Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners and magnetic water treatment
Hello Mike Greetings everyone, Here is one fairly recent conference paper that is available online via the link below that I think is worth reading for those on both sides of this debate. http://services.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003context= eci/heatexchanger The list of references in their paper is also an excellent source for finding more papers to read on this topic including some interesting history on the topic. The authors of this paper referred to these devices as PWT (Physical Water Treatment) devices. I know that many of you are more interested in fuel treatment using these devices than water treatment and I will endeavor to find a similar article like this one that covers the fuel treatment topic as well as this one covers water treatment. Also please keep in mind that prevention of scale formation on heat exchanger surfaces in water cooled heat exchangers, and home water heaters for instance is an energy saving issue. Whether it's an energy saving issue or not it's a different topic. In a discussion about magnets and improved fuel economy all that offering evidence of the use of magnets in water treatments can is muddy the waters (pardon me). As I said, this is a contentious issue. I said this too: Let's focus please on magnets and fuel, just to cut down on the variables and potential confusions, maybe it'll improve the chances of getting good answers. That was the original subject anyway, Ecoflow's Magnetic fuel saver for petrol diesel vehicles. http://snipurl.com/mqov [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners and magnetic water treatment (Signed Biofuel list owner so it wasn't just a suggestion.) Anyway offering a list of references to support your views is not much use. The burden of proof is on you, you're not going to persuade anyone by telling them they can find the evidence in a library if they check all these references - in other words they have to do the research. YOU check them. Find conclusive scientific evidence for your claims, quote it and provide the citations. Please stick to magnets and fuel. If you want to discuss magnets and water treatments and energy savings you're welcome, but please do it in a different thread. Also lists of references and bibliographies in research studies are not very reliable, not even in reputable peer-reviewed journal publications. One study showed that up to 35% of citations were wrong, and another found that up to a third of references were wrongly cited anyway, they didn't state what the authors thought they did, they just regurgitated it from other authors' lists of references without checking it. I think you should be more even-handed with your scepticism: I see bad lab data and lab procedures regularly in environmental test labs. Therefore, I question all facts given to me as lab test data and so called FACTS and I will for the rest of my life, unless it is run by 3 independent labs with double blinds, including sample matrix tests for interferences such as sample spikes and sample dilutions to verify the accuracy of the tests with a paper trail to ASTM standards, proper sample chain of custody paper work by reputable, unbiased and knowledgeable lab personnel (this includes sampling by unbiased personnel) and with proper sample preservation between the sample point and the lab test... -- Mike McGinness Sun, 12 Feb 2006 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg59973.html Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Mercury Levels Rising: Report Release Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Enjoy, Mike McGinness Keith Addison wrote: Hello Greg Until you take the human influence ( conscious or subconscious ) and other variables from the results, there is no way to do any conclusive scientific test.Without any conclusive scientific testing, there is no proof. Just because there are cars on the road that use magnets, and they appear to work, is no teat or proof that they work.The owners could very easily be subconscious be easier on the throttle, which in turn make it appear that the magnets are indeed working.One can just as easily say that Mutually Assured Destruction worked, so it is a good thing to have nuclear weapons. NOT. Just because something appears to work, does not mean that it actualy does, unless conclusive scientific testing - that eliminates any other possible variables as the actual reason for the improvement, proves it does. *** Sorry Keith, but, it's time for the pro-magnet crowd to put up verifiable testing or cut the yacking about something that is not proven to work - we may as well be talking about Zero point energy, cold fusion, or perpetual motion machines *** 'Fraid so. Or 200mpg carburettors, as Bob said. Same as before. But hope springs eternal. Maybe we could power an over-unity device
Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners and magnetic water treatment
Hello Greg Until you take the human influence ( conscious or subconscious ) and other variables from the results, there is no way to do any conclusive scientific test.Without any conclusive scientific testing, there is no proof. Just because there are cars on the road that use magnets, and they appear to work, is no teat or proof that they work.The owners could very easily be subconscious be easier on the throttle, which in turn make it appear that the magnets are indeed working.One can just as easily say that Mutually Assured Destruction worked, so it is a good thing to have nuclear weapons. NOT. Just because something appears to work, does not mean that it actualy does, unless conclusive scientific testing - that eliminates any other possible variables as the actual reason for the improvement, proves it does. *** Sorry Keith, but, it's time for the pro-magnet crowd to put up verifiable testing or cut the yacking about something that is not proven to work - we may as well be talking about Zero point energy, cold fusion, or perpetual motion machines *** 'Fraid so. Or 200mpg carburettors, as Bob said. Same as before. But hope springs eternal. Maybe we could power an over-unity device on eternally