Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
On 6/17/2010 5:44 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim Chalker wrote: It was a joke! No it wasn't. The tone was light but plaintive, and the words suspect and coordinated effort are terms of accusation, not terms that should be thrown about without a care in a public forum. It seems you haven't had any offlist emails, so all you're complaining about is a mere six emails a day over four days, seven of them from you. Hardly overwhelming. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/17/2010 11:07 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim I see I am still getting new e-mails. I am beginning to suspect this is a coordinated effort to overwhelm me. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, especially as the two latest messages in the discussion are both from you. As the list owner, I know of no emails sent to you other than those sent legitimately onlist, all of which can be checked at the list archives, here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ My initial message introducing you to the list said Please respond onlist, not direct to Jim (he's a list member now). If you are receiving offlist messages that you would rather not be receiving, please let me know (off-list) and I will see what can be done to put a stop to it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/16/2010 6:11 PM, Chris Burck wrote: jim, i posed some questions early on, which i'm glad to see you answered (in part) when responding to jason. it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with. whether it be your economic development budget, or other funding streams which might be under the control of other administrators, but which you could influence in your capacity to coordinate programs. there are almost certainly grant monies which you could bring in as well. not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise) to the cause. i would encourage you, if you haven't already, to explore all of this. you might be surprised by what you can pull together. that said, in my opinion fritz (i think it was fritz) and jason are on the right track. and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro. all of these things require research (i.e. what are the wind, water power, and biomass resources in your area). this is where your community colleges, tecnical schools and so on would play a key role. when it comes to actually put shovels in the ground, so to speak, lots of materials are to be had for next to nothing at your local scrap metal yard or trash dump. i could go on, but the point is, there is much you can do that doesn't hinge entirely on whether or not some outside entity decides to bring their venture, which might or might succed, to your neighborhood. Chris, /it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with/ None of which I know. But we have a state USDA director who is very excited about algae. I'll see how interested he might be. From there I'll go looking. /not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise/ I have been in touch with a VP at AlgaeVenture. My governor's regional director has promised me that the two of us are going up there to meet with them. Be sure I'll bring the matter up for discussion. There is another firm out west with whose president I have also been corresponding. I think either firm might take a project like this under its wings as long as no investment was being sought. (These guys are all looking for money themselves) /and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro/ And let's not forget there are other uses for algae, animal feedstock, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, etc. As for wind, southern Ohio is a very poor place for wind. PV solar is being explored here. We are having trouble getting farmers to offer suitable land for lease for solar farms. Looking at rooftop deployment, limited footprint available. I keep plugging, though I am not a particular fan of PV, even though my senior project in engineering school was on PV and I worked in the semicinductor industry for years. It's just too expensive yet. Scientists and engineers are working on bringing up the efficiency but all their solutions look terribly expensive to me. Still we can hope. I want all of you to know that you have me looking at this from a new
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
Jim Chalker wrote: OK, If you are going to accuse me in this fashion It was a straightforward comment, and I didn't expect you to like it, but I don't see how you can call it an accusation. The terms of accusation were all yours. please remove me from this mailing list! I'm afraid you have to do that yourself. The unsubscribe details are in the headers of every message you receive from the list. You'll need your password, which you were sent when you were subscribed. If you didn't see it or lost it you can have it emailed to you. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Jim On 6/17/2010 5:44 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim Chalker wrote: It was a joke! No it wasn't. The tone was light but plaintive, and the words suspect and coordinated effort are terms of accusation, not terms that should be thrown about without a care in a public forum. It seems you haven't had any offlist emails, so all you're complaining about is a mere six emails a day over four days, seven of them from you. Hardly overwhelming. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/17/2010 11:07 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim I see I am still getting new e-mails. I am beginning to suspect this is a coordinated effort to overwhelm me. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, especially as the two latest messages in the discussion are both from you. As the list owner, I know of no emails sent to you other than those sent legitimately onlist, all of which can be checked at the list archives, here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ My initial message introducing you to the list said Please respond onlist, not direct to Jim (he's a list member now). If you are receiving offlist messages that you would rather not be receiving, please let me know (off-list) and I will see what can be done to put a stop to it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/16/2010 6:11 PM, Chris Burck wrote: jim, i posed some questions early on, which i'm glad to see you answered (in part) when responding to jason. it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with. whether it be your economic development budget, or other funding streams which might be under the control of other administrators, but which you could influence in your capacity to coordinate programs. there are almost certainly grant monies which you could bring in as well. not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise) to the cause. i would encourage you, if you haven't already, to explore all of this. you might be surprised by what you can pull together. that said, in my opinion fritz (i think it was fritz) and jason are on the right track. and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro. all of these things require research (i.e. what are the wind, water power, and biomass resources in your area). this is where your community colleges, tecnical schools and so on would play a key role. when it comes to actually put shovels in the ground, so to speak, lots of materials are to be had for next to nothing at your local scrap metal yard or trash dump. i could go on, but the point is, there is much you can do that doesn't hinge entirely on whether or not some outside entity decides to bring their venture, which might or might succed, to your neighborhood. Chris, /it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with/ None of which I know. But we have a state USDA director who is very excited about algae. I'll see how interested he might be. From there I'll go looking. /not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise/ I have been in touch with a VP at AlgaeVenture. My governor's regional director has promised me that the two of us are going up there to meet with them. Be sure I'll bring the matter up for discussion. There is another firm out west with whose president I have also been corresponding. I think either firm might take a project like this under its wings as long as no investment was being sought. (These guys are all looking for money themselves) /and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro/ And let's not forget there are other uses for algae, animal feedstock, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, etc. As
