Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
"Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list."Thank you. Thank you. What an honor it is to be chosen for this great, great award. I'd like to thank the academy for it's wonderful work and support. ...and of course this wouldn't be possible without a great cast and crew...oh...and of course Mom and Dad for making it all possible (it runs in the family).:-)- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. "Regular" people bore me.Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person...Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list.-MikeJason Katie wrote:Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity.- Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Oops.It's not dejavu. You read that one already....sorry.If I keep repeating my nonsense, I might actually become a politician.Agh!!_"Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list."Thank you. Thank you. What an honor it is to be chosen for this great, great award. I'd like to thank the academy for it's wonderful work and support. ...and of course this wouldn't be possible without a great cast and crew...oh...and of course Mom and Dad for making it all possible (it runs in the family).:-)___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhaps lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production? My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of distribution. Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources. I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on this point), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will you please explain further how gobbling up crop wastes is done at the expense of soil fertility maintenance? Please understand, I am in NO WAY trying to be argumentative. I really am profoundly concerned about our world situation today and how I can be on the helpful side of it all (knapsack and all???). I don't have that much time left on the planet, and I'd like to go down swinging. Thanks. Mike - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Hi Mike Hi...I'd like to hear the list's opinion about the process developed by Iogen to produce cellulosic ethanol. Goldman Sachs announced yesterday (May 1) an investment of $30million Canadian in the company. Royal Dutch/Shell, Petro-Canada, and the Canadian Gov't have also all partnered with or are supporting Iogen. The first article below, by Sam Jaffe, an editor with The Scientist magazine, discusses cellulosic ethanol as well as a fuel cell developed by Lanny Scmidt. The second link is to the Iogen website itself. Thanks. Mike http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0407.jaffe.html http://www.iogen.ca/ Here's some previous discussion: http://snipurl.com/pxs2 biofuel Search results for 'iogen' 94 matches Ethanol from cellulose http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose Maybe it'll get off the ground now, it's been around for years and nothing happens. Like all the other ethanol-from-cellulose projects. What bothers me about it, other than how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production anyway, is that cellulose is widely regarded as waste, but the soil that produced it might not think so
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Hey Weaver!!I like the crackpots and cranks on the list. Todd's writing keeps me entertained for hours. And you and Redler keep me spinning. To the point where I lose track of which mike is saying what.I too am the former neighborhood crank/mad scientist now the forward thinking nutjob who might save the world. We need more of me!!fOn 5/4/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now exceptfor diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers.I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BDgenerator running and use electric.I heat with wood.I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream ofvisitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote:Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosicethanol generally.This whole area is very new to me.Somehow I have beenblind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence uponoil as an energy source.All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control mylife really is.And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 overthere???Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay,but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources.This research hasled me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a worldview that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked.Justanother suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, comeback from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes intoaccount the full extent of my actions).This side of the edge, however,isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might trulypossess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply beginto wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toeback over the edge into dreamland again).Is this clear...or am I comingoff as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments.I'm still readingthrough all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe myquestions will be answered along the way.Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rationalbiofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhapslead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production?My immediate response to this has to do with a main point Ihave observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is notsomething me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty ofdistribution.Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources.I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on thispoint), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will youplease explain further how gobbling up crop wastes is done at the expense of soil fertility maintenance?Please understand, I am in NO WAY trying tobe argumentative.I really am profoundly concerned about our worldsituation today and how I can be on the helpful side of it all (knapsack and all???).I don't have that much time left on the planet, and I'd like to godown swinging.Thanks.Mike- Original Message -From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 1:17 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Hi MikeHi...I'd like to hear the list's opinion about the process developedby Iogen to produce cellulosic ethanol.Goldman Sachs announced yesterday (May 1) an investment of $30million Canadian in thecompany.Royal Dutch/Shell, Petro-Canada, and the Canadian Gov'thave also all partnered with or are supporting Iogen. The first article below, by Sam Jaffe, an editor with TheScientist magazine, discusses cellulosic ethanol as well as a fuelcell developed by Lanny Scmidt.The second link is to the Iogen website itself.Thanks.Mikehttp://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0407.jaffe.html http://www.iogen.ca/Here's some previous discussion:http://snipurl.com/pxs2biofuelSearch results for 'iogen' 94 matchesEthanol from cellulosehttp://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose Maybe it'll get off the ground now, it's been around for years andnothing happens. Like all the other ethanol-from-cellulose projects.What bothers me
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Mike Weaver for President!! Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun. J Mike Weaver wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. "Regular" people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Mike, You wrote: Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. Not to worry, you are right there with him. I often have to check to see which Mike I'm reading. For a while there I was fairly certain there really only was one Mike. I noticed that while Mike R. was away, we didn't hear from Mike W. Two of my favorite characters on the list. Never stay away long. Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Dear Thomas, Do not believe anything Weaver says. He makes things up. -Mike Thomas Kelly wrote: Mike, You wrote: Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. Not to worry, you are right there with him. I often have to check to see which Mike I'm reading. For a while there I was fairly certain there really only was one Mike. I noticed that while Mike R. was away, we didn't hear from Mike W. Two of my favorite characters on the list. Never stay away long. Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Thanks Jason and Kate. I suspected as much, so I carry on with my suspicions. Mike - Original Message - From: "Jason Katie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial-scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhaps lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production? My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of distribution. Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources. I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on this point), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will you please explain further how gobbling up crop wastes is done at the expense of soil fertility maintenance? Please understand, I am in NO WAY trying to be argumentative. I really am profoundly concerned about our world situation today and how I can be on the helpful side of it all (knapsack and all???). I don't have that much time left on the planet, and I'd like to go down swinging. Thanks. Mike - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
] Iogen - Post to List Hi Mike Hi...I'd like to hear the list's opinion about the process developed by Iogen to produce cellulosic ethanol. Goldman Sachs announced yesterday (May 1) an investment of $30million Canadian in the company. Royal Dutch/Shell, Petro-Canada, and the Canadian Gov't have also all partnered with or are supporting Iogen. The first article below, by Sam Jaffe, an editor with The Scientist magazine, discusses cellulosic ethanol as well as a fuel cell developed by Lanny Scmidt. The second link is to the Iogen website itself. Thanks. Mike http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0407.jaffe.html http://www.iogen.ca/ Here's some previous discussion: http://snipurl.com/pxs2 biofuel Search results for 'iogen' 94 matches Ethanol from cellulose http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose Maybe it'll get off the ground now, it's been around for years and nothing happens. Like all the other ethanol-from-cellulose projects. What bothers me about it, other than how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production anyway, is that cellulose is widely regarded as waste, but the soil that produced it might not think so. There's often plenty of cellulose about that isn't utilised and could/should be harvested, but if Iogen et al start gobbling up crop wastes at the expense of soil fertility maintenance then clean, green and sustainable biofuels won't be the result. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
"Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list."Thank you. Thank you. What an honor it is to be chosen for this great, great award. I'd like to thank the academy for it's wonderful work and support. ...and of course this wouldn't be possible without a great cast and crew...oh...and of course Mom and Dad for making it all possible (it runs in the family).:-) - RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. "Regular" people bore me.Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person...Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list.-MikeJason Katie wrote:Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity.- Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be???___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Hello Mike I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary adjunct to Schumacher's Small is beautiful - economics as if people mattered. An introduction: http://journeytoforever.org/at.html Appropriate technology Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as appropriate in rich countries. Best Keith Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial-scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhaps lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production? My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of distribution. Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources. I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on this point), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will you please explain further how gobbling up crop
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
There are too many Mikes around here. I'm familiar with Schumacher though it's been years since I read it. I'm working on a modified square foot gardening plan now. Other Mike: No. The immediate neighbors are MAD MAD MAD. They do not like: 1. 12 year old p/u truck 2. Trarped and stacked wood - quote it's ugly They also think freshly cut Oak stinks. 3. They don't like the wood smoke 4. They don't like my BD buddies coming by in 23 year old diesels 5. My garden is ugly You've ruined my view. 6. My lawn is not perfect - I refuse to put weedkiller on it. 7. I build stuff and make noise. 8. I have rain barrels 9. I move oil in big barrels But, there is a lot of interest in the groups close to my neighborhood - the local Democrats, parents at my kid's school, people who ask about the stickers on my VW, other wood heat nuts, and friends. I'm working on a BD coop. for my area. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary adjunct to Schumacher's Small is beautiful - economics as if people mattered. An introduction: http://journeytoforever.org/at.html Appropriate technology Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as appropriate in rich countries. Best Keith Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial-scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Dear Mikes, I'm on to you with wonderful Schumacher, what a delight. With your neighbours, what IS their problem. This would clearly be an unpleasant experience, first thing in the morning, when you step out to sm the flowers. Now, me, my rainbarrels are municipally supplied!!! The neighbourhood kids think it's so fun to come over and get wet! I don't really know how to be sunny about your neighbourly disparity, but humm, there must be some common ground somewhere. What do THEY like to do? Play crib? Further, I feel your presidential aspirations are entirely appropriate. Jesse On May 4, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: There are too many Mikes around here. I'm familiar with Schumacher though it's been years since I read it. I'm working on a modified square foot gardening plan now. Other Mike: No. The immediate neighbors are MAD MAD MAD. They do not like: 1. 12 year old p/u truck 2. Trarped and stacked wood - quote it's ugly They also think freshly cut Oak stinks. 3. They don't like the wood smoke 4. They don't like my BD buddies coming by in 23 year old diesels 5. My garden is ugly You've ruined my view. 6. My lawn is not perfect - I refuse to put weedkiller on it. 7. I build stuff and make noise. 8. I have rain barrels 9. I move oil in big barrels But, there is a lot of interest in the groups close to my neighborhood - the local Democrats, parents at my kid's school, people who ask about the stickers on my VW, other wood heat nuts, and friends. I'm working on a BD coop. for my area. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary adjunct to Schumacher's Small is beautiful - economics as if people mattered. An introduction: http://journeytoforever.org/at.html Appropriate technology Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as appropriate in rich countries. Best Keith Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial- scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
I just want to say that it's an honor, Sir, to share a list with you. Michael Redler wrote: Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. Thank you. Thank you. What an honor it is to be chosen for this great, great award. I'd like to thank the academy for it's wonderful work and support. ...and of course this wouldn't be possible without a great cast and crew...oh...and of course Mom and Dad for making it all possible (it runs in the family). :-) - Redler */Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. Regular people bore me. Better a smart nut than a dull normal person... Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list. -Mike Jason Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
We're a small bunch now mostly due to my time-constraints - I wanted to see if it is possible to live without petro. It is. But, I have a small house and am handy, and have friends that help. I would really like to get off the grid a la Zeke but haven't finished the work - I'm close. I think I could make 300 - 400 gallons a week and not really bother anyone. I don't now because I don't drive much and my car gets 50 mpg. I'm stuck in suburbia for 9 more years then I'm moving out to somewhere with land. I live in a small house in a sea of mansions and SUV's - but not by choice. MK DuPree wrote: Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial-scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhaps lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production? My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of distribution. Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources. I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
