Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
I think he was talking about a dip tank like what is used to clean industrial parts en masse. it relies on complementary ultrasonic frequencies to basically heat and rattle the crud out of things my friend uses them at the printing shop where he works. He does? And it works?? Why doesn't someone sell them to the mainstream press? Or d'you think you'd have to nuke the journalists instead? Best Keith - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process Joe. What are you talking about when it comes to ultrasonics? Jim Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; You ever considered using ultrasonics to speed up the reaction? You still have to deal with the settling time but I hear the US can make the reaction happen in minutes instead of hours. I'm trying to get my hands on a cell disrupter to put inline on my recirculation tube to test this but haven't had any luck yet. Something to ponder and if any of the chem whiz's out there in e-land care to comment I'm all eyes. Joe Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
A cell disrupter will be fine for small quantities of material but not large ones. You can get ultrasonic parts cleaners but I wouldn't like to guess at the price of them!! At 18:38 30/03/2006 +0900, you wrote: I think he was talking about a dip tank like what is used to clean industrial parts en masse. it relies on complementary ultrasonic frequencies to basically heat and rattle the crud out of things my friend uses them at the printing shop where he works. He does? And it works?? Why doesn't someone sell them to the mainstream press? Or d'you think you'd have to nuke the journalists instead? Best Keith - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process Joe. What are you talking about when it comes to ultrasonics? Jim Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; You ever considered using ultrasonics to speed up the reaction? You still have to deal with the settling time but I hear the US can make the reaction happen in minutes instead of hours. I'm trying to get my hands on a cell disrupter to put inline on my recirculation tube to test this but haven't had any luck yet. Something to ponder and if any of the chem whiz's out there in e-land care to comment I'm all eyes. Joe Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Chris Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
You can buy fairly small ones - they are advertised (or used to be) to clean jewelry. Keith Addison wrote: I think he was talking about a dip tank like what is used to clean industrial parts en masse. it relies on complementary ultrasonic frequencies to basically heat and rattle the crud out of things my friend uses them at the printing shop where he works. He does? And it works?? Why doesn't someone sell them to the mainstream press? Or d'you think you'd have to nuke the journalists instead? Best Keith - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process Joe. What are you talking about when it comes to ultrasonics? Jim Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; You ever considered using ultrasonics to speed up the reaction? You still have to deal with the settling time but I hear the US can make the reaction happen in minutes instead of hours. I'm trying to get my hands on a cell disrupter to put inline on my recirculation tube to test this but haven't had any luck yet. Something to ponder and if any of the chem whiz's out there in e-land care to comment I'm all eyes. Joe Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
To answer the question what am I talking about, I heard about it on another biodiesel list and I'm not sure about the exact setup. I expect it is a way of adding energy into the process. I am interested in this as I was in the so called " electrically catalized" alternative process which I as yet have not been able to reproduce. The idea here is that energy added can help speed up a reaction and I think ( chemists blast me if I'm wrong) can tip the balance in favor of one direction in equilibrium type reactions. Actually heating the oil is a form of this type of energy input and we do this already. I have been curious about other ways of coupling energy into the system such as UV radiation, RF radiation and now I hear about ultrasonics. Typically the transducers comercially available are in the 40 Khz frequency range. The little jewelery cleaners are low power and I wouldn't waste my time although they are good for assisting in nano particle production and electro-colloid generation. An industrial power level US generator might be 300-500 watts and often is capable of frequency swept operation. I don't think the frequency is so important from a quantum perspective as it would be in the case of higher frequency stimulation like RF, microwave, or UV radiation where energy absorbtion depends on the bandgap of the material being radiated, but in the case of ultrasonics it is more due to mechanical effects. Microcavitation creates small scale shockwaves which have surprisingly high energy densities though so it is a powerful technique. The idea I am toying with is to put a cell disrupter in the recirculation line and pass the