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
On 6/18/2010 9:22 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim Chalker wrote: OK, If you are going to accuse me in this fashion It was a straightforward comment, and I didn't expect you to like it, but I don't see how you can call it an accusation. The terms of accusation were all yours. please remove me from this mailing list! I'm afraid you have to do that yourself. The unsubscribe details are in the headers of every message you receive from the list. You'll need your password, which you were sent when you were subscribed. If you didn't see it or lost it you can have it emailed to you. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Jim On 6/17/2010 5:44 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim Chalker wrote: It was a joke! No it wasn't. The tone was light but plaintive, and the words suspect and coordinated effort are terms of accusation, not terms that should be thrown about without a care in a public forum. It seems you haven't had any offlist emails, so all you're complaining about is a mere six emails a day over four days, seven of them from you. Hardly overwhelming. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/17/2010 11:07 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim I see I am still getting new e-mails. I am beginning to suspect this is a coordinated effort to overwhelm me. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, especially as the two latest messages in the discussion are both from you. As the list owner, I know of no emails sent to you other than those sent legitimately onlist, all of which can be checked at the list archives, here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ My initial message introducing you to the list said Please respond onlist, not direct to Jim (he's a list member now). If you are receiving offlist messages that you would rather not be receiving, please let me know (off-list) and I will see what can be done to put a stop to it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/16/2010 6:11 PM, Chris Burck wrote: jim, i posed some questions early on, which i'm glad to see you answered (in part) when responding to jason. it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with. whether it be your economic development budget, or other funding streams which might be under the control of other administrators, but which you could influence in your capacity to coordinate programs. there are almost certainly grant monies which you could bring in as well. not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise) to the cause. i would encourage you, if you haven't already, to explore all of this. you might be surprised by what you can pull together. that said, in my opinion fritz (i think it was fritz) and jason are on the right track. and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro. all of these things require research (i.e. what are the wind, water power, and biomass resources in your area). this is where your community colleges, tecnical schools and so on would play a key role. when it comes to actually put shovels in the ground, so to speak, lots of materials are to be had for next to nothing at your local scrap metal yard or trash dump. i could go on, but the point is, there is much you can do that doesn't hinge entirely on whether or not some outside entity decides to bring their venture, which might or might succed, to your neighborhood. Chris, /it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with/ None of which I know. But we have a state USDA director who is very excited about algae. I'll see how interested he might be. From there I'll go looking. /not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise/ I have been in touch with a VP at AlgaeVenture. My governor's regional director has promised me that the two of us are going up there to meet with them. Be sure I'll bring the matter up for discussion. There is another firm out west with whose president I have also been corresponding. I think either firm might
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
Jim Chalker wrote: I told you it was a joke. You came back and called me a liar. It's that simple. No it isn't that simple. I didn't call you a liar. I said it wasn't a joke, and indeed it wasn't, too many loaded terms for it to be a joke. It's right there, below, see for yourself. Are you now going to say I've called you a liar again by not agreeing that it's that simple? That's the second time. I didn't accuse you of anything either, all the accusations were yours. As a self-proclaimed profound lover of the English language you sure are careless with it. And why do you keep raising the ante? Aren't you going to unsubscribe? Or was that just a threat? Strange kind of threat, if so. Go on, all you have to do is hit the button. Come to think of it, you might not even need your password, I forget, never having done it myself. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/18/2010 9:22 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim Chalker wrote: OK, If you are going to accuse me in this fashion It was a straightforward comment, and I didn't expect you to like it, but I don't see how you can call it an accusation. The terms of accusation were all yours. please remove me from this mailing list! I'm afraid you have to do that yourself. The unsubscribe details are in the headers of every message you receive from the list. You'll need your password, which you were sent when you were subscribed. If you didn't see it or lost it you can have it emailed to you. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Jim On 6/17/2010 5:44 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim Chalker wrote: It was a joke! No it wasn't. The tone was light but plaintive, and the words suspect and coordinated effort are terms of accusation, not terms that should be thrown about without a care in a public forum. It seems you haven't had any offlist emails, so all you're complaining about is a mere six emails a day over four days, seven of them from you. Hardly overwhelming. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/17/2010 11:07 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim I see I am still getting new e-mails. I am beginning to suspect this is a coordinated effort to overwhelm me. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, especially as the two latest messages in the discussion are both from you. As the list owner, I know of no emails sent to you other than those sent legitimately onlist, all of which can be checked at the list archives, here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ My initial message introducing you to the list said Please respond onlist, not direct to Jim (he's a list member now). If you are receiving offlist messages that you would rather not be receiving, please let me know (off-list) and I will see what can be done to put a stop to it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/16/2010 6:11 PM, Chris Burck wrote: snip It was a joke! OK, If you are going to accuse me in this fashion please remove me from this mailing list! Jim I told you it was a joke. You came back and called me a liar. It's that simple. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
