Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
No problem...what's BioK?FWIW, I really don't feel myself on the antibiotics - my digestion is fouled up.It is clearly not infected I wonder it I can stop them? Conventional wisdom is that once you start a regimen of antibiotics, you finish them. If you stop in mid-regimen, you run the risk of making the bugs that causing you problems now immune, as well as your body's own defense mechanisms have problems. I always eat yogurt when taking them and it helps the digestion. But then, I eat yogurt all the time, anyway. :-) Greg K___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Well, I was attacked by a pit bull while splitting wood this week on my land. (The owner did pull the dog away before I split *IT'S* head) After all the shots and what not, when I got a look at the wound which was way ugly, deep and full of who knows what I did consent to take a broad spectrum antibiotic. I'm eating yogurt too - hope it keep the good bugs up. I think antibiotics are way over prescribed in the US. I was a good American child and drank tons of milk and had constant ear infections. When I grew up I stopped drinking any milk and have never again had an ear infection. My daughter doesn't drink any milk and never gets ear infections. As for the raw food diet, I've done that, I personally felt great and did not lose an ounce, but I ate raw fish and grass-fed beef on it. When I tried it as stricly vegetarian I did feel like I had to eat all the time. Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, What is there to jump on here? I personally only take anti-biotics when it is life and death, but then I am allergic to most of them so it is a toss up which is going to kill me. A fever of 105, I would have dumped her in an ice bath and called an ambulance. Drugs do have their place, and yes, I too hope she would give them to her child rather than see the child permanently damaged. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:20 AM 4/16/2006, you wrote: Naturally, there's a little shudder here. What are grandparents for, but to shudder? I'm referring to my daughter who went down to 90 pounds on the raw food diet, and nearly died of pneumonia because she refused to take an anti-biotic. That was an interesting week, changing her sheets four times a day as she sweat into them, her fever going to 105, holding her fiery hand and offering sips of water all night. She would have held out, I think. She told me later that she finally agreed to go to hospital because she could see she was pushing me past MY limits of physical strength. Will she give her baby an antibiotic when it could save her life? Hope so. I guess Kim Travis will jump on me for that one. That thread has already had it's day, maybe. Cheers, Jesse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Greetings, You may want to look into taking kefir rather than yogurt. Here is my favorite kefir site. http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html I do have a few grains to share at this time. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:41 AM 4/17/2006, you wrote: Well, I was attacked by a pit bull while splitting wood this week on my land. (The owner did pull the dog away before I split *IT'S* head) After all the shots and what not, when I got a look at the wound which was way ugly, deep and full of who knows what I did consent to take a broad spectrum antibiotic. I'm eating yogurt too - hope it keep the good bugs up. I think antibiotics are way over prescribed in the US. I was a good American child and drank tons of milk and had constant ear infections. When I grew up I stopped drinking any milk and have never again had an ear infection. My daughter doesn't drink any milk and never gets ear infections. As for the raw food diet, I've done that, I personally felt great and did not lose an ounce, but I ate raw fish and grass-fed beef on it. When I tried it as stricly vegetarian I did feel like I had to eat all the time. Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, What is there to jump on here? I personally only take anti-biotics when it is life and death, but then I am allergic to most of them so it is a toss up which is going to kill me. A fever of 105, I would have dumped her in an ice bath and called an ambulance. Drugs do have their place, and yes, I too hope she would give them to her child rather than see the child permanently damaged. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:20 AM 4/16/2006, you wrote: Naturally, there's a little shudder here. What are grandparents for, but to shudder? I'm referring to my daughter who went down to 90 pounds on the raw food diet, and nearly died of pneumonia because she refused to take an anti-biotic. That was an interesting week, changing her sheets four times a day as she sweat into them, her fever going to 105, holding her fiery hand and offering sips of water all night. She would have held out, I think. She told me later that she finally agreed to go to hospital because she could see she was pushing me past MY limits of physical strength. Will she give her baby an antibiotic when it could save her life? Hope so. I guess Kim Travis will jump on me for that one. That thread has already had it's day, maybe. Cheers, Jesse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
kefir? off to the local coop, then. -Mike Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, You may want to look into taking kefir rather than yogurt. Here is my favorite kefir site. http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html I do have a few grains to share at this time. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:41 AM 4/17/2006, you wrote: Well, I was attacked by a pit bull while splitting wood this week on my land. (The owner did pull the dog away before I split *IT'S* head) After all the shots and what not, when I got a look at the wound which was way ugly, deep and full of who knows what I did consent to take a broad spectrum antibiotic. I'm eating yogurt too - hope it keep the good bugs up. I think antibiotics are way over prescribed in the US. I was a good American child and drank tons of milk and had constant ear infections. When I grew up I stopped drinking any milk and have never again had an ear infection. My daughter doesn't drink any milk and never gets ear infections. As for the raw food diet, I've done that, I personally felt great and did not lose an ounce, but I ate raw fish and grass-fed beef on it. When I tried it as stricly vegetarian I did feel like I had to eat all the time. Garth Kim Travis wrote: Greetings, What is there to jump on here? I personally only take anti-biotics when it is life and death, but then I am allergic to most of them so it is a toss up which is going to kill me. A fever of 105, I would have dumped her in an ice bath and called an ambulance. Drugs do have their place, and yes, I too hope she would give them to her child rather than see the child permanently damaged. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:20 AM 4/16/2006, you wrote: Naturally, there's a little shudder here. What are grandparents for, but to shudder? I'm referring to my daughter who went down to 90 pounds on the raw food diet, and nearly died of pneumonia because she refused to take an anti-biotic. That was an interesting week, changing her sheets four times a day as she sweat into them, her fever going to 105, holding her fiery hand and offering sips of water all night. She would have held out, I think. She told me later that she finally agreed to go to hospital because she could see she was pushing me past MY limits of physical strength. Will she give her baby an antibiotic when it could save her life? Hope so. I guess Kim Travis will jump on me for that one. That thread has already had it's day, maybe. Cheers, Jesse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Kim, Mike, Thanks for your letters. She's 25 years old, not for me to dump her into an icebath. This was the problem! I very much appreciate the place of anitbiotics and now I think she does too. Hard lesson. I really thank you Mike for the input on the raw meat thing, that surely would have helped, I'm sure. Incidentally, she has been back to a regular vegetarian diet for over a year, and is all well, she's vigorous, and back in university, all that stuff. Patience may be a good thing. Yup, kefir, or BioK? No real point though, until you have finished your antibiotic dosage. They'll all just get killed. Jesse From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 10:25:53 -0500 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet Greetings, What is there to jump on here? I personally only take anti-biotics when it is life and death, but then I am allergic to most of them so it is a toss up which is going to kill me. A fever of 105, I would have dumped her in an ice bath and called an ambulance. Drugs do have their place, and yes, I too hope she would give them to her child rather than see the child permanently damaged. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:20 AM 4/16/2006, you wrote: Naturally, there's a little shudder here. What are grandparents for, but to shudder? I'm referring to my daughter who went down to 90 pounds on the raw food diet, and nearly died of pneumonia because she refused to take an anti-biotic. That was an interesting week, changing her sheets four times a day as she sweat into them, her fever going to 105, holding her fiery hand and offering sips of water all night. She would have held out, I think. She told me later that she finally agreed to go to hospital because she could see she was pushing me past MY limits of physical strength. Will she give her baby an antibiotic when it could save her life? Hope so. I guess Kim Travis will jump on me for that one. That thread has already had it's day, maybe. Cheers, Jesse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