springing hope. Oh, sorry, that IS how they're powered, isn't it. Anyway I agree, the pro-magnet crowd should put up verifiable testing or cut the yacking. All best Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Greg H. - Original Message - From: Andres Secco [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 6:28 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditionersandmagnetic watertreatment Greg, My experience is totally different and disagree with your concepts of no real proofs. There are thousands of cars, cooling towers and boilers running with magnets with very good results. Better fosil fuel yield no fouling are the reported results. Of course if someone wants to pasteurize or sterilize water is unlikely to do it with magnets. Magnets do not make miracles but say that there is a waste of time to use them is too much. - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditionersandmagnetic water treatment Mike, You have made a statement that really stands out as to how unreliable the science of magnetism really is. Ozone is now a proven technology for many things, including purification of water, while 30 years ago it was in the realm of junk science. Yet, after 30 years, magnets are still in the realm of junk science ( sounds good - maybe even possible, but no real proof ). One would think that thirty years would be plenty of time to establish the how and why it works and be accepted by the mainstream science community. Yet, magnets are still have not been proven by scientific trials. You mention trials by putting them on fuel pipelines, and watching the differences in the amount of wax build up, but, there is no proof in that. The amount of wax in fuel varies with the time of the year, and the particular fuel flowing through the pipeline.The same pipeline will handle ( in order of decreasing wax content ) heating oil ( Diesel #4 ), vehicle diesel in the summer( Diesel #2 ), vehicle Diesel in the winter ( Diesel #1 or a blend of #1 and #2 depending on how cold the area get's, that the fuel is going to ) and possibly kerosene depending on the area. A build up of wax that occurred when heating oil is being pumped through the pipeline, will dissolve when diesel #1 or kerosene is being pumped through the pipeline. Wax buildup is also more likely to occur during the late winter / early spring, time frame after a long period of cold temps have cooled down the soil that the pipeline runs through - granted, at the depth the pipeline is, the temperature difference would only amount to a few degrees, but, even a few degrees, can make a difference, with a increase or decrease in wax build up with the different fuels. Without controlling the variables, other that using or not using magnets, it is not a verifiable test, nor is it scientific by any means. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Mike McGinness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 18:25 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners andmagnetic water treatment SNIP These same magnets are sold for magnetic water conditioning. So is ozone, which has moved from the realm of sudo science in the USA 30 years ago, to a point now where it is used instead of chlorine in nearly 50% of US drinking water supply systems. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners and magnetic water treatment
Howdy Mike, Mike McGinness wrote: I studied this topic extensively for 30 years now and I am a chemical engineer. It is not all a con, though some of it has a lot of pseudo science why it works theories printed in the marketing literature as fact (which it is not). Thomas Register (in 1990) listed over 50 US manufacturers of these devices, some had been in business with over $10,000,000 in sales since the early 1970's, so there is something to them! this doesn't address whether these devices work, just that there are many who believe they do. Bink's manufacturing, and later Devillbuss was selling them (electrostatic versions) for water wash paint booths to kill collected paint overspray, and to keep it from scaling up the walls, etc. of water wash paint booths back in the late 1970's. Ingersol Rand introduced them later for cooling water scale control on air compressor water cooled aftercoolers. we were talking about fuel and energy, please one thing at a time. I do know it works in some situations, and not in others and it is not well understood yet in the scientific community what the parameters are for making it work all the time (controls). It is more of an empirical trial and error technology so far with most of the application data as to where and when it does and does not work locked up the field trial data of the manufacturers and retailers. that doesn't sound like very credible evidence to me Even hydrocarbon fuel has some polar molecules. There are also short lived free radicals in the fuel that are affected. Also look into paramagnetic (calcium, Ca+2, O2 for some interesting insights). I have seen electromagnetic units, 24 diameter and larger selling for $100,000 used in oil pipelines to stop paraffin wax (polymerization) scale from forming in the pipelines. but have you seen two pipelines side by side, one with and one without, and compared the waxing of the two? The source of power for the permanent magnetic units is not the magnet. It is the pump motor driving the pump which is pushing the fluid through the magnetic field, or the case of the newer catalytic units it is the turbulence of the fluid flowing past dissimilar metals at the surface in an alloy causing an electrochemical effect. The velocity of the fluid going through the magnetic field (or catalytic units) has a critical velocity window (turbulence and friction are involved). It is the flow of the fluid through the magnetic field and the resulting attempt at alignment by the polar molecules (or their electrons) in the fluid that causes the physical chemical changes in the fluid. Colloidal particles are disturbed, broken up and rearranged. to me it would make more sense if the polarization of the molecules caused an alignment and therefore larger particles... This is an area that should be seriously researched at the university