They like: BIG cars. Perfect lawns - CHEMLAWN SUVS Huge houses Vinyl siding Endless structured activities for the kids (Jeez, give them a rest once in a while) working until 8 pm every night to afford the above I tried all that: Monkey suit, real job, long hours big(er) house, big car (diesel Benz), it doesn't work for me. I'm happier doing what I do. That's why me and Keith are so rich. ;-) Another Mike Mark Manchester wrote: Dear Mikes, I'm on to you with wonderful Schumacher, what a delight. With your neighbours, what IS their problem. This would clearly be an unpleasant experience, first thing in the morning, when you step out to sm the flowers. Now, me, my rainbarrels are municipally supplied!!! The neighbourhood kids think it's so fun to come over and get wet! I don't really know how to be sunny about your neighbourly disparity, but humm, there must be some common ground somewhere. What do THEY like to do? Play crib? Further, I feel your presidential aspirations are entirely appropriate. Jesse On May 4, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: There are too many Mikes around here. I'm familiar with Schumacher though it's been years since I read it. I'm working on a modified square foot gardening plan now. Other Mike: No. The immediate neighbors are MAD MAD MAD. They do not like: 1. 12 year old p/u truck 2. Trarped and stacked wood - quote it's ugly They also think freshly cut Oak stinks. 3. They don't like the wood smoke 4. They don't like my BD buddies coming by in 23 year old diesels 5. My garden is ugly You've ruined my view. 6. My lawn is not perfect - I refuse to put weedkiller on it. 7. I build stuff and make noise. 8. I have rain barrels 9. I move oil in big barrels But, there is a lot of interest in the groups close to my neighborhood - the local Democrats, parents at my kid's school, people who ask about the stickers on my VW, other wood heat nuts, and friends. I'm working on a BD coop. for my area. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary adjunct to Schumacher's Small is beautiful - economics as if people mattered. An introduction: http://journeytoforever.org/at.html Appropriate technology Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as appropriate in rich countries. Best Keith Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial- scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Ack, chemlawn!! I see their trucks coming out here now that it's spring. To me, that's the worst possible marketing thing you could do, but I guess it works...There's also an add on the radio asking whether you'd prefer the yard with bird sounds, or the one with playing kids (getting cancer and endocrinological imbalances from playing in the chemlawn, presumably). Personally, I like the lawns that are natural meadows, grass and wildflowers and weeds, not mowed or watered and believe it or not, kids can still play in them. Although if I have to say I'd sort of like to try the perfect uniform lawn look if I was in the right neighborhood -- in bright purple astroturf just to annoy the neighbors while following the letter of the law... Z On 5/4/06, Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They like: BIG cars. Perfect lawns - CHEMLAWN SUVS Huge houses Vinyl siding Endless structured activities for the kids (Jeez, give them a rest once in a while) working until 8 pm every night to afford the above I tried all that: Monkey suit, real job, long hours big(er) house, big car (diesel Benz), it doesn't work for me. I'm happier doing what I do. That's why me and Keith are so rich. ;-) Another Mike Mark Manchester wrote: Dear Mikes, I'm on to you with wonderful Schumacher, what a delight. With your neighbours, what IS their problem. This would clearly be an unpleasant experience, first thing in the morning, when you step out to sm the flowers. Now, me, my rainbarrels are municipally supplied!!! The neighbourhood kids think it's so fun to come over and get wet! I don't really know how to be sunny about your neighbourly disparity, but humm, there must be some common ground somewhere. What do THEY like to do? Play crib? Further, I feel your presidential aspirations are entirely appropriate. Jesse On May 4, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: There are too many Mikes around here. I'm familiar with Schumacher though it's been years since I read it. I'm working on a modified square foot gardening plan now. Other Mike: No. The immediate neighbors are MAD MAD MAD. They do not like: 1. 12 year old p/u truck 2. Trarped and stacked wood - quote it's ugly They also think freshly cut Oak stinks. 3. They don't like the wood smoke 4. They don't like my BD buddies coming by in 23 year old diesels 5. My garden is ugly You've ruined my view. 6. My lawn is not perfect - I refuse to put weedkiller on it. 7. I build stuff and make noise. 8. I have rain barrels 9. I move oil in big barrels But, there is a lot of interest in the groups close to my neighborhood - the local Democrats, parents at my kid's school, people who ask about the stickers on my VW, other wood heat nuts, and friends. I'm working on a BD coop. for my area. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary adjunct to Schumacher's Small is beautiful - economics as if people mattered. An introduction: http://journeytoforever.org/at.html Appropriate technology Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as appropriate in rich countries. Best Keith Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial- scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