On 6/18/2010 1:46 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim Chalker wrote: I told you it was a joke. You came back and called me a liar. It's that simple. No it isn't that simple. I didn't call you a liar. I said it wasn't a joke, and indeed it wasn't, too many loaded terms for it to be a joke. It's right there, below, see for yourself. Are you now going to say I've called you a liar again by not agreeing that it's that simple? That's the second time. I didn't accuse you of anything either, all the accusations were yours. As a self-proclaimed profound lover of the English language you sure are careless with it. And why do you keep raising the ante? Aren't you going to unsubscribe? Or was that just a threat? Strange kind of threat, if so. Go on, all you have to do is hit the button. Come to think of it, you might not even need your password, I forget, never having done it myself. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/18/2010 9:22 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim Chalker wrote: OK, If you are going to accuse me in this fashion It was a straightforward comment, and I didn't expect you to like it, but I don't see how you can call it an accusation. The terms of accusation were all yours. please remove me from this mailing list! I'm afraid you have to do that yourself. The unsubscribe details are in the headers of every message you receive from the list. You'll need your password, which you were sent when you were subscribed. If you didn't see it or lost it you can have it emailed to you. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Jim On 6/17/2010 5:44 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim Chalker wrote: It was a joke! No it wasn't. The tone was light but plaintive, and the words suspect and coordinated effort are terms of accusation, not terms that should be thrown about without a care in a public forum. It seems you haven't had any offlist emails, so all you're complaining about is a mere six emails a day over four days, seven of them from you. Hardly overwhelming. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/17/2010 11:07 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim I see I am still getting new e-mails. I am beginning to suspect this is a coordinated effort to overwhelm me. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, especially as the two latest messages in the discussion are both from you. As the list owner, I know of no emails sent to you other than those sent legitimately onlist, all of which can be checked at the list archives, here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ My initial message introducing you to the list said Please respond onlist, not direct to Jim (he's a list member now). If you are receiving offlist messages that you would rather not be receiving, please let me know (off-list) and I will see what can be done to put a stop to it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/16/2010 6:11 PM, Chris Burck wrote: snip It was a joke! OK, If you are going to accuse me in this fashion please remove me from this mailing list! Jim I told you it was a joke. You came back and called me a liar. It's that simple. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Keith I am done talking to you about this. Drop it! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
Jim Chalker wrote: Keith I am done talking to you about this. Drop it! Yessah!! LOL!! We'll see. It depends on you. I suggest you read the List rules, since you obviiously haven't done so, and you've now broken them quite a few times. You're required to read the List rules and to heed them: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg70818.html [Biofuel] List rules For instance, you've simply ignored a lot of things people have said, and asked (no, I'm not talking about me). That's contrary to the List rules, and it's bad Netiquette too - never mind the Net, it's bad etiquette. If someone questions you, don't just ignore them. You should be prepared to substantiate what you say, or to acknowledge it if you can't. (Biofuel list rules) Now you're giving the List owner angry orders. There must be quite a few people here who're surprised you haven't got the boot yet (and failed to remove yourself, having demanded it). Try some decorum, maybe you'll get on a little better. (Or just hit the List-Unsubscribe link in the header.) Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/18/2010 1:46 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim Chalker wrote: I told you it was a joke. You came back and called me a liar. It's that simple. No it isn't that simple. I didn't call you a liar. I said it wasn't a joke, and indeed it wasn't, too many loaded terms for it to be a joke. It's right there, below, see for yourself. Are you now going to say I've called you a liar again by not agreeing that it's that simple? That's the second time. I didn't accuse you of anything either, all the accusations were yours. As a self-proclaimed profound lover of the English language you sure are careless with it. And why do you keep raising the ante? Aren't you going to unsubscribe? Or was that just a threat? Strange kind of threat, if so. Go on, all you have to do is hit the button. Come to think of it, you might not even need your password, I forget, never having done it myself. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/18/2010 9:22 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim Chalker wrote: OK, If you are going to accuse me in this fashion It was a straightforward comment, and I didn't expect you to like it, but I don't see how you can call it an accusation. The terms of accusation were all yours. please remove me from this mailing list! I'm afraid you have to do that yourself. The unsubscribe details are in the headers of every message you receive from the list. You'll need your password, which you were sent when you were subscribed. If you didn't see it or lost it you can have it emailed to you. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Jim On 6/17/2010 5:44 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim Chalker wrote: It was a joke! No it wasn't. The tone was light but plaintive, and the words suspect and coordinated effort are terms of accusation, not terms that should be thrown about without a care in a public forum. It seems you haven't had any offlist emails, so all you're complaining about is a mere six emails a day over four days, seven of them from you. Hardly overwhelming. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/17/2010 11:07 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim I see I am still getting new e-mails. I am beginning to suspect this is a coordinated effort to overwhelm me. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, especially as the two latest messages in the discussion are both from you. As the list owner, I know of no emails sent to you other than those sent legitimately onlist, all of which can be checked at the list archives, here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ My initial message introducing you to the list said Please respond onlist, not direct to Jim (he's a list member now). If you are receiving offlist messages that you would rather not be receiving, please let me know (off-list) and I will see what can be done to put a stop to it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/16/2010 6:11 PM, Chris Burck wrote: snip It was a
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