chemical engineering level someday. I can assure you that if there was any evidence or even a rational explanation for why it worked, it would be researched. Unfortunately the Russians did most of the magnetic water and fuel treatment R D in this area when it was the Soviet Union during the cold war. they also did psychic research. Just because you look doesn't mean you can find. During that time the US chemical industry paid (via so called R D Grants) US universities to prove it did not work (on water for controlling calcium scale for instance, the tests were rigged to fail, to prove they did not work) in order to insure continuing chemical sales for water treatment chemicals of cooling towers, boilers, etc. this is beginning to sound like the mythic 200 mpg carburetor that oil companies are hiding. They did the same thing to the ozone industry until NASA (a NACE society published paper covered this about 15 years ago) proved that Ozone could eliminate calcium scaling and bacteria with out additional chemicals in cooling towers as well as allow the increase of the number of cycles of concentration. we are a long way from magnetic fuel conditioning I have personally run a controlled test using a magnetic device and witnessed the existing hard calcium pipe scale disappear and turn into sludge in a closed system in an aqueous environment. It also turns out that depending on the orientation of the magnetic field lines around the fluid flow one can encourage or discourage biological growth in the fluid and the evidence for this is? For instance if oriented properly it can inhibit bio fouling of diesel fuel when it is flowing though the device (does not work on fuel sitting in the tank). UTMB hospital demonstrated years ago the use of an electromagnetic field coil to speed the healing of broken leg bones (paramagnetic calcium!!!) in a patient who's leg had repeatedly failed to heal and was rebroken repeatedly as a result. A few weeks of the magnetic
Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners and magnetic water treatment
Harbour Tools currently sells a fuel magnetic device for less than $20.00 retail for use on the fuel lines in automobiles. Home Depot was recently selling magnetic / catalytic water treatment devices for calcium scale control on home water heaters I actually saw something like this recently on HGTV, again not the most scientific source, but it was something they wrapped around the water supply line and plugged it in...they were all about it ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners and magnetic water treatment
Howdy Bob, and all LOL! Magnets again. Seems they have a certain attraction. The first or second time it happened, about four or five years ago, it quite quickly degenerated into serious flame-warfare between sceptics and true believers, no middle ground, take no captives. Until the rest of us got furious and demanded I put a stop to it, so I banned it, to loud applause. Still it comes up every now and then, like the moon. I let it go the last few times just to see what would happen, not much, but now we're having it out. Oh well. Bob's leading the sceptics and probably most of the list members are sceptics, being rigorous about it and about all things is the list's long and honorable tradition, we're curmudgeonly about it, quite right too. Wouldn't it be nice though if there were some real evidence? Are you holding your breath too? LOL! Meanwhile on the other side Mike McGinness is being the sceptic in the mercury thread, he's sceptical about hair tests and about all lab results anyway unless they're rigorous enough to be corroborated by three independent labs with double blinds and so on, which I wouldn't necessarily argue with (eg NBB members get A-OK ASTM lab test results and then it has to be recalled because it's full of glyc or something, or Industrial Biotests, eg, and more recent cases since), but on the other hand he's offering us the true gospel on magnets. Or did I get it all wrong. Snippets: My point is that companies that manufacture and sell only one device, if that device does not work, do not build up large companies that are 30 years old having sales in excess of 10,000 million dollars per year if that one device does not work, and certainly not over 50 companies. Ah, the magic of the marketplace. I wonder what P.T. Barnum would have said about it. But 10,000 million dollars??? this is beginning to sound like the mythic 200 mpg carburetor that oil companies are hiding. Yes isn't it. It's done that before and they got all mixed up, IIRC. The over-unity folks just love magnets too. Other than the magnets themselves, what have magnets and fuel economy got to do with magnets and water and controlling calcium scale on home water heaters and so on? In the last few years water has been turning out to be much stranger stuff than anyone thought, whether or not it involves magnets, but I don't think there have been any such revelations about the nature of fuel. Let's focus please on magnets and fuel, just to cut down on the variables and potential confusions, maybe it'll improve the chances of getting good answers. That was the original subject anyway, Ecoflow's Magnetic fuel saver for petrol diesel vehicles. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Howdy Mike, Mike McGinness wrote: I studied this topic extensively for 30 years now and I am a chemical engineer. It is not all a con, though some of it has a lot of pseudo science why it works theories printed in the marketing literature as fact (which it is not). Thomas Register (in 1990) listed over 50 US manufacturers of these devices, some had been in business with over $10,000,000 in sales since the early 1970's, so there is something to them! this doesn't address whether these devices work, just that there are many who believe they do. Bink's manufacturing, and later Devillbuss was selling them (electrostatic versions) for water wash paint booths to kill collected paint overspray, and to keep it from scaling up the walls, etc. of water wash paint booths back in the late 1970's. Ingersol Rand introduced them later for cooling water scale control on air compressor water cooled aftercoolers. we