Re: [Biofuel] Churchill didn't say it.........
Hi Bob Hi all, There I was, sipping nectar in paradise, minding my own business, wondering at the passing parade and thinking good of all mankind when suddenly - out of the blue, mind you, But it's the best way! :-) not in response to any dastardly deed of mine - Far be it from me wantonly to bemire your nectar, but it wasn't just wanton, what with your substituting Churchill the Great for Churchill the Manipulator like that, I mean it went and woke me up, downright rude awakening I thought, here I was slumbering away peacefully as usual, so I thought I'd tumble you out of your hammock. I was ambushed by Keith's acutely accurate pen; a reminder that we are indeed mortal and that our idols without exception, have feet of clay. Right, so much for idols, that's just what I was saying. Trouble is they're treacherous, don't trust idols, especially not dead ones! Or don't have any idols in the first place. A message for our times? LOL! What a freak show, Barnum would have loved it. Which particular freak show did you think I meant? Anyway, now we have two versions of the hero of Omdurman, with and without Maxim guns and Egyptians to the rescue. I think I'll stick with the Maxim guns version. Best Keith Vide the following mire flung at Winston. (Snip) Churchill though... Very embedded journalist he was during the Boer War and previously. How about this awkward little gem? Churchill is the very type of a corrupt journalist. There is not a worse prostitute in politics. He himself has written that it's unimaginable what can be done in war with the help of lies. - Adolf Hitler, to General Erwin Rommel, 1942. A message for our times? LOL! What a freak show, Barnum would have loved it. With no intention of starting World War Three may I venture some comment. Firstly, in a remarkable number of battles, Winston was certainly deeply imbedded , both a combatant and a journo. Not for him the typewriter in the safe hotel or the regurgitation of Army PR as holy writ. In Afghanistan in the late 1880s he took command of a company of the Thirtyfirst Punjab Infantry during an action in the field when all the senior officers were killed. He knew only two words in Punjabi: maro (kill) and chalo (get on), two which he added an English word - Tallyho - and led the sepoys on his grey pony in a rout of the enemy. In the Sudan two years later talked his way into a field commission as a Lieutenant with the 21st Lancers and took part with distinction in Britain's last great cavalry charge. His dispatches were so evenhanded (on that occasion he described his Arab foes: As brave men as ever walked the earth.) that he earned Kitchener's (head of the imperial forces of those days) undying enmity. On escaping from a Boer prison during the South African War - and defying Kitchener's edict that no war correspondent could be at the front - he joined the South African Light Horse and played a major role during the appalling slaughter in the British defeat at Spion Kop, crawling around the battlefield from trench to trench, stiffening the courage of the lower ranks, arranging for rescue of wounded and minimising further casualties (Manchester, The Last Lion, Vol.1) In short, he was a gung-ho Tory product of his time, doing what his patrician and public school upbringing had trained him to do. Fast forward to the second year of WW2 when the Brits had a straight choice: Hitler or Churchill, fascist or tory (Republican, if you will): one was totalitarian, the other a democrat. (to paraphrase Winston himself: Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the others. In the WW2 stoush between fascism and democracy people didn't have time for the politically correct nitpicking we relish in our generation - in fact they bought us the time we use for our current navel-gazing. There was a job to do. They needed somebody to do it. The Brits chose Churchill (believe it or not, there was a rising groundswell of opinon among the upper classes that Britain should do an insider deal with Hitler). It took Churchill five days to root out the opinion-formers, face them down and get the majority of Brits singing from the same hymnbook. Then he went on public radio and told the average British yobbo that he promised him nothing but blood and toil, sweat and tears. He didn't mince words when it came to stiffening backbone. A year or so later the Americans were confronted with disaster in the Pacific. They too had their naysayers but they also had a patrician in the White House, Roosevelt a democrat who chose two other patricians, army brats Eisenhower and McArthur, to do the job. Save me the agonizing about the inferior/superior qualities of civilisation exhibited by respective fighting forces throughout the ages. For every anti-Nazi quote I'm sure I could find a dozen in favour of Hitler and his minions, ditto for the Empire of the Rising Sun. In short we are
Re: [Biofuel] Churchill didn't say it.........