No problem... what's BioK? FWIW, I really don't feel myself on the antibiotics - my digestion is fouled up. It is clearly not infected I wonder it I can stop them? mark manchester wrote: Kim, Mike, Thanks for your letters. She's 25 years old, not for me to dump her into an icebath. This was the problem! I very much appreciate the place of anitbiotics and now I think she does too. Hard lesson. I really thank you Mike for the input on the raw meat thing, that surely would have helped, I'm sure. Incidentally, she has been back to a regular vegetarian diet for over a year, and is all well, she's vigorous, and back in university, all that stuff. Patience may be a good thing. Yup, kefir, or BioK? No real point though, until you have finished your antibiotic dosage. They'll all just get killed. Jesse From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 10:25:53 -0500 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet Greetings, What is there to jump on here? I personally only take anti-biotics when it is life and death, but then I am allergic to most of them so it is a toss up which is going to kill me. A fever of 105, I would have dumped her in an ice bath and called an ambulance. Drugs do have their place, and yes, I too hope she would give them to her child rather than see the child permanently damaged. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:20 AM 4/16/2006, you wrote: Naturally, there's a little shudder here. What are grandparents for, but to shudder? I'm referring to my daughter who went down to 90 pounds on the raw food diet, and nearly died of pneumonia because she refused to take an anti-biotic. That was an interesting week, changing her sheets four times a day as she sweat into them, her fever going to 105, holding her fiery hand and offering sips of water all night. She would have held out, I think. She told me later that she finally agreed to go to hospital because she could see she was pushing me past MY limits of physical strength. Will she give her baby an antibiotic when it could save her life? Hope so. I guess Kim Travis will jump on me for that one. That thread has already had it's day, maybe. Cheers, Jesse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Acidopholis, concentrated. Cute little tubs in your health food refrigerator section. Terrible digestion is your foe for sure with antibiotics. But it will soon be over and you'll be alive. Yay! Poor you, what a dreadful accident. Jesse From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:08:37 -0400 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet No problem... what's BioK? FWIW, I really don't feel myself on the antibiotics - my digestion is fouled up. It is clearly not infected I wonder it I can stop them? mark manchester wrote: Kim, Mike, Thanks for your letters. She's 25 years old, not for me to dump her into an icebath. This was the problem! I very much appreciate the place of anitbiotics and now I think she does too. Hard lesson. I really thank you Mike for the input on the raw meat thing, that surely would have helped, I'm sure. Incidentally, she has been back to a regular vegetarian diet for over a year, and is all well, she's vigorous, and back in university, all that stuff. Patience may be a good thing. Yup, kefir, or BioK? No real point though, until you have finished your antibiotic dosage. They'll all just get killed. Jesse From: Garth Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 10:25:53 -0500 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet Greetings, What is there to jump on here? I personally only take anti-biotics when it is life and death, but then I am allergic to most of them so it is a toss up which is going to kill me. A fever of 105, I would have dumped her in an ice bath and called an ambulance. Drugs do have their place, and yes, I too hope she would give them to her child rather than see the child permanently damaged. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:20 AM 4/16/2006, you wrote: Naturally, there's a little shudder here. What are grandparents for, but to shudder? I'm referring to my daughter who went down to 90 pounds on the raw food diet, and nearly died of pneumonia because she refused to take an anti-biotic. That was an interesting week, changing her sheets four times a day as she sweat into them, her fever going to 105, holding her fiery hand and offering sips of water all night. She would have held out, I think. She told me later that she finally agreed to go to hospital because she could see she was pushing me past MY limits of physical strength. Will she give her baby an antibiotic when it could save her life? Hope so. I guess Kim Travis will jump on me for that one. That thread has already had it's day, maybe. Cheers, Jesse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Hi again Keith, [snip] they say Naah, you're nuts, this is the way our grandfathers and great-grandfathers always did it and it's good enough for us. Why do people forget that? Don't know. Maybe it wouldn't work so well otherwise. My mother was herself arrested in a political demonstration, yet is deeply horrified that my daughter would expose herself to the possibility. Okay, I guess she sees it as a low point in her political career. I got arrested too, in a different sort of political demonstration, but it's just something that happened. There's no dishonour in such an arrest. But there's also Rachel Corrie, and a hell of a lot of other people. That's something to be concerned about. Absolutely right. [more snipping, this letter is getting REALLY long] They say people who have children and people who don't have children always feel sorry for each other. I think that's really funny! There's certainly regret either way. The way I heard it, those with children and those without ENVY each other. Whoops! There we go. I see I'll have to explain myself. I love lots of my friends and I love their families and their children, but I've never envied anybody for having children. Truly, never. No regret, not even a twinge, not ever. Yay! To a lot of parents that simply has to mean I just don't understand, or that I just won't admit it, unless I'm some kind of inhuman monster inside. I don't appear to be a monster, so I must simply be deluded - it's self-evident that life cannot be fulfilled without having children. Some people have told me What a pity, you'd make such a good father. But I'd make a lousy father - the only reason they think I'd make a good father is that I'm not one. People who want children should have them. People who wanted children and didn't have them will have regrets instead and maybe envy, and that's always sad. Then there are people who didn't want them but didn't quite realise it and went along with the tide and it happened to them anyway, which doesn't usually work out well for anyone. But I don't think people who didn't want them and deliberately didn't have them feel any regret, unless they made a mistake. But it's not easy not to have children, you have to be determined, there's a lot of pressure. You do get the chance to change your mind, to say the least. I'm quite pro-choice, myself. Child-rearing is hard enough without actually wanting it! Babies change EVERYTHING! And lots of people don't want to fix something that's not broken. Like everything else that's alive, I'm the current keeper of a portion of life that's been faithfully passed along millions of times from generation to generation over more than a billion years. That's all very humbling no doubt, but it doesn't mean I have any sacred obligation to pass it along to the next link in the chain, that's up to me. It might sound a bit specious to say that maybe if it shouldn't have ended here and now with me I wouldn't have been able to put a stop to it, but it might be true. Among other things. What's so special about me anyway that posterity can't do without? Very unconvincing. I would even politely suggest that you would perhaps not be the excellent teacher you are if you had put your energy into raising a bunch of kids. How much steam does a human being have? I feel pretty pooped after twenty-five years of mothering our four kids. How else might I have turned out? Once you realise it's purely your own decision and you're free to make either way, if indeed that's the case, it's kind of hard to find any good reason for having them. You think it has to be brain chemicals or something doing weird Darwinian things to people's heads that makes them feel that way or they just wouldn't do it to themselves. From this point of view it's the parents who're deluded. The strange difference is that one wouldn't dream of applying such thinking to anyone, it's just a thought, not a prejudice, but the parents feel no such inhibition. Usually they don't want to mention it because they'd hate to embarrass you, poor thing. LOL! I wouldn't know if they're envious, but I've been told a few times by parents that it's all very well for me, I don't have any responsibilities to think about so I can do whatever I like. As if I've shirked my duty or something. True that I don't have their responsibilities, but they can't seem to conceive of any other kind. I don't think that was envy, more like resentment. Feel sorry for, envy... maybe it's just can't understand. But the feel-sorry-for version tickles me. Quite often people with children feel sorry for me, and I think it's funny. Not when they get to know me a bit better though. Maybe then they just think it serves me right, LOL! Let there be no guilt in this choice, for crying out loud, and no blame! Kahlil Gibran, also FWIW, wrote that children are the arrows of the future, you can
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
mark manchester wrote: Hi again Keith, [snip] they say Naah, you're nuts, this is the way our grandfathers and great-grandfathers always did it and it's good enough for us. Sometimes it's true - my greats heated with wood, didn't use chemicals on their farms and travelled by sail ;-) Why do people forget that? Don't know. Maybe it wouldn't work so well otherwise. My mother was herself arrested in a political demonstration, yet is deeply horrified that my daughter would expose herself to the possibility. Okay, I guess she sees it as a low point in her political career. I got arrested too, in a different sort of political demonstration, but it's just something that happened. There's no dishonour in such an arrest. But there's also Rachel Corrie, and a hell of a lot of other people. That's something to be concerned about. Absolutely right. [more snipping, this letter is getting REALLY long] They say people who have children and people who don't have children always feel sorry for each other. I think that's really funny! There's certainly regret either way. The way I heard it, those with children and those without ENVY each other. Whoops! There we go. I see I'll have to explain myself. I love lots of my friends and I love their families and their children, but I've never envied anybody for having children. Truly, never. No regret, not even a twinge, not ever. Yay! To a lot of parents that simply has to mean I just don't understand, or that I just won't admit it, unless I'm some kind of inhuman monster inside. I don't appear to be a monster, so I must simply be deluded - it's self-evident that life cannot be fulfilled without