We have annoyed our neighbours repeatedly with musical evenings Perhaps this would only widen the gap for you? but it has been fun for us... Bring yer guitars and a songbook doesn't hurt, because it's difficult if we don't actally remember any WORDS to any songs, that is essential. Percussion instruments are handy, even if they are lentils to shake in a jar... Watermelon may be essential also, I'm not sure. Important to have a kids' activity, also, like maybe lots of coloured markers or crayons, and a mural of paper. Usually, in my experience, they sing. Jesse From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 16:33:17 -0400 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List They like: BIG cars. Perfect lawns - CHEMLAWN SUVS Huge houses Vinyl siding Endless structured activities for the kids (Jeez, give them a rest once in a while) working until 8 pm every night to afford the above I tried all that: Monkey suit, real job, long hours big(er) house, big car (diesel Benz), it doesn't work for me. I'm happier doing what I do. That's why me and Keith are so rich. ;-) Another Mike Mark Manchester wrote: Dear Mikes, I'm on to you with wonderful Schumacher, what a delight. With your neighbours, what IS their problem. This would clearly be an unpleasant experience, first thing in the morning, when you step out to sm the flowers. Now, me, my rainbarrels are municipally supplied!!! The neighbourhood kids think it's so fun to come over and get wet! I don't really know how to be sunny about your neighbourly disparity, but humm, there must be some common ground somewhere. What do THEY like to do? Play crib? Further, I feel your presidential aspirations are entirely appropriate. Jesse On May 4, 2006, at 2:52 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: There are too many Mikes around here. I'm familiar with Schumacher though it's been years since I read it. I'm working on a modified square foot gardening plan now. Other Mike: No. The immediate neighbors are MAD MAD MAD. They do not like: 1. 12 year old p/u truck 2. Trarped and stacked wood - quote it's ugly They also think freshly cut Oak stinks. 3. They don't like the wood smoke 4. They don't like my BD buddies coming by in 23 year old diesels 5. My garden is ugly You've ruined my view. 6. My lawn is not perfect - I refuse to put weedkiller on it. 7. I build stuff and make noise. 8. I have rain barrels 9. I move oil in big barrels But, there is a lot of interest in the groups close to my neighborhood - the local Democrats, parents at my kid's school, people who ask about the stickers on my VW, other wood heat nuts, and friends. I'm working on a BD coop. for my area. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike I think you need to learn something about the Appropriate Technology approach, essentially technology as if people mattered, the necessary adjunct to Schumacher's Small is beautiful - economics as if people mattered. An introduction: http://journeytoforever.org/at.html Appropriate technology Generally seen as something for poor countries, but at least as appropriate in rich countries. Best Keith Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial- scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
With some sort of per gallon fuel discount for gallons of good quality oil (WVO, SVO, crop mass, whatever) donated to the fuel production measure...it's crossed my mind a few times. Ryan From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 10:27:44 -0500 Mike...during your neigborhood conversion from neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD, are the neighbors changing? If so, how? One of my concerns in my post in response to Keith is that not everyone will have the ability/interest to set up their own BD plant, as well as have access to feedstock. It seems to me, since you are already set up with some kind of access to feedstock, you could be the new neighborhood gas pump. Don't you think??? Of course, once you, or someone, becomes this person, the community necessarily transforms your individual production into the need for an industrial-scale process. In fact, the existence of a community that demands the lifestyle provided by BD or any fuel to run our machinery that gives us this lifestyle must necessarily adopt industrial-scale processes. Don't you think?? Presently, I do. Consequently, I'm especially interested in learning about any size community that has developed/is developing industrial-scale processes (that) fit rational biofuels production, to use Keith's terms. Another Mike - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List FWIW - I have not bought ANY petro products for almost a year now except for diesel on one long trip and the least amount of NG as possible for cooking and showers. I hope to go to BD heating for water, or get my BD generator running and use electric. I heat with wood. I went from being the neighborhood crank to having a steady stream of visitors and questions about BD MK DuPree wrote: Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhaps lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production? My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of distribution. Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources. I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on this point), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will you please explain further how gobbling up crop wastes is done at the expense of soil fertility maintenance? Please