I'm sure that at least part of his training helped develop a brilliant military mind. I'm not sure many people in the UK who remember WW2 will agree with his having a "brilliant military mind". Chasing tribesmen on horseback was about his mark. The original French landings were a fiasco and we got our arses kicked, we started terror bombing civilians and surprise surprise Germany did it back to us. After the war ended Churchill ordered home all the Poles and Russians that had foughtfor us knowing what was going to happen to them.He was not liked and was removed from power at the first post war elections. Chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Churchill didn't say it.........
Thanks Chris.I stand corrected.MikeChris lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sure that at least part of his training helped develop a brilliant military mind. I'm not sure many people in the UK who remember WW2 will agree with his having a "brilliant military mind". Chasing tribesmen on horseback was about his mark. The original French landings were a fiasco and we got our arses kicked, we started terror bombing civilians and surprise surprise Germany did it back to us. After the war ended Churchill ordered home all the Poles and Russians that had foughtfor us knowing what was going to happen to them.He was not liked and was removed from power at the first post war elections. Chris___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Churchill
was decidedly a mixed bag. Interestingly (I think) his reputation is better here in the US than in GB. I don't think most people know about his unreconstructed racism. He once stomped out a of a movie because it had black actors in in. I don't like Blackamoors! But early in his career he sponsored some very progressive legislation. And in the long view, he was right about one thing: The danger posed by Hitler. And just to stir the pot: Zionism versus Bolshevism. A Struggle for the Soul of the Jewish People By the *Rt. Hon. Winston S. Churchill.* SOME people like Jews and some do not; but no thoughtful man can doubt the fact that they are beyond all question the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has ever appeared in the world. And it may well be that this same astounding race may at the present time be in the actual process of producing another system of morals and philosophy, as malevolent as Christianity was benevolent, which, if not arrested would shatter irretrievably all that Christianity has rendered possible. It would almost seem as if the gospel of Christ and the gospel of Antichrist were destined to originate among the same people; and that this mystic and mysterious race had been chosen for the supreme manifestations, both of the divine and the diabolical. The National Russian Jews, in spite of the disabilities under which they have suffered, have managed to play an honourable and successful part in the national life even of Russia. As bankers and industrialists they have strenuously promoted the development of Russia's economic resources, and they were foremost in the creation of those remarkable organisations, the Russian Cooperative Societies. In politics their support has been given, for the most part, to liberal and progressive movements, and they have been among the staunchest upholders of friendship with France and Great Britain. *International Jews.* In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish effort rise the schemes of the International Jews. The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus- Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs. Webster, has so ably shown, a definitely recognisable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire. *Terrorist Jews.* There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and an the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution: by these international and for the most part atheistical Jews. It is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherin, a pure Russian, is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunacharski cannot be compared with the power of Trotsky, or of Zinovieff, the Dictator of the Red Citadel (Petrograd), or of Krassin or Radek -- all Jews. In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more astonishing. And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses. The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in the brief period of terror during which Bela Kun ruled in Hungary. The same phenomenon has been presented in Germany (especially in Bavaria), so far as this madness has been allowed to prey upon the temporary prostration of the German people. Although in all these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part
Re: [Biofuel] Churchill didn't say it.........
