RE: [Biofuel] Re: New thread - the Vikings.....
Fred, You read Swedish, so the article, http://www.fof.se/?id=043jPress should not have been a problem for you. History is both a very interesting and important subject and at its best hen it is shared by many. We all are subject to history and that it is almost always colored by the winners during certain periods. It is a petty to take those discussions off line, because it limits the exposure and possibilities of corrections. I can only talk about what I learned and it is probably one version of many and I rather stop this discussion, than reduce it to a two version discussion. For me, history is a fun puzzle with several true solutions. You also know that Gotland (the land of the Goth) is an island in the Baltic sea, about the size of the Spanish islands of Ibiza and Mallorca. Long bows is a distinct weapon of the Roman army, that was at the Nordic borders of the Roman empire, like in bow and arrow. It was not used in middle and Northern Europe and this serves as an archeological identification. This legion disappeared around 200 AD. It is not a ship design, if any misunderstood this. . That Gotland became the home of the first Vikings, is natural. The story you pointed us to, spans over several hundreds of years and it is some timing problems with it. The Roman empire seized to exists in the middle of the century 400 AD and still it is mentioned known Viking Kings by Jordanes, claimed to be a Roman, that belongs to a period which is several hundreds years later? The Vikings major populations was on Gotland and also around Upsala, north of Stockholm. This history, claimed by Jordanes, is very logical in its Geography and too easy to map by a current European. It is more likely that it can be questioned, than blaming some Christian manipulation. It is however clear manipulation by Christians priests, when it comes to the sagas by the Viking Gods. This is especially due to the habit of missionaries to maintain feasts and holidays, but give them Christian meanings. For the Vikings it was especially the feasts of mid winter and mid summer, which translates to Santa Lucia and a multitude of saints for mid summer. Here locally in Catalonia, Spain, mid summer is the fiesta of Sant Juan. Only a side paragraph about the original Same population of the Nordic countries, which probably came by land and the East. The Baltic Sea was regularly frozen in the past, which allowed for easy access from the East. The Same population have distinct features common with the Mongols and Chinese. This is also the case for natives of northern US and Canada. Those population movements are much earlier than the Vikings. Hakan At 03:33 AM 6/27/2005, you wrote: Hello All, I have refrained from this thread until now. What you are saying here is a mish-mash of the Snorri version of the origin of Odin, mixed with the basic folk movements. Snorri, to keep the Christian Church happy at the time he transcribed the Sagas etc, stated that Odin and the Aesir moved to Scandinavia from Troy !!! To obtain a better historical view, for a start, read the Origins of the Goths, written by a late day Roman, Jordanes, http://www.boudicca.de/jordanes0-e.htm here you can see the names and locations of the people who were in pre-pre-pre Viking Scandinavia. Jordanes states clearly the people living in Scandinavia were the long before the Romans, and we have in Norway Stone age villages, bronze age villages and Iron age sites. The Longship design can be see evolving in our cave drawings totally independent from Rome Similarly The origins of the Dutch http://www.boudicca.de/frisian1.htm The original Scandinavian Peoples (there are more than one) arrived in Norway, Sweden and Denmark some 14,000 years ago from Central point of the Caucasus. On the way, they mingled with the Finno Ungaro people and produced the current blends. The origins of the runic writing system are different from the origins of the people, and are indeed common with some runes found in Turkey. Concerning the development of the longships, the Viking technology is domestically developed and can be seen in the gradual evolution of the design from around the Baltic over centuries, and includes the versions that the Saxons used. As a further point concerning the Vikings ability to innovate, visit the State museum in Copenhagen and see the Viking wagon fitted with wooden roller bearings...nuff said. If anyone would like to continue this thread, I am more than happy to continue off line. Cheers Fred Enga -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk Sent: June 26, 2005 6:00 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: New thread - the Vikings. Bob, The Vikings are interesting, also because they were very good in physiological warfare. I did find an article about that they probably came from the middle east, but it is in Swedish, http://www.fof.se/?id=043jPress It is a well known
Re: [Biofuel] Re: New thread - the Vikings.....