having children. Some people have told me What a pity, you'd make such a good father. But I'd make a lousy father - the only reason they think I'd make a good father is that I'm not one. People who want children should have them. People who wanted children and didn't have them will have regrets instead and maybe envy, and that's always sad. Then there are people who didn't want them but didn't quite realise it and went along with the tide and it happened to them anyway, which doesn't usually work out well for anyone. But I don't think people who didn't want them and deliberately didn't have them feel any regret, unless they made a mistake. But it's not easy not to have children, you have to be determined, there's a lot of pressure. You do get the chance to change your mind, to say the least. I'm quite pro-choice, myself. Child-rearing is hard enough without actually wanting it! Babies change EVERYTHING! And lots of people don't want to fix something that's not broken. Like everything else that's alive, I'm the current keeper of a portion of life that's been faithfully passed along millions of times from generation to generation over more than a billion years. That's all very humbling no doubt, but it doesn't mean I have any sacred obligation to pass it along to the next link in the chain, that's up to me. It might sound a bit specious to say that maybe if it shouldn't have ended here and now with me I wouldn't have been able to put a stop to it, but it might be true. Among other things. What's so special about me anyway that posterity can't do without? Very unconvincing. I would even politely suggest that you would perhaps not be the excellent teacher you are if you had put your energy into raising a bunch of kids. How much steam does a human being have? I feel pretty pooped after twenty-five years of mothering our four kids. How else might I have turned out? Once you realise it's purely your own decision and you're free to make either way, if indeed that's the case, it's kind of hard to find any good reason for having them. You think it has to be brain chemicals or something doing weird Darwinian things to people's heads that makes them feel that way or they just wouldn't do it to themselves. From this point of view it's the parents who're deluded. The strange difference is that one wouldn't dream of applying such thinking to anyone, it's just a thought, not a prejudice, but the parents feel no such inhibition. Usually they don't want to mention it because they'd hate to embarrass you, poor thing. LOL! I wouldn't know if they're envious, but I've been told a few times by parents that it's all very well for me, I don't have any responsibilities to think about so I can do whatever I like. As if I've shirked my duty or something. True that I don't have their responsibilities, but they can't seem to conceive of any other kind. I don't think that was envy, more like resentment. Feel sorry for, envy... maybe it's just can't understand. But the feel-sorry-for version tickles me. Quite often people with children feel sorry for me, and I think it's funny. Not when they get to know me a bit better though. Maybe then they just think it serves me right, LOL! Let there be no
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Greetings, What is there to jump on here? I personally only take anti-biotics when it is life and death, but then I am allergic to most of them so it is a toss up which is going to kill me. A fever of 105, I would have dumped her in an ice bath and called an ambulance. Drugs do have their place, and yes, I too hope she would give them to her child rather than see the child permanently damaged. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:20 AM 4/16/2006, you wrote: Naturally, there's a little shudder here. What are grandparents for, but to shudder? I'm referring to my daughter who went down to 90 pounds on the raw food diet, and nearly died of pneumonia because she refused to take an anti-biotic. That was an interesting week, changing her sheets four times a day as she sweat into them, her fever going to 105, holding her fiery hand and offering sips of water all night. She would have held out, I think. She told me later that she finally agreed to go to hospital because she could see she was pushing me past MY limits of physical strength. Will she give her baby an antibiotic when it could save her life? Hope so. I guess Kim Travis will jump on me for that one. That thread has already had it's day, maybe. Cheers, Jesse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Hi Keith and everyone, If I could jump in on the subject of people having kids for a moment...I have friends who are great teachers. Of them, a large portion of them do not have children by choice. They love teaching but having kids of their own is not part of the equation. Teaching requires continual learning and less time for personal pursuits. Children, for them, would remove the ability and freedom to teach. I have always felt that Keith is a great teacher. Taking information and presenting it to everyone in a concise form that we all can use and understand. This does not make a great teacher a great parent. Also, I was raised on Frank Zappa. The first album that I was allowed to buy was Hot Rats.Music from the factories of mass consumption had no appeal for me. I remember listening to Iggy Pop and the Stooges - Raw Power when I was eight years old and watching my mother cringe. In the era of Disco, the Sex Pistols was the perfect antidote. Mom hated that one.All my life music has been different than the big box, money making machine that we are forced to endure on broadcast radio. But I digress...fredfredOn 4/14/06, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi again Jessesnip (Off-topic??? Grrr!) Sure, just as long as you're blithe about it. I see your Grrr!What, the care and future of the planet is not off-topic,eh?Good point.I guess I was confining my thinking to the Title.Well, that too.snip Balance of idealism and practicality indeed.But what kid is practical? Bringing up the question of when is it that human beings become1) aware of their mortaility2) humbled by it3) able to get anybody to listen to them. Okay, I'll try, though how would I know... When it's too late? Or just in time maybe.This is IMHE the prevailing feeling among very many 20-somethings.A sortof terrible urgency, bordering on despair. But that doesn't strike me as inappropriate right now. This is about the Sixties. Don't trust anyone over 30! they used to say in the Sixties. LOL! But it's a lot easier to get taken seriously after you're 30, suddenly you find you don't have to bother about it much anymore. Hopefully there's still something left by then. You know the old saying: If you're not a liberal when you're 25 there's something wrong with you; if you're still a liberal when you're 35 there's something wrong with you. But that's the if-you-can't-beat-them-join-them school of being taken seriously. Yes, the hard line. Psychologists have said 80% or something of people don't show any significant further character development after the age of 25. So maybe your answer is 25. But idealism? They want to change the world? Not 25 then, not if you're talking of the creative minority. But who'd want to be part of the creative minority anyway? Ahead of their time, out of step with everyone else, and totally essential. Yuk. And never taken seriously. Every peasant village has its innovator farmer, he tinkers with stuff, tries it this way and that way and finds some better answers, but everyone else laughs at him. But it turns out that when their sons grow up and take over they do it the tinker's way, and when someone new suggests something different they say Naah, you're nuts, this is the way our grandfathers and great-grandfathers always did it and it's good enough for us.Why do people forget that?Don't know. Maybe it wouldn't work so well otherwise.My mother was herself arrested in a political demonstration, yet is deeply horrified that my daughter would expose herselfto the possibility.Okay, I guess she sees it as a low point in herpolitical career.I got arrested too, in a different sort of political demonstration, but it's just something that happened.There's no dishonour in such an arrest. But there's also RachelCorrie, and a hell of a lot of other people. That's something to beconcerned about. When my friends and I started turning about 50 we started saying things like this, with some dismay: But the more I learn the less I know! LOL! At least it's a bit humble. A guy I worked for once told me I'm the sort of person who never stops learning, which kind of startled me at the time. He wasn't being nice, he was angry with me. With any luck I'll go on knowing less and less until finally I know nothing at all - nirvana! It makes you think of the 80% who stop at 25, maybe it's learning that they stop doing. Well, I have no argument with them at all, and it doesn't have to stop them growing old and wise, and graceful, it seeps in by osmosis anyway. Hope so. Kids, I guess if you just love them it'll all turn out the way it should, imsh'allah. But loving them can be really uphill work, they can sure be hard to like at times. It probably doesn't matter though because the chemo-psychological effects or whatever of the act of having them in the first place turns their parents permanently somewhat nuts so they go right on loving them anyway no matter what, fool me twice doesn't
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
