Re: [Biofuel] Solar technique could lead to cleaner, cheaper hydrogen
I recall that chemistry experiment, (also works with potassium), both metals were kept under oil to prevent oxidation. They're very unstable metals, and not found on earth in their pure forms. Hence the question becomes: How much energy does it take to purify the metal, and once this is considered, is the production of H2 still cheap? doug swanson bmolloy wrote: Hi All, This thread intrigued, so much so that I posted it around among friends for comment. One said that sodium was the answer to generating cheap hydrogen. The exchange as follows. Any comment, anyone? Regards, Bob. Sodium pill? What? How? Tell me more. Very little to tell. Sixty-four years ago, in school chemistry, I learnt, but did not see (because our school didn't have a lab) that if you threw a small piece of sodium metal into a jar of water you got an explosive reaction in which nascent hydrogen was formed. Na + H2O = NaOH + H ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar technique could lead to cleaner, cheaper hydrogen
Hi all, Sodium in air will burn instantly and explosively. Wasn't this the reason Thomas Edison got fired and lost part of his hearing because he let dry a piece of sodium metal in the box car he was experimenting in. The box car burned to the ground too. Sodium metal is usually placed in oil to keep it from coming in contact with air(oxygen) which is very explosive. Best regards to all --- bmolloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, This thread intrigued, so much so that I posted it around among friends for comment. One said that sodium was the answer to generating cheap hydrogen. The exchange as follows. Any comment, anyone? Regards, Bob. Sodium pill? What? How? Tell me more. Very little to tell. Sixty-four years ago, in school chemistry, I learnt, but did not see (because our school didn't have a lab) that if you threw a small piece of sodium metal into a jar of water you got an explosive reaction in which nascent hydrogen was formed. Na + H2O = NaOH + H ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar technique could lead to cleaner, cheaper hydrogen
This is truly an excellent way to generate cheap hydrogen on command. It eliminates the storage difficulty that hydrogen gas presents. The only problem is generating cheap pure sodium... Rick bmolloy wrote: Hi All, This thread intrigued, so much so that I posted it around among friends for comment. One said that sodium was the answer to generating cheap hydrogen. The exchange as follows. Any comment, anyone? Regards, Bob. Sodium pill? What? How? Tell me more. Very little to tell. Sixty-four years ago, in school chemistry, I learnt, but did not see (because our school didn't have a lab) that if you threw a small piece of sodium metal into a jar of water you got an explosive reaction in which nascent hydrogen was formed. Na + H2O = NaOH + H ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar technique could lead to cleaner, cheaper hydrogen
Hmmm. Seems very similar to generating hydrogen on demand from water by electrolyzing it. Works great, but there is that pesky energy balance thing... I suspect the energy to refine sodium is much greater than what you ever get out of the hydrogen. Plus, what to do with the left over sodium hydroxide solution? That's not friendly stuff... On 9/19/05, Richard Littrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is truly an excellent way to generate cheap hydrogen on command. It eliminates the storage difficulty that hydrogen gas presents. The only problem is generating cheap pure sodium... Rick bmolloy wrote: Hi All, This thread intrigued, so much so that I posted it around among friends for comment. One said that sodium was the answer to generating cheap hydrogen. The exchange as follows. Any comment, anyone? Regards, Bob. Sodium pill? What? How? Tell me more. Very little to tell. Sixty-four years ago, in school chemistry, I learnt, but did not see (because our school didn't have a lab) that if you threw a small piece of sodium metal into a jar of water you got an explosive reaction in which nascent hydrogen was formed. Na + H2O = NaOH + H ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar technique could lead to cleaner, cheaper hydrogen