howdy folks, I know this thread is far afield of biofuel, so if it is taken off-list, please include me. I am half swedish, my maternal grandparents being from Kilanda, Sweden, and emigrated to the usa around the end of the 19th century. thanks Hi Hakan, The Vikings have an intriguing history (if you don't mind my putting in my twopence worth). Originally a collection of pagan seafarers, the Vikings developed into a military force when they struck easy pickings in the wake of the Roman pullout from their northern colonies, including England. From about the Eighth Century onwards, driven by overpopulation at home and attracted by the relative helplessness of the abandoned Roman colonies, they spilled out from the Scandinavian homelands - today demarcated by Denmark, Norway and Sweden - in small fleets of war canoes that swept across much of the known world. In Europe, mostly around the sea coasts, they raped, pillaged and destroyed much of the post-Roman culture, bringing about the so-called Dark Ages in which literacy was kept alive in a few isolated monastries that escaped the invaders. They invaded the British isles in force and also set up settlements in Greenland, Iceland and North America. Their kings ruled in Ireland, England and Scotland and also held sway over the Atlantic Ocean islands of the Orkneys, the Faroes, the Shetlands and the Isle of Man. The Duchy of Normandy in France was founded by Vikings. Their war canoes also raided as far south as the Mediterranean and some Viking chiefs set up trade treaties with the Greeks. Eastwards they penetrated far into Russia (the name Russia is from the Scandinavian word Rus). and were for a time dominant in the Russian cities of Novgorod, Kiev and other centres. They were finally stopped at the borders of the Byzantine Empire, founded on Constantinople. The Byzantine was the eastern half of the Roman Empire that survived for a thousand years after the west had collapsed. The Vikings were so highly regarded by the Byzantines that they served as mercenaries to the Emperor in the form of the famed, and feared,Varingian Guard. The Vikings faded as a military force at the end of the 11 century just as European nationhood began to arise and with it the use of trained armies. However they left traces of their culture, and genes, throughout most of the western world. In England today, in any town north of line across the English midlands, you will still find Scandinavian influences in the local accent, with Newcastle being the most heavily accented from standard English. English towns with names ending in by (as in Whitby, Newby) indicate their Viking origins. Given the history of the Brits, and the number of blondes and redheads among them, the Vikings obviously also left a lot behind a lot of their seafaring and fighting genes. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 9:57 AM Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] Re: Environmentalism is dead. What's next? Chris, Maybe I am adding more to it than it is, but the connection is there. A very common Viking name, that we know existed from the Vikings and I think that it was a Hakon in the Ericsson crew, that discovered America. The Roman Empire and their conscript armies, was going far up North in Europe, including England. When it comes to my name, I am very sure. I discussed this with some people from Turkey and that were those who made me aware of the similarities between the rune stones and the Turkish writings. I saved the link to the web site, but lost it when my old computer crashed. If you find it, tell me, because I have not looked for it since then. Regarding my name, it made something clear and that was why I got so many email in Turkish. If you then start to look at the Viking villages, with its clear structure of advanced military fortifications etc. It also explain the mobility of the Vikings, the highly sophisticated shipping and navigation knowledge. The question is, from where came the Vikings and their tales about far away countries and Gods. It is two years since I looked closer on this, but I will see if I can find something again. Hakan At 08:06 PM 6/26/2005, you wrote: hello, hakan. ok, i thought you meant something along those lines. still, i don't get the link between the roman legions and the turks. or are you referring to the byzantines (if so, they didn't have 'legions')? i'll have to try and google the website you speak of, and see what they say. though, unless i'm reading more into it than you mean to suggest, i must say it seems highly dubious. -chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the
[Biofuel] Re: New thread - the Vikings.....
Hi Hakan, The Vikings have an intriguing history (if you don't mind my putting in my twopence worth). Originally a collection of pagan seafarers, the Vikings developed into a military force when they struck easy pickings in the wake of the Roman pullout from their northern colonies, including England. From about the Eighth Century onwards, driven by overpopulation at home and attracted by the relative helplessness of the abandoned Roman colonies, they spilled out from the Scandinavian homelands - today demarcated by Denmark, Norway and Sweden - in small fleets of war canoes that swept across much of the known world. In Europe, mostly around the sea coasts, they raped, pillaged and destroyed much of the post-Roman culture, bringing about the so-called Dark Ages in which literacy was kept alive in a few isolated monastries that escaped the invaders. They invaded the British isles in force and also set up settlements in Greenland, Iceland and North America. Their kings ruled in Ireland, England and Scotland and also held sway over the Atlantic Ocean islands of the Orkneys, the Faroes, the Shetlands and the Isle of Man. The Duchy of Normandy in France was founded by Vikings. Their war canoes also raided as far south as the Mediterranean and some Viking chiefs set up trade treaties with the Greeks. Eastwards they penetrated far into Russia (the name Russia is from the Scandinavian word Rus). and were for a time dominant in the Russian cities of Novgorod, Kiev and other centres. They were finally stopped at the borders of the Byzantine Empire, founded on Constantinople. The Byzantine was the eastern half of the Roman Empire that survived for a thousand years after the west had collapsed. The Vikings were so highly regarded by the Byzantines that they served as mercenaries to the Emperor in the form of the famed, and feared,Varingian Guard. The Vikings faded as a military force at the end of the 11 century just as European nationhood began to arise and with it the use of trained armies. However they left traces of their culture, and genes, throughout most of the western world. In England today, in any town north of line across the English midlands, you will still find Scandinavian influences in the local accent, with Newcastle being the most heavily accented from standard English. English towns with names ending in by (as in Whitby, Newby) indicate their Viking origins. Given the history of the Brits, and the number of blondes and redheads among them, the Vikings obviously also left a lot behind a lot of their seafaring and fighting genes. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 9:57 AM Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] Re: Environmentalism is dead. What's next? Chris, Maybe I am adding more to it than it is, but the connection is there. A very common Viking name, that we know existed from the Vikings and I think that it was a Hakon in the Ericsson crew, that discovered America. The Roman Empire and their conscript armies, was going far up North in Europe, including England. When it comes to my name, I am very sure. I discussed this with some people from Turkey and that were those who made me aware of the similarities between the rune stones and the Turkish writings. I saved the link to the web site, but lost it when my old computer crashed. If you find it, tell me, because I have not looked for it since then. Regarding my name, it made something clear and that was why I got so many email in Turkish. If you then start to look at the Viking villages, with its clear structure of advanced military fortifications etc. It also explain the mobility of the Vikings, the highly sophisticated shipping and navigation knowledge. The question is, from where came the Vikings and their tales about far away countries and Gods. It is two years since I looked closer on this, but I will see if I can find something again. Hakan At 08:06 PM 6/26/2005, you wrote: hello, hakan. ok, i thought you meant something along those lines. still, i don't get the link between the roman legions and the turks. or are you referring to the byzantines (if so, they didn't have 'legions')? i'll have to try and google the website you speak of, and see what they say. though, unless i'm reading more into it than you mean to suggest, i must say it seems highly dubious. -chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Re: New thread - the Vikings.....
Bob, The Vikings are interesting, also because they were very good in physiological warfare. I did find an article about that they probably came from the middle east, but it is in Swedish, http://www.fof.se/?id=043jPress It is a well known and reputable Swedish research publication. Unfortunately I could not find the Turkish site in English or any English site. The English are always talking about The Vikings with origin from the Nordic countries and the period after 800 ac. It says that a new and very probable theory is that the writings on the stones from the Vikings, use the written language of nabateic and that it is probable that the Vikings origin is Middle East and the area which now is Sinai, Jordan and South of Israel. The article says that it is possible that the Vikings came from Roman support troops, with long bows, which were not used in Europe at the time, but for the Vikings. It says that if these theories are right, it was a 1000 men Roman troop with long bows, stationed at the Northern border of the Roman Empire and this support troop was coming from the area that used nabateic language. This explains in that case that the Turks can read what the Vikings wrote and on a more basic plane, why my name is Hakan. The Vikings also had a special name for Constantinopel (Miklagård) which was an important trading point for them and it is many sagas about the Vikings visits. Miklagård meant the big city for the Vikings. I am talking about the origin of the Vikings and that is before 400-800 ac and you are referring to the history of the Vikings 800-1100 ac. Hakan At 02:06 AM 6/27/2005, you wrote: Hi Hakan, The Vikings have an intriguing history (if you don't mind my putting in my twopence worth). Originally a collection of pagan seafarers, the Vikings developed into a military force when they struck easy pickings in the wake of the Roman pullout from their northern colonies, including England. From about the Eighth Century onwards, driven by overpopulation at home and attracted by the relative helplessness of the abandoned Roman colonies, they spilled out from the Scandinavian homelands - today demarcated by Denmark, Norway and Sweden - in small fleets of war canoes that swept across much of the known world. In Europe, mostly around the sea coasts, they raped, pillaged and destroyed much of the post-Roman culture, bringing about the so-called Dark Ages in which literacy was kept alive in a few isolated monastries that escaped the invaders. They invaded the British isles in force and also set up settlements in Greenland, Iceland and North America. Their kings ruled in Ireland, England and Scotland and also held sway over the Atlantic Ocean islands of the Orkneys, the Faroes, the Shetlands and the Isle of Man. The Duchy of Normandy in France was founded by Vikings. Their war canoes also raided as far south as the Mediterranean and some Viking chiefs set up trade treaties with the Greeks. Eastwards they penetrated far into Russia (the name Russia is from the Scandinavian word Rus). and were for a time dominant in the Russian cities of Novgorod, Kiev and other centres. They were finally stopped at the borders of the Byzantine Empire, founded on Constantinople. The Byzantine was the eastern half of the Roman Empire that survived for a thousand years after the west had collapsed. The Vikings were so highly regarded by the Byzantines that they served as mercenaries to the Emperor in the form of the famed, and feared,Varingian Guard. The Vikings faded as a military force at the end of the 11 century just as European nationhood began to arise and with it the use of trained armies. However they left traces of their culture, and genes, throughout most of the western world. In England today, in any town north of line across the English midlands, you will still find Scandinavian influences in the local accent, with Newcastle being the most heavily accented from standard English. English towns with names ending in by (as in Whitby, Newby) indicate their Viking origins. Given the history of the Brits, and the number of blondes and redheads among them, the Vikings obviously also left a lot behind a lot of their seafaring and fighting genes. Regards, Bob. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 9:57 AM Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] Re: Environmentalism is dead. What's next? Chris, Maybe I am adding more to it than it is, but the connection is there. A very common Viking name, that we know existed from the Vikings and I think that it was a Hakon in the Ericsson crew, that discovered America. The Roman Empire and their conscript armies, was going far up North in Europe, including England. When it comes to my name, I am very sure. I discussed this with some people from Turkey and that were those who made me aware of the similarities between the rune stones and the Turkish writings.