LOL! No, she ran away at 16 and married a scoundrel. Never wanted to go to church again, either. Produced two great daughters, mind you, in war-time Canada, a single mom (scoundrel absentee). No family help. Quite crappy. She was my great friend in her retirement. Jesse From: Michael Gian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:56:03 -0500 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet -Original Message- From: mark manchester snip My Grandmother was sent to a convent when she was four, and never came back! Grandpa? A priest? GASOH, Michael ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Dear Gustl, From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:26:51 -0400 To: mark manchester Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet Hallo Jesse, Hey dere! So how's by you, eh? Well, I know a fellow named Mark who used to live in Manchester, Michigan. Wednesday, 12 April, 2006, 18:00:11, you wrote: mm Hi Gustl, Mike, mm No one ever answers my posts (except Keith, our hero), so I can mm blithely write on this delightfully off-topic topic. ...snip... mm Balance of idealism and practicality indeed. But what kid is mm practical? Bringing up the question of when is it that human mm beings become 1) aware of their mortaility 2) humbled by it 3) mm able to get anybody to listen to them. I mean this not mm morphologically, but as a maturity thing. mm Kids today! So accountable! Like THEY have to fix everything. mm While listening to the Beatles!!! (I have not criticized my mm children on this, incidentally, they are still impressed that I mm know all the words.) Well, I just arrived home and downloaded my mail and see that Keith has already answered you. The only things I have to add are that it is the balance which is of primary importance and I like Frank Sinatra as well as Frank Zappa. Well, I guess I should add that if you want to hear the best album ever recorded, IMNSHO, try and find Willis Alan Ramsey. He only made one album and it had his name. Every song on the thing is a winner. I'll take any advice in music that you offer. I'm sure you're very discerning. I'm rushing out to find this Willis Alan Ramsey. My taste in music is eclectic in the extreme. We once had to write an essay on our favorite type of music and it wouldn't have taken me an essay to tell that...good music. You know it when you hear it even if you don't understand the language the words are in or recognize the instruments which are being played. ;o) Hope you get some other answers brother. I can't imagine Keith being the only one to answer any post on this list. hahaha Happy Happy, Gustl Thanks Gustl! Mark is my husband, sorry that my email name is so confusing. I have been reprimanded about this and should fix it, dammit! Thanks for answering my mail, but more, thanks for your many thoughtful and helpful posts, you are a very compassionate and informed person and I always rush to open your letters. Jesse ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Hi again Jesse snip (Off-topic??? Grrr!) Sure, just as long as you're blithe about it. I see your Grrr! What, the care and future of the planet is not off-topic, eh? Good point. I guess I was confining my thinking to the Title. Well, that too. snip Balance of idealism and practicality indeed. But what kid is practical? Bringing up the question of when is it that human beings become 1) aware of their mortaility 2) humbled by it 3) able to get anybody to listen to them. Okay, I'll try, though how would I know... When it's too late? Or just in time maybe. This is IMHE the prevailing feeling among very many 20-somethings. A sort of terrible urgency, bordering on despair. But that doesn't strike me as inappropriate right now. This is about the Sixties. Don't trust anyone over 30! they used to say in the Sixties. LOL! But it's a lot easier to get taken seriously after you're 30, suddenly you find you don't have to bother about it much anymore. Hopefully there's still something left by then. You know the old saying: If you're not a liberal when you're 25 there's something wrong with you; if you're still a liberal when you're 35 there's something wrong with you. But that's the if-you-can't-beat-them-join-them school of being taken seriously. Yes, the hard line. Psychologists have said 80% or something of people don't show any significant further character development after the age of 25. So maybe your answer is 25. But idealism? They want to change the world? Not 25 then, not if you're talking of the creative minority. But who'd want to be part of the creative minority anyway? Ahead of their time, out of step with everyone else, and totally essential. Yuk. And never taken seriously. Every peasant village has its innovator farmer, he tinkers with stuff, tries it this way and that way and finds some better answers, but everyone else laughs at him. But it turns out that when their sons grow up and take over they do it the tinker's way, and when someone new suggests something different they say Naah, you're nuts, this is the way our grandfathers and great-grandfathers always did it and it's good enough for us. Why do people forget that? Don't know. Maybe it wouldn't work so well otherwise. My mother was herself arrested in a political demonstration, yet is deeply horrified that my daughter would expose herself to the possibility. Okay, I guess she sees it as a low point in her political career. I got arrested too, in a different sort of political demonstration, but it's just something that happened. There's no dishonour in such an arrest. But there's also Rachel Corrie, and a hell of a lot of other people. That's something to be concerned about. When my friends and I started turning about 50 we started saying things like this, with some dismay: But the more I learn the less I know! LOL! At least it's a bit humble. A guy I worked for once told me I'm the sort of person who never stops learning, which kind of startled me at the time. He wasn't being nice, he was angry with me. With any luck I'll go on knowing less and less until finally I know nothing at all - nirvana! It makes you think of the 80% who stop at 25, maybe it's learning that they stop doing. Well, I have no argument with them at all, and it doesn't have to stop them growing old and wise, and graceful, it seeps in by osmosis anyway. Hope so. Kids, I guess if you just love them it'll all turn out the way it should, imsh'allah. But loving them can be really uphill work, they can sure be hard to like at times. It probably doesn't matter though because the chemo-psychological effects or whatever of the act of having them in the first place turns their parents permanently somewhat nuts so they go right on loving them anyway no matter what, fool me twice doesn't count. It has to work like that or the species would have snuffed it at square two, so nature in her infinite wisdom provides. Yup, a world of heartache. Lots of laughs too, luckily. Well, thanks but no thanks nature. Or was it Darwin. FWIW, from someone who's been one and determinedly avoided having any ever since. Not that I don't like them, of course I like them. But when they're being unlikeable I don't have to be there, among other advantages. They say people who have children and people who don't have children always feel sorry for each other. I think that's really funny! There's certainly regret either way. The way I heard it, those with children and those without ENVY each other. Whoops! There we go. I see I'll have to explain myself. I love lots of my friends and I love their families and their children, but I've never envied anybody for having children. Truly, never. No regret, not even a twinge, not ever. To a lot of parents that simply has to mean I just don't understand, or that I just won't admit it, unless I'm some kind of inhuman
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Howdy Gustl Hallo Jesse, Hey dere! So how's by you, eh? Well, I know a fellow named Mark who used to live in Manchester, Michigan. Wednesday, 12 April, 2006, 18:00:11, you wrote: mm Hi Gustl, Mike, mm No one ever answers my posts (except Keith, our hero), so I can mm blithely write on this delightfully off-topic topic. ...snip... mm Balance of idealism and practicality indeed. But what kid is mm practical? Bringing up the question of when is it that human mm beings become 1) aware of their mortaility 2) humbled by it 3) mm able to get anybody to listen to them. I mean this not mm morphologically, but as a maturity thing. mm Kids today! So accountable! Like THEY have to fix everything. mm While listening to the Beatles!!! (I have not criticized my mm children on this, incidentally, they are still impressed that I mm know all the words.) Well, I just arrived home and downloaded my mail and see that Keith has already answered you. The only things I have to add are that it is the balance which is of primary importance and I like Frank Sinatra as well as Frank Zappa. I can't say I like Frank Sinatra. I do like some of his songs though, and I enjoyed some of his movies. It's the Frank Sinatra ethos I meant really, but I'm sure you got that. We discussed this before, eh, you and me, or something similar. Now I have to add something I wrote underneath, sorry, can't help it. Please see below. Well, I guess I should add that if you want to hear the best album ever recorded, IMNSHO, try and find Willis Alan Ramsey. He only made one album and it had his name. Every song on the thing is a winner. Thankyou! My taste in music is eclectic in the extreme. And mine. We once had to write an essay on our favorite type of music and it wouldn't have taken me an essay to tell that...good music. You know it when you hear it even if you don't understand the language the words are in or recognize the instruments which are being played. ;o) Amongst the things it's not is the pre-digested pap that's packaged for mass consumption and marketed by the trends industry so the merchandising gets leveraged too and so on. There can be exceptions, they do say the most beautiful lotus grows in the dirtiest mud, which may well be true for a lotus but most things like good soil, and that ain't it. Thorny ground. ... even if you don't understand the language the words are in or recognize the instruments which are being played. ;o) Strange you should say that, I want to send you some music that's like that. Two different kinds. But I have to get hold of some gear first, I'm short of some hardware. Midori turns out to be short of the same hardware, we'll do it soon. Regards Keith Hope you get some other answers brother. I can't imagine Keith being the only one to answer any post on this list. hahaha Happy Happy, Gustl -- Dixie Hong Kong, 1995 Dixie is the Cantonese word for taxi, but it's not something you expect to hear in one. But this one was different -- not dixie though, Al Jolson. Al Jolson? In a Hong Kong taxi? Not a radio phone-in, not a chat show, not Canto-pop, but Al Jolson? Toot-toot-tootsie goodbye-yiii... Must be a reality slip -- it's thin stuff, reality, it's hardly there at all really, and it's hardly surprising if it slips sometimes. It's an odd feeling, sort of like a headache in the belly, but without the ache, and not in the belly -- you find yourself looking at the whole thing with deep suspicion, and then you realise you're in a dream, so it's okay if the apples are made of cheese and the restaurant just turned into a swimming pool and so on, only this time you realise you're not in a dream. A bit like the Chinese poet who dreamt he was a butterfly, and when he woke up he couldn't decide whether he was a man dreaming of being a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming of being a man, only I don't think butterflies dream, it would be superfluous. Toot-toot-tootsie don't cry-yiii... Things shimmered slightly like a hologram in an SF movie, then got a grip again. The radio wasn't jammed on the wrong channel, the music was coming from a tape, and the driver was bobbing his head in time, and sort of bobbing the cab through the traffic, also in time. If you don't get a letter then you'll know I'm in jail... That was a good line, I'd forgotten that one. I'd forgotten the song too. I'd even forgotten Al Jolson. And I didn't remember liking his singing much, but that's what I was doing now in this taxi. The song ended. What's the music? I asked. Al Jolson, said the driver. Good-ah? Yes. You like the old music? Yes, modern music, it doesn't, it hasn't got ... I don't like it. I like this music. The tape had moved on to orchestral evergreens. Nice tunes, I said. They are too, that's why they're evergreens, even if they aren't Frank Zappa or Beethoven or even Chuck Berry. I sometimes leave