Dear Doug, No. Rick des wrote: I recall that chemistry experiment, (also works with potassium), both metals were kept under oil to prevent oxidation. They're very unstable metals, and not found on earth in their pure forms. Hence the question becomes: How much energy does it take to purify the metal, and once this is considered, is the production of H2 still cheap? doug swanson bmolloy wrote: Hi All, This thread intrigued, so much so that I posted it around among friends for comment. One said that sodium was the answer to generating cheap hydrogen. The exchange as follows. Any comment, anyone? Regards, Bob. Sodium pill? What? How? Tell me more. Very little to tell. Sixty-four years ago, in school chemistry, I learnt, but did not see (because our school didn't have a lab) that if you threw a small piece of sodium metal into a jar of water you got an explosive reaction in which nascent hydrogen was formed. Na + H2O = NaOH + H ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar technique could lead to cleaner, cheaper hydrogen
Actually, whereas potassium will react with moisture in the air, sodium won't react so rapidly. Chuck it water and it will, quite excitingly. Ken Chua wrote: Hi all, Sodium in air will burn instantly and explosively. Wasn't this the reason Thomas Edison got fired and lost part of his hearing because he let dry a piece of sodium metal in the box car he was experimenting in. The box car burned to the ground too. Sodium metal is usually placed in oil to keep it from coming in contact with air(oxygen) which is very explosive. Best regards to all --- bmolloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, This thread intrigued, so much so that I posted it around among friends for comment. One said that sodium was the answer to generating cheap hydrogen. The exchange as follows. Any comment, anyone? Regards, Bob. Sodium pill? What? How? Tell me more. Very little to tell. Sixty-four years ago, in school chemistry, I learnt, but did not see (because our school didn't have a lab) that if you threw a small piece of sodium metal into a jar of water you got an explosive reaction in which nascent hydrogen was formed. Na + H2O = NaOH + H ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar technique could lead to cleaner, cheaper hydrogen
sure it works but it takes more energy to make the sodium than you get back in hydorgen. bmolloy wrote: Hi All, This thread intrigued, so much so that I posted it around among friends for comment. One said that sodium was the answer to generating cheap hydrogen. The exchange as follows. Any comment, anyone? Regards, Bob. Sodium pill? What? How? Tell me more. Very little to tell. Sixty-four years ago, in school chemistry, I learnt, but did not see (because our school didn't have a lab) that if you threw a small piece of sodium metal into a jar of water you got an explosive reaction in which nascent hydrogen was formed. Na + H2O = NaOH + H ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar technique could lead to cleaner, cheaper hydrogen
Dear Ken, That was phosphorus. Rick Ken Chua wrote: Hi all, Sodium in air will burn instantly and explosively. Wasn't this the reason Thomas Edison got fired and lost part of his hearing because he let dry a piece of sodium metal in the box car he was experimenting in. The box car burned to the ground too. Sodium metal is usually placed in oil to keep it from coming in contact with air(oxygen) which is very explosive. Best regards to all --- bmolloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, This thread intrigued, so much so that I posted it around among friends for comment. One said that sodium was the answer to generating cheap hydrogen. The exchange as follows. Any comment, anyone? Regards, Bob. Sodium pill? What? How? Tell me more. Very little to tell. Sixty-four years ago, in school chemistry, I learnt, but did not see (because our school didn't have a lab) that if you threw a small piece of sodium metal into a jar of water you got an explosive reaction in which nascent hydrogen was formed. Na + H2O = NaOH + H ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar technique could lead to cleaner, cheaper hydrogen
Howdy Rick and Ken, Potassium will burst into flame due to reaction with moist air, sodium will not. There are three allotropes of phosphorous. Red (amorphous) and Black (laminar) are not particularly reactive (think of the red of a match head- that's red phosphorous) Only white Phosphorous, P4, which has a tetrahedral structure, is reactive with oxygen. It is stored under water. Richard Littrell wrote: Dear Ken, That was phosphorus. Rick Ken Chua wrote: Hi all, Sodium in air will burn instantly and explosively. Wasn't this the reason Thomas Edison got fired and lost part of his hearing because he let dry a piece of sodium metal in the box car he was experimenting in. The box car burned to the ground too. Sodium metal is usually placed in oil to keep it from coming in contact with air(oxygen) which is very explosive. Best regards to all --- bmolloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, This thread intrigued, so much so that I posted it around among friends for comment. One said that sodium was the answer to generating cheap hydrogen. The exchange as follows. Any comment, anyone? Regards, Bob. Sodium pill? What? How? Tell me more. Very little to tell. Sixty-four years ago, in school chemistry, I learnt, but did not see (because our school didn't have a lab) that if you threw a small piece of sodium metal into a jar of water you got an explosive reaction in which nascent hydrogen was formed. Na + H2O = NaOH + H ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Solar technique could lead to cleaner, cheaper hydrogen