Thankyou Bob, you're right, as usual. Though Barnum also had no need to fool all the people all of the time, any more than politicians or PR men do: There's a sucker born every minute was enough for Barnum. I think Churchill also repeated the fools quote though. Well done Keith! Oh - I'm not an admirer. ...neither am I. I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes. -Winston Churchill Did he say that too? I knew he wanted to gas the Germans. It may be weeks or even months before I shall ask you to drench Germany with poison gas, and if we do it, let us do it 100 per cent. I want the matter studied in cold blood by sensible people. - Winston Churchill, in a secret war memorandum, 1944. Maybe he thought they were an uncivilized tribe. He seems to have thought Indians were an uncivilized tribe too, though AFAIK he didn't want to gas them, he just wouldn't free them, he reckoned they weren't capable of looking after themselves, White Man's Burden and so on. His refusal to free India helped lose him the post-war election, and he loathed Gandhi. It is alarming and also nauseating to see Mr. Gandhi, a seditious middle temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the east, striding half-naked up the steps of the vice-regal palace, while he is still organizing and conducting a defiant campaign of civil disobedience, to parley on equal terms with the representative of the king-emperor. - Winston Churchill, 1930 Well, he also called Britain's striking workers the enemy, also an uncivilized tribe, though he didn't gas them either. Gandhi left a far greater legacy than Churchill did, IMHO, unless you want to credit Churchill with winning World War 2 maybe. Other uncivilized tribes Churchill didn't gas: In 1937, Winston Churchill said of the Palestinians, I quote, 'I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.' (Come September, Arundhati Roy) http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15ItemID=2404 Churchill was an arch-colonialist and a gung-ho soldier of empire, his use-by date is long past. His first claim to fame was after he fought as a soldier in three colonial wars, including the Sudan campaign of 1898, where he took part in the British Army's last cavalry charge, at Omdurman, most heroic. Or so the myth has it. Only... 1898 General Sir Herbert Kitchener's 25,000-man Anglo-Egyptian army slaughtered a huge Mahdist dervish army at Omdurman in Sudan today. At least 10,000 dervish warriors were killed. They fought with great bravery but were simply mown down by Kitchener's Maxim machine guns. Kitchener lost 500 men. Thus ends 14 years of dervish rule after the Mahdi, Muhammad Ahmad, massacred General Charles Gordon and his entire garrison at Khartoum in 1885. The Mahdi died soon afterwards, but the fierce dervish armies continued in power. Even with his superior firepower, Kitchener nearly lost the day through a tactical error, exposing his rear during an ill-advised counter-attack. Egyptian troops fought off the dervish thrust which quickly followed. (On This Day) Nothing heroic about Maxim guns, and even with the guns the Egyptians had to save them. (I'm not a Kitchener fan either.) The colonial British did quite a lot of imposing democracy by means of Maxim guns. This next bit sent half of Britain into denial at the time: Churchill's ghost voice - 1990 US speech researchers say they have proof that three of Winston Churchill's most famous wartime speeches were recorded by an actor. The promise to the nation of nothing but blood, toil, tears and sweat, the Dunkirk rallying call We shall fight on the beaches, in the fields, in the streets and in the hills, and the finest hour speech predicting the Battle of Britain are all someone else's voice. Churchill made the speeches himself in parliament, but the famous words broadcast to the public and sent to the US to rally war support were recorded in the BBC studios. Actor Norman Shelley long ago claimed he had done the job because Churchill was too busy. Recently a BBC archivist confirmed that Shelley recorded the Dunkirk speech. Researchers at Sensimetrics in Cambridge, Massachusetts, tested Churchill's speeches with a computerised system they developed for verifying tapes presented as evidence in court. The computer produces a distinct contour map of individual speech configurations - a voice fingerprint. The contours of the three speeches in question are quite different to Churchill's, they said today. (On This Day)
Re: [Biofuel] Churchill didn't say it.........