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Hi Jesse Hi Gustl, Mike, No one ever answers my posts (except Keith, our hero), Heavens, Jesse, surely you can do better than that, I'm not even my hero! LOL! so I can blithely write on this delightfully off-topic topic. (Off-topic??? Grrr!) Sure, just as long as you're blithe about it. From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 17:41:59 -0400 To: Mike Weaver Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet Hallo Mike, Friday, 07 April, 2006, 20:04:32, you wrote: MW Uh, Yeah. Dude. MW We had all these great ideas, then we got really stoned and it MW drifted away. Actually brother, money entered the picture and the better portion of us just melded into the system. Seems like somehow folks just never learned to get the right balance of idealism and practicality. And with all the isms the we became exclusionary rather than inclusive and we started down that gradual slope. It really is a question of balance isn't it? Balance of idealism and practicality indeed. But what kid is practical? Bringing up the question of when is it that human beings become 1) aware of their mortaility 2) humbled by it 3) able to get anybody to listen to them. Okay, I'll try, though how would I know... When it's too late? Or just in time maybe. This is about the Sixties. Don't trust anyone over 30! they used to say in the Sixties. LOL! But it's a lot easier to get taken seriously after you're 30, suddenly you find you don't have to bother about it much anymore. Hopefully there's still something left by then. You know the old saying: If you're not a liberal when you're 25 there's something wrong with you; if you're still a liberal when you're 35 there's something wrong with you. But that's the if-you-can't-beat-them-join-them school of being taken seriously. Psychologists have said 80% or something of people don't show any significant further character development after the age of 25. So maybe your answer is 25. But idealism? They want to change the world? Not 25 then, not if you're talking of the creative minority. But who'd want to be part of the creative minority anyway? Ahead of their time, out of step with everyone else, and totally essential. Yuk. And never taken seriously. Every peasant village has its innovator farmer, he tinkers with stuff, tries it this way and that way and finds some better answers, but everyone else laughs at him. But it turns out that when their sons grow up and take over they do it the tinker's way, and when someone new suggests something different they say Naah, you're nuts, this is the way our grandfathers and great-grandfathers always did it and it's good enough for us. When my friends and I started turning about 50 we started saying things like this, with some dismay: But the more I learn the less I know! LOL! At least it's a bit humble. A guy I worked for once told me I'm the sort of person who never stops learning, which kind of startled me at the time. He wasn't being nice, he was angry with me. With any luck I'll go on knowing less and less until finally I know nothing at all - nirvana! It makes you think of the 80% who stop at 25, maybe it's learning that they stop doing. Well, I have no argument with them at all, and it doesn't have to stop them growing old and wise, and graceful, it seeps in by osmosis anyway. Kids, I guess if you just love them it'll all turn out the way it should, imsh'allah. But loving them can be really uphill work, they can sure be hard to like at times. It probably doesn't matter though because the chemo-psychological effects or whatever of the act of having them in the first place turns their parents permanently somewhat nuts so they go right on loving them anyway no matter what, fool me twice doesn't count. It has to work like that or the species would have snuffed it at square two, so nature in her infinite wisdom provides. Well, thanks but no thanks nature. Or was it Darwin. FWIW, from someone who's been one and determinedly avoided having any ever since. Not that I don't like them, of course I like them. But when they're being unlikeable I don't have to be there, among other advantages. They say people who have children and people who don't have children always feel sorry for each other. I think that's really funny! Kahlil Gibran, also FWIW, wrote that children are the arrows of the future, you can give them your love but not your thoughts, they have thoughts of their own. Or words to that effect. Whatever, youth is definitely wasted on them. :-) I mean this not morphologically, but as a maturity thing. Kids today! So accountable! Like THEY have to fix everything. While listening to the Beatles!!! LOL! There's hope. (I have not criticized my children on this, incidentally, they are still impressed that I know all the words.) But they do
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
"Just as long as nobody saves us from Frank Zappa."Yes! Brilliant!I'm liking this thread.:-)Mike"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe."- Frank ZappaKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi JesseHi Gustl, Mike,No one ever answers my posts (except Keith, our hero),Heavens, Jesse, surely you can do better than that, I'm not even my hero! LOL!so I can blithelywrite on this delightfully off-topic topic.(Off-topic??? Grrr!) Sure, just as long as you're blithe about it. From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 17:41:59 -0400 To: Mike Weaver <BIOFUEL@SUSTAINABLELISTS.ORG> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet Hallo Mike, Friday, 07 April, 2006, 20:04:32, you wrote: MW Uh, Yeah. Dude. MW We had all these great ideas, then we got really stoned and it MW drifted away. Actually brother, money entered the picture and the better portion of us just melded into the system. Seems like somehow folks just never learned to get the right balance of idealism and practicality. And with all the "isms" the "we" became exclusionary rather than inclusive and we started down that gradual slope. It really is a question of balance isn't it?Balance of idealism and practicality indeed. But what kid is practical?Bringing up the question of when is it that human beings become 1) aware oftheir mortaility 2) humbled by it 3) able to get anybody to listen tothem.Okay, I'll try, though how would I know...When it's too late? Or just in time maybe.This is about the Sixties. "Don't trust anyone over 30!" they used to say in the Sixties. LOL!But it's a lot easier to get taken seriously after you're 30, suddenly you find you don't have to bother about it much anymore. Hopefully there's still something left by then. You know the old saying: If you're not a liberal when you're 25 there's something wrong with you; if you're still a liberal when you're 35 there's something wrong with you. But that's the if-you-can't-beat-them-join-them school of being taken seriously. Psychologists have said 80% or something of people don't show any significant further character development after the age of 25. So maybe your answer is 25. But idealism? They want to change the world? Not 25 then, not if you're talking of the creative minority. But who'd want to be part of the creative minority anyway? Ahead of their time, out of step with everyone else, and totally essential. Yuk. And never taken seriously. Every peasant village has its innovator farmer, he tinkers with stuff, tries it this way and that way and finds some better answers, but everyone else laughs at him. But it turns out that when their sons grow up and take over they do it the tinker's way, and when someone new suggests something different they say Naah, you're nuts, this is the way our grandfathers and great-grandfathers always did it and it's good enough for us.When my friends and I started turning about 50 we started saying things like this, with some dismay: "But the more I learn the less I know!" LOL! At least it's a bit humble. A guy I worked for once told me I'm the sort of person who never stops learning, which kind of startled me at the time. He wasn't being nice, he was angry with me. With any luck I'll go on knowing less and less until finally I know nothing at all - nirvana! It makes you think of the 80% who stop at 25, maybe it's learning that they stop doing. Well, I have no argument with them at all, and it doesn't have to stop them growing old and wise, and graceful, it seeps in by osmosis anyway.Kids, I guess if you just love them it'll all turn out the way it should, imsh'allah. But loving them can be really uphill work, they can sure be hard to like at times. It probably doesn't matter though because the chemo-psychological effects or whatever of the act of having them in the first place turns their parents permanently somewhat nuts so they go right on loving them anyway no matter what, fool me twice doesn't count. It has to work like that or the species would have snuffed it at square two, so nature in her infinite wisdom provides. Well, thanks but no thanks nature. Or was it Darwin. FWIW, from someone who's been one and determinedly avoided having any ever since. Not that I don't like them, of course I like them. But when they're being unlikeable I don't have to be there, among other advantages. They say people who have children and people who don't have children always feel sorry for each other. I think that's really funny!Kahlil Gibran, also FWIW, wrote that children are the arrows of the future, you can give them your love but not your thoughts, they have thoughts of