I'll take a crack at the PV -- I work in this industry and have for a while. Cost wise, it is quite expensive, however it's come down alot in the last few years. When I first got into it in the early 80's, panels cost $10/watt -- not including any of the balance of system. Now, we're seeing turnkey installed systems at around $5/watt here in Colorado. Even 5 years ago, full turnkey costs were running more like $8 to $9/watt in Colorado. Wholesale panel costs have dropped in half in the last two years alone. We're coming up on 5 years into an incentive program here, in which ratepayers pay a 1.6% tax on utility bills, which funds rebates for PV systems, to the tune of approximately 50%. In those same 5 years, we've transitioned to a industry with maybe a dozen one or two person operations doing PV (almost all off-grid), to over 50 companies, at least a dozen of them in the 30 to 50 person size, installing grid-tied PV. And, SMA is building their new inverter manufacturing plant for the US in Denver. Designing an incentive program to work well is pretty hard though... this one works pretty well except for a few issues, but I've seen many that were flops -- no one took advantage of them, the industry didn't grow well to respond to the need, etc... There have been ones that actually cost more to qualify for the incentive than to just not take it, and ones that promoted very poor quality installations and poor customer service by their design. Ones designed without input from the solar industry that's going to be installing it tends to end up that way. I'm not a big fan of solar farms... they take up space, which you have to find, and, they create far fewer jobs per kWh of clean electricity than rooftop residential PV systems. Roofs already exist, and probably about 35% of them are quite well designed for putting on PV. We're currently nowhere near 35% penetration for residential PV, so it'll be a while before lack of roof space becomes an issue. The most PV dense neighborhoods here are probably around 5 to 10% penetration right now, with the vast majority well under 1%. Moving solar away from the load also ignores alot of the benefit of solar, in my mind it has no moving parts (except maybe for a few fans to cool the inverter), so can be easily scaled down to small systems on residences without maintenance requirements you can't put in tiny steam based powerplants... too many safety concerns for the average homeowner, not to mention that efficiency of those plants is much less for small ones than for large ones, whereas PV efficiency is the same for large or small ones. These other technologies (biomass powerplants, etc) are much more suitable to community scale plants, whereas I feel that PV makes more sense to put on individual buildings, offsetting the load right where it occurs (and thus not incurring costs for distribution and transmission). The Utility here is bemoaning the fact that they can't put in a few MW solar farm in southern Colorado because they can't get a new transmission line built... ignoring the fact that there is still enough roof space left in Denver, where the loads primarily are, to do about 10 times the total capacity of PV as the proposed solar farm. Now, there is something that I think makes a heck of lot more sense than PV... solar thermal. It's way more efficient, less costly, and contrary to popular belief, can offset electricity use think of all the electric water heaters and electric baseboards in houses...It's often overlooked as a technology that's been superceeded by PV, but it's not. A $10,000 solar thermal system can offset as much electricity (if replacing an electric hot water heater) as a $25,000 PV system, in about 15% of the roof area too. This really should be the first focus, if looking at solar, not PV. PV is the new sexy one (not sure why everyone thinks it's new though, as my oldest panels are now 27 years old... and still functioning), but not always better. Now, to provide electricity to run air conditioners... yes, PV does better (for now... solar thermal air conditioning is kind of cutting edge, but maybe in 5 or 10 years we can do it directly with solar thermal and do away with the electricity step completely). Z On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Chris Burck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jim, pv has serious limitations, to be sure. but in reality, all forms of energy do. biofuels are the least weather dependent and will give more tangible results, but also require more infrastructure and ongoing activity. the upside to wind, snall hydro, and solar is that once in place, far less inputs are required. the benefits of including them in the mix are that it diversifies your investment, it allows you to get more people involved, and gives those involved a broader, comparative view of the possibilities. solar can be done on the cheap by building the panels yourselves. perhaps you could find several farmers with
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
ok, peebles' website seems to be bugged, i can't access it from my work computer (might want to hit up their sysadmin on that). west union doesn't have a whole lot of information as far as classes, but north adams has their coursebook available. on that note, i suggest; Algebra 2, and either Chemistry, or the Environmental Science class as prerequisites. i think the Chem class would be more appropriate, but the EnvoSci class already has a section on biofuels. Of course if this actually happens, it might be easier to take over the biofuel/ecology section entirely and roll in an advanced chem segment as well (woohoo! upgrade!). Plus, a lot of the accounting and economics classes I see here might reasonably be applied to your goals... the math is necessary, because... well, chemistry is math, no way around it. Interested yet? Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:09:53 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions On 6/16/2010 2:36 AM, Jason Mier wrote: Maybe you're looking at it from the wrong angle. If you're having trouble drawing business, try growing your own. Have you ever considered an advanced credit program for the highschool? Maybe you could work with the University Board and the Ag Extension office to allow a couple of college credits for participating. Most kids I know would jump at the chance to play with chemicals, and transesterfication is a very visible reaction when done properly. You could get the shop classes involved with manufacturing the containment system, the chem classes for the process, if you insist there needs to be any automation, you can get computer classes involved. The Ag department in my old HS has a test plot- if there can be anything like that for you, you can even get them involved. Judging by the state profile of your county, I'm guessing the average combined class size should be about 375. I see you have a tech school as well, very nice.(hint-hint) If you want I can dig through the curricula for all the schools and build a list of prereq's. Make it a senior year project. This may be the first practical idea I have heard. Jim _ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100617/94f8c15e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
On 6/17/2010 4:23 AM, Jason Mier wrote: ok, peebles' website seems to be bugged, i can't access it from my work computer (might want to hit up their sysadmin on that). west union doesn't have a whole lot of information as far as classes, but north adams has their coursebook available. on that note, i suggest; Algebra 2, and either Chemistry, or the Environmental Science class as prerequisites. i think the Chem class would be more appropriate, but the EnvoSci class already has a section on biofuels. Of course if this actually happens, it might be easier to take over the biofuel/ecology section entirely and roll in an advanced chem segment as well (woohoo! upgrade!). Plus, a lot of the accounting and economics classes I see here might reasonably be applied to your goals... the math is necessary, because... well, chemistry is math, no way around it. Interested yet? Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:09:53 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions On 6/16/2010 2:36 AM, Jason Mier wrote: Maybe you're looking at it from the wrong angle. If you're having trouble drawing business, try growing your own. Have you ever considered an advanced credit program for the highschool? Maybe you could work with the University Board and the Ag Extension office to allow a couple of college credits for participating. Most kids I know would jump at the chance to play with chemicals, and transesterfication is a very visible reaction when done properly. You could get the shop classes involved with manufacturing the containment system, the chem classes for the process, if you insist there needs to be any automation, you can get computer classes involved. The Ag department in my old HS has a test plot- if there can be anything like that for you, you can even get them involved. Judging by the state profile of your county, I'm guessing the average combined class size should be about 375. I see you have a tech school as well, very nice.(hint-hint) If you want I can dig through the curricula for all the schools and build a list of prereq's. Make it a senior year project. This may be the first practical idea I have heard. Jim _ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100617/94f8c15e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ I have already begun discussing this idea with th local community college. Thay are interested in partnering with local schools on this. I am going to continue on this. I think it might lead somewhere. Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