reaction through a confined but high energy density zone while the reaction proceeds. So yes it does only affect a small volume but since it is in the recirculation line I can move the entire volume of the fluid through 'the 'zone' First I have to source a surplus disrupter. If only I had some romulan friends.sigh (lol no that comment does not indicate this whole thing is an april fools joke) Joe Mike Weaver wrote: You can buy fairly small ones - they are advertised (or used to be) to clean jewelry. Keith Addison wrote: I think he was talking about a "dip tank" like what is used to clean industrial parts en masse. it relies on complementary ultrasonic frequencies to basically heat and rattle the crud out of things my friend uses them at the printing shop where he works. He does? And it works?? Why doesn't someone sell them to the mainstream press? Or d'you think you'd have to nuke the journalists instead? Best Keith - Original Message - From: "JJJN" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process Joe. What are you talking about when it comes to ultrasonics? Jim Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; You ever considered using ultrasonics to speed up the reaction? You still have to deal with the settling time but I hear the US can make the reaction happen in minutes instead of hours. I'm trying to get my hands on a cell disrupter to put inline on my recirculation tube to test this but haven't had any luck yet. Something to ponder and if any of the chem whiz's out there in e-land care to comment I'm all eyes. Joe Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.co
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
Hello Jason Katie. I checked Cole-Parmer's book 2003/2004 for ultrasonic cleaners, the following items might give you some idea of the prices. A-08848-10 Ultrasonic cleaner w/timer for 15 oz. Priced US $ 147 A-08859-02 Ultrasonic cleaner w/Temp contr. adjust. waveform, 2 3/4 gall Priced US $ 1250 A-08847-00 Ultrasonic cleaner w/Temp contr. heavy-duty, 10 gall Priced US $ 4030 New prices and model you may find at: www.coleparmer.com These are great for pipetes cleaning or jewells as well. Advice, if you are going to use one of these put them inside some noise enclosure, they are loud devices that you might not hear due to the high frecuencies. Regards. Juan -Mensaje original- From: Jason Katie [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: March 30, 2006 2:22 For:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject:Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process I think he was talking about a dip tank like what is used to clean industrial parts en masse. it relies on complementary ultrasonic frequencies to basically heat and rattle the crud out of things my friend uses them at the printing shop where he works. - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process Joe. What are you talking about when it comes to ultrasonics? Jim Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; You ever considered using ultrasonics to speed up the reaction? You still have to deal with the settling time but I hear the US can make the reaction happen in minutes instead of hours. I'm trying to get my hands on a cell disrupter to put inline on my recirculation tube to test this but haven't had any luck yet. Something to ponder and if any of the chem whiz's out there in e-land care to comment I'm all eyes. Joe Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
Well I found THIS which gives a little more info about frequency and power density. It looks like this is done in a tank without agitation and settling happens with higher frequency u-sonics. Hmmm. Joe Joe Street wrote: To answer the question what am I talking about, I heard about it on another biodiesel list and I'm not sure about the exact setup. I expect it is a way of adding energy into the process. I am interested in this as I was in the so called " electrically catalized" alternative process which I as yet have not been able to reproduce. The idea here is that energy added can help speed up a reaction and I think ( chemists blast me if I'm wrong) can tip the balance in favor of one direction in equilibrium type reactions. Actually heating the oil is a form of this type of energy input and we do this already. I have been curious about other ways of coupling energy into the system such as UV radiation, RF radiation and now I hear about ultrasonics. Typically the transducers comercially available are in the 40 Khz frequency range. The little jewelery cleaners are low power and I wouldn't waste my time although they are good for assisting in nano particle production and electro-colloid generation. An industrial power level US generator might be 300-500 watts and often is capable of frequency swept operation. I don't think the frequency is so important from a quantum perspective as it would be in the case of higher frequency stimulation like RF, microwave, or UV radiation where energy absorbtion depends on the bandgap of the material being radiated, but in the case of ultrasonics it is more due to mechanical effects. Microcavitation creates small scale shockwaves which have surprisingly high energy densities though so it is a powerful