Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline
Hello Keith and all. I agree with you to some extent. Gasoline is a non-polar mix of 100:s and 100:s of hydrocarbons. In order to be corrosive there has to be a) metal ions (Lewis acids) producing a low pH and b) water or other polar compounds in the system. Anhydrous ethanol stays anhydrous reasonably long assuming that it is kept in a closed vessel, preferably with dehydration air filters. No I have not heard if Absolut is into juridical problems. But me, I prefer Lithuanian Gold vodka or Wyborowa, so it does not matter. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 10:44 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline Hij Jan Thanks for your reply. What I was asking about is the 4% (4.37%) water in the azeotrope mix that won't separate from the water by distillation. When 190-proof ethanol is blended with gasoline, the overall proportion of water is even lower. Zeolite will remove the last of the water, but it's another processing step and you have to buy it, and how long will the ethanol stay absolute? I thought that today's engines were built to resist rust and corrosion. Gasoline is also corrosive. There's also this, in a previous message: Biodiesel as an anti-wear and smog additive for gasoline fuel is very encouraging. - Franklin Del Rosario, January 2004, Biodiesel in gasoline engines - scroll down the page to Biodiesel in 4-stroke gasoline engines http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#gas It sounds like a good ethanol additive too. Has Absolut Vodka been sued yet for making false advertising claims? :-) Since it sure isn't absolute. Is it still just as good now that it's French? Somebody once gave me a bottle of 100-proof Absolut, wonderful stuff. All best Keith Hello all. I wish to comment that like this: Gasoline engines are sensitive to water, too sensitive to accept anything but a very small portion of water containing alcohol in the gasoline. Any alcohol blend in gasoline should originate from anhydrous alcohol.The fact that ethanol in water is corrosive does not make it better. Some of the ethanol will drop a hydrogen atom to the water and create acid and an ethoxide ion, both are aggressive. The diesel engines, as a contrast, can accept up to four per cents of water without even long-term problems. But then the engine in question has to be prepared for ethanol as fuel, of course. Best regards Jan W - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline Hi all Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment. What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with gasoline? Miscible or not? Thanks! Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline
Hij Jan Thanks for your reply. What I was asking about is the 4% (4.37%) water in the azeotrope mix that won't separate from the water by distillation. When 190-proof ethanol is blended with gasoline, the overall proportion of water is even lower. Zeolite will remove the last of the water, but it's another processing step and you have to buy it, and how long will the ethanol stay absolute? I thought that today's engines were built to resist rust and corrosion. Gasoline is also corrosive. There's also this, in a previous message: Biodiesel as an anti-wear and smog additive for gasoline fuel is very encouraging. - Franklin Del Rosario, January 2004, Biodiesel in gasoline engines - scroll down the page to Biodiesel in 4-stroke gasoline engines http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#gas It sounds like a good ethanol additive too. Has Absolut Vodka been sued yet for making false advertising claims? :-) Since it sure isn't absolute. Is it still just as good now that it's French? Somebody once gave me a bottle of 100-proof Absolut, wonderful stuff. All best Keith Hello all. I wish to comment that like this: Gasoline engines are sensitive to water, too sensitive to accept anything but a very small portion of water containing alcohol in the gasoline. Any alcohol blend in gasoline should originate from anhydrous alcohol.The fact that ethanol in water is corrosive does not make it better. Some of the ethanol will drop a hydrogen atom to the water and create acid and an ethoxide ion, both are aggressive. The diesel engines, as a contrast, can accept up to four per cents of water without even long-term problems. But then the engine in question has to be prepared for ethanol as fuel, of course. Best regards Jan W - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline Hi all Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment. What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with gasoline? Miscible or not? Thanks! Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline
Hi all Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment. What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with gasoline? Miscible or not? Thanks! Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline
Hi Keith pp356,357: Blending There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline, alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending on temperature and on water and alcohol content. [...] ... at about 68°F, alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline down to about minus 22°F! ... A reference is given, AC Castro, CH Koster, and EK Franleck, Flexible Ethanol Otto Engine Management System 942400 (Warrendale, PA: Society of Automotive Engineers International, 1994) Regards Dawie Coetzee From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2011, 18:59 Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline Hi all Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment. What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with gasoline? Miscible or not? Thanks! Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20110828/62e787c3/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline
Thankyou Dawie! Perfect, problem solved. Thanks so much for taking the trouble. All best to you Keith Hi Keith pp356,357: Blending There is a myth that anything less than 200-proof alcohol will separate from gasoline due to the small amount of water in the alcohol. Gasoline, alcohol, and water are miscible (stay dissolved in one another), depending on temperature and on water and alcohol content. [...] ... at about 68°F, alcohol with as much as 45% water will mix with gasoline and not separate. At 4% water, alcohol will form a stable mix with gasoline down to about minus 22°F! ... A reference is given, AC Castro, CH Koster, and EK Franleck, Flexible Ethanol Otto Engine Management System 942400 (Warrendale, PA: Society of Automotive Engineers International, 1994) Regards Dawie Coetzee From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, 28 August 2011, 18:59 Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline Hi all Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment. What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with gasoline? Miscible or not? Thanks! Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline
Hello all. I wish to comment that like this: Gasoline engines are sensitive to water, too sensitive to accept anything but a very small portion of water containing alcohol in the gasoline. Any alcohol blend in gasoline should originate from anhydrous alcohol.The fact that ethanol in water is corrosive does not make it better. Some of the ethanol will drop a hydrogen atom to the water and create acid and an ethoxide ion, both are aggressive. The diesel engines, as a contrast, can accept up to four per cents of water without even long-term problems. But then the engine in question has to be prepared for ethanol as fuel, of course. Best regards Jan W - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol and gasoline Hi all Would someone who has David Blume's Alcohol Can Be a Gas! please look up something for me? I can't get at my copy at the moment. What does Mr Blume say about blending 95% ethanol (190-proof) with gasoline? Miscible or not? Thanks! Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
fuel evaluation - was Re: [biofuel] ethanol to gasoline relationship
Just the basics: Ethanol Transportation for the 21st century 14 Mar 02 http://www.ott.doe.gov/pdfs/jtb_ethanol.pdf PDF Impart says: Although E95 is a good fuel for buses and trucks, it cannot be used in standard diesel engines. So tests are under way to determine whether a new ethanol-based fuel can power such heavy-duty vehicles without extensive engine modifications. Called oxygenated diesel or E-diesel (E stands for ethanol), the new fuel contains 15% ethanol, 80% diesel fuel, and 5% of an additive that helps the components stay mixed together. This blend promises to significantly reduce exhaust emissions from heavyduty vehicles while helping to lessen U.S. dependence on foreign oil. I'm siding with Keith regarding maintenance and repair. Continued rambling on my part: E-95** contains 95 percent Ethanol and 5 percent gasoline. E-diesel -or- oxygenated diesel contains 15 percent Ethanol, 80 percent petro diesel and 5 percent of an (mystery) additive. Question: if sulfur is removed from petro diesel whats the lubricant. Biodiesel or The Ethanol is used to encourage complete combustion. Biodiesel as well as Ethanol both have, so I understand, the hydroxyl (öOH) group that assists in complete combustion. [2. Ethyl Alcohol: What is it? http://chemcases.com/alcohol/alc-02.htm] Gasoline and petro diesel do not so to encourage a cleaner burning petro fuel MTBE or a hydroxyl group is added. Living in a cold climate say part of the year the Freezing Point of fuel is worth consideration. Properties of Fuels including: gasoline, no.2 diesel fuel, methanol, ethanol, MTBE, propane, CNG, hydrogen. http://www.e85fuel.com/information/fuelproperties.htm For additional reference to footnotes please view http://www.afdc.doe.gov/pdfs/fueltable.pdf PDF ** Now the disappointment - looking back at ADM's E-95 diesel TRUKLINK FUELED ON ETHANOL 12/1/97 Imagine a 55,000-pound tractor-trailer fueled with corn! http://www.truklink.com/articles/te/article0071.html May I add that this report used 95 percent Ethanol and 5 percent gasoline = E-95 and a lubricant (0.6%) called Lubrizol. They also used 2-cycle diesel engines. 2-cycle engines to my knowledge are inherently less efficient then 4-cycle engines. Now the discussion may lead to the Btu value comparing petro diesel to E-95. This could also differentiate petro diesel and biodiesel which has the hydroxyl (öOH) group and no sulfur but acts as a lubricant so I understand. One last thought: if oil is extracted from oilseed could the remaining biomass provide ethanol and the balance go to feed or methane digestion or producer gas with the ash or sludge as fertilizer P.S. If I add say 5 percent oil (BD?) to gasoline will the automobile computer function properly or foul my spark plugs or possible generate carbon build up (although condensation or hydroxyls should prevent that I'd guess). The lube might elongate engine life cycle but could decrease power unless a hotter spark plug would help. I don't know. I imagine id be taking the risk at my own expense or profit from it with more discussion. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re:[biofuel] ethanol to gasoline relationship