On 6/16/2010 6:11 PM, Chris Burck wrote: jim, i posed some questions early on, which i'm glad to see you answered (in part) when responding to jason. it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with. whether it be your economic development budget, or other funding streams which might be under the control of other administrators, but which you could influence in your capacity to coordinate programs. there are almost certainly grant monies which you could bring in as well. not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise) to the cause. i would encourage you, if you haven't already, to explore all of this. you might be surprised by what you can pull together. that said, in my opinion fritz (i think it was fritz) and jason are on the right track. and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro. all of these things require research (i.e. what are the wind, water power, and biomass resources in your area). this is where your community colleges, tecnical schools and so on would play a key role. when it comes to actually put shovels in the ground, so to speak, lots of materials are to be had for next to nothing at your local scrap metal yard or trash dump. i could go on, but the point is, there is much you can do that doesn't hinge entirely on whether or not some outside entity decides to bring their venture, which might or might succed, to your neighborhood. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Chris, /it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with/ None of which I know. But we have a state USDA director who is very excited about algae. I'll see how interested he might be. From there I'll go looking. /not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise/ I have been in touch with a VP at AlgaeVenture. My governor's regional director has promised me that the two of us are going up there to meet with them. Be sure I'll bring the matter up for discussion. There is another firm out west with whose president I have also been corresponding. I think either firm might take a project like this under its wings as long as no investment was being sought. (These guys are all looking for money themselves) /and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro/ And let's not forget there are other uses for algae, animal feedstock, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, etc. As for wind, southern Ohio is a very poor place for wind. PV solar is being explored here. We are having trouble getting farmers to offer suitable land for lease for solar farms. Looking at rooftop deployment, limited footprint available. I keep plugging, though I am not a particular fan of PV, even though my senior project in engineering school was on PV and I worked in the semicinductor industry for years. It's just too expensive yet. Scientists and engineers are working on bringing up the efficiency but all their solutions look terribly expensive to me. Still we can hope. I want all of you to know that you have me looking at this from a new angle. It was flawed thinking to hope that I could attract a business here. This locally focused, locally grown concept sounds much more viable. We could start by educating a core group of local young people, light a fire under them and be ready to step in and help them in any way we can. Then let's see what they can get done. And don't castigate me for focusing too much on algae. It's just that it offers the greatest opportunity for serious learning. I have a broadband deployment meeting to go to (see I actually do have legitimate work to do - Ha). I need to take off. I see I am still getting new e-mails. I am beginning to suspect this is a coordinated effort to overwhelm me. But I appreciate your help, all of you. Jim P.S. Small scale hydro, huh? That might deserve a look. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100617/318028f9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
Jim I see I am still getting new e-mails. I am beginning to suspect this is a coordinated effort to overwhelm me. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, especially as the two latest messages in the discussion are both from you. As the list owner, I know of no emails sent to you other than those sent legitimately onlist, all of which can be checked at the list archives, here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ My initial message introducing you to the list said Please respond onlist, not direct to Jim (he's a list member now). If you are receiving offlist messages that you would rather not be receiving, please let me know (off-list) and I will see what can be done to put a stop to it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/16/2010 6:11 PM, Chris Burck wrote: jim, i posed some questions early on, which i'm glad to see you answered (in part) when responding to jason. it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with. whether it be your economic development budget, or other funding streams which might be under the control of other administrators, but which you could influence in your capacity to coordinate programs. there are almost certainly grant monies which you could bring in as well. not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise) to the cause. i would encourage you, if you haven't already, to explore all of this. you might be surprised by what you can pull together. that said, in my opinion fritz (i think it was fritz) and jason are on the right track. and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro. all of these things require research (i.e. what are the wind, water power, and biomass resources in your area). this is where your community colleges, tecnical schools and so on would play a key role. when it comes to actually put shovels in the ground, so to speak, lots of materials are to be had for next to nothing at your local scrap metal yard or trash dump. i could go on, but the point is, there is much you can do that doesn't hinge entirely on whether or not some outside entity decides to bring their venture, which might or might succed, to your neighborhood. Chris, /it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with/ None of which I know. But we have a state USDA director who is very excited about algae. I'll see how interested he might be. From there I'll go looking. /not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise/ I have been in touch with a VP at AlgaeVenture. My governor's regional director has promised me that the two of us are going up there to meet with them. Be sure I'll bring the matter up for discussion. There is another firm out west with whose president I have also been corresponding. I think either firm might take a project like this under its wings as long as no investment was being sought. (These guys are all looking for money themselves) /and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro/ And let's not forget there are other uses for algae, animal feedstock, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, etc. As for wind, southern Ohio is a very poor place for wind. PV solar is being explored here. We are having trouble getting farmers to offer suitable land for lease for solar farms. Looking at rooftop deployment, limited footprint available. I keep plugging, though I am not a particular fan of PV, even though my senior project in engineering school was on PV and I worked in the semicinductor industry for years. It's just too expensive yet. Scientists and engineers are working on bringing up the efficiency but all their solutions look terribly expensive to me. Still we can hope. I want all of you to know that you have me looking at this from a new angle. It was flawed thinking to hope that I could attract a business here. This locally focused, locally grown concept sounds much more viable. We could start by educating a core group of local young people, light a fire under them and be ready to step in and help them in any way we can. Then let's see what they can get done. And don't castigate me for focusing too much on algae. It's just that it offers the greatest opportunity for serious learning. I have a broadband deployment meeting to go to (see I actually do have legitimate work to do - Ha). I need to take off. I see I am still getting new e-mails. I am beginning to suspect this is a coordinated effort to overwhelm me. But I appreciate your help, all of you. Jim P.S. Small scale hydro, huh? That might deserve a look. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