technique. The idea I am toying with is to put a cell disrupter in the recirculation line and pass the reaction through a confined but high energy density zone while the reaction proceeds. So yes it does only affect a small volume but since it is in the recirculation line I can move the entire volume of the fluid through 'the 'zone' First I have to source a surplus disrupter. If only I had some romulan friends.sigh (lol no that comment does not indicate this whole thing is an april fools joke) Joe Mike Weaver wrote: You can buy fairly small ones - they are advertised (or used to be) to clean jewelry. Keith Addison wrote: I think he was talking about a "dip tank" like what is used to clean industrial parts en masse. it relies on complementary ultrasonic frequencies to basically heat and rattle the crud out of things my friend uses them at the printing shop where he works. He does? And it works?? Why doesn't someone sell them to the mainstream press? Or d'you think you'd have to nuke the journalists instead? Best Keith - Original Message - From: "JJJN" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process Joe. What are you talking about when it comes to ultrasonics? Jim Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; You ever considered using ultrasonics to speed up the reaction? You still have to deal with the settling time but I hear the US can make the reaction happen in minutes instead of hours. I'm trying to get my hands on a cell disrupter to put inline on my recirculation tube to test this but haven't had any luck yet. Something to ponder and if any of the chem whiz's out there in e-land care to comment I'm all eyes. Joe Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Bio
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
its not a newspaper press though. it is a cryovac container factory, and they print their own materials. they use it for the dies and machine parts. soy ink may be the best stuff in the world, but it don't come off for nothin'. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:38 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process I think he was talking about a dip tank like what is used to clean industrial parts en masse. it relies on complementary ultrasonic frequencies to basically heat and rattle the crud out of things my friend uses them at the printing shop where he works. He does? And it works?? Why doesn't someone sell them to the mainstream press? Or d'you think you'd have to nuke the journalists instead? Best Keith - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process Joe. What are you talking about when it comes to ultrasonics? Jim Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; You ever considered using ultrasonics to speed up the reaction? You still have to deal with the settling time but I hear the US can make the reaction happen in minutes instead of hours. I'm trying to get my hands on a cell disrupter to put inline on my recirculation tube to test this but haven't had any luck yet. Something to ponder and if any of the chem whiz's out there in e-land care to comment I'm all eyes. Joe Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.3/296 - Release Date: 3/29/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
Shnazzy stuff, but 28K seems a little close to the human range of hearingto be safe doesnt it? Granted it appears to be dramatically faster and cleaner because a lot of needed energy comes from the U-sonics, but what if the frequency was higher? - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process Well I found THIS which gives a little more info about frequency and power density. It looks like this is done in a tank without agitation and settling happens with higher frequency u-sonics. Hmmm.JoeJoe Street wrote: To answer the question what am I talking about, I heard about it on another biodiesel list and I'm not sure about the exact setup. I expect it is a way of adding energy into the process. I am interested in this as I was in the so called " electrically catalized" alternative process which I as yet have not been able to reproduce. The idea here is that energy added can help speed up a reaction and I think ( chemists blast me if I'm wrong) can tip the balance in favor of one direction in equilibrium type reactions. Actually heating the oil is a form of this type of energy input and we do this already. I have been curious about other ways of coupling energy into the system such as UV radiation, RF radiation and now I hear about ultrasonics. Typically the transducers comercially available are in the 40 Khz frequency range. The little jewelery cleaners are low power and I wouldn't waste my time although they are good for assisting in nano particle production and electro-colloid generation. An industrial power level US generator might be 300-500 watts and often is capable of frequency swept operation. I don't think the frequency is so important from a quantum perspective as it would be in the case of higher frequency stimulation like RF, microwave, or UV radiation where energy absorbtion depends on the bandgap of the material being radiated, but in the case of ultrasonics it is more due to mechanical effects. Microcavitation creates small scale shockwaves