Hi All, This thread intrigued, so much so that I posted it around among friends for comment. One said that sodium was the answer to generating cheap hydrogen. The exchange as follows. Any comment, anyone? Regards, Bob. Sodium pill? What? How? Tell me more. Very little to tell. Sixty-four years ago, in school chemistry, I learnt, but did not see (because our school didn't have a lab) that if you threw a small piece of sodium metal into a jar of water you got an explosive reaction in which nascent hydrogen was formed. Na + H2O = NaOH + H ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Solar technique could lead to cleaner, cheaper hydrogen
News Published online: 4 August 2005; | doi:10.1038/news050801-11 Sunlight used to smelt zinc Mark Peplow Solar technique could lead to cleaner, cheaper hydrogen. The solar tower can produce temperatures up to 1,200 °C © Weizmann Inst. Scientists have found a way to harness the Sun's energy to extract zinc metal, which can then be used to produce hydrogen simply by pouring water over it. With improvements, the process may prove a cleaner, more efficient way of producing hydrogen for fuel-cell-powered vehicles, which would emit nothing more polluting than water. Current methods of producing hydrogen gas rely either on the fossil fuels they purport to replace, or water-splitting technology that has so far been too inefficient to deliver cheap hydrogen. It has long been known that metals such as zinc can release hydrogen from water. But purifying the metal is the hard part. The traditional method of obtaining zinc involves many chemical steps, baths of acid and masses of electricity. Researchers at the solar-powered plant at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Rehovot, Israel, have found a better way to deliver the metal. They use 64 seven-metre-wide mirrors to focus a beam of sunlight onto a tower containing the mineral zinc oxide and wood charcoal. The beam delivers 300 kilowatts of power, heating the chemical reactor up to 1,200 °C and delivering up to 50 kilograms of powdered zinc per hour. We have a lot of zinc powder available here for everyone. Michael Epstein Weizmann Institute We have a lot of zinc powder available here for everyone, laughs Michael Epstein, part of the Weizmann team. And this could be done on a very large scale, he adds. We can imagine solar plants around the Mediterranean producing zinc. As a bonus, he adds, the zinc should also be useful for making batteries. Epstein will present results from the SOLZINC project, which includes researchers from Switzerland, Sweden and France, on 8 August at the International Solar Energy Society conference in Orlando, Florida. Cleaning up The process isn't yet entirely clean. The zinc-forming reaction also releases carbon monoxide from the charcoal, which eventually converts to the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. In a full-scale industrial process, the carbon monoxide could be harnessed to help produce even more hydrogen from water. But this too would produce carbon dioxide. For now the process produces as much carbon dioxide as extracting the same amount of hydrogen from natural gas, Epstein says. But, he adds, the carbon in his reaction is a renewable resource rather than a fossil fuel. Eventually, the team hopes to replace charcoal with agricultural waste. AND, if they can get the solar mirrors to heat things up to 1,800 °C, they would be able to extract zinc without any carbon!!! Transport friendly It's an interesting option, says John Maddy, a hydrogen-power expert at the University of Glamorgan in Pontypridd, Wales. The work could be useful in sunny climes, he says. But, he adds, transporting either zinc or hydrogen over long distances is a major hurdle. I'm more of a advocate of local resources, says Maddy. The team is trying to produce other, lighter metals, such as magnesium, in the same way, although these require hotter temperatures to extract. If a clean way can be found to make these low-density metals, Epstein suggests, they could be used to produce hydrogen right in the tank of a car. That would remove the need to transport the gas altogether. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