Keith,Thank you for the history lesson. I mean that sincerely.Churchill's statement, "I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes." has a lot to say (IMO). Besides the obvious, he uses a label to legitimize his position and portray a group of human beings as something less than human or at least, less human. Astrategy used by other, less popular heads of State. The term "uncivilized tribe" also implies that Churchillbelieved that Britain was more civilized - A debate which could not have begun unless he completely denied the history of his own country (which youaccurately pointed out), especially the monarchy (Henry VIII rings a bell).Churchill: "I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America..." I just lookedin my phone book andyep, something really bad happened. How bad do you think things had to be in order for him to admit to a "great wrong". Apparently, genocide didn'tcount.Keith: "Nothing heroic about Maxim guns" Nope. Nothing humane either [understatement]. The 0.50-inch caliber Gatling Gun (invented in 1862), was invented by a doctor who believed that it would make warfare so terrible as to discourage future wars (or so the story goes).Someone told you once that"Americans are great, you can say anything you like - just don't knock Superman.".By enlarge, the waywhite Anglo-Saxon Americans viewother cultures isnot so ambiguous (unless you are a white Anglo-Saxon American). If you are discussing this in the US, expect to be approached by at least one confused and angry citizen and asked why Europe (for example) is so ungrateful and upset with "us". I focus on white Anglo-Saxon, Americans because (IMHO) these are the people who makes up most the ruling class in my country and as a result, also control policies, politics, propaganda and even opinions. Maybe it's just a coincidence?The number ofUS citizens (not naturalized immigrants and not the first generation born here) who speak more than one language is VERY small. To me,this is a clue.When I wasyoung, I was shipped off to Switzerland to spend Summers with my grandmother (it was as much to my parent's benefit as mine). When I returned, Iused to joke, pretending to see American tourists coming off the planes in Zurich andcommenting to each other about how many foreigners they see and asking why none of them are speaking English.I mention this because there are people living in the US who hear and identify the rhetoric of an empirefrom a young age. However, that's not enough. You also have toidentify it as wrong!Here at home, it's difficult to specifically articulatehow Americans see the rest of the world - mostly because the country is so damn big. It's also becauseof the different cultures which tend to express themselves differently from each other.This doesn't stop me from coming up with a local (New York City and surrounding area) _expression_ (with a sprinkle of humor and sarcasm) that describes"America's" position when anationother than ours decides to do something"unilaterally":"OH NO YOU DIDN'T!"No comma after "NO" to give you a hint aboutannunciation.Inflection: Say it monotone except for the first syllable in "DIDN'T" where it rises quickly and returns before the word ends. Say it with Authority!Mike Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "Thankyou Bob, you're right, as usual. Though Barnum also had no needto fool all the people all of the time, any more than politicians orPR men do: "There's a sucker born every minute" was enough forBarnum. I think Churchill also repeated the fools quote though."Well done Keith!"Oh - I'm not an admirer."...neither am I."I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes."-Winston ChurchillDid he say that too? I knew he wanted to gas the Germans."It may be weeks or even months before I shall ask you to drench Germany with poison gas, and if we do it, let us do it 100 per cent. I want the matter studied in cold blood by sensible people." - Winston Churchill, in a secret war memorandum, 1944.Maybe he thought they were an uncivilized tribe. He seems to have thought Indians were an uncivilized tribe too, though AFAIK he didn't want to gas them, he just wouldn't free them, he reckoned they weren't capable of looking after themselves, White Man's Burden and so on. His refusal to free India helped lose him the post-war election, and he loathed Gandhi."It is alarming and also nauseating to see Mr. Gandhi, a seditious middle temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the east, striding half-naked up the steps of the vice-regal palace, while he is still organizing and conducting a defiant campaign of civil disobedience, to parley on equal terms with the representative of the king-emperor." - Winston Churchill, 1930Well, he also called Britain's striking workers "the enemy", also an uncivilized tribe, though he didn't gas them either. Gandhi left a far
Re: [Biofuel] Churchill didn't say it.........