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Hi Keith...thanks so much for the links to info on Iogen and cellulosic ethanol generally. This whole area is very new to me. Somehow I have been blind for most of my 54 years to the extent that my lifestyle and general world view have been dependent upon and propped up by my dependence upon oil as an energy source. All of sudden I am seeing how out of my control my life really is. And to tell you and everyone the truth, I'm damned frightened, and angry, and depressed, and then...is that my .38 over there??? Somehow I have been able to keep the madness of this world at bay, but no more, all because of rising oil prices and my subsequently felt urgency to research and find alternative energy sources. This research has led me into the politics of the whole energy arena and ultimately a world view that, when I include not just me and mine, but the whole freakin 6.5 billion of us (and growing exponentially), has me pretty much freaked. Just another suburban kid gone over the edge (or perhaps, more accurately, come back from having been over the edge into dreamland into the reality of limited resources and the need for a stripped down lifestyle that takes into account the full extent of my actions). This side of the edge, however, isn't something I can easily make my own, because, it appears to me, if I am going to be able to truly regain what little sense of my self I might truly possess, I must be willing to put my tent on my back and just simply begin to wander and then keep wandering until I fall over dead (can't stop by the local Salvation Army for refreshment...that would only be dipping my toe back over the edge into dreamland again). Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? Anyway, so I am curious about your own comments. I'm still reading through all the articles connected to the links you have shared, so maybe my questions will be answered along the way. Nonetheless, I want to ask them here: 1) in regards to how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production, would you please explain in more detail? Also, perhaps lead me to a model industrial-scale process that DOES fit rational biofuels production? My immediate response to this has to do with a main point I have observed in my own interest in making biofuel: that this is not something me and all of my neighbors can do individually for various reasons, but especially because of limited feedstock and difficulty of distribution. Democracy does not extend to the realm of limited resources. I believe packaging of product for individuals has promoted this appearance. Consequently, it appears to me (and I could still be very blind on this point), we need some level of industrial-scale processes; and 2) will you please explain further how gobbling up crop wastes is done at the expense of soil fertility maintenance? Please understand, I am in NO WAY trying to be argumentative. I really am profoundly concerned about our world situation today and how I can be on the helpful side of it all (knapsack and all???). I don't have that much time left on the planet, and I'd like to go down swinging. Thanks. Mike - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Hi Mike Hi...I'd like to hear the list's opinion about the process developed by Iogen to produce cellulosic ethanol. Goldman Sachs announced yesterday (May 1) an investment of $30million Canadian in the company. Royal Dutch/Shell, Petro-Canada, and the Canadian Gov't have also all partnered with or are supporting Iogen. The first article below, by Sam Jaffe, an editor with The Scientist magazine, discusses cellulosic ethanol as well as a fuel cell developed by Lanny Scmidt. The second link is to the Iogen website itself. Thanks. Mike http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0407.jaffe.html http://www.iogen.ca/ Here's some previous discussion: http://snipurl.com/pxs2 biofuel Search results for 'iogen' 94 matches Ethanol from cellulose http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose Maybe it'll get off the ground now, it's been around for years and nothing happens. Like all the other ethanol-from-cellulose projects. What bothers me about it, other than how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production anyway, is that cellulose is widely regarded as waste, but the soil that produced it might not think so. There's often plenty of cellulose about that isn't utilised and could/should be harvested, but if Iogen et al start gobbling up crop wastes at the expense of soil fertility maintenance then clean, green and sustainable biofuels won't be the result. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity. - Original Message - From: MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List Is this clear...or am I coming off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List
Hi Mike Hi...I'd like to hear the list's opinion about the process developed by Iogen to produce cellulosic ethanol. Goldman Sachs announced yesterday (May 1) an investment of $30million Canadian in the company. Royal Dutch/Shell, Petro-Canada, and the Canadian Gov't have also all partnered with or are supporting Iogen. The first article below, by Sam Jaffe, an editor with The Scientist magazine, discusses cellulosic ethanol as well as a fuel cell developed by Lanny Scmidt. The second link is to the Iogen website itself. Thanks. Mike http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0407.jaffe.html http://www.iogen.ca/ Here's some previous discussion: http://snipurl.com/pxs2 biofuel Search results for 'iogen' 94 matches Ethanol from cellulose http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose Maybe it'll get off the ground now, it's been around for years and nothing happens. Like all the other ethanol-from-cellulose projects. What bothers me about it, other than how well industrial-scale processes fit rational biofuels production anyway, is that cellulose is widely regarded as waste, but the soil that produced it might not think so. There's often plenty of cellulose about that isn't utilised and could/should be harvested, but if Iogen et al start gobbling up crop wastes at the expense of soil fertility maintenance then clean, green and sustainable biofuels won't be the result. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
