuel is also completely evaporated before combustion. What you need is a fine mist, not evaporated fuel in a diesel motor. Dino diesel has a boiling point, rather a boiling-range, between 340 and 400°C, so even dino juice will not be much vaporized at the time of ignition. But it's possible that the higher the viscosity, boiling point, and vapor pressure is, the more difficult it is for your dieselcar's hardware to make the ultimate mist who gives the ideal burning of all fuel components. Thats why SVO conversion kits alway's have a fuel heather device in it to lower the viscosity so the pump - injector combo can produce a optimal ( or as close as possible ) mist. At 95°C sunflower oil has around the same viscosity then DD at 15°C. DOE and other governmental organizations still claim that SVO will shorten the live span of your motor and more cooking and reduced motoroil live span will appear. Mixing with dinojuice or an additive can also help but is not the best or preferred option if you want to go fossil free. What additive did you use or tested? Grts Bruno M. ~~ At 18:30 20/11/2007, Jan wrote: Hi all, I find it difficult to embrace any SVO technology. That is for many reasons, but the most outstanding is the high boiling point of SVO:s. Canola vaporizes completely at no less than 650-700oC, which is far too high for modern diesel engines which have a limit of acceptance at approx 350oC. This means that the SVO cannot combust completely in a diesel engine. This leads to deposits in the engine, some of them lethal to the engine, and lubricating oil contamination. This is a fact that no SVO kit can cure. I was into a SVO project during the 90:s and we found one additive that could keep the deposits at a certain level. But the composition of the additive was such, that the handling of the fuel became environmentally undesirable, also from the human health point of view. If somebody has an attractive technical/chemical solution for this I would be very interested to hear about it. Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:42 PM Subject: [Biofuel] BD disinfo from SVO kit vendors See: The SVO vs biodiesel argument: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svovsbd.html = -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.1/1141 - Release Date: 20/11/2007 11:34 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
