Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Obviously you're not a republican. -Sid *Wayne* Mike Redler wrote: Back off Weaver! Some things really are impossible. I did some research and according to Wayne Manzanero, you're WAY off! It's impossible to tell the sun to leave the sky It's impossible to ask a baby not to cry Can the ocean keep from rushing to the shore? ...it's just impossible! -Redler Mike Weaver wrote: Nonsense. You're not trying hard enough: Alice laughed: There's no use trying, she said; one can't believe impossible things. I daresay you haven't had much practice, said the Queen. When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. /Alice in Wonderland. -Weaver [impossible snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Just in case anyone cares (at all) I, and I know others immediately tune out anything that has the phrase 'junk science' in it anywhere. The phrase was useful for about 4 months, many many years ago. It has long since lost any context. It is a pejorative term, initially used to describe logical fallacies masquerading as scientific explanations. In this sense, (from wikipedia) Affirming the consequent If someone is human (P), then she is mortal (Q). Anna is mortal (Q). Therefore Anna is human (P). But in fact Anna can be a cat; very much a mortal, but not a human one. This would be junk science. The term 'junk science' was QUICKLY co-opted by the Fred Singer's of the world (Heritage Institute) to dismiss stuff like a causality between 'second hand smoke' and health problems. Junk Science is a idealogical term, a heavily loaded one at that. So, when attempting to put a point across, one may do well to avoid using this phrase. --- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Nonsense. You're not trying hard enough: Alice laughed: There's no use trying, she said; one can't believe impossible things. I daresay you haven't had much practice, said the Queen. When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. /Alice in Wonderland. -Weaver / bob allen wrote: Howdy Kirk, I must strongly disagree with just about everything in this article. Kirk McLoren wrote: http://nov55.com/prin.html *Prions and Junk Science* *Prion proteins lack genetic material for creating their own evolution. right out of the gun this is silly. Most if not all genetic diseases are expressed via ineffective or missing proteins. Sickle cell anemia and Tay-Sachs disease to name just two. In fact I challenge anyone to name any inherited disease which doesn't involve protein. When the genetic material is in the host, it's a genetic disease; but prion diseases are obviously not genetic diseases.* *Ever hear of new variant CJD? There cannot be such a thing as a new variant for a genetic disease. sure there can, all it takes in the a mutation of the DNA which codes for the protein involved in the disease Evolution cannot work against the source of the DNA.* huh? *On This Page:* * *Prions* http://nov55.com/prin.html#pri * *Junk Science* http://nov55.com/prin.html#Jun *Point 1. *There is zero probability that two mutations will support each other in creating genetic diseases. again this just isn't so. there are numerous examples of diseases which require more than one gene. So there could not be any more than one mutation in the whole field of Scrapies-like diseases—across species and all. actually there are several isoforms for the prion. *Point 2. *Nature has had 600 million years to iron out the flaws in brain membrane proteins. It is not still killing people over it. way not true, or don't you believe in any number of other inheritable diseases such as early onset Alzheimer's, et al. *Point 3. *A protein that causes a similar protein to change does not cause the cells to produce more such proteins and destroy themselves doing so. the author of this report simply does not understand how prion diseases work. The prion simply acts as a template to cause the misfolding of existing protein, which destroys the native protein function *Point 4. *Proteins are not indestructible; they are among the most fragile biological molecules. Genetic material is much closer to indestructible, because it needs to maintain information without error. *Point 5. *There is no method of dissemination for a prion disease except eating brains, all it takes is exposure to the prion, yes, eating brains puts one at the highest risk, but it is not the only mechanism for exposure. snip (Americans do not pronounce i as e, except to glorify junk science.) now there is a forceful argument. :- one of my favorites is the things that swim in the sea- ghoti that's gh as pronounced in enough-- F o as in women-- I ti as in action-- sh ghoti Prions are proteins which supposedly cause Mad Cow Disease and variants such as Scrapies. The claim that a protein can do the same thing as infectious agents is in conflict with all scientific principles involved. no it's not, the mechanism is clear and reproducible. the native conformation of the protein is in a thermodynamically less stable shape than the prion form. All it takes is a catalyst to cause an exergonic reaction from native conformation to prion conformation etc, etc, etc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