Hi Mike How about this? A contemporary American view, from a post to the Biofuel list, 12 May 2004: All I can add in our defense, is that much more good has come from our use of the land for the good of the world, than from the natives who inhabited it previously. Yes, you too have benefited from Jackson' s quest, so find a better argument about the poor, savage, barbaric, nomadic though culturally rich natives who fell easily to manifest destiny. Their children are being well taken care of, and now have the benefit of electricity, inexpensive housing, internal combustion, oh, and beer. :) http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg34442.html RE: [biofuel] US poll about Iraq war It's a long thread, difficult to follow in the archives but worth a try, very interesting. Needless to say he didn't get a lot of agreement, especially not from other Americans, along with just about everybody else. In fact he got thoroughly trashed, but he just couldn't see it - literally, anything contrary to his view got blind-eyed, and he couldn't see that either. That often happens (People of the Lie), especially in the Bush era it seems, but that doesn't make it any less bizarre. Anything that doesn't fit the cherished notion just bounces off. His final message: OK, enough already. I won't make the same mistake again and post MHOs on this list. How any of you can sit there and say you have not directly benefited from the colonization of the land that now makes up the USA is beyond me, but OK. Not enough already, I wouldn't let him post anything else until he replied to the responses he'd got from a whole bunch of list members instead of just ignoring them, but he was mystified, for him it just didn't happen. He's certainly not alone in his views, essentially the same as Churchill's and never mind the use-by date. Completely denying the history of his own country is apparently as easy now as it was in Churchill's day. Best Keith Keith, Thank you for the history lesson. I mean that sincerely. Churchill's statement, I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes. has a lot to say (IMO). Besides the obvious, he uses a label to legitimize his position and portray a group of human beings as something less than human or at least, less human. A strategy used by other, less popular heads of State. The term uncivilized tribe also implies that Churchill believed that Britain was more civilized - A debate which could not have begun unless he completely denied the history of his own country (which you accurately pointed out), especially the monarchy (Henry VIII rings a bell). Churchill: I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America... I just looked in my phone book and yep, something really bad happened. How bad do you think things had to be in order for him to admit to a great wrong. Apparently, genocide didn't count. Keith: Nothing heroic about Maxim guns Nope. Nothing humane either [understatement]. The 0.50-inch caliber Gatling Gun (invented in 1862), was invented by a doctor who believed that it would make warfare so terrible as to discourage future wars (or so the story goes). Someone told you once that Americans are great, you can say anything you like - just don't knock Superman.. By enlarge, the way white Anglo-Saxon Americans view other cultures is not so ambiguous (unless you are a white Anglo-Saxon American). If you are discussing this in the US, expect to be approached by at least one confused and angry citizen and asked why Europe (for example) is so ungrateful and upset with us. I focus on white Anglo-Saxon, Americans because (IMHO) these are the people who makes up most the ruling class in my country and as a result, also control policies, politics, propaganda and even opinions. Maybe it's just a coincidence? The number of US citizens (not naturalized immigrants and not the first generation born here) who speak more than one language is VERY small. To me, this is a clue. When I was young, I was shipped off to Switzerland to spend Summers with my grandmother (it was as much to my parent's benefit as mine). When I returned, I used to joke, pretending to see American tourists coming off the planes in Zurich and commenting to each other about how many foreigners they see and asking why none of them are speaking English. I mention this because there are people living in the US who hear and identify the rhetoric of an empire from a young age. However, that's not enough. You also have to identify it as wrong! Here at home, it's difficult to specifically articulate how Americans see the rest of the world - mostly because the country is so damn big. It's also because of the different cultures which tend to express themselves differently from each other. This doesn't stop me from coming up with a local (New York City and surrounding area) expression (with a sprinkle of
Re: [Biofuel] Churchill didn't say it.........