On 6/17/2010 11:07 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim I see I am still getting new e-mails. I am beginning to suspect this is a coordinated effort to overwhelm me. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, especially as the two latest messages in the discussion are both from you. As the list owner, I know of no emails sent to you other than those sent legitimately onlist, all of which can be checked at the list archives, here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ My initial message introducing you to the list said Please respond onlist, not direct to Jim (he's a list member now). If you are receiving offlist messages that you would rather not be receiving, please let me know (off-list) and I will see what can be done to put a stop to it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/16/2010 6:11 PM, Chris Burck wrote: jim, i posed some questions early on, which i'm glad to see you answered (in part) when responding to jason. it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with. whether it be your economic development budget, or other funding streams which might be under the control of other administrators, but which you could influence in your capacity to coordinate programs. there are almost certainly grant monies which you could bring in as well. not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise) to the cause. i would encourage you, if you haven't already, to explore all of this. you might be surprised by what you can pull together. that said, in my opinion fritz (i think it was fritz) and jason are on the right track. and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro. all of these things require research (i.e. what are the wind, water power, and biomass resources in your area). this is where your community colleges, tecnical schools and so on would play a key role. when it comes to actually put shovels in the ground, so to speak, lots of materials are to be had for next to nothing at your local scrap metal yard or trash dump. i could go on, but the point is, there is much you can do that doesn't hinge entirely on whether or not some outside entity decides to bring their venture, which might or might succed, to your neighborhood. Chris, /it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with/ None of which I know. But we have a state USDA director who is very excited about algae. I'll see how interested he might be. From there I'll go looking. /not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise/ I have been in touch with a VP at AlgaeVenture. My governor's regional director has promised me that the two of us are going up there to meet with them. Be sure I'll bring the matter up for discussion. There is another firm out west with whose president I have also been corresponding. I think either firm might take a project like this under its wings as long as no investment was being sought. (These guys are all looking for money themselves) /and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro/ And let's not forget there are other uses for algae, animal feedstock, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, etc. As for wind, southern Ohio is a very poor place for wind. PV solar is being explored here. We are having trouble getting farmers to offer suitable land for lease for solar farms. Looking at rooftop deployment, limited footprint available. I keep plugging, though I am not a particular fan of PV, even though my senior project in engineering school was on PV and I worked in the semicinductor industry for years. It's just too expensive yet. Scientists and engineers are working on bringing up the efficiency but all their solutions look terribly expensive to me. Still we can hope. I want all of you to know that you have me looking at this from a new angle. It was flawed thinking to hope that I could attract a business here. This locally focused, locally grown concept sounds much more viable. We could start by educating a core group of local young people, light a fire under them and be ready to step in and help them in any way we can. Then let's see what they can get done. And don't castigate me for focusing too much on algae. It's just that it offers the greatest opportunity for serious learning. I have a broadband deployment meeting to go to (see I actually do have legitimate work to do - Ha). I need to take off. I see I am still getting new e-mails. I am beginning to suspect this is a coordinated effort to overwhelm me. But I appreciate your help, all of you. Jim P.S. Small scale hydro, huh? That might
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
Jim Chalker wrote: It was a joke! No it wasn't. The tone was light but plaintive, and the words suspect and coordinated effort are terms of accusation, not terms that should be thrown about without a care in a public forum. It seems you haven't had any offlist emails, so all you're complaining about is a mere six emails a day over four days, seven of them from you. Hardly overwhelming. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/17/2010 11:07 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Jim I see I am still getting new e-mails. I am beginning to suspect this is a coordinated effort to overwhelm me. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, especially as the two latest messages in the discussion are both from you. As the list owner, I know of no emails sent to you other than those sent legitimately onlist, all of which can be checked at the list archives, here: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ My initial message introducing you to the list said Please respond onlist, not direct to Jim (he's a list member now). If you are receiving offlist messages that you would rather not be receiving, please let me know (off-list) and I will see what can be done to put a stop to it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner On 6/16/2010 6:11 PM, Chris Burck wrote: jim, i posed some questions early on, which i'm glad to see you answered (in part) when responding to jason. it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with. whether it be your economic development budget, or other funding streams which might be under the control of other administrators, but which you could influence in your capacity to coordinate programs. there are almost certainly grant monies which you could bring in as well. not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise) to the cause. i would encourage you, if you haven't already, to explore all of this. you might be surprised by what you can pull together. that said, in my opinion fritz (i think it was fritz) and jason are on the right track. and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro. all of these things require research (i.e. what are the wind, water power, and biomass resources in your area). this is where your community colleges, tecnical schools and so on would play a key role. when it comes to actually put shovels in the ground, so to speak, lots of materials are to be had for next to nothing at your local scrap metal yard or trash dump. i could go on, but the point is, there is much