I'm still questioning it all Motie ;-) Your Vehicle - Ethanol performs! Compatibility and warranty protection If the ethanol concentration increases well above 10%, for example to 20% ethanol, or even neat (near 100%) ethanol as is used in Brazil, a higher engine compression ratio is necessary to take advantage of the ethanol's higher octane rating (compared to normal gasoline). Higher compression ratios can, in turn, mean greater pressure on engine bearings, so engines must be designed for this. Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) more http://www.ethanol-crfa.ca/vehicle.htm Just the basics: Ethanol Transportation for the 21st century 14 Mar 02 http://www.ott.doe.gov/pdfs/jtb_ethanol.pdf PDF Impart says: Although E95 is a good fuel for buses and trucks, it cannot be used in standard diesel engines. So tests are under way to determine whether a new ethanol-based fuel can power such heavy-duty vehicles without extensive engine modifications. Called oxygenated diesel or E-diesel (E stands for ethanol), the new fuel contains 15% ethanol, 80% diesel fuel, and 5% of an additive that helps the components stay mixed together. This blend promises to significantly reduce exhaust emissions from heavyduty vehicles while helping to lessen U.S. dependence on foreign oil. Information Sheets and Fact Sheets with various listing such as - Henry Ford and Fuel Ethanol and a Biodiesel category. Canadian Renewable Fuels Association (CRFA) http://www.greenfuels.org/ethindex.html Ethanol Vehicles Operational Performance If compression ratio is optimized for higher octane rating, ethanol has approximately 80% or more of the energy density of gasoline. http://www.afdc.doe.gov/afv/ethanol.html Ethanol Performs (excerpt) With a higher octane, increased compression ratios and more advanced timing curves can be used to increase performance. The increased compression ratio leads to greater thermal efficiency, which can increase gas mileage. A properly tuned E85 can get comparable gas mileage to its gasoline counterpart. http://www.kettering.edu/~technews/79-5/206.htm Fuel Chemistry A brief outline and easy to understand explanation: - Molecular Size - Incomplete Combustion - Oxygen Content - Carbon Content - Avoiding Carbon Dioxide Emissions Entirely http://www.altfuels.org/fuelchem.html Fuels and Society: The Chemistry: Automotive fuels derived from petroleum propel our cars by converting the energy of combustion to heat and work. The challenge for an efficient, powerful engine is to maximize the work available. The second law of thermodynamics teaches this can be done by making engines with a high compression ratio. But problems of uneven fuel combustion and knocking must be overcome through fuel reformulation or by finding an appropriate additive. The History: Automotive designers and engineers had three choices for reformulating and improving fuels. Copyright 2001, Laurence I. Peterson and Matthew E. Hermes College of Science and Mathematics Kennesaw State University 1000 Chastain Rd. Kennesaw, GA 30114 http://chemcases.com/fuels/ Racing on Ethanol http://www.ethanol.org/racing/racing_on_ethanol.html Excerpts impart plus more: Test results show that, if run properly, ethanol can give racers added horsepower and torque. Pure ethanol has an octane of 115, which is about the same as methanol. Gasoline has an octane of anywhere between 85 and 95, with low-lead aviation fuel coming in at about 100 octane. Gasoline contains no oxygen, ethanol is 35% oxygen and methanol is 50% oxygen. Ethanol, like methanol, will burn cooler than gasoline, and will allow you to increase your compression ratio when using it to replace gasoline. Although this site speaks more towards racing fuel Methanol then Ethanol (correction welcomed) you will be able to see the advantages disadvantages. Alcohol Fuel Systems such as humidity, heating/cooling, torque, oil/alcohal mix, cold starting, choke, timing, temperature. http://www.theengineshop.com/protips1.shtml FACT or FALLACY? MYTH #1 ALUMINUM HEADS MAKE MORE POWER MYTH #3 SPLAYED FOUR-BOLT MAIN CAPS OTHER METALS MYTH #4 BIG MANIFOLDS AND BIG PORTS MAKE POWER http://www.theengineshop.com/protips2.shtml USA Rural Busniess - Cooperative Service Energy Related Loans - Grants - Cooperatives http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/rbs/energy.htm [includes] BioBased Products and BioEnergy http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/rbs/biomass/biomass.htm Now the disappointment - looking back at ADM's E-95 diesel TRUKLINK FUELED ON ETHANOL 12/1/97 Imagine a 55,000-pound tractor-trailer fueled with corn! http://www.truklink.com/articles/te/article0071.html ` Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM
[biofuel] Ethanol + Biodiesel = Gasoline?
Might there be a way to combine ethanol and biodiesel such that the result could be used in gasoline engines? Any thoughts? -Brian E. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