RE: [Biofuel] Re: New thread - the Vikings.....
Hello All, I have refrained from this thread until now. What you are saying here is a mish-mash of the Snorri version of the origin of Odin, mixed with the basic folk movements. Snorri, to keep the Christian Church happy at the time he transcribed the Sagas etc, stated that Odin and the Aesir moved to Scandinavia from Troy !!! To obtain a better historical view, for a start, read the Origins of the Goths, written by a late day Roman, Jordanes, http://www.boudicca.de/jordanes0-e.htm here you can see the names and locations of the people who were in pre-pre-pre Viking Scandinavia. Jordanes states clearly the people living in Scandinavia were the long before the Romans, and we have in Norway Stone age villages, bronze age villages and Iron age sites. The Longship design can be see evolving in our cave drawings totally independent from Rome Similarly The origins of the Dutch http://www.boudicca.de/frisian1.htm The original Scandinavian Peoples (there are more than one) arrived in Norway, Sweden and Denmark some 14,000 years ago from Central point of the Caucasus. On the way, they mingled with the Finno Ungaro people and produced the current blends. The origins of the runic writing system are different from the origins of the people, and are indeed common with some runes found in Turkey. Concerning the development of the longships, the Viking technology is domestically developed and can be seen in the gradual evolution of the design from around the Baltic over centuries, and includes the versions that the Saxons used. As a further point concerning the Vikings ability to innovate, visit the State museum in Copenhagen and see the Viking wagon fitted with wooden roller bearings...nuff said. If anyone would like to continue this thread, I am more than happy to continue off line. Cheers Fred Enga -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk Sent: June 26, 2005 6:00 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Re: New thread - the Vikings. Bob, The Vikings are interesting, also because they were very good in physiological warfare. I did find an article about that they probably came from the middle east, but it is in Swedish, http://www.fof.se/?id=043jPress It is a well known and reputable Swedish research publication. Unfortunately I could not find the Turkish site in English or any English site. The English are always talking about The Vikings with origin from the Nordic countries and the period after 800 ac. It says that a new and very probable theory is that the writings on the stones from the Vikings, use the written language of nabateic and that it is probable that the Vikings origin is Middle East and the area which now is Sinai, Jordan and South of Israel. The article says that it is possible that the Vikings came from Roman support troops, with long bows, which were not used in Europe at the time, but for the Vikings. It says that if these theories are right, it was a 1000 men Roman troop with long bows, stationed at the Northern border of the Roman Empire and this support troop was coming from the area that used nabateic language. This explains in that case that the Turks can read what the Vikings wrote and on a more basic plane, why my name is Hakan. The Vikings also had a special name for Constantinopel (Miklagård) which was an important trading point for them and it is many sagas about the Vikings visits. Miklagård meant the big city for the Vikings. I am talking about the origin of the Vikings and that is before 400-800 ac and you are referring to the history of the Vikings 800-1100 ac. Hakan At 02:06 AM 6/27/2005, you wrote: Hi Hakan, The Vikings have an intriguing history (if you don't mind my putting in my twopence worth). Originally a collection of pagan seafarers, the Vikings developed into a military force when they struck easy pickings in the wake of the Roman pullout from their northern colonies, including England. From about the Eighth Century onwards, driven by overpopulation at home and attracted by the relative helplessness of the abandoned Roman colonies, they spilled out from the Scandinavian homelands - today demarcated by Denmark, Norway and Sweden - in small fleets of war canoes that swept across much of the known world. In Europe, mostly around the sea coasts, they raped, pillaged and destroyed much of the post-Roman culture, bringing about the so-called Dark Ages in which literacy was kept alive in a few isolated monastries that escaped the invaders. They invaded the British isles in force and also set up settlements in Greenland, Iceland and North America. Their kings ruled in Ireland, England and Scotland and also held sway over the Atlantic Ocean islands of the Orkneys, the Faroes, the Shetlands and the Isle of Man. The Duchy of Normandy in France was founded by Vikings. Their war canoes also raided as far south as the Mediterranean and some Viking chiefs set up