which have surprisingly high energy densities though so it is a powerful technique. The idea I am toying with is to put a cell disrupter in the recirculation line and pass the reaction through a confined but high energy density zone while the reaction proceeds. So yes it does only affect a small volume but since it is in the recirculation line I can move the entire volume of the fluid through 'the 'zone' First I have to source a surplus disrupter. If only I had some romulan friends.sigh(lol no that comment does not indicate this whole thing is an april fools joke)JoeMike Weaver wrote: You can buy fairly small ones - they are advertised (or used to be) to clean jewelry. Keith Addison wrote: I think he was talking about a "dip tank" like what is used to clean industrial parts en masse. it relies on complementary ultrasonic frequencies to basically heat and rattle the crud out of things my friend uses them at the printing shop where he works. He does? And it works?? Why doesn't someone sell them to the mainstream press? Or d'you think you'd have to nuke the journalists instead? Best Keith - Original Message - From: "JJJN" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process Joe. What are you talking about when it comes to ultrasonics? Jim Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; You ever considered using ultrasonics to speed up the reaction? You still have to deal with the settling time but I hear the US can make the reaction happen in minutes instead of hours. I'm trying to get my hands on a cell disrupter to put inline on my recirculation tube to test this but haven't had any luck yet. Something to ponder and if any of the chem whiz's out there in e-land care to comment I'm all eyes. Joe Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
Joe, WOW! Great find. I take back what I said in my earlier reply today about being too costly, etc. From the data its looks like the ultrasonic might be producing OH free radicals in the water and thus reducing the amount of added base catalyst required, which in turn is increasing the yield and purity? (at the lower frequency). Also, 600 khz equipment was not around in my day of selling ultrasonic equipment, 75 kHz was the highest frequency around then. Probably the electronics were not fast enough in the 1970's? I notice they are using two different frequencies, one for the reaction (28 khz) and another for the separation stage (600 khz). The patent claims an even wider range of usable frequencies, up to 3,000 khz! Here is the US version of the patent itself: Patent I am not sure that I follow the math on claim #4!?? -Mike McGinness Joe Street wrote: Well I found THIS which gives a little more info about frequency and power density. It looks like this is done in a tank without agitation and settling happens with higher frequency u-sonics. Hmmm. Joe Joe Street wrote: To answer the question what am I talking about, I heard about it on another biodiesel list and I'm not sure about the exact setup. I expect it is a way of adding energy into the process. I am interested in this as I was in the so called electrically catalized alternative process which I as yet have not been able to reproduce. The idea here is that energy added can help speed up a reaction and I think ( chemists blast me if I'm wrong) can tip the balance in favor of one direction in equilibrium type reactions. Actually heating the oil is a form of this type of energy input and we do this already. I have been curious about other ways of coupling energy into the system such as UV radiation, RF radiation and now I hear about ultrasonics. Typically the transducers comercially available are in the 40 Khz frequency range. The little jewelery cleaners are low power and I wouldn't waste my time although they are good for assisting in nano particle production and electro-colloid generation. An industrial power level US generator might be 300-500 watts and often is capable of frequency swept operation. I don't think the frequency is so important from a quantum perspective as it would be in the case of higher frequency stimulation like RF, microwave, or UV radiation where energy absorbtion depends on the bandgap of the material being radiated, but in the case of ultrasonics it is more due to mechanical effects. Microcavitation creates small scale shockwaves which have surprisingly high energy densities though so it is a powerful technique. The idea I am toying with is to put a cell disrupter in the recirculation line and pass the reaction through a confined but high energy density zone while the reaction proceeds. So yes it does only affect a small volume but since it is in the recirculation line I can move the entire volume of the fluid through 'the 'zone' First I have to source a surplus disrupter. If only I had some romulan friends.sigh (lol no that comment does not indicate this whole thing is an april fools joke) Joe Mike Weaver wrote: You can buy fairly small ones - they are advertised (or used to be) to clean jewelry. Keith Addison wrote: I think he was talking about a dip tank like what is used to clean industrial parts en masse. it relies on complementary ultrasonic frequencies to basically heat and rattle the crud out of things my