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Hi Keith! From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:40:07 +0900 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet Hi Jesse Hi Gustl, Mike, No one ever answers my posts (except Keith, our hero), Heavens, Jesse, surely you can do better than that, I'm not even my hero! LOL! so I can blithely write on this delightfully off-topic topic. (Off-topic??? Grrr!) Sure, just as long as you're blithe about it. I see your Grrr! What, the care and future of the planet is not off-topic, eh? Good point. I guess I was confining my thinking to the Title. From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 17:41:59 -0400 To: Mike Weaver Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet Hallo Mike, Friday, 07 April, 2006, 20:04:32, you wrote: MW Uh, Yeah. Dude. MW We had all these great ideas, then we got really stoned and it MW drifted away. Actually brother, money entered the picture and the better portion of us just melded into the system. Seems like somehow folks just never learned to get the right balance of idealism and practicality. And with all the isms the we became exclusionary rather than inclusive and we started down that gradual slope. It really is a question of balance isn't it? Balance of idealism and practicality indeed. But what kid is practical? Bringing up the question of when is it that human beings become 1) aware of their mortaility 2) humbled by it 3) able to get anybody to listen to them. Okay, I'll try, though how would I know... When it's too late? Or just in time maybe. This is IMHE the prevailing feeling among very many 20-somethings. A sort of terrible urgency, bordering on despair. This is about the Sixties. Don't trust anyone over 30! they used to say in the Sixties. LOL! But it's a lot easier to get taken seriously after you're 30, suddenly you find you don't have to bother about it much anymore. Hopefully there's still something left by then. You know the old saying: If you're not a liberal when you're 25 there's something wrong with you; if you're still a liberal when you're 35 there's something wrong with you. But that's the if-you-can't-beat-them-join-them school of being taken seriously. Yes, the hard line. Psychologists have said 80% or something of people don't show any significant further character development after the age of 25. So maybe your answer is 25. But idealism? They want to change the world? Not 25 then, not if you're talking of the creative minority. But who'd want to be part of the creative minority anyway? Ahead of their time, out of step with everyone else, and totally essential. Yuk. And never taken seriously. Every peasant village has its innovator farmer, he tinkers with stuff, tries it this way and that way and finds some better answers, but everyone else laughs at him. But it turns out that when their sons grow up and take over they do it the tinker's way, and when someone new suggests something different they say Naah, you're nuts, this is the way our grandfathers and great-grandfathers always did it and it's good enough for us. Why do people forget that? My mother was herself arrested in a political demonstration, yet is deeply horrified that my daughter would expose herself to the possibility. Okay, I guess she sees it as a low point in her political career. When my friends and I started turning about 50 we started saying things like this, with some dismay: But the more I learn the less I know! LOL! At least it's a bit humble. A guy I worked for once told me I'm the sort of person who never stops learning, which kind of startled me at the time. He wasn't being nice, he was angry with me. With any luck I'll go on knowing less and less until finally I know nothing at all - nirvana! It makes you think of the 80% who stop at 25, maybe it's learning that they stop doing. Well, I have no argument with them at all, and it doesn't have to stop them growing old and wise, and graceful, it seeps in by osmosis anyway. Hope so. Kids, I guess if you just love them it'll all turn out the way it should, imsh'allah. But loving them can be really uphill work, they can sure be hard to like at times. It probably doesn't matter though because the chemo-psychological effects or whatever of the act of having them in the first place turns their parents permanently somewhat nuts so they go right on loving them anyway no matter what, fool me twice doesn't count. It has to work like that or the species would have snuffed it at square two, so nature in her infinite wisdom provides. Yup, a world of heartache. Lots of laughs too, luckily. Well, thanks but no thanks nature. Or was it Darwin. FWIW, from someone who's been one and determinedly avoided
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Hallo Jesse, Hey dere! So how's by you, eh? Well, I know a fellow named Mark who used to live in Manchester, Michigan. Wednesday, 12 April, 2006, 18:00:11, you wrote: mm Hi Gustl, Mike, mm No one ever answers my posts (except Keith, our hero), so I can mm blithely write on this delightfully off-topic topic. ...snip... mm Balance of idealism and practicality indeed. But what kid is mm practical? Bringing up the question of when is it that human mm beings become 1) aware of their mortaility 2) humbled by it 3) mm able to get anybody to listen to them. I mean this not mm morphologically, but as a maturity thing. mm Kids today! So accountable! Like THEY have to fix everything. mm While listening to the Beatles!!! (I have not criticized my mm children on this, incidentally, they are still impressed that I mm know all the words.) Well, I just arrived home and downloaded my mail and see that Keith has already answered you. The only things I have to add are that it is the balance which is of primary importance and I like Frank Sinatra as well as Frank Zappa. Well, I guess I should add that if you want to hear the best album ever recorded, IMNSHO, try and find Willis Alan Ramsey. He only made one album and it had his name. Every song on the thing is a winner. My taste in music is eclectic in the extreme. We once had to write an essay on our favorite type of music and it wouldn't have taken me an essay to tell that...good music. You know it when you hear it even if you don't understand the language the words are in or recognize the instruments which are being played. ;o) Hope you get some other answers brother. I can't imagine Keith being the only one to answer any post on this list. hahaha Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
-Original Message- From: mark manchester snip My Grandmother was sent to a convent when she was four, and never came back! Grandpa? A priest? GASOH, Michael ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
A back to the sixties theme with environmental musicians like the Rolling Stones, Bruce Cockburn, Paul McCartney, Sting and probably many other famous people (environmental artists) could bring a lot of attention to the urgency of slowing down global warming. It could be in the form of a huge concert or a recording similar to We are the World. Terry Dyck From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 19:50:56 +0900 Hi Gustl, Mike But it didn't drift away. Some people did, a lot of them, but it went on happening anyway. A lot of people didn't change, and a lot of those didn't get stuck in an old rut either, even if all the Rolling Stone ads were for Porsche and Bang Olefson these days. It got splintered too, but it never quite lost its cohesion, nor sight of its basic tenets, and it didn't just moulder, it picked up new people on the way. In quite a lot of ways it grew and matured. After all, there was something there ready to happen at Seattle in 1999. And since. Not quite the same as the sixties but not essentially different either. I think it made its mark on everyone involved, to a small or large extent their lives were differently focused and differently informed afterwards. It made its mark on everything, it's part of everyone's heritage. (Even if they didn't inhale!) And here we are in a global village discussing it, using Ivan Illich's learning web, FCOL, and talking quite a lot about the other superpower. The sixties isn't dead, it doesn't even smell bad. Too soon to tell if it was (is) a success or a failure as alleged, but it looks pretty good to me. It's about the only thing that does. Hang in there, keep on trucking! Don't trust anyone over 30! ROFL!! Not a bummer - happy happy! Best Keith Hallo Mike, Friday, 07 April, 2006, 20:04:32, you wrote: MW Uh, Yeah. Dude. MW We had all these great ideas, then we got really stoned and it MW drifted away. Actually brother, money entered the picture and the better portion of us just melded into the system. Seems like somehow folks just never learned to get the right balance of idealism and practicality. And with all the isms the we became exclusionary rather than inclusive and we started down that gradual slope. It really is a question of balance isn't it? MW Then it was the 80's. And here they slowly come again. MW Bummer Far out... Happy Happy, Gustl ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Hi Gustl, Mike, No one ever answers my posts (except Keith, our hero), so I can blithely write on this delightfully off-topic topic. From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 17:41:59 -0400 To: Mike Weaver Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet Hallo Mike, Friday, 07 April, 2006, 20:04:32, you wrote: MW Uh, Yeah. Dude. MW We had all these great ideas, then we got really stoned and it MW drifted away. Actually brother, money entered the picture and the better portion of us just melded into the system. Seems like somehow folks just never learned to get the right balance of idealism and practicality. And with all the isms the we became exclusionary rather than inclusive and we started down that gradual slope. It really is a question of balance isn't it? Balance of idealism and practicality indeed. But what kid is practical? Bringing up the question of when is it that human beings become 1) aware of their mortaility 2) humbled by it 3) able to get anybody to listen to them. I mean this not morphologically, but as a maturity thing. Kids today! So accountable! Like THEY have to fix everything. While listening to the Beatles!!! (I have not criticized my children on this, incidentally, they are still impressed that I know all the words.) MW Then it was the 80's. And here they slowly come again. MW Bummer Far out... We're just hoping to be helpful, eh? (as we say in Canada, crap, we really DO say that in Canada.) Cheers, Jesse Happy Happy, Gustl ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Hi Gustl, Mike But it didn't drift away. Some people did, a lot of them, but it went on happening anyway. A lot of people didn't change, and a lot of those didn't get stuck in