In the spirit of Godwin's law and considering the fact that Chip is the first (to my knowledge) to make this observation, maybe this phenomenon should be called Chip's Law. :-) -Redler Chip Mefford wrote: Just in case anyone cares (at all) I, and I know others immediately tune out anything that has the phrase 'junk science' in it anywhere. The phrase was useful for about 4 months, many many years ago. It has long since lost any context. It is a pejorative term, initially used to describe logical fallacies masquerading as scientific explanations. In this sense, (from wikipedia) Affirming the consequent If someone is human (P), then she is mortal (Q). Anna is mortal (Q). Therefore Anna is human (P). But in fact Anna can be a cat; very much a mortal, but not a human one. This would be junk science. The term 'junk science' was QUICKLY co-opted by the Fred Singer's of the world (Heritage Institute) to dismiss stuff like a causality between 'second hand smoke' and health problems. Junk Science is a idealogical term, a heavily loaded one at that. So, when attempting to put a point across, one may do well to avoid using this phrase. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Chip, What ever it is, most of it has a tendency to show up in my Eudora Junk Box. LOL Hakan At 20:01 14/06/2006, you wrote: Just in case anyone cares (at all) I, and I know others immediately tune out anything that has the phrase 'junk science' in it anywhere. The phrase was useful for about 4 months, many many years ago. It has long since lost any context. It is a pejorative term, initially used to describe logical fallacies masquerading as scientific explanations. In this sense, (from wikipedia) Affirming the consequent If someone is human (P), then she is mortal (Q). Anna is mortal (Q). Therefore Anna is human (P). But in fact Anna can be a cat; very much a mortal, but not a human one. This would be junk science. The term 'junk science' was QUICKLY co-opted by the Fred Singer's of the world (Heritage Institute) to dismiss stuff like a causality between 'second hand smoke' and health problems. Junk Science is a idealogical term, a heavily loaded one at that. So, when attempting to put a point across, one may do well to avoid using this phrase. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Back off Weaver! Some things really are impossible. I did some research and according to Wayne Manzanero, you're WAY off! It's impossible to tell the sun to leave the sky It's impossible to ask a baby not to cry Can the ocean keep from rushing to the shore? ...it's just impossible! -Redler Mike Weaver wrote: Nonsense. You're not trying hard enough: Alice laughed: There's no use trying, she said; one can't believe impossible things. I daresay you haven't had much practice, said the Queen. When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. /Alice in Wonderland. -Weaver [impossible snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Howdy Kirk, I must strongly disagree with just about everything in this article. Kirk McLoren wrote: http://nov55.com/prin.html *Prions and Junk Science* *Prion proteins lack genetic material for creating their own evolution. right out of the gun this is silly. Most if not all genetic diseases are expressed via ineffective or missing proteins. Sickle cell anemia and Tay-Sachs disease to name just two. In fact I challenge anyone to name any inherited disease which doesn't involve protein. When the genetic material is in the host, it's a genetic disease; but prion diseases are obviously not genetic diseases.* *Ever hear of new variant CJD? There cannot be such a thing as a new variant for a genetic disease. sure there can, all it takes in the a mutation of the DNA which codes for the protein involved in the disease Evolution cannot work against the source of the DNA.* huh? *On This Page:* * *Prions* http://nov55.com/prin.html#pri * *Junk Science* http://nov55.com/prin.html#Jun *Point 1. *There is zero probability that two mutations will support each other in creating genetic diseases. again this just isn't so. there are numerous examples of diseases which require more than one gene. So there could not be any more than one mutation in the whole field of Scrapies-like diseases—across species and all. actually there are several isoforms for the prion. *Point 2. *Nature has had 600 million years to iron out the flaws in brain membrane proteins. It is not still killing people over it. way not true, or don't you believe in any number of other inheritable diseases such as early onset Alzheimer's, et al. *Point 3. *A protein that causes a similar protein to change does not cause the cells to produce more such proteins and destroy themselves doing so. the author of this report simply does not understand how prion diseases work. The prion simply acts as a template to cause the misfolding of existing protein, which destroys the native protein function *Point 4. *Proteins are not indestructible; they are among the most fragile biological molecules. Genetic material is much closer to indestructible, because it needs to maintain information without error. *Point 5. *There is no method of dissemination for a prion disease except eating brains, all it takes is exposure to the prion, yes, eating brains puts one at the highest risk, but it is not the only mechanism for exposure. snip (Americans do not pronounce i as e, except to glorify junk science.) now there is a forceful argument. :- one of my favorites is the things that swim in the sea- ghoti that's gh as pronounced in enough-- F o as in women-- I ti as in action-- sh ghoti Prions are proteins which supposedly cause Mad Cow Disease and variants such as Scrapies. The claim that a protein can do the same thing as infectious agents is in conflict with all scientific principles involved. no it's not, the mechanism is clear and reproducible. the native conformation of the protein is in a thermodynamically less stable shape than the prion form. All it takes is a catalyst to cause an exergonic reaction from native conformation to prion conformation etc, etc, etc. -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Prions and junk science