Hi all, There I was, sipping nectar in paradise, minding my own business, wondering at the passing parade and thinking good of all mankind when suddenly - out of the blue, mind you, not in response to any dastardly deed of mine - I was ambushed by Keith's acutely accurate pen;a reminder that we are indeed mortal and that our idols without exception, have feet of clay. Vide the following mireflung at Winston. (Snip)Churchill though... Very embedded journalist he was during the Boer War and previously. How about this awkward little gem? "Churchill is the very type of a corrupt journalist. There is not a worse prostitute in politics. He himself has written that it's unimaginable what can be done in war with the help of lies." - Adolf Hitler, to General Erwin Rommel, 1942. A message for our times? LOL! What a freak show, Barnum would have loved it.With no intention of starting World War Three mayI venture somecomment.Firstly, in a remarkable number of battles, Winston was certainly deeply imbedded , both a combatant and a journo. Not for him the typewriter in the safe hotel or the regurgitation of Army PR as holy writ.In Afghanistan in the late 1880s he took command of a company of the Thirtyfirst Punjab Infantry during an action in the field when all the seniorofficers werekilled. He knew onlytwo words in Punjabi:maro (kill) and chalo (get on), two which he added anEnglish word - Tallyho - and led the sepoyson his grey pony in a rout ofthe enemy. In the Sudan two years later talked his way into a field commission as a Lieutenant with the 21st Lancers and took part with distinction in Britain's last great cavalry charge. His dispatcheswere so evenhanded (on that occasion he described his Arab foes: "As brave men as ever walked the earth".) that he earned Kitchener's (head of the imperial forces of those days)undying enmity. Onescaping from a Boer prison during the South African War - and defying Kitchener's edict that no war correspondent could be at the front -hejoined the South African Light Horse and played a major role during the appalling slaughter inthe British defeat at Spion Kop,crawling around the battlefield from trench to trench,stiffening the courage of thelower ranks, arranging for rescue of wounded and minimising further casualties(Manchester, The Last Lion, Vol.1) In short, he was a gung-ho Tory product of his time, doing what his patrician and public school upbringing had trained him to do. Fast forward tothe second year ofWW2 when the Britshada straight choice: Hitler or Churchill, fascist or tory (Republican, if you will): one was totalitarian, the other a democrat. (to paraphrase Winston himself: "Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the others." In the WW2 stoush betweenfascism and democracy peopledidn't have time for the politically correct nitpicking we relish in our generation- in fact they bought us the time we usefor our current navel-gazing. There was ajob to do. They needed somebody to do it. The Brits chose Churchill (believe it or not, there was a rising groundswell of opinon among the upper classes that Britain should do an insider dealwith Hitler). It took Churchill five days to root out the opinion-formers, face them down and get the majority of Brits singingfrom the same hymnbook. Then he went on public radioand told the average British yobbo that he promised him nothing but blood and toil, sweat and tears. He didn't mince words when it came to stiffening backbone. A year or so later the Americans were confrontedwith disaster in the Pacific. They too had their naysayers but they also had apatrician in the White House,Roosevelta democrat who chose two otherpatricians, army brats Eisenhower andMcArthur, to do the job. Save me the agonizing about the inferior/superior qualities of civilisation exhibited byrespective fighting forces throughout the ages. For every anti-Nazi quote I'm sure I could find adozen in favour of Hitler and his minions, ditto for the Empire of the Rising Sun. In short we arecriticising very fallible human beings, worse still we are doing it out ofcontext. In war use a soldier for the job. In other situationslook for other qualifications. After the smoke has cleared we mislead ourselves if wemistake wartime propaganda for truth andsatire for opinion. Churchill was many things but most of all he was a master of the English language, anarch satirist,a political animal of the first order and a leader of men. As for colonialisation, it wasn't invented by the Brits nor practiced solely by aging white men in funny hats.It is, was and always will be a fact of life for the human race which got where it was through a few million yearsofdevil-take-the-hindmost survival of the fittest evolution.The Brits are clobbered for their imperial history which occurred in every other nation on earth (yes, even those nice peaceful Aboriginessaw nothing wrong with
Re: [Biofuel] Churchill didn't say it.........