friend uses them at the printing shop where he works. He does? And it works?? Why doesn't someone sell them to the mainstream press? Or d'you think you'd have to nuke the journalists instead? Best Keith - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process Joe. What are you talking about when it comes to ultrasonics? Jim Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; You ever considered using ultrasonics to speed up the reaction? You still have to deal with the settling time but I hear the US can make the reaction happen in minutes instead of hours. I'm trying to get my hands on a cell disrupter to put inline on my recirculation tube to test this but haven't had any luck yet. Something to ponder and if any of the chem whiz's out there in e-land care to comment I'm all eyes. Joe Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
Joe Street wrote: To answer the question what am I talking about, I heard about it on another biodiesel list and I'm not sure about the exact setup. I expect it is a way of adding energy into the process. I am interested in this as I was in the so called electrically catalized alternative process which I as yet have not been able to reproduce. The idea here is that energy added can help speed up a reaction and I think ( chemists blast me if I'm wrong) can tip the balance in favor of one direction in equilibrium type reactions. I do not think it will tip the balance, only speed up reaching equilibrium. Actually heating the oil is a form of this type of energy input and we do this already. I have been curious about other ways of coupling energy into the system such as UV radiation, RF radiation and now I hear about ultrasonics. Typically the transducers comercially available are in the 40 Khz frequency range. The little jewelery cleaners are low power and I wouldn't waste my time although they are good for assisting in nano particle production and electro-colloid generation. The jewelry cleaners are typically 60 Khz. Some commercial jewelry cleaners and lab units like Cole-Palmer lists, though way overpriced (like by 50%), are high enough in power density to do the job if the surface tension is not to high. The issue of best frequency would be debateable. I do recall that all these units do not cavitate the solution until the liquid has been degassed!! So keep that in mind!! An industrial power level US generator might be 300-500 watts and often is capable of frequency swept operation. I don't think the frequency is so important from a quantum perspective as it would be in the case of higher frequency stimulation like RF, microwave, or UV radiation where energy absorbtion depends on the bandgap of the material being radiated, but in the case of ultrasonics it is more due to mechanical effects. Microcavitation creates small scale shockwaves which have surprisingly high energy densities though so it is a powerful technique. This is correct. They create a high frequency wave motion in the liquid that forms tiny gas bubbles at the low pressure end of the wave. The bubbles are then collapsed at the high pressure end of the wave front. This all happens at say 20 to 75 KHz (whatever frequency the generator is designed for). The collapse, or cavitation is said to produce instantaneous temperatures (but on a molecular scale) as high as 5000 degrees (degrees F as I recall). The energy rapidly decays into bulk heat in the solution. The idea I am toying with is to put a cell disrupter in the recirculation line and pass the reaction through a confined but high energy density zone while the reaction proceeds. So yes it does only affect a small volume but since it is in the recirculation line I can move the entire volume of the fluid through 'the 'zone' First I have to source a surplus disrupter. If only I had some romulan friends.sigh (lol no that comment does not indicate this whole thing is an april fools joke) I am sure Quark ( the Feringi ) could have gotten you a great deal on one, LOL. Your comment reminds me of the Feringi Rules of Acquisition. It is a unique piece of humor, still LOL. For instance rule number 28 is: Morality is always defined by those in power! OK, back on topic, I sold and serviced industrial Ultrasonic cleaners in the late 1970's and early 80's. They are great at creating micro mechanical scrubbing action in hard to reach areas that helps speed up and improve cleaning of delicate intricate parts. They also can mix and disperse colloidal material which might help your reaction go faster by dispersing colloidal particles in solution better and faster, but the energy costs and hardware costs, in my opinion, would be way out of proportion with any advantages. I would think that a simple centrifugal pump with high internal shear forces would accomplish the same end results as an ultrasonic unit, and do it faster and at much less cost. Hope this helps. Best Mike McGinness Joe Mike Weaver wrote: You can buy fairly small ones - they are advertised (or used to be) to clean jewelry. Keith Addison wrote: I think he was talking about a dip tank like what is used to clean industrial parts en masse. it relies on complementary ultrasonic frequencies to basically heat and rattle the crud out of things my friend uses them at the printing shop where he works. He does? And it works?? Why doesn't someone sell them to the mainstream press? Or d'you think you'd have to nuke the journalists instead? Best Keith - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process Joe. What are you talking about when it comes to ultrasonics