http://nov55.com/prin.html Prions and Junk Science Prion proteins lack genetic material for creating their own evolution. When the genetic material is in the host, it's a genetic disease; but prion diseases are obviously not genetic diseases. Ever hear of "new variant CJD?" There cannot be such a thing as a new variant for a genetic disease. Evolution cannot work against the source of the DNA.On This Page: Prions Junk Science Point 1. There is zero probability that two mutations will support each other in creating genetic diseases. So there could not be any more than one mutation in the whole field of Scrapies-like diseasesacross species and all. Point 2. Nature has had 600 million years to iron out the flaws in brain membrane proteins. It is not still killing people over it. Point 3. A protein that causes a similar protein to change does not cause the cells to produce more such proteins and destroy themselves doing so. Point 4. Proteins are not indestructible; they are among the most fragile biological molecules. Genetic material is much closer to indestructible, because it needs to maintain information without error. Point 5. There is no method of dissemination for a prion disease except eating brains, but sheep and animals in the wild spread the disease and acquire it like any other disease, while they never eat brains. The reason why it mattersbottom of page Here's the contradiction in the basic laws of genetics for prions. There has to be natural selection to create a significant disease. If natural selection picks out the most destructive proteins and promotes them, the problem is that the protein is limited by a primary structure which is coded by the host DNA. A particular primary structure cannot produce any number of different conformational alternatives for a protein. So the natural selection cannot be separated from the host DNA, and backwards evolution cannot act upon the host DNA making it more disease prone.Natural selection prevents genetic diseases from going beyond one mutation.A disease without genetic material (supposedly a prion protein) cannot have variants which change over time, and natural selection reduces genetic diseases over time preventing them from showing up in more than one species. Without its own separate genetic material, a disease has to be a single, isolated and sporadic mutation in the host DNA. There cannot be any order, complexity, or evolution to such a genetic disease. One reason for this biological principle is that the ratio of destructive mutations to constructive mutation is immense. The probability of two mutations aligning upon each other to enhance a genetic disease is functionally zero. It will never happen. Another factor involved is that natural selection improves survivability of the host by reducing genetic diseases, not enhancing them. The second mutation to worsen a genetic disease removes it from the gene pool through natural selection or survival of the fitest.And to believe the prion theory we are supposed to assume that the Scrapies-like diseases are genetic diseases, because they supposedly are not caused by a microbe. In other words, every point of complexity in prions must result from complex corruption of the host DNA, while DNA never corrupts itself in complex ways.Prions.(Americans do not pronounce i as e, except to glorify junk science.)Prions are proteins which supposedly cause Mad Cow Disease and variants such as Scrapies. The claim that a protein can do the same thing as infectious agents is in conflict with all scientific principles involved. There are better theories. Spiroplasma appears to be the most likely cause of those diseases. MadCowDiseasehastheappearanceofbeinggeneticallyengineered, since it lost its usual degree of species specificity. In other words, it jumped species from sheep to cattle and from cattle to humans. However, this property may have resulted from speeded up evolution due to recycling of carcasses as livestock feed.Scrapies is a disease that destroys the brains of sheep but does not normally affect humans. The causative agent was looked for but never found. In 1957, a variant of Scrapies was found to affect some human cannibals in New Guinea. The persons who ate the brains of their ancestors acquired the disease; others did not. So the disease was apparently promoted by eating brains.The human form is now called Creutzfeld-Jacob Disease (CJD). The group of related diseases is called Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathy (TSE). The Mad Cow form is called Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE). A few years ago, cattle in England acquired the BSE variant of the disease. The precipitating factor was assumed to be the feeding of dead livestock back to livestock. Soon, a few humans started acquiring the disease presumably from eating the meat of diseased cows. At that point, all cattle in England were slaughtered to protect the humans. There was