Hi Bob, You said: "In short, he was a gung-ho Tory product of his time, doing what his patrician and public school upbringing had trained him to do." I'm not sure anyone is challenging that. I'm sure that at least part of his training helped develop a brilliant military mind. That doesn't conflict with any of the points made thus far either.You had a very detailed rebuttal that educated me about Churchill's life (among other things). I also noticed that you chose not to directly address the quotes already discussed and instead,whitewash them with wonderful humanitarian quotes from your own collection. Every head of State has made speeches which appeal to the masses and in fact Woodrow Wilson had arguably made a science out of it.See "Thought Control in Democratic Societies"by Noam Chomsky Friday December 13, 2002 at 10:35 PM http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/1550537.phpHere is an example:"It would be a wonderful thing for all of humanity if both peoples would renounce force against each other forever." - Adolf Hitler, 14th October 1933 It's the quotes that showedChurchill's true colors. Quotes that show him to have been loyal to his empire and indifferent to the suffering masses are bells that can't be "unrung".MikeBob Molloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, There I was, sipping nectar in paradise, minding my own business, wondering at the passing parade and thinking good of all mankind when suddenly - out of the blue, mind you, not in response to any dastardly deed of mine - I was ambushed by Keith's acutely accurate pen;a reminder that we are indeed mortal and that our idols without exception, have feet of clay. Vide the following mireflung at Winston.(Snip)Churchill though... Very embedded journalist he was during the Boer War and previously. How about this awkward little gem? "Churchill is the very type of a corrupt journalist. There is not a worse prostitute in politics. He himself has written that it's unimaginable what can be done in war with the help of lies." - Adolf Hitler, to General Erwin Rommel, 1942. A message for our times? LOL! What a freak show, Barnum would have loved it.With no intention of starting World War Three mayI venture somecomment.Firstly, in a remarkable number of battles, Winston was certainly deeply imbedded , both a combatant and a journo. Not for him the typewriter in the safe hotel or the regurgitation of Army PR as holy writ.In Afghanistan in the late 1880s he took command of a company of the Thirtyfirst Punjab Infantry during an action in the field when all the seniorofficers werekilled. He knew onlytwo words in Punjabi:maro (kill) and chalo (get on), two which he added anEnglish word - Tallyho - and led the sepoyson his grey pony in a rout ofthe enemy. In the Sudan two years later talked his way into a field commission as a Lieutenant with the 21st Lancers and took part with distinction in Britain's last great cavalry charge. His dispatcheswere so evenhanded (on that occasion he described his Arab foes: "As brave men as ever walked the earth".) that he earned Kitchener's (head of the imperial forces of those days)undying enmity. Onescaping from a Boer prison during the South African War - and defying Kitchener's edict that no war correspondent could be at the front -hejoined the South African Light Horse and played a major role during the appalling slaughter inthe British defeat at Spion Kop,crawling around the battlefield from trench to trench,stiffening the courage of thelower ranks, arranging for rescue of wounded and minimising further casualties(Manchester, The Last Lion, Vol.1) In short, he was a gung-ho Tory product of his time, doing what his patrician and public school upbringing had trained him to do. Fast forward tothe second year ofWW2 when the Britshada straight choice: Hitler or Churchill, fascist or tory (Republican, if you will): one was totalitarian, the other a democrat. (to paraphrase Winston himself: "Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the others." In the WW2 stoush betweenfascism and democracy peopledidn't have time for the politically correct nitpicking we relish in our generation- in fact they bought us the time we usefor our current navel-gazing. There was ajob to do. They needed somebody to do it. The Brits chose Churchill (believe it or not, there was a rising groundswell of opinon among the upper classes that Britain should do an insider dealwith Hitler). It took Churchill five days to root out the opinion-formers, face them down and get the majority of Brits singingfrom the same hymnbook. Then he went on public radioand told the average British yobbo that he promised him nothing but blood and toil, sweat and tears. He didn't mince words when it came to stiffening backbone. A year or so later the Americans were confrontedwith disaster in the Pacific. They too had their naysayers but they also had apatrician in the White House,Roosevelta
Re: [Biofuel] Churchill didn't say it.........