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
Joe, The link on my last message did not get through (I sent it as text by mistake). Here is the USPTO web site page, again with the full text of the patent: The US Patent Only problem seems to be hardware start up cost, but for larger operations it sounds like it would be very cost effective. -Mike McGinness Joe Street wrote: Well I found THIS which gives a little more info about frequency and power density. It looks like this is done in a tank without agitation and settling happens with higher frequency u-sonics. Hmmm. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
Hey Bob; You ever considered using ultrasonics to speed up the reaction? You still have to deal with the settling time but I hear the US can make the reaction happen in minutes instead of hours. I'm trying to get my hands on a cell disrupter to put inline on my recirculation tube to test this but haven't had any luck yet. Something to ponder and if any of the chem whiz's out there in e-land care to comment I'm all eyes. Joe Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
Howdy Bob, the short answer is that it is never complete. Acid catalyzed esterification is an equilibrium process, there will FFA + methanol -- --- FAME + water always be unreacted fatty acid present. Try this, take a liter of virgin oil, add 1 ml conc. sulfuric acid, and titrate with your standard base. This titration will tell you the minimum titration necessary if all free fatty acids have been converted. then, at the start of an acid state with ffa's present, do an initial titration, and then pull samples and titrate over an hour or two. plot the resultant curve and you will get a sense of the rate of the acid state. I described my two step, process so check the archives. Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
Joe. What are you talking about when it comes to ultrasonics? Jim Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; You ever considered using ultrasonics to speed up the reaction? You still have to deal with the settling time but I hear the US can make the reaction happen in minutes instead of hours. I'm trying to get my hands on a cell disrupter to put inline on my recirculation tube to test this but haven't had any luck yet. Something to ponder and if any of the chem whiz's out there in e-land care to comment I'm all eyes. Joe Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
will heating the oil above 30 degrees celcius have any effect on the process? -- Original message -- From: Bob Carr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
a rough rule of thumb is a ten degree rise in reaction temperature doubles the reaction rate, hence halves the reaction time. When I do the acid/ base method with used oil that titrates to 9 ml KOH ( equivalent to a titration of about 6+ mls NaOH solution) I heat the oil/methanol/H+ to about 60 to 65 degrees for one hour or more, then begin the base stage. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: will heating the oil above 30 degrees celcius have any effect on the process? -- Original message -- From: Bob Carr [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
I think he was talking about a dip tank like what is used to clean industrial parts en masse. it relies on complementary ultrasonic frequencies to basically heat and rattle the crud out of things my friend uses them at the printing shop where he works. - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process Joe. What are you talking about when it comes to ultrasonics? Jim Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; You ever considered using ultrasonics to speed up the reaction? You still have to deal with the settling time but I hear the US can make the reaction happen in minutes instead of hours. I'm trying to get my hands on a cell disrupter to put inline on my recirculation tube to test this but haven't had any luck yet. Something to ponder and if any of the chem whiz's out there in e-land care to comment I'm all eyes. Joe Bob Carr wrote: Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.3/296 - Release Date: 3/29/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Speeding up the acid/base process
Hi all, Time to report on my acid /base progress, and then ask for advice from more experienced list members. I have made several batches of very good Bd from all manner of feedstocks, by following Aleks Kac's foolproof process to the letter. But being the impetuous impatient man that I am, I find the process takes far too long. I want to start experimenting to try and speed up the process, but there is one piece of information that still eludes me. How can you tell if the acid phase is complete? I can't move forward unless I can verify my results. Has anyone on the list devised a test to show that the acid phase is complete? Regards Bob ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