were talking about fuel and energy, please one thing at a time. I do know it works in some situations, and not in others and it is not well understood yet in the scientific community what the parameters are for making it work all the time (controls). It is more of an empirical trial and error technology so far with most of the application data as to where and when it does and does not work locked up the field trial data of the manufacturers and retailers. that doesn't sound like very credible evidence to me Even hydrocarbon fuel has some polar molecules. There are also short lived free radicals in the fuel that are affected. Also look into paramagnetic (calcium, Ca+2, O2 for some interesting insights). I have seen electromagnetic units, 24 diameter and larger selling for $100,000 used in oil pipelines to stop paraffin wax (polymerization) scale from forming in the pipelines. but have you seen two pipelines side by side, one with and one without, and compared the waxing of the two? The source of power for the permanent magnetic units is not the magnet. It is the pump motor driving the pump which is pushing the fluid through the magnetic field, or the case of the newer
Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners and magnetic water treatment
I studied this topic extensively for 30 years now and I am a chemical engineer. It is not all a con, though some of it has a lot of pseudo science why it works theories printed in the marketing literature as fact (which it is not). Thomas Register (in 1990) listed over 50 US manufacturers of these devices, some had been in business with over $10,000,000 in sales since the early 1970's, so there is something to them! Bink's manufacturing, and later Devillbuss was selling them (electrostatic versions) for water wash paint booths to kill collected paint overspray, and to keep it from scaling up the walls, etc. of water wash paint booths back in the late 1970's. Ingersol Rand introduced them later for cooling water scale control on air compressor water cooled aftercoolers. I do know it works in some situations, and not in others and it is not well understood yet in the scientific community what the parameters are for making it work all the time (controls). It is more of an empirical trial and error technology so far with most of the application data as to where and when it does and does not work locked up the field trial data of the manufacturers and retailers. Even hydrocarbon fuel has some polar molecules. There are also short lived free radicals in the fuel that are affected. Also look into paramagnetic (calcium, Ca+2, O2 for some interesting insights). I have seen electromagnetic units, 24 diameter and larger selling for $100,000 used in oil pipelines to stop paraffin wax (polymerization) scale from forming in the pipelines. The source of power for the permanent magnetic units is not the magnet. It is the pump motor driving the pump which is pushing the fluid through the magnetic field, or the case of the newer catalytic units it is the turbulence of the fluid flowing past dissimilar metals at the surface in an alloy causing an electrochemical effect. The velocity of the fluid going through the magnetic field (or catalytic units) has a critical velocity window (turbulence and friction are involved). It is the flow of the fluid through the magnetic field and the resulting attempt at alignment by the polar molecules (or their electrons) in the fluid that causes the physical chemical changes in the fluid. Colloidal particles are disturbed, broken up and rearranged. This is an area that should be seriously researched at the university chemical engineering level someday. Unfortunately the Russians did most of the magnetic water and fuel treatment R D in this area when it was the Soviet Union during the cold war. During that time the US chemical industry paid (via so called R D Grants) US universities to prove it did not work (on water for controlling calcium scale for instance, the tests were rigged to fail, to prove they did not work) in order to insure continuing chemical sales for water treatment chemicals of cooling towers, boilers, etc. They did the same thing to the ozone industry until NASA (a NACE society published paper covered this about 15 years ago) proved that Ozone could eliminate calcium scaling and bacteria with out additional chemicals in cooling towers as well as allow the increase of the number of cycles of concentration. I have personally run a controlled test using a magnetic device and witnessed the existing hard calcium pipe scale disappear and turn into sludge in a closed system in an aqueous environment. It also turns out that depending on the orientation of the magnetic field lines around the fluid flow one can encourage or discourage biological growth in the fluid For instance if oriented properly it can inhibit bio fouling of diesel fuel when it is flowing though the device (does not work on fuel sitting in the tank). UTMB hospital demonstrated years ago the use of an electromagnetic field coil to speed the healing of broken leg bones (paramagnetic calcium!!!) in a patient who's leg had repeatedly failed to heal and was rebroken repeatedly as a result. A few weeks of the magnetic treatment and the leg permanently healed in just a few weeks, in what usually takes 3 months! It was the flow of blood through the magnetic field (in my opinion that affecting the paramagnetic calcium in the blood, and / or possibly the iron-hemoglobin) that speed up the healing process. The point is it worked. Harbour Tools currently sells a fuel magnetic device for less than $20.00 retail for use on the fuel lines in automobiles. Home Depot was recently selling magnetic / catalytic water treatment devices for calcium scale control on home water heaters I would find it most interesting to see test results of using these devices ( including magnetic, RF, electrostatic, and catalytic units ) on the air itself (instead of the fuel) since the O2, oxygen, is a di-radical with two unpaired electrons! Mike McGinness [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nmfrc.org/ateww.cfm http://www.ecoshieldenv.com Andres Secco wrote: All will depend on how