"Thankyou Bob, you're right, as usual. Though Barnum also had no need to fool all the people all of the time, any more than politicians or PR men do: "There's a sucker born every minute" was enough for Barnum. I think Churchill also repeated the fools quote though."Well done Keith!"Oh - I'm not an admirer." ...neither am I."I am strongly in favor of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes." -Winston ChurchillMikeKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello BobSnip "... what I tend to think of as Churchill's critical threshold level, when he mouthed that nonsense that you can fool some of the people all of the time and you can fool all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time -Though I am an admirer of the great manOh - I'm not an admirer.I have to put in my tuppence worthhere. Winston did not originate this quote. It comes from the greatestshowman of all time, a 19th century American called Phineas Taylor Barnum.His exact words were, in introducing a conjuring act sometime in themid-1800s, were: "You may fool all of the people some of the time; you caneven fool some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all thepeople all of the time".They were repeated in a political context by Abraham Lincoln in a speechgiven at Clinton on September 8, 1858.Regards,Bob.Thankyou Bob, you're right, as usual. Though Barnum also had no need to fool all the people all of the time, any more than politicians or PR men do: "There's a sucker born every minute" was enough for Barnum. I think Churchill also repeated the fools quote though.Damn, now who am I going to blame? Don't much feel like blaming Lincoln. Maybe Barnum, rather apt actually, for both politicians and PR men. What's the Greatest Show on Earth these days? FauxTV? Hm, it lacks Barnum's innocence (though he was far from innocent!).Churchill though... Very embedded journalist he was during the Boer War and previously. How about this awkward little gem? "Churchill is the very type of a corrupt journalist. There is not a worse prostitute in politics. He himself has written that it's unimaginable what can be done in war with the help of lies." - Adolf Hitler, to General Erwin Rommel, 1942. A message for our times? LOL! What a freak show, Barnum would have loved it.RegardsKeith___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Churchill didn't say it.........
Hello Bob Snip ... what I tend to think of as Churchill's critical threshold level, when he mouthed that nonsense that you can fool some of the people all of the time and you can fool all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time - Though I am an admirer of the great man Oh - I'm not an admirer. I have to put in my tuppence worth here. Winston did not originate this quote. It comes from the greatest showman of all time, a 19th century American called Phineas Taylor Barnum. His exact words were, in introducing a conjuring act sometime in the mid-1800s, were: You may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all the people all of the time. They were repeated in a political context by Abraham Lincoln in a speech given at Clinton on September 8, 1858. Regards, Bob. Thankyou Bob, you're right, as usual. Though Barnum also had no need to fool all the people all of the time, any more than politicians or PR men do: There's a sucker born every minute was enough for Barnum. I think Churchill also repeated the fools quote though. Damn, now who am I going to blame? Don't much feel like blaming Lincoln. Maybe Barnum, rather apt actually, for both politicians and PR men. What's the Greatest Show on Earth these days? FauxTV? Hm, it lacks Barnum's innocence (though he was far from innocent!). Churchill though... Very embedded journalist he was during the Boer War and previously. How about this awkward little gem? Churchill is the very type of a corrupt journalist. There is not a worse prostitute in politics. He himself has written that it's unimaginable what can be done in war with the help of lies. - Adolf Hitler, to General Erwin Rommel, 1942. A message for our times? LOL! What a freak show, Barnum would have loved it. Regards Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Churchill didn't say it.........
Snip ... what I tend to think of as Churchill's critical threshold level, when he mouthed that nonsense that you can fool some of the people all of the time and you can fool all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time - Though I am an admirer of the great man I have to put in my tuppence worth here. Winston did not originate this quote. It comes from the greatest showman of all time, a 19th century American called Phineas Taylor Barnum. His exact words were, in introducing a conjuring act sometime in the mid-1800s, were: You may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all the people all of the time. They were repeated in a political context by Abraham Lincoln in a speech given at Clinton on September 8, 1858. Regards, Bob. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Churchill didn't say it.........
gee, and all this time I thought Bob Dylan said it... :-) Bob Molloy wrote: Snip ... what I tend to think of as Churchill's critical threshold level, when he mouthed that nonsense that you can fool some of the people all of the time and you can fool all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time - Though I am an admirer of the great man I have to put in my tuppence worth here. Winston did not originate this quote. It comes from the greatest showman of all time, a 19th century American called Phineas Taylor Barnum. His exact words were, in introducing a conjuring act sometime in the mid-1800s, were: You may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all the people all of the time. They were repeated in a political context by Abraham Lincoln in a speech given at Clinton on September 8, 1858. Regards, Bob. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