you can do that doesn't hinge entirely on whether or not some outside entity decides to bring their venture, which might or might succed, to your neighborhood. Chris, /it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with/ None of which I know. But we have a state USDA director who is very excited about algae. I'll see how interested he might be. From there I'll go looking. /not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise/ I have been in touch with a VP at AlgaeVenture. My governor's regional director has promised me that the two of us are going up there to meet with them. Be sure I'll bring the matter up for discussion. There is another firm out west with whose president I have also been corresponding. I think either firm might take a project like this under its wings as long as no investment was being sought. (These guys are all looking for money themselves) /and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro/ And let's not forget there are other uses for algae, animal feedstock, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, etc. As for wind, southern Ohio is a very poor place for wind. PV solar is being explored here. We are having trouble getting farmers to offer suitable land for lease for solar farms. Looking at rooftop deployment, limited footprint available. I keep plugging, though I am not a particular fan of PV, even though my senior project in engineering school was on PV and I worked in the semicinductor industry for years. It's just too expensive yet. Scientists and engineers are working on bringing up the efficiency but all their solutions look terribly expensive to me. Still we can hope. I want all of you to know that you have me looking at this from a new angle. It was flawed thinking to hope that I could attract a business here. This locally focused, locally grown concept sounds much more viable. We could start by educating a core group of local young people, light a fire
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
Maybe you're looking at it from the wrong angle. If you're having trouble drawing business, try growing your own. Have you ever considered an advanced credit program for the highschool? Maybe you could work with the University Board and the Ag Extension office to allow a couple of college credits for participating. Most kids I know would jump at the chance to play with chemicals, and transesterfication is a very visible reaction when done properly. You could get the shop classes involved with manufacturing the containment system, the chem classes for the process, if you insist there needs to be any automation, you can get computer classes involved. The Ag department in my old HS has a test plot- if there can be anything like that for you, you can even get them involved. Judging by the state profile of your county, I'm guessing the average combined class size should be about 375. I see you have a tech school as well, very nice.(hint-hint) If you want I can dig through the curricula for all the schools and build a list of prereq's. Make it a senior year project. Jason, 1. Virtually nothing in the way of legal restrictions. Public mood is being sculpted (maybe... but toward what? I'm no longer certain myself)) 2. No plans for incentives at this time. May revisit that question if things heat up. 3. May have some influence if someone decides to locate an operation here. To be honest biofuels is starting to look like a flop. I can't find any way to make the numbers work. Yields are too low and prices also. It may be another couple of centuries till this stuff floats (pardon the pun). Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100616/702641ff/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
On 6/16/2010 2:36 AM, Jason Mier wrote: Maybe you're looking at it from the wrong angle. If you're having trouble drawing business, try growing your own. Have you ever considered an advanced credit program for the highschool? Maybe you could work with the University Board and the Ag Extension office to allow a couple of college credits for participating. Most kids I know would jump at the chance to play with chemicals, and transesterfication is a very visible reaction when done properly. You could get the shop classes involved with manufacturing the containment system, the chem classes for the process, if you insist there needs to be any automation, you can get computer classes involved. The Ag department in my old HS has a test plot- if there can be anything like that for you, you can even get them involved. Judging by the state profile of your county, I'm guessing the average combined class size should be about 375. I see you have a tech school as well, very nice.(hint-hint) If you want I can dig through the curricula for all the schools and build a list of prereq's. Make it a senior year project. Jason, 1. Virtually nothing in the way of legal restrictions. Public mood is being sculpted (maybe... but toward what? I'm no longer certain myself)) 2. No plans for incentives at this time. May revisit that question if things heat up. 3. May have some influence if someone decides to locate an operation here. To be honest biofuels is starting to look like a flop. I can't find any way to make the numbers work. Yields are too low and prices also. It may be another couple of centuries till this stuff floats (pardon the pun). Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100616/702641ff/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ This may be the first practical idea I have heard. Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
That's a great quote: To be honest biofuels is starting to look like a flop. In June 2010?? LOL!! Surely it belongs here: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch Nice counterpoint to Pan's Small is beautifuel. Meanwhile, strength to yer arm, Jason. Best Keith On 6/15/2010 3:39 AM, Jason Mier wrote: I have some questions about your project/situation: 1. What are your restrictions? (regulations, budget, public mood, etc.) 2. Is this a County project, or are you only going to be offering grants/incentives? 3. Is your department merely coordinating, or do you have a direct influence such as engineering or contract handling? Jason, 1. Virtually nothing in the way of legal restrictions. Public mood is being sculpted (maybe... but toward what? I'm no longer certain myself)) 2. No plans for incentives at this time. May revisit that question if things heat up. 3. May have some influence if someone decides to locate an operation here. To be honest biofuels is starting to look like a flop. I can't find any way to make the numbers work. Yields are too low and prices also. It may be another couple of centuries till this stuff floats (pardon the pun). Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
On 6/16/2010 11:20 AM, Keith Addison wrote: That's a great quote: To be honest biofuels is starting to look like a flop. In June 2010?? LOL!! Surely it belongs here: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch Nice counterpoint to Pan's Small is beautifuel. Meanwhile, strength to yer arm, Jason. Best Keith On 6/15/2010 3:39 AM, Jason Mier wrote: I have some questions about your project/situation: 1. What are your restrictions? (regulations, budget, public mood, etc.) 2. Is this a County project, or are you only going to be offering grants/incentives? 3. Is your department merely coordinating, or do you have a direct influence such as engineering or contract handling? Jason, 1. Virtually nothing in the way of legal restrictions. Public mood is being sculpted (maybe... but toward what? I'm no longer certain myself)) 2. No plans for incentives at this time. May revisit that question if things heat up. 3. May have some influence if someone decides to locate an operation here. To be honest biofuels is starting to look like a flop. I can't find any way to make the numbers work. Yields are too low and prices also. It may be another couple of centuries till this stuff floats (pardon the pun). Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Really! I kind of thought the couple of centuries quote was better. Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