an old rut either, even if all the Rolling Stone ads were for Porsche and Bang Olefson these days. It got splintered too, but it never quite lost its cohesion, nor sight of its basic tenets, and it didn't just moulder, it picked up new people on the way. In quite a lot of ways it grew and matured. After all, there was something there ready to happen at Seattle in 1999. And since. Not quite the same as the sixties but not essentially different either. I think it made its mark on everyone involved, to a small or large extent their lives were differently focused and differently informed afterwards. It made its mark on everything, it's part of everyone's heritage. (Even if they didn't inhale!) And here we are in a global village discussing it, using Ivan Illich's learning web, FCOL, and talking quite a lot about the other superpower. The sixties isn't dead, it doesn't even smell bad. Too soon to tell if it was (is) a success or a failure as alleged, but it looks pretty good to me. It's about the only thing that does. Hang in there, keep on trucking! Don't trust anyone over 30! ROFL!! Not a bummer - happy happy! Best Keith Hallo Mike, Friday, 07 April, 2006, 20:04:32, you wrote: MW Uh, Yeah. Dude. MW We had all these great ideas, then we got really stoned and it MW drifted away. Actually brother, money entered the picture and the better portion of us just melded into the system. Seems like somehow folks just never learned to get the right balance of idealism and practicality. And with all the isms the we became exclusionary rather than inclusive and we started down that gradual slope. It really is a question of balance isn't it? MW Then it was the 80's. And here they slowly come again. MW Bummer Far out... Happy Happy, Gustl ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Hallo Mike, Friday, 07 April, 2006, 20:04:32, you wrote: MW Uh, Yeah. Dude. MW We had all these great ideas, then we got really stoned and it MW drifted away. Actually brother, money entered the picture and the better portion of us just melded into the system. Seems like somehow folks just never learned to get the right balance of idealism and practicality. And with all the isms the we became exclusionary rather than inclusive and we started down that gradual slope. It really is a question of balance isn't it? MW Then it was the 80's. And here they slowly come again. MW Bummer Far out... Happy Happy, Gustl ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Yes! Yes! Yes!...where's my Uncle Sam suit?!Seriously,the return toa healthy counter-culture would be a really good thing (not that I remember the sixties).There are a few, less noticeable signs ofa government with too much power, bent on bringing "order" to the world and how it's messing withyour quality of life.This is my short list:1.) Too many laws:There are over 4000US federal laws - enough to make youwonder if you are breaking one right now and ifyou are dislikedenoughto have it enforced.2.) All the songs on the radio suck because too many artists listen to the sound of a cash register instead of their humanity. I haven't found a connection to the government yet but, I think that artists reflect the culture around them which might explain it's occurrence.3.) Everybody is scared but nobody can provide a good example to show why. MikeKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.alternet.org/story/33896/Bring the Sixties Out of the ClosetBy Don Hazen, AlterNet. Posted March 23, 2006.We need to resurrect the good '60s -- a time when acting, despite being messy and imperfect, made a lot of good things happen.Photo courtesy of David Fenton, from his book Shots, published by Ten Speed Press.Late into Dana Spiotta's brilliant new novel, "Eat the Document," the protagonist, a woman who has lived "underground" for years, hiding from the consequences of a 1960s political protest gone badly awry, flashes back to the moment of choice:"The question is, do we want to leave action to the brutes of the world? There are some inherent problems built into acting. It lacks perfection. But I believe we must fight back, or we will feel shame all our lives. We, the privileged, are more obligated. It is a moral duty to do something, however imperfect. If we don't do something, all our lives we will feel regret."Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the '60s (actually the period from '67 to '73) -- that political era so filled with possibility, so much a part of the blood and souls of millions of aging baby boomers like myself. The period was profoundly effective in the changes it provoked, yet is so persistently pilloried for its exaggerated excesses. One reason I find myself looking back is the pervasive feeling of political impotence so many of us feel at this moment in history, and our seeming inability to act -- to be noticed, to make a difference.There are some present-day chilling parallels to the repression of the Nixon era -- and of course many differences -- but there is a feeling in the air that smells like the '60s, that sends paranoid vibes through the body politic. The events taking place -- warrantless wiretapping, political corruption, torture, the war in Iraq with its disgusting profiteering while tens of thousands of people die -- demand a response equal to the situation, Yet we sit without a clear path showing us our step.A short time ago, in a funding appeal to the AlterNet community, I wrote: "I haven't felt this angry, frightened or radical in a long time. We can no longer just do what we have been doing. In my several decades working in politics and media, the present feels dire."Those were my emotions; however, I didn't offer an action plan. The best I could do was ask for support so AlterNet could continue being a thorn in the side of the Bush administration. Important, but not sufficient.In the first draft of my appeal letter, I had also written: "Not since John Mitchell was attorney general and a paranoid, anti-Semitic Richard Nixon at the helm, have we been under an assault close to what we have today. And we don't have a Watergate to get Bush out of office." My editor suggested I take those sentences out -- "No need to go back to the past, and younger readers probably won't relate to this piece of history," she said. So I did.But my memory of that time is still so powerful, because many of us did act -- sometimes wildly, sometimes irresponsibly -- and we couldn't be ignored. And who can say that the Bush administration isn't shockingly irresponsible every day?I remember so clearly the May Day 1971 protests in Washington, D.C., glaring at Attorney General John Mitchell as he stood on the roof of the Justice Department, puffing his ever-present pipe and pretending to ignore the thousands of screaming, chanting masses in the street. The WikiPedia describes May 3, 1971, as "one of the most disruptive actions of the Vietnam War era."The threat caused by the May Day Protests forced the Nixon administration to create a virtual state of siege in the nation's capital. Thousands of federal and National Guard troops, along with local police, suppressed the disorder, and by the time it was over several days later, over 10,000 would be arrested. It would be the largest mass arrest in U.S. history.That's not a typo: More than 10,000 people were arrested, jammed into jails that resembled crowded elevators and bused out to RFK Stadium. It was crazy, anarchistic and
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
Uh, Yeah. Dude. We had all these great ideas, then we got really stoned and it drifted away. Then it was the 80's. Bummer Michael Redler wrote: Yes! Yes! Yes! ...where's my Uncle Sam suit?! Seriously, the return to a healthy counter-culture would be a really good thing (not that I remember the sixties). There are a few, less noticeable signs of a government with too much power, bent on bringing order to the world and how it's messing with your quality of life. This is my short list: 1.) Too many laws: There are over 4000 US federal laws - enough to make you wonder if you are breaking one right now and if you are disliked enough to have it enforced. 2.) All the songs on the radio suck because too many artists listen to the sound of a cash register instead of their humanity. I haven't found a connection to the government yet but, I think that artists reflect the culture around them which might explain it's occurrence. 3.) Everybody is scared but nobody can provide a good example to show why. Mike */Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: http://www.alternet.org/story/33896/ Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet By Don Hazen, AlterNet. Posted March 23, 2006. We need to resurrect the good '60s -- a time when acting, despite being messy and imperfect, made a lot of good things happen. Photo courtesy of David Fenton, from his book Shots, published by Ten Speed Press. Late into Dana Spiotta's brilliant new novel, Eat the Document, the protagonist, a woman who has lived underground for years, hiding from the consequences of a 1960s political protest gone badly awry, flashes back to the moment of choice: The question is, do we want to leave action to the brutes of the world? Š There are some inherent problems built into acting. It lacks perfection. But I believe we must fight back, or we will feel shame all our lives. We, the privileged, are more obligated. It is a moral duty to do something, however imperfect. Š If we don't do something, all our lives we will feel regret. Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the '60s (actually the period from '67 to '73) -- that political era so filled with possibility, so much a part of the blood and souls of millions of aging baby boomers like myself. The period was profoundly effective in the changes it provoked, yet is so persistently pilloried for its exaggerated excesses. One reason I find myself looking back is the pervasive feeling of political impotence so many of us feel at this moment in history, and our seeming inability to act -- to be noticed, to make a difference. There are some present-day chilling parallels to the repression of the Nixon era -- and of course many differences -- but there is a feeling in the air that smells like the '60s, that sends paranoid vibes through the body politic. The events taking place -- warrantless wiretapping, political corruption, torture, the war in Iraq with its disgusting profiteering while tens of thousands of people die -- demand a response equal to the situation, Yet we sit without a clear path showing us our step. A short time ago, in a funding appeal to the AlterNet community, I wrote: I haven't felt this angry, frightened or radical in a long time. We can no longer just do what we have been doing. In my several decades working in politics and media, the present feels dire. Those were my emotions; however, I didn't offer an action plan. The best I could do was ask for support so AlterNet could continue being a thorn in the side of the Bush administration. Important, but not sufficient. In the first draft of my appeal letter, I had also written: Not since John Mitchell was attorney general and a paranoid, anti-Semitic Richard Nixon at the helm, have we been under an assault close to what we have today. And we don't have a Watergate to get Bush out of office. My editor suggested I take those sentences out -- No need to go back to the past, and younger readers probably won't relate to this piece of history, she said. So I did. But my memory of that time is still so powerful, because many of us did act -- sometimes wildly, sometimes irresponsibly -- and we couldn't be ignored. And who can say that the Bush administration isn't shockingly irresponsible every day? I remember so clearly the May Day 1971 protests in Washington, D.C., glaring at Attorney General John Mitchell as he stood on the roof of the Justice Department, puffing his ever-present pipe and pretending to ignore the thousands of screaming, chanting masses in the street. The WikiPedia describes May 3, 1971, as one of the most disruptive actions of the Vietnam War era. The threat caused by the May Day Protests forced the Nixon
[Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
http://www.alternet.org/story/33896/ Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet By Don Hazen, AlterNet. Posted March 23, 2006. We need to resurrect the good '60s -- a time when acting, despite being messy and imperfect, made a lot of good things happen. Photo courtesy of David Fenton, from his book Shots, published by Ten Speed Press. Late into Dana Spiotta's brilliant new novel, Eat the Document, the protagonist, a woman who has lived underground for years, hiding from the consequences of a 1960s political protest gone badly awry, flashes back to the moment of choice: The question is, do we want to leave action to the brutes of the world? There are some inherent problems built into acting. It lacks perfection. But I believe we must fight back, or we will feel shame all our lives. We, the privileged, are more obligated. It is a moral duty to do something, however imperfect. If we don't do something, all our lives we will feel regret. Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the '60s (actually the period from '67 to '73) -- that political era so filled with possibility, so much a part of the blood and souls of millions of aging baby boomers like myself. The period was profoundly effective in the changes it provoked, yet is so persistently pilloried for its exaggerated excesses. One reason I find myself looking back is the pervasive feeling of political impotence so many of us feel at this moment in history, and our seeming inability to act -- to be noticed, to make a difference. There are some present-day chilling parallels to the repression of the Nixon era -- and of course many differences -- but there is a feeling in the air that smells like the '60s, that sends paranoid vibes through the body politic. The events taking place -- warrantless wiretapping, political corruption, torture, the war in Iraq with its disgusting profiteering while tens of thousands of people die -- demand a response equal to the situation, Yet we sit without a clear path showing us our step. A short time ago, in a funding appeal to the AlterNet community, I wrote: I haven't felt this angry, frightened or radical in a long time. We can no longer just do what we have been doing. In my several decades working in politics and media, the present feels dire. Those were my emotions; however, I didn't offer an action plan. The best I could do was ask for support so AlterNet could continue being a thorn in the side of the Bush administration. Important, but not sufficient. In the first draft of my appeal letter, I had also written: Not since John Mitchell was attorney general and a paranoid, anti-Semitic Richard Nixon at the helm, have we been under an assault close to what we have today. And we don't have a Watergate to get Bush out of office. My editor suggested I take those sentences out -- No need to go back to the past, and younger readers probably won't relate to this piece of history, she said. So I did. But my memory of that time is still so powerful, because many of us did act -- sometimes wildly, sometimes irresponsibly -- and we couldn't be ignored. And who can say that the Bush administration isn't shockingly irresponsible every day? I remember so clearly the May Day 1971 protests in Washington, D.C., glaring at Attorney General John Mitchell as he stood on the roof of the Justice Department, puffing his ever-present pipe and pretending to ignore the thousands of screaming, chanting masses in the street. The WikiPedia describes May 3, 1971, as one of the most disruptive actions of the Vietnam War era. The threat caused by the May Day Protests forced the Nixon administration to create a virtual state of siege in the nation's capital. Thousands of federal and National Guard troops, along with local police, suppressed the disorder, and by the time it was over several days later, over 10,000 would be arrested. It would be the largest mass arrest in U.S. history. That's not a typo: More than 10,000 people were arrested, jammed into jails that resembled crowded elevators and bused out to RFK Stadium. It was crazy, anarchistic and perhaps politically naive, but it was action. It made an impression. We were noticed. And it was exhilarating to bond with so many in a cause that felt so just. Critics may suggest that the protest made things worse, that it played into the hands of the Republicans. But I don't think so. Resistance is important. (There is a parallel today, with some critics charging that talk of impeaching Bush and Sen. Russ Feingold's motion to censure are also counterproductive.) The '60s era was a profoundly energetic mix of culture and politics. That decade has been distorted, caricatured and turned into a black-and-white cartoon -- when not appropriated to sell cars with Jimmy Hendrix music and pricey clothing like the Miss Sixty line. It is time to resurrect the good '60s and help many people understand much of what has been hidden. It was an
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
From Keith Addison: http://www.alternet.org/story/33896/ Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet By Don Hazen, AlterNet. Posted March 23, 2006. skip to quote from Hazen's article Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the '60s (actually the period from '67 to '73) -- that political era so filled with possibility, so much a part of the blood and souls of millions of aging baby boomers like myself. The period was profoundly effective in the changes it provoked, yet is so persistently pilloried for its exaggerated excesses. This brings back a wave of nostalgia for me. I am 66 years old and from the so-called silent generation that preceded the baby boomers, but in 1972 this Oklahoman found himself campaigning for George McGovern on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. McGovern lost to Nixon after which I was in a peaceful march on Washington with about 200,000 people coming in buses from up and down the East Coast on January 20, 1973, the day of Nixon's second inaugural. Our march was a counter-event to the Nixon inauguration. We were civil and at the Washington Monument we heard dignified speeches from Senator Philip Hart, Rep. Bella Abzug, songs and speaking from Pete Seeger, etc. But in a typical 60's way, our day was cut short when Washington police on horseback scarily rode at fast gait though our group - breaking it up - in an overreaction to a few extremists, not with our group, burning some of the flags that surround the Washington Monument. -- Jack ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet
From Keith Addison: http://www.alternet.org/story/33896/ Bring the Sixties Out of the Closet By Don Hazen, AlterNet. Posted March 23, 2006. skip to quote from Hazen's article Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the '60s (actually the period from '67 to '73) -- that political era so filled with possibility, so much a part of the blood and souls of millions of aging baby boomers like myself. The period was profoundly effective in the changes it provoked, yet is so persistently pilloried for its exaggerated excesses. This brings back a wave of nostalgia for me. And for me Jack. I wasn't in the US, but I was in quite a lot of other interesting places. It was a global phenomenon, the first Global Village maybe. I think it could only have started in the US though, no US no Sixties. Not just nostalgia though because it never really ended, or at least not for me. I must say I agree with Don Hazen. Several people have been making similar sorts of noises round here recently. It was messy enough, as Hazen says, gosh. But how could it not have been? As he says it was profoundly effective in the changes it provoked, I'm sure that's right, despite the common fallacy that it failed. It didn't die either. Hazen says it should come out of the closet, not out of its coffin. I think what it was short of was the Internet, and a lot of those people are still around, they didn't stop, and now they use the Internet too. I am 66 years old and from the so-called silent generation that preceded the baby boomers, but in 1972 this Oklahoman found himself campaigning for George McGovern on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. McGovern lost to Nixon after which I was in a peaceful march on Washington with about 200,000 people coming in buses from up and down the East Coast on January 20, 1973, the day of Nixon's second inaugural. Our march was a counter-event to the Nixon inauguration. We were civil and at the Washington Monument we heard dignified speeches from Senator Philip Hart, Rep. Bella Abzug, songs and speaking from Pete Seeger, etc. But in a typical 60's way, our day was cut short when Washington police on horseback scarily rode at fast gait though our group - breaking it up - in an overreaction to a few extremists, not with our group, burning some of the flags that surround the Washington Monument. -- Jack Nice, Jack! Hazen quotes the Sixties fugitive saying If we don't do something, all our lives we will feel regret. No regrets! All best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