Really! I kind of thought the couple of centuries quote was better. Naah, that's just whimsical/sarcastic. The other one was genuine. This one's quite good though: This may be the first practical idea I have heard. Plenty of practical ideas have been offered. So what's non-negotiable? Central control? Best Keith Jim On 6/16/2010 11:20 AM, Keith Addison wrote: That's a great quote: To be honest biofuels is starting to look like a flop. In June 2010?? LOL!! Surely it belongs here: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch Nice counterpoint to Pan's Small is beautifuel. Meanwhile, strength to yer arm, Jason. Best Keith On 6/15/2010 3:39 AM, Jason Mier wrote: I have some questions about your project/situation: 1. What are your restrictions? (regulations, budget, public mood, etc.) 2. Is this a County project, or are you only going to be offering grants/incentives? 3. Is your department merely coordinating, or do you have a direct influence such as engineering or contract handling? Jason, 1. Virtually nothing in the way of legal restrictions. Public mood is being sculpted (maybe... but toward what? I'm no longer certain myself)) 2. No plans for incentives at this time. May revisit that question if things heat up. 3. May have some influence if someone decides to locate an operation here. To be honest biofuels is starting to look like a flop. I can't find any way to make the numbers work. Yields are too low and prices also. It may be another couple of centuries till this stuff floats (pardon the pun). Jim Really! I kind of thought the couple of centuries quote was better. Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
Actually the couple of centuries was not intended to come off as sarcastic. At some point fossil fuels are going to become exceedingly costly as supplies dwindle. Peak Oil in a couple of centuries? Well, that's a new angle on it. (For instance, check the list archives for discussion on Confessions of an 'ex' Peak Oil believer, from April 2008.) That might create a natural market for biofuels instead of the synthetic ones we try to create through legislation, regulation, and treaties. I was being genuine. You do seem genuinely dead-set against seeing that there is already a natural market for biofuels and has been for some time, that's it's considerable, it's growing and spreading fast, and that it's not instead of synthetic markets anybody tries to create through legislation, regulation, and treaties, nor even in spite of them. But this natural market is local, and it seems you think anything local is not practical, although what's been emerging for some time now, rather emphatically, and what some people have always known, is that, with few exceptions, if it's not local it probably won't work well, if at all. You also don't seem to see the close parallels with food production, though it's been pointed out. For at least six years now there's been a massive worldwide swing to local food production, and, like local biofuels producers and users, the local food growers and consumers simply disregard the established industrial market, which, by contrast, has been forced to take notice. Biofuellers very largely ignore both fossil fuels and industrial biofuels, ie Big Soy and Big Corn, both of which are heavily dependent on fossil fuels inputs anyway, and not only that, the local brew is usually much better quality. As with the food (naturally). I think this was a pertinent question: Plenty of practical ideas have been offered. So what's non-negotiable? Central control? I notice you didn't answer it. But let's quit beating this horse. We'll see. Meanwhile, please don't let me deter you from your discussion with Jason. Best Keith Jim On 6/16/2010 12:37 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Really! I kind of thought the couple of centuries quote was better. Naah, that's just whimsical/sarcastic. The other one was genuine. This one's quite good though: This may be the first practical idea I have heard. Plenty of practical ideas have been offered. So what's non-negotiable? Central control? Best Keith Jim On 6/16/2010 11:20 AM, Keith Addison wrote: That's a great quote: To be honest biofuels is starting to look like a flop. In June 2010?? LOL!! Surely it belongs here: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch Nice counterpoint to Pan's Small is beautifuel. Meanwhile, strength to yer arm, Jason. Best Keith On 6/15/2010 3:39 AM, Jason Mier wrote: I have some questions about your project/situation: 1. What are your restrictions? (regulations, budget, public mood, etc.) 2. Is this a County project, or are you only going to be offering grants/incentives? 3. Is your department merely coordinating, or do you have a direct influence such as engineering or contract handling? Jason, 1. Virtually nothing in the way of legal restrictions. Public mood is being sculpted (maybe... but toward what? I'm no longer certain myself)) 2. No plans for incentives at this time. May revisit that question if things heat up. 3. May have some influence if someone decides to locate an operation here. To be honest biofuels is starting to look like a flop. I can't find any way to make the numbers work. Yields are too low and prices also. It may be another couple of centuries till this stuff floats (pardon the pun). Jim Really! I kind of thought the couple of centuries quote was better. Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] To answer your questions
jim, i posed some questions early on, which i'm glad to see you answered (in part) when responding to jason. it would still help to know what sort of funds you have to work with. whether it be your economic development budget, or other funding streams which might be under the control of other administrators, but which you could influence in your capacity to coordinate programs. there are almost certainly grant monies which you could bring in as well. not to mention existing local business which might be convinced to donate money or resources (materials, transportation, expertise) to the cause. i would encourage you, if you haven't already, to explore all of this. you might be surprised by what you can pull together. that said, in my opinion fritz (i think it was fritz) and jason are on the right track. and i wouldn't stop at biofuels. wind, solar, even small scale hydro. all of these things require research (i.e. what are the wind, water power, and biomass resources in your area). this is where your community colleges, tecnical schools and so on would play a key role. when it comes to actually put shovels in the ground, so to speak, lots of materials are to be had for next to nothing at your local scrap metal yard or trash dump. i could go on, but the point is, there is much you can do that doesn't hinge entirely on whether or not some outside entity decides to bring their venture, which might or might succed, to your neighborhood. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] To answer your questions
On 6/15/2010 3:39 AM, Jason Mier wrote: I have some questions about your project/situation: 1. What are your restrictions? (regulations, budget, public mood, etc.) 2. Is this a County project, or are you only going to be offering grants/incentives? 3. Is your department merely coordinating, or do you have a direct influence such as engineering or contract handling? _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccountocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20100615/2bd7a51e/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Jason, 1. Virtually nothing in the way of legal restrictions. Public mood is being sculpted (maybe... but toward what? I'm no longer certain myself)) 2. No plans for incentives at this time. May revisit that question if things heat up. 3. May have some influence if someone decides to locate an operation here. To be honest biofuels is starting to look like a flop. I can't find any way to make the numbers work. Yields are too low and prices also. It may be another couple of centuries till this stuff floats (pardon